Greetings to you. You absolute beauty. This is the Therapy Natters podcast series. The podcast series where myself, Richard Nicholls and fellow psychotherapist Fiona Biddle sit down and natter about something therapy related that hopefully you want to hear us natter about. It's coming up to New Year. We are recording this just before Christmas, aren't we? Obviously. But this is gonna go out just after Christmas, in between that weird week where no one really knows what day it is.
Well, hey, it's Wednesday cuz that's when this comes out. I hope you're doing well everybody. How are you Fiona, at the minute cuz it's not, you know, you know we're in a time warp at the minute, aren't we?
It's a funny thing, isn't it, that before Christmas it feels like Christmas is coming. It's coming, and then, it's taking ages to get here and it's such a big thing. And then it's, oh, it's gone. And yeah, then you've got, oh, but then there's this new year thing coming up and we've got to deal with that bit and then get back to life. It's very strange, isn't it? That how the, the thing works, that it's all together in one, one time for us in our culture.
Many people will say, on social media today, I don't even know what day it is today. Have we gotta put the bins out. I dunno what day it is. And yeah, it's because our routine has changed and when routines change, when something that's normally as it has been for as long as you can remember is now different, the brain gets thrown into a skip and sort of sits still and goes I don't know what's going on. Everything feels wrong .
And I know Christmas isn't for some people, for a lot of people, to be honest. It could be quite, quite triggering for a lot, especially if as we're gonna talk about today, if somebody close to you has, has died in the year, this is the first Christmas without them, and I've had clients talk about that over the years. This time of year, and they know it's coming. They're like, well, it's gonna be Christmas very, very soon.
And they'll say, you know, this is the first Christmas without my husband, wife, mum, dad, son, daughter. And every routine that you've ever had has been upended. And they need to do what's right for them. And sometimes it is create a new routine. The old routine is gonna constantly hurt. Time for a new routine, time for some new traditions. And maybe in the future we can bring back some of the old traditions and we can remember those people that have, passed and it will still hurt.
But the love will be overshadowing it rather than the grief overshadowing the love. But for that first Christmas, you gotta remember, it's that first Christmas. But the good thing is you only get one of those. Next time, it'll be the second Christmas and it'll be different. And hopefully we'll have grown a bit since then.
There is that phrase that people often use, not just Christmas, but that's where we are. So Christmas will never be the same again, and well, that's the case, but it can change into something good again, but different.
When somebody, we love dies and they say Things will never be the same again. No, they won't. No, they won't be the same. And that's not easy to accept, but it's okay. It's okay that things won't be the same again. It's not something you'd wish for because when somebody says, oh, they're in a better place now. And please, if you know somebody who's going through something, don't say that. Cuz you don't. Yeah, there is a better place, for them it's here alive. That's the better place.
And it just means that you're not getting it. When somebody says things like that, maybe they are, but we've gotta remember that not everybody's spiritual or religious at all or has any belief in an afterlife. In fact, there was a, a study done a a year or so ago, and it's only just been published actually cause they were sorting out the findings and it was I think 51%. No belief in an afterlife. No belief in something supernatural. And 49% did.
So there's a lot of people out there who, if you were to say, well, here's my beliefs, have them, it's not gonna help them.
that's what I was just about to say. if you're going to say, well, whatever you're gonna say really to somebody who's lost a loved one, it's work from within their belief system, that's a better way to do it.
Yeah. And this topic is prompted by a listener Kate, who wrote in and asked Have you done any podcasts on grief? My dad had Parkinson's and died early October. I am having counseling, but I don't feel like I'm able to do anything, enjoy anything or see a future. Your Patreon podcast about anhedonia really resonated with me. I've not been able to work and I've felt guilty about this. I just want time to pass. Thank you for all your podcasts and hypnosis tracks.
I've been listening a few years now. I'm loving Therapy Natters too. Well, thank you Kate, and I'm sorry that your Dad died in October and it's painful. And I think with that pain you have to recognize it's there because you loved him. If there wasn't somebody in your life that you loved, you wouldn't be feeling the grief. It's a normal thing to feel.
And like I always say nothing's a problem unless it causes problems, but sometimes it causes problems cuz we want to hold onto the love that we had for somebody. And Kate, if you wanna hold onto the love that you had for your dad. Hold it. And yes, it's painful and you're gonna feel it, but like I say, this is gonna be the first Christmas.
Next year it's gonna be a different Christmas, and I dunno how you're gonna feel then, but it's likely that the reminders of your dad aren't gonna hurt quite so much, the grief will still be the same. people often talk about how grief diminishes over time, and I I don't find that to be the case. It's not that the grief diminishes, it's us that sort of grow around the grief. Sometimes it'll knock us on our backside, but over time it just gets easier to get back up again.
There's a sort of a linguistic difference here, I think as well, isn't there? You know, the, the experience of the grief will change. The intensity is likely to change. But there will still be the grief, that's a thing. But it's how much of the time, how strongly it's felt, those things will change over time. And it seems like Kate's a aware of that in that she said, I want the time to pass. Because she sort of knows that that's what's needed. You know, the old phrase, you know, time heals.
Well, it sort of does, but that's also a bit trite. But I would like to say, Kate, it's, this is not very long
Yeah.
of October. That's not long. So be kind to yourself please. And yeah, recognize that's, that's not wrong. If other people are not understanding that, and that could be part of what you're saying. I don't know. You didn't say it, so I'm not sure, but I'm just imagining that it might be that either people are saying it or you think they might be thinking it, that, gosh, you should be all right by now,
Yeah, Christmas is supposed to be a happy time. Will you put a smile on your face?
That better place idea. Kate could quite well have heard that because he will have been suffering, won't he,
Hmm.
to die of Parkinson's. He will have been, he will have been suffering. How he coped with that? We've no idea, but it's quite likely people are saying that and maybe Kate is finding that unhelpful.
There's likely a mixed bag of emotions. And obviously Kate, you know, you're not our client. You know, we don't, we don't know exactly what you're going through cause this is something everybody needs to bear in mind. Everybody experiences everything differently. They experience grief differently. They experience depression differently, anxiety differently. Everybody's got their own phenomenological view. Everybody's got their own perspectives. No. So don't say, oh, I know how you feel.
No you don't. You think you do and you've got a rough idea cuz you've been through something similar maybe, but you don't actually know how somebody feels ever. It can be quite painful to hear it, but there will be a mixed bag of emotions, I'm quite sure. No, I'm not quite sure. I don't know. I have to practice what I preach here. I don't know what you're going through, Kate, but for some people
it is likely that there are a mixed bag of emotions because most people in most circumstances have a mixed bag of emotions.
even, even relief sometimes, And then the guilt that comes from that, and then the sadness and then the, I hate myself and I hate the world. All these things that go round and round and round and there's no, there's no order, there's no formula of how you experience this sort of thing. I know Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who's famous for her change work, you know, helping people deal with change. And she did some work this back in the sixties with end of life care.
So she'd be familiar with, with Parkinson's. I, I'm not sure if she's still alive. Elizabeth Kubler Ross. She was, she wrote a lot of her books in the sixties, so was a while ago, but she was the one that came up with the DABDA process of denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and then acceptance. But, what I found in all of the people I've ever met going through grief, they're not in that order. They're really not.
They might start with denial, but that will crop up again later on after anger sometimes. So there's not DABDA it can be if we're honest. It's all over the place. Oo.
Oh, you could , you could come up with your own version with the
With a Yabadabadoo. It's not
Oh, yeah. But yeah. Possibly yelling instead of denial. Yeah.
yeah, I think I'll put a better spin on it.
I think she, she died in 2004, by the way. I just checked.
Rest in Peace Elizabeth Kubler Ross
I like a linear setup. I feel comfortable with linear things. I'm not somebody who does Mind Maps, for example. I like lists, other people don't, but I do even still recognize that most processes aren't linear, and this one certainly isn't. But it's a framework that can lead to, I mean, the final one being acceptance. It can lead to an acceptance that I'm not at acceptance.
And that it's okay to have any of the others, and it doesn't matter if they aren't in the right order or if you go back to one and it cycles, jumps around all over the place. That's okay. But I think to have some sort of framework to say, actually this is okay to feel angry, and you might feel angry at all sorts of people. You might feel angry at the person who's died. You might feel angry at people who were caring for them and didn't save them.
There can be an awful lot of irrational anger, but irrational anger's okay as well, sometimes. It's about recognizing and allowing it and again, being kind to yourself about what you're experiencing.
Being kind to yourself, I think that's an important one.
Yeah.
Through all of this. And that might mean keeping your boundaries. Actually saying to other people, friends other family who are going through something similar but different. Because of phenomenology. Everybody's going through something different. You might have to say, I don't want to talk right now and I don't want to go to this event and I don't want to celebrate New Year's Eve. I don't wanna sing Auld Lang Syne. Oh, for old acquaintance be forgot. F off. I don't want to do that.
And if you don't wanna do that, don't do that. Keep your shape, be you. There are exceptions, but only you know that. You might deep down know well, actually being around people, is gonna help me, it's gonna support me. Well, only if you're around helpful and supporting people, do bear that in mind. But you might wanna sit and cry and keep yourself to yourself. Do that if you want. And don't let somebody say, Oh no, but you need to come. It'll be good for you.
You don't know that and they don't know that. Do what's right for you. And like we say, this is very new. This is really quite raw and you're talking to a counselor about this. Hopefully a bereavement counselor or a counselor you've already seen that knows you well and you've got a good relationship with.
Who can work with, bereavement, because bereavement counseling is slightly different to person-centered counseling and certainly than psychoanalysis unless it's stuck a year or two, or five or 20 down the line, then yeah, there's other work that probably needs to be done, but when it's this raw
This, this early and Yeah, I mean, I, I, I was just thinking then, I, I hope that your counselor isn't trying to fix it because this is okay. You're not stuck. I mean, you could be theoretically if you were still, cuz go back to that
in denial potentially. Yeah.
that denial phase. Most people will have if even if they hadn't had it on a grief situation or they'll have had some sort of shock or situation where they wake up in the morning and go, oh God, yes, that happened, didn't it? And that split second in the morning sort of forgotten about it. You know, that that can take some time to get through so that it's well, again, it's an accepted that you're not going back to, oh my God, that happened. That phase, if you get stuck in that would be a problem.
And any of them, if you get stuck in, and a way that the framework, I think is quite useful of a recognizing a stuckness.
Mm-hmm.
If you are five years down the line and still really depressed about a loss, then that might suggest that some work needs to be done to unstick you.
Because it might be more than just this one bereavement that is causing it to be stuck. It could be a whole life of attachment stuff.
Bereavements vary in their intensity. I mean, I lost somebody who I was close to just last week, but the intensity is not there because she was very old. She hadn't been with it for some time and, really I'd already done the grieving. So that's not going to be something that sticks around because I'd already done it. To say that that bereavement is the same as, I don't even really want to go there to name it, but let's just say somebody losing a child, let's just go maybe that far.
That's completely different. It's the same word, but it's completely different experience
Yeah. You're also grieving for what could have been, should have been in in a multiverse if they really do exist. The one where they're still alive, you're grieving for that. Grieving for their 18th birthday, 21st birthday, you're grieving for all of that potential. It's the potential and there's no fix for that. There really isn't.
But still, you know, five years down the line to be depressed about it, you would still be feeling an awful lot about it, but maybe it would've, been able to move out of that stage. that's sort of what I'm getting at. I think it's important to recognize that they do vary. The circumstances vary as well. You know, if it's a peaceful death as opposed to a violent one, whether you said goodbye, whether you were in a state of conflict with the person. So, so many things affect the grief process.
And each of us needs to be able to recognize the impact of all the factors. And be kind.
I'm not sure there were any tools as such for somebody in this stage. Maybe, maybe things like writing letters that can be quite useful, keeping them, you know, talking about them. And with it being New Year's Eve soon, that's, that's doable, if you've got an outdoor fire pit, go and sit around that. Write a letter and then burn it. Let the smoke disappear off and away. Send messages. You do what's right for you. You might wanna keep the letter. Might wanna send it to your therapist.
You might wanna burn it, shred it, eat it, you know, do what you like. But I think it would be good, you can even send an email, send a text message to their phone if they had one. People do that and it's helpful. They know they're not gonna get a message back, but it's quite nice to send it and see it go Blooom. There. I'm telling them how I feel. I'm telling them that I miss them and that's sad. But it's healing as well. Because we don't want to lose who they were.
Overcoming grief doesn't mean letting go of the love that you had for somebody. And want everybody to recognize that. You can still love somebody, and you can grieve for that missing love that you don't easily feel cuz it's one way. You don't get it back. But you can still love them, still have them dear to you. You can still talk to a picture on the mantle piece or whatever needs to be done.
You can still send 'em text messages or write them letters and you can talk about them even if you talk over the same things over and over again. Often, especially at this stage for, for Kate or anybody that's lost somebody quite recently, they might wanna talk about how they died over and over and over and over again. What people don't realize is that that can be healing because their brain is, is not re-experiencing it, it, or reliving it.
I mean, can be, and, and that's something to, to investigate. But often it's learning that it's the past and every time somebody talks about it, it goes down 0.000 1% of pain. And that's not much, obviously. So they keep talking, keep talking, keep talking until the brain goes, oh, okay. I get it. it. It is the past and it happened, and I can accept that. But they might wanna talk about. And everything that reminds you of them.
It can be very comforting and very nice to do. What would so and so have said in this situation? Oh, wouldn't they have laughed at this? And, oh, do you remember when? And, oh, this football team, they, they really liked this player. You know, those sorts of things can be really nice and comforting.
And this time of year, I know it's the first time for Kate that christmas and New Year have come around feeling this way. But you can still talk about him now. You can talk about him and say, well, this is what he liked to do. Do you remember when? When I was, when I was 15 or whatever? You know, you can do that. It isn't gonna make you feel more grief in doing that. It's not gonna make you wallow in self-pity by talking about them. Talk about them, of course, if you don't want to.
Don't, if it is too painful, because actually this isn't healing, I don't want to talk about them, then don't. Keep your boundaries. Even if somebody says, Oh, let it out, you can't bottle it up. It'll, it'll make things worse. You do it your way.
Exactly. Each person's different on that front and it so many people fear talking to somebody who's been bereaved cause I don't know what to say scenario. And I know I've been there with people. I don't know what to say. So I usually say, I don't know what to say.
Yep.
let the person guide you if they sort of clam up. And start talking about the weather. Then let that be the guide. If they say, oh, I just really like to talk about him but I just don't really get the chance. Then go with it.
Yeah. Be in their frame of reference.
Yeah. And say you dunno what their frame of reference is. It's often a useful tactic in conversation,
Yeah cuz it passes it back to them and then they can direct it. Even if, like you say, they don't want to talk and you don't know what to say to them. Then you say that, of course. You say, I dunno what to say. I wish I could help. Do you want to talk about it? And if they say, No, not right now, cuz we're in Boots returning this gift, you know. Oh yeah, that's fair I'll see you next week. There's a time and a place for it.
And if they say Not right now, but if you're free on Friday It'd be nice to pop round. I'll bring some Hobnobs, Let's sit down pot of tea, packet of hobnobs. Nothing better if you ask me. Unless of course your pre-diabetic. In which case, lay off the hobnobs for goodness sake, will you? And that's my defense mechanism. How do I make light of such a difficult situation? Even therapists will go, I dunno what to say. How can I release the tension here?
So goodness knows what the person you meet in Boots is gonna be like.
that's what humor is for,
Yeah, it's a good defense mechanism. One of my favourites.
It's a defence mechanism, it's to release tension. It's what we do when we feel under threat. laughter is a threat response, so it's no surprise. We've talked about that in the past about black humor in one of our episodes. So it is no surprise that humor tends to go along with these things. People can laugh at funerals, people will tell funny little stories at funerals, and it's okay. Well, again. That's my viewpoint. There will be other people who might be offended by it,
Yeah. Yeah, there might. be. But you can laugh one minute and cry the next. And like we say, that's okay. You can laugh at something that happened that they did when they were alive, and then you can remember that nothing like that is ever gonna happen again. Not quite like that. Not with them anyway. And it'll make you sad then you cry.
At my, aunt in-law's funeral, her favorite joke was the Chinese dentist appointment at Two 30. and her funeral was at two 30. And so we had, we had a nice little giggle about that, so we didn't choose the time, we were just allocated the time. But we, we had a, a little chuckle about that. It was nice.
Her Chinese dentist did not find it funny.
This is true. It's a, it is a joke from a long time ago, but it probably is still in crackers, somewhere
Oh, I hope not. Oh my God, no. Oh, there's lots of reasons why that should not be in a cracker But that's not my decision to make. It's not up to me whether that's inappropriate or not. As with everything, it's up to the, the person it's about. And if it's inappropriate for you to talk about the person that died to laugh about what they did, then don't. But if it feels right, then do it. It's fine. It really is. There are no rules when it comes to grieving other than one.
Which is there are no rules. That's the only rule. Do it your way and yeah, if five years down the line things don't feel any different at all, it might well be worth exploring how that got so stuck and the meaning behind his passing to you, unconsciously. My, dad died 10 years ago. and six weeks. Cause it was November. I know I made a podcast episode at the time. So long-term listeners may well remember that my dad died. Cause I did make a podcast episode on the day.
How I held it together, I don't know. Yeah, it's been 10 years. My brain sometimes forgets that he died. I think I maybe cuz I knew I was gonna be talking about this today. Actually, I dreamt about my dad last night and his dog. That died back in 1993, something like that, his favorite dog. One of the few times I saw my dad cry, which is good that he could, but sad that that's probably one of the only times that I did, because that's odd but hey.
Yeah. And yeah, I dreamt about those two last night because my brain was playing over that that person exists and I knew today, this morning I was gonna be talking about this. So made me dream about it. That's what the brain does and Kate and everybody going through something similar, you're going to. You absolutely will, cuz there's gonna be a part of your brain that doesn't know that they're not around anymore. Because they're still there in your brain. They're still there in your heart.
And it'll come out.
Still part of you. Yeah. I know that whenever I dream about my mother, she died three years ago. Whenever I dream of my mother, she has dark hair cuz she was very dark. I mean, I'm blonde. She was very dark. Nobody ever thought that we looked alike because of her hair. Although she then she didn't want to go gray, so she went blonde instead. Soon as she went blonde, people started noticing we looked alike. And I sometimes look in the mirror and see her, which is very strange.
But no, when I dream about her, she's back in the dark haired days. I never see her in her blonde days, which would've been about the last 20 years of her life.
Hmm.
So I do find that quite interesting that those deeper levels of my mind have the mother that I had when I was young.
sometimes something will pop into my head and I'll think I'll tell my dad that, no you won't. Or I can do, but not in the traditional way. Maybe I write a letter and set fire to it on New Year's Eve. difficult topic.
the intent for me of this episode is what Richard's just said there of do it your way and that it's okay. That's really what I want to help people just to go. Oh yeah. And that really is pretty much all that we can do. Think it is probably worth just saying that it's not just about people that we lose. It can be animals and people don't have to die in order to, yeah, people don't have to die in order to lose them.
You can have relationship breakups, friends that you fall out with people could just go and live somewhere else that you have all the, oh, we'll keep in touch and then it doesn't happen. And, you know, those sorts of things. You can have grief over lost objects, lost experiences. Ways of being all sorts of losses that you can have. So the process is much the same.
it's especially difficult if it is somebody that's still alive that you've lost because they're there on your social media feeds sometimes. Block those people so that you don't see their updates, there's a time and a place to know that they're still there, because then there's the extra grief of what could have been. Not so easy to get to the acceptance stage for want of a better phrase, and get stuck in the denial.
Really, especially at the very beginning of a relationship breakup or a, a divorce. Denial is where people tend to get stuck. No, this, this isn't happening. This isn't happening. We're not splitting up. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They can get stuck there for months and it's gotta be a two-way street and that's so painful. So painful to go through. To end up accepting Yeah, this is how it is. And, that's something for you to experience your way.
Well definitely urge people to talk about it. And the meaning behind it. what's the meaning behind that loss? Do you ever the repair shop on BBC Fiona?
Do you know The Repair Shop started recording on my sky box on its own this week?
That's creepy.
Yeah, I didn't
It's a sweet show. I like it.
Yes, yes. It's one of those ones that I sort of watch little bits of occasionally. I'd love them to do the toy box that my grandfather made for me. That's sitting in my shed, but it's just a box,
there's not much to repair. Just a box. When somebody brings in a box and it's just a box means nothing, and then they tidy it up, replace any leather on the cushion or whatever it it is, and it looks amazing. however long later, lift the cloth up, display it, and go, TA-da. And the person burst into tears because it means something.
Hmm.
It's just a box. It's nothing to most people. It's nothing to everybody else. It's nothing to nearly 8 billion people, but for you, it means something. And that's worth exploring.
the repair shop fascinating in the way that it shows how much objects can mean to people and the connections to others. I've got a few of my grandfathers, but it's a little table I have sitting next to me here. Was his smoking table and I've painted it and put glittery little stones along the top, so it's lovely and I put my things on it. My tea or wine
It's all coming out now. Happy New Year,
Well, I haven't got wine right now, but when I do, it'll be on
Well, it's nearly 11 o'clock. We record this on a Friday morning, so yeah, it's almost 11 o'clock. Fiona, you'll be able to crack open the wine. Oh, you got a meeting, haven't you?
I've got all sorts of meetings today. Yes, this is not, this is not the time for wine, but later.
yes, of course. I guess we'd better love them and leave them. Fiona, there's a lot of podcast series out there, specifically about grief. Certainly put a little search into the search function of your podcast app and you'll see so many different, whether they're therapists or it's people going through their own stories or somebody that's got a story to tell and then they're interviewing other people about their stories. Cariad Lloyd, she does a podcast called Grief Cast on that won an award.
I think it's won a couple of awards, I think possibly. That's really nice. It's really sweet. It, it's, it's good to get your head around the fact that, okay, I'm not alone in feeling these sorts of things. It's okay to feel this. It's normal. It's okay. That can be quite useful. It really, really can.
it's okay. It's yours. Your way of doing it, and be kind to yourself. That's what I'd say.
Now, I'm a cheery guy, so I do try to put a positive spin on everything. And yes, like, like a lot of times therapy and talking about the things that get brought up in therapy can be a little sad, and I hope we can, we can do this in a respectful way that finds a, a balance between too cheery but not cheery enough. I think I, I try to sit there even though I've been labeled as annoyingly cheerful multiple times. Right. Let's leave them to it. Fiona Have a super new year.
Yeah. Happy New Year
happy New Year. We'll be back next week and if you've got any questions or topic ideas, you know where to find us. There's a link in the show notes, so we will speak to you next week. Take care folks.
Bye.