Good day, podcast fans! It's another episode of Therapy Natters! Half an hour of psychotherapy nattering with myself, Richard Nicholls, and co host Fiona Biddle. If you've got a question about psychotherapy, we've probably got an answer. And maybe a 30 minute tangent into something slightly related that makes a useful metaphor, I don't know. Watcha Fiona, how you doing?
Hi, I'm fine, thank you. And yes, tangents, we do like a good tangent, but we tend to bring it back to what we were asked.
Well, if we don't, I edit it out. I mean, I'm quite a tangential person, if I'm honest, and that, I mean, a skill is something that you've been deliberately practicing over and over again until it becomes natural, and... I've been doing that for all of my life. Because I'm quite tangential. Somebody will say something, and it will remind me of something else.
I'll change the subject and then weave it back in again to what they were talking about when I realized, Oh, I've changed the subject and turned it into some really random metaphor or something from moving house to ending a relationship and bring it back on track. I've been doing that outside of the therapy room for decades. And that's just me. I'm a bit quirky. But it pays off, I think, I hope.
Yes, I mean, I
say you like me.
Who are you talking to? Me or the audience?
Anybody, I just want to be loved.
Ah, we all, we all love you, Richard. But tangents, I mean, doesn't everybody go off on tangents? I think it's a very normal human trait.
Freud was one of the first to start talking about what we'd think of nowadays as free association, where you just start having a little talk to your therapist and the therapist goes, mm hmm, tell me more. Or says nothing. The real deep Freudians, they're completely blank. And in that silence, it then takes them on to the next thing, and then the next thing, and the next thing, and it takes them on to the real thing that was going on underneath it all, all along. And that can happen.
I quite like it when that happens.
Absolutely, and just in everyday life, I think it's quite fun sometimes. this isn't just me, I'm sure, everybody does this, surely, I don't know. But to suddenly think, why on earth am I thinking about that? And you go back, and you go, oh, it was because of that, it was because of that, it was because of that, it was because, and you get back to
Train of
the way you, where you started from. And, it's usually quite amusing, where you, where you end up. Yes?
will gossip over the garden fence back in the day. And they might start off saying, Oh, I've got no news. And then somebody says, Oh, I've got some news. My daughter is this and my daughter does that. And go, Oh, yes.
Actually a friend of my daughter's was, and then blah blah blah, and you've had a conversation for two hours, and then they come back into the house, and they're, I'm, I'm sort of going back to some, some 1970s template here, I think, and the housewife goes back into the house, and the husband says, What were you doing out there? What were you talking about for all that time? Oh, nothing,
Yes.
but nothing and everything all at the same time. We are quirky as humans, I must admit, but if we're honest the relationships that we have with all these different people are, I think, for the majority, the foundations to what keep us going. And I hope I'm not projecting here. I don't think I'm projecting. So I'm quite the people person. So it is people that tick me over, that keep me going. And I know that's not 100% everybody, but even...
Even those that wouldn't describe themselves as people people They still want a connection to somebody They still want to feel that they've got a sense of belonging or connection. And because I can come from lots of different places Work, a social group, a church, but often it's family. That sense of belonging, because it starts when we are born. we're teeny tiny.
We don't know how to look after ourselves, and we look around, bleary eyed and probably a bit blurry, because we can't quite see properly. And our family is the only thing we have. They're a constant. And it's hardwired into us from that point on, that these people are really important to us. That can cause problems later in life, if, maybe, the idea that these people are really important to me, but they're a bit chaotic, or they're a bit absent, or unpredictable.
But still it's hardwired in that they are important to me. And that's what causes a lot of people's problems.
And just to go off on a slight tangent on that it's interesting sometimes when you hear extreme examples of perhaps a parent who's been really, really abusive or done something terrible out in the world. You hear somebody saying, well, I still love him or her. And you're thinking why? Why, why do you love them? And it's that, programming from the very young age that that's what you're supposed to do.
You've got that need built in to be looked after by These people, this person, depending and that sets it up, but then there's the, the societal expectation that you're supposed to love your parents,
And your children.
and your children.
I've genuinely heard many, many times through case studies and people's articles that they might have written online, and clients have said this as well. They'll say about their own children, I love them, but I don't like them. And that's a strong thing to admit. It really is, to say, I don't like my son, for example. I don't like him. They've done some horrible things. They've taken money off me, and they've manipulated me, and they've been cruel, and they've done all these things.
And I don't like what they've done, and I don't like them as a person, but I love them, and I want the best for them. Of course. How could you not love your children? Oh, people,
that is like
it?
Yeah, but that's slightly different because, you know, you've, you've created your children, you don't create your parents. So I think there is an element where something would have to have gone significantly wrong to not love your child, even if you don't like them or like their behavior. But why do we have to love our parents? We didn't choose them.
Hmm, that's true.
We don't have to.
That's a strong thing to admit if we analyze it and go actually love the idea of them. Maybe they love a fictitious version of them that lives in their head, but doesn't actually exist in real life and they love that. But actually them? They don't love them. That's,
really tricky.
hard. And that's why people become estranged. That's a common thing that comes up in the therapy room. Where people will say, I haven't seen my children for a long time, or I haven't seen my mum for a long time. Usually it's that way around. It's the adult children saying, I'm estranged from my parents. Because it's them that are struggling and suffering and they come for help. Whereas, it's less often that the parents are the ones that... Are coming for the help.
It happens, but it hasn't happened as much as the adult children coming in looking for support from the therapist, unless you've had the opposite. Or is it 50 50 for you?
I really couldn't, say I, I don't have a feeling on it. I've had both and I, I don't, I don't have a feeling as to which is more but yeah, it's strange. But of course some people are perfectly happy with it. It's what they want. But we don't see the people who are happy with things, We only see the ones, we only see the ones who, for whom something is a problem. As so often has been said but yeah, the connections between family members are very often part of the work we do.
Mm-hmm. And those connections can be broken or loosened, maybe not completely. Oh. So I think of connections between people is kinda like ropes really. But they're more, more like bungee cord. So the, the people can can become further apart, but they're still connected. Sometimes, click, you know, you've got to cut the cord on some people, and there are some relationships that, they've already let go of their end, and you've got to let go of yours.
it can actually be really useful to think of there being two cords between any two people,
yes, one's been cut, but the other one hasn't.
Because you're in control of one and they're in control of the other. So if you have a relationship, let's say an adult to adult intimate relationship. And one person has a really tight, short cord and the other one has a long dangly cord. You've got a problem because that's not an equal situation. So in that context, the cords really need to be very similar. But in other contexts, they might not need to be similar. And on this subject, we have a question, do we not?
Which will, which will tie into this.
Oh yes, yes, absolutely. Is it your turn to read it out? I
Oh, OK. I haven't read one out for a little while, I think, So, we have a question from Lisa from Lincolnshire, and she says, Richard, you mentioned in a recent episode about your son going to university. And it prompted me to share my situation with you, as my only son will be also leaving the family home and studying quite a few hours away in the autumn. I know it's the right thing for him, but the concept of Empty Nest Syndrome feels very real to me right now.
I'd love to hear the two of you talk about how parents can be better equipped to handle it when their children move away, whether that's university three hours away or simply getting their own home 30 minutes away. Thank you. Lisa. So, thinking of the cords,
Mmm.
I think anybody who's just listened to what we said about cords and then hearing what Lisa said is, those cords. when a child is born, sounds like a song
Oh, you nearly made me start singing then, and I've got an awful singing voice. But now it's in my head. Thank you. Happy Christmas.
When a child is born, there are, there is a literal cord, which is cut.
Oh yeah, of course, yeah.
there are two cords metaphorical cords, attaching mother and baby. And then another two attaching father and baby, hopefully. And other cords attaching grandparents and baby and brothers and sisters and baby. So lots of cords. But let's just take mother and baby just for ease. Those cords are likely to be very similar, very short. In fact, almost non existent. Yes. And
Yeah, almost glued together. You're attached.
certainly, as we know, and I think we've discussed before, a baby doesn't know that it is separate. To start with. And that is part of the developmental process of a baby becoming aware that is an entity of its own, in its own right. So that is a process of those cords lengthening. And most parents will remember times when the child's got to be mobile and they'll crawl a certain distance away, and then they check and they come back because they, they've got to the end of their cord.
Or the mother and I know this includes others, but just, it's easier just to say the mother might think, oh, they've gone too far. So they go and get them back because they've got to the end of their cord.
Mmm.
When you go to the playground, when they've started walking, again, there'll be a certain distance at which that's far enough. That's the length of the cord. But moving forward to well, gradually, I suppose, but sort of jumping forward to teenage years, those cords are going to be different.
Yeah. As soon as they get to, even 11, 12, certainly 13.
the child's cord is much longer and danglier and less elastic, but it's still there. And I would argue, I do quite regularly argue that nobody tends to argue against me though, so it's not really an argument, but that those cords always exist. Even if there is estrangement, the cords still exist. Even after one or other, hopefully, the parent has died the cords still exist. Those are never completely taken away. They still exist.
And this can be a useful analogy to, to use for situations like Lisa's, when the child is doing, or the young adult is doing what they need to do, which is to separate. And it is right, as Lisa says, it is right in most situations for the young person to set up an independent life. The cord is still there and it can be uncomfortable when you've got a tighter cord to somebody than they have to you. It feels, yeah, it feels a bit uncomfortable.
And perhaps, perhaps it is normal for parents when their children are adults to always have a slightly tighter cord. I mean, my children are 29 and 31 now, and I would say that my cord to them is tighter than theirs to me, but that feels right. It doesn't feel too tight. it feels, it feels absolutely fine. I can go days without communicating to them. Although I do think we, we do have such an advantage now with WhatsApp, for example.
So when we were watching or Jack and I were both watching the tennis last weekend, the Wimbledon final, and we were sending messages backwards and forwards and we can just randomly at any time. And I know most people do this and not saying anything new, but we can just send a little gif so we're, we're a lot better than we used to be.
And I remember when I went off to university and I didn't show any understanding to my Mother who was a stay at home mother, and had had some issues with depression anyway. I didn't show any understanding for her situation The reason I didn't show any understanding was because I didn't have any understanding. I dis
And that's not your fault if she didn't tell you. I'm really struggling with this. Communication is important.
is important. To be frank, I think if she had, I probably wouldn't have still got it. I would have just thought, well, stop it.
Okay.
But then, you know, I'm not beating myself up for this. I think I did for a
had the sweet innocence of youth.
I think I did for a while. I thought, oh, I should have done this. I should have gone home in the first term when I didn't
oh.
They say now that the, the brain is not fully developed until 25.
Yeah, well into your
So I was only 18 out of 25, so it was still 7 years of... brain development to go. basically what I'm saying is I think it's okay for the child, young adult, to not realize.
And very okay for the parent to be anxious about their child that they've been controlling for 18 years, on and off, to go off and make their own decisions. and I, I, I had this conversation with my son when he was, I guess he was about 13, something like that, maybe younger, I can't remember.
When, when Dawn was struggling with, with certain stuff, because he was making his own decisions, and she was almost hand wringing and getting a bit stressed about it all, and he's scratching his head going... What's up with her? And I had to sit with him and go, Look, bear in mind, From the day you were born, We made every single decision for you so that you didn't have to. We chose what clothes you wore. We chose what food you ate. We chose who your friends were. He went, No, you didn't.
You didn't choose who my friends were. I went, well, we kind of did because we steered you towards the ones that felt safer to us, that we wanted you to be friends with. It's only subtle. We encouraged certain friendships. It's what you do. And we're not doing that anymore because you're making all of those decisions on your own. Which is fine, but it's the first time we've ever done this, and it's a bit scary. When that happens, as a parent, you've probably got the mix right.
Because if, if your kid doesn't realise that you've been subtly controlling them all of their life, and actually they think that... Oh, I can trust my own decisions. It's, it's, it's great. Then they've probably got good foundations to go and make the right decisions. Especially if you've got a good relationship with them. And if that, so they can say, Hey, I'm not sure about this. What do you think? Great, let's talk about it. But you've got to have that cord.
It needs to be there for that to happen. Ha
Well, on that subject, it's a balance of autonomy versus control, isn't it? I was always very keen to specifically encourage my son's autonomy, but only to a certain extent. the standard example I'd use was I didn't tell them that they had to put a coat on when they were going out. They put a coat on if they wanted to, if they felt they were going to be cold. And I saw many parents fighting their children to put a coat on.
Well, if they choose not to and they're cold, well, next time they'll put one on. So, I, I was... I was always big on that. I wouldn't have let them go out without trousers on.
ha. Yeah.
Let's get back to Lisa's specific circumstance. Now, obviously we know nothing else about Lisa than what she said there. She does recognise that it's a good thing. For her son to be going off, flying the nest. But what does that mean? What does empty nest syndrome mean? It's presupposing a problem, because if it's got the word syndrome in, that's presupposing. That there's a problem and it will certainly be different. It's a new phase in life.
It's a new phase in his life It's a new phase in Lisa's life, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be problem different Sure,
Change doesn't feel good though, does it? It's, it's it's a routine that's been upended almost overnight. No, no, not almost. I mean maybe we do get some off to scout camp for a weekend, little bits, and they might go on holiday with a friend or something, and there's these little introductions to that, separation for the cord being stretched. Oh, it's getting tight! We can get used to it, but it is literally overnight.
The end, in, the end of September, I think, Billy goes to uni, 28th September, something like that. It is literally gonna be one day, he's been with us seven days a week, pretty much, and then, bang, not back till Christmas. If he even wants to come back at Christmas. I hope he will, and I suspect he will. Of course he will.
yes
But not, of course, it's easy for me to go, oh yeah, of course he will, he might not. He might, for all I know, he might go off and do his own thing and go, Oh, I've set something up with some friends, we're gonna go to Amsterdam or something,
No, it's possible.
Yeah, it is, and it's gonna, it's gonna hurt. But it's, it's okay for it to hurt, and that's what I want Lisa and anybody going through something similar to recognize. Your feelings are valid. They're completely normal. It's not necessarily a syndrome to experience this. It's part of being a parent, to experience it.
like to dig a little bit more into that, it's going to hurt. if Billy says he's going to Amsterdam for Christmas, I could see that would hurt because that could be a rejection. of you. Going to university is not a rejection of you. Therefore, hurting for that, is a different hurt. Maybe it's, maybe hurt is, well, you're in it. Does hurt work for you, now, with Billy going to university, or is that a different emotion?
Okay, okay, um... I have some anticipatory grief. There's a sense of loss coming. And I think Lisa's probably experiencing that in advance. She knows that I'm gonna be feeling that there's a, like, for me, there's gonna be a Billy shaped hole in my life. There's TV shows that all three of us might watch, or just something that me and him might watch. We're like, oh no, we need to binge all of this throughout the summer because we're not going to be able to watch all of these things.
And when I said that to him, because here's the thing, you communicate, you talk about it. When I said that to him, he said, oh, we'll just set up a little party. we'll schedule it. And we'll watch it together if there's something we want to watch. Of course I want to watch JoJo's Bizarre Adventure with you. When the next part comes out, I'll press play, you press play, we'll sit and watch it together. And that's what you do. You don't have to be in the same
another advantage to our modern lifestyle.
Yeah,
Again, when I went to university, you couldn't do that. You made a phone call from a phone box. Occasionally.
yeah,
And parents didn't have any real way of creating the communication apart from sending letters.
There's something that could potentially be problematic there that if some if your child is using social media a lot. You end up stalking them.
Mm
Looking at what restaurants they're going to, looking at what pubs they're going to, looking at the reviews, reading the news to make sure that nothing horrible has happened in the street round the corner. And of course it has. Because we've got decades worth of news. So there's always going to be something if you type in street name violence, street name crime. You're going to get it. Please don't do that. Because you always find what you look for. And I think that's important to recognize.
If you look for it, you find it. With everything. And if you look for pride that your son has the faith in himself to go to uni. I didn't. I did not have the faith in myself when I was 18 to go to university. Didn't have the confidence. Academically didn't have confidence. Socially didn't have the confidence. I just couldn't do it. I walked out of my A levels halfway through and spoke to pretty much nobody from my past ever again. Because hey, they don't want to know me anyway.
Turns out they did, and I found out at school reunions years later. Oh, you actually quite like me? Of course! Oh, I thought it was an irritant. Well, maybe you were, can't remember. Oh, I can, and I thought I was. And I carry that with me. I'm 47, I still carry that. And I talk to my therapist about it regularly, as you can probably understand. But it's important to recognise all of this that makes us human.
And if somebody does have that faith in themselves to go, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna feel the fear and do it anyway, you can anticipate the pride. Not the loss. There'll be loss as well, but there will also be pride. There'll be fear. Because, of course, they're out of sight. But they're not out of mind, and that is scary. But that's okay. Learning how to use our imagination, I think, is important. That we don't catastrophize. What if, what if, what if.
The brain doesn't know the difference between fact and fiction. If you imagine horrible scenarios, your body will react as if those horrible scenarios are going on for real, and you've just completely made them up. It's just a dream. Be aware of that so you can catch it. And if you need to control your imagination, then go, okay, stop. I mean, sometimes if you're really going down a rabbit hole, you need to... Scream, the word stop, possibly.
Maybe out loud, maybe just in your head, but you scream it, and you imagine a big stop sign that says STOOOOP, and you catch your imagination and go, okay, take a deep breath here, and you replace that image with something more appropriate. The opposite of the things that you fear. For example, we should all have been taught this when we were at school and be reminded of it via... Medium of podcasts!
Absolutely, but going back to your point about communication, and I think there's a link there between this issue about feeling anticipatory grief and worrying about what they are doing, how they are going to be, what dangers they're going to be in, all of that sort of worry that's very normal, when a child leaves home or goes on their holidays anything, any time when they're away, even, you know, going back earlier when they went to school, you worry about what's
Yeah.
So that's a normal part of parenthood. But at this particular stage, if Lisa can have a conversation with her son and says, this is how it's likely to be for me. Is it okay if I was just to send you a WhatsApp message and say, when you're going on this university trip, or when you're joining this club, or what, please take care. Is it okay if I just send you that message? And you can just ignore it. Because I know that you're going to be taking care anyway. But is it okay if I just say it?
Then, then it's set up. It's set up so it's okay. She can express it. So, I mean, yesterday Greg's gone to the Hungarian Grand Prix this weekend. And Before he went, I said, do take care, won't you? And he just said, yeah, yeah. And it's fine because he knows that I need to say it.
Yes.
But it's
gets it out of your head and that's
it out of my head.
Yeah, we don't want to leave it in your head. That's not a good place to be, all the horrible stuff in there. Want to get it out.
yeah, and I laugh at myself, because... being in Budapest is not likely to be any more dangerous than if he went for a weekend in London or Manchester or anywhere. And I
Just far away,
it's, it's just not here. So yes, I sort of feel a need to say something. But,
Was that difficult for you when Because you moved from Loughborough to Cheltenham and he stayed in Loughborough. How did that feel?
Well, it was, it was all a very gradual process. So, I mean, when they left home, that's well, when Greg left home, so the second one going off to university because when Jack went, I still had Greg at home. So that's sort of different. It's stepped change, But when Greg left, that coincided with my marriage breaking down. So. That was a huge change, but Greg going to university wasn't the biggest part of it.
So, I sort of didn't quite have that typical everything's the same, well, I didn't have it at all. Everything's the same except no children. So I'd already basically, I'd moved to London for a bit, then I went back to Loughborough, but they had already, they had rooms in my house, but they were only there sometimes in the holidays.
Hmm.
And then I went back to London. And then I went to Cheltenham. So, it was all, it was, yeah, it was different. It was different.
I'm aware how easy it could be for two therapists to talk to each other and it turns into therapy sessions if we're not careful
so one of the things, of course, that happens when a child is going to university, and I keep saying child stroke, young adult, they become more of an adult. And then we're moving into the situation where it is actually two adults in relationship rather than a parent and child. Although, obviously. They're still the parent and their child, but in reality, they're two adults. And that, as part of that equation can be hugely beneficial.
I mean, again, speaking personally, having an adult to adult relationship with your kids, just to use that phrase because it makes it a bit easier is wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. But that's a process to go through to get there. And... There was a guy called Fritz Perls, who was the founder of Gestalt Therapy, who wrote a book called In and Out of the Garbage Pail.
He was a German Jew who escaped Nazi Germany and went to live in America, hence the American term of garbage pail rather than rubbish bin.
Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah
To summarize this book in a couple of sentences, which always makes me worried when I do this, but his idea was that at some point, well quite a lot of childhood, All children the ideal is that they feel that their parents are perfect. And you'll have had that experience. I'm sure, Richard, where Billy thought you were the bee's knees. And that mummy was the best mummy in the world. And it's lovely to be on the receiving end of that.
So, at some point, the child needs to recognise that the parent is not perfect because nobody is. And in order to have an adult to adult relationship, the child needs to recognise that their parent is a normal adult human being with flaws. So his analogy for this is that the child needs to throw their parents into the garbage pail, chuck them into the rubbish bin. And that is done by realizing, oh, they're not perfect. They have made mistakes. They make mistakes.
Once they're in the garbage pail, you can take them out again. And that's the setup for the adult to adult relationship. Think of yourself with your parents, have you thrown them in to the garbage pail and taken them out, i. e. do you have an adult to adult relationship with your parents, if they're still around of course. And as a parent, have you been thrown into the garbage pail and been taken out, i. e. do you have an adult to adult relationship with your kids?
So it's just something to think about and if you don't, if that's not in that place of adult to adult relationship, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to move towards it?
Yeah.
and get those benefits. Benefits on both sides. It doesn't mean you can't sometimes go back to being the mummy or the daddy if the, if the child, however old they are, needs it. And it doesn't mean that if you're the child, you can't sometimes go back into being the child and calling on mummy or daddy in that way. But generally speaking, the majority of the time, if you can be an adult to adult that's what works. When you are adults,
And I guess people need to put that into practice. One of the things about learning how to do something is recognising you couldn't do it in the first place. That's the point. So, if you're struggling with that, that's the point. But struggling with it is how you learn how to live with it. And overcome it if need be. So, practice, practice, practice. I think that's important.
and communicate, and on that one as well, if, if you're the adult child of a parent who is continually parenting you, and not treating you as an adult, talk to them about it.
Mhmm.
them, there was this guy called Fritz Perls, dot, dot, dot.
Yeah, so that you don't become enmeshed and that the cords are too close. I know there are no rules as such. There are people that might talk to their parents literally every day. I love those stories when somebody says, My son just texted me a picture of some ice cream that he was eating. And said, Oh mum, you'll love this. Just out of nowhere. Wow, that's wonderful. Do they do that often? Oh, yeah, every few days there's something like that. Or they're standing in a queue at a, in a pub.
And it's like, oh, just waiting at the, waiting at the bar for, to get served. How you doing, mum? What you up to this weekend? Wow! They were, they were doing something else and they thought of you and, and... That's lovely when that happens. If it was every 20 minutes that they're always thinking about their mum. Then,
Maybe not,
potentially, there's a problem. But, nothing's a problem unless it causes problems. And I don't want to put too much of a cultural, that's not the right thing to do.
but it, but whatever the culture is, there's a balance, whatever. So it's finding the right balance for you.
Yeah.
So Lisa, you'll be fine. You will be fine. And you might find that there's advantages to it as well. There'll be things that you can do now that you couldn't do before.
Yeah, he won't be on taxi duty every couple of days. Taking him to and from his girlfriend's house constantly. For goodness sake.
Don't edit that out. Don't edit that
No, I'll leave that in. Well, Billy does the editing actually for this series,
Well, Billy, don't take that out.
A hundred percent. Right! We better love 'em and leave 'em Fiona, cause it's... It's time. Time is ticking on. Right, we'll be back next week with a guest episode with Andrew Turnbull. Is that right?
That is right.
And we'll be talking about people pleasing, which is an extremely common issue that people bring into therapy. And I think we've had multiple emails about that over these last 18 months or however long we've been doing
Yeah, we've touched on it, but this will be specifically... Let's talk about this.
Yeah, let's have a deep dive. Right, we'll do that next week. Oh, we'll speak to you then, then. Have a good one, everybody. Take care!
Bye bye.