And hello to you. It's Therapy Natters time, the podcast series all about psychotherapy, counseling, and all things psychoeducation. So, pull up a comfy chair, let's get to know you better and see if there's something we can natter about that helps you make sense of this crazy world and the people on it. Hello, Fiona. What's new in your world this week? Oh, oh gosh. That's a question. Um, no, I don't think there's anything new, but everything's all fine.
Yes. Looking forward to spring, but there we go. We are always talking about the weather Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's March, isn't it? And you expect it to be better than it is. I'm gonna glance out the window now, and it's, it's the greatest of gray skies. I've never seen a gray sky for March, and it's gonna be literally freezing overnight. I'm like, what? This isn't what I signed up for. This is a temperate zone, But it will get better. It will get better It will it. course it will.
Oh, yes, there's a voice there that our listeners wouldn't have heard before. Hey, Fiona, why don't you introduce our friend? as regular listeners will know. Last time our episode was number 50 and we thought, Let's change things up a bit for our future episodes or some of them by having guests to natter with. So this is our first episode with a guest. And our guest. I'm. Yes. Yes, you are. You are the first Sharon. Our guest is Sharon Mustard, who is a psychotherapist based in Salsbury.
I have known her for over 20 years, I think Richard, probably very similar length of time. and uh, Sharon. specializes in several connected subjects. easibirthing is her, trademark brand of using hypnosis to help with the birthing process. She runs C P D courses, in fertility, and also early years parenting. So who better to have a little natter with about the latter topic? Maybe sometime come back and talk about the other topics.
we were thinking a lot of listeners will be parents, at various stages of the journey of parenthood. but even if you're not, you still had parents of one type or another. So it's got an interest, I would think, for everybody. So, hello Sharon. Welcome to Therapy Natters. Thank you very much. No, happy to be here. Yeah, I'm interested to see what comes up today, to be honest. it's just great to be here really and in such a worthy subject as well.
I tell you something, Sharon, you, you, you've missed out on one thing. As, as both me and Fiona reach for our little mugs of tea. Where's your mug of tea? I know. See, I. oh, you've got, you've got some water. Okay. We'll let you off Oh, it could, but we dunno. it could be, yeah. I'm not telling, I'm telling if if it was gin and tonic, it would've ice in it. Fair. So I put a, a little message out to my patrons on patreon.com just to say that this is what we were gonna do today.
We were gonna do a recording about early years parenting if anybody's got a, a question or is in a, a position where they'd like to ask for advice. Fire away. And we, we have had a, a couple of questions, um, some, some related, some not. We've had a couple of other questions about other stuff and we'll save those for another day.
But yeah, it would be nice to talk a little bit about early years parenting, particularly because, you know, like you say, Fiona, a lot of us have either been parents or those that haven't, they've had them in some shape or form. It is nice to look at things from another perspective and go, oh, that's why they did what they did. Oh, that's why they said what they said. Rather than distort our memories over 30 years and go, wow, my parents blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Well, actually, there were probably just overwhelmed. I know there are extremes and not everybody's childhood was as nurturing as they deserved. But if there's ever something that you're not quite sure, why did my mom do that? Or why did my dad say that? Fair chance. They were overwhelmed and didn't know what else to do or say. And that kind of wraps up the episode in four minutes. Who needs therapy?
We just go, oh, everybody unsure what the heck to do or say and just said the first thing that came into their head, everybody's hurt. Oh I'm, I'm reducing everything down, but is there some truth in that? I know it's an exaggeration, but am I on the right lines there? I would certainly say so. one of the things that, that, we find if we're working either with new parents, or with, people who have older children, people who have children who have grown up and flew the nest.
is that becoming, a parent is a process where you reflect on your own parenting. So just picking up on what you were saying there, Richard, it helps put some things in perspective, and understanding that this is a challenging job if we wanna call parenting a job. you know, it is challenging, it's challenging to know what to do, and so it does help us to reflect on the other things. But the other thing that I would bring up, up in there is something called, um, ghost in the nursery.
I don't know if any of your, your listeners have come across that term or whether both of you. I, I have not heard Ghost in the nursery. No. Tell us all about it. it's from, um, a wonderful, wonderful lady that's written many, many books, called Selma Fryberg. I even even love her name. and so what she was saying about ghosts in the nursery is that it's not just your own parents that you bring along, of course, as, as influence and bring along your own reactions.
But the ghosts in the nursery are everyone that's come behind. So All those ancestors. Who have been parents of your parents, you know, the extended family. It's not just, about parents per se, but that idea that all of that influence is coming together even from past generations that aren't around anymore. And so that whole reflective process becomes a lot wider with all those ghosts. I mean we, we use the term generational trauma For the serious stuff, like, like, you you're in pain.
You, you pass that pain onto your children, they pass that pain onto their children, but it's not always pain or if it is, it's just lower level stuff. It's just, well, this is what we're supposed to do. This is what we always do around here. This is our culture. This is how we talk to each other. And I mean, I've, I've got a phrase that I use a lot that nothing's a problem unless it causes problems.
And if it's causing a problem, if it becomes trauma, if it is generational trauma that's been handed. Parent after parent, every 25 to 30 years, there comes a point where one of those people on that family tree is the one that has to shoulder the burden of being the one to stop it, to override all of that, to go against their instincts and go, I've gotta feel all this feeling, but not pass it on. That's heavy. I would imagine also there can be, conflicts between the ghosts.
I've just got this image of a, a nursery full of ghosts, . It's very, very busy room. But even if you just take it back, one generation to the parents of the babies, Grandparents. So you've got eight people there, haven't you? Yes. Each person has four grandparents. So you've got eight grandparents. Hmm. not in the town I grew up in. Anyway. that's another topic. you could, you could have some real conflicts going on there in terms of those rules and the cultures and the, what you should.
and if those, those ghosts are fighting there in the nursery, what makes it Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Hmm. To add to that metaphorically, if we think of, I'm sure, everyone has seen sleeping beauty or knows of the story or has read. Or whatever. And if you think of the whole Maleficent, another great name. and, you know, the good fairies the bad fairy, the kind of the evil influence.
And, and it's about actually understanding that whether it's intentional or not intentional, the, the ghosts provide good and not so good or not so helpful, as you say, that can become a problem. so it's about understanding that that influence is right along the diversity of being helpful and unhelpful, and it's helping sometimes to pick out the helpful bits as well and maybe tweak them.
Yeah. That, that can help parents be the parent that they need to be to the child, that they're being a parent to. There's a phrase that crops up a lot in what we do, and that's the phrase good enough. Being a good enough parent and good enough is good enough. If we try too hard to be the perfect parent. We are probably not gonna be, we are not gonna help, if anything that could cause problems for ourselves, problems that we pass on to them.
They're babies and children, you know, they pick up on our anxiety, they can smell our fear. They're like bears, you know, . And that's not a, that's not a nice environment for the baby or for a young child to constantly feel there's something wrong here. I dunno what it is, but there's something not quite right, is it me? After all, children of the center of their universe, they are the world. And so there's something wrong with the world. There's something wrong with the universe.
And then they grow up and that becomes part of their personality. And that's delving into personality disorders at that point. So how about we just be good enough, please? Yes, just on that, being perfect would be really a bad idea because a child doesn't learn from perfection. They wouldn't have a way to cope when they go to school and are met with imperfection, let alone when they start working and have bosses who do strange things and, are inconsistent.
So any parents out there, if you notice you've been inconsistent, just say, oops. But at least it's taught my child that people can be inconsistent and it's okay. The, the other thing is, that with us being imperfect, and of course we are cause we're humans, being the imperfect parent helps the child when they, make mistakes because inevitably they will, because they're human too. And so they're not going to, have that.
Uh, feeling of really, being inadequate or incapable or a failure or all of those things, if they actually have witnessed their parent being imperfect and a parent, that's okay with that. And okay to own up to that, to go, oh, sorry about that. I think I overreacted there, didn't I Mate. I've had to do that throughout. My son's 18 now, but I remembered saying those things to him when he was young. Oh, sorry. I was, I was a bit, I was a bit loud then, wasn't I? I didn't, I'm sorry.
I shouted there, didn't I? Yeah, you did. Yeah. Sorry about that. And we just move on. But how easy would it be if we hadn't already had, you know, 10 years of therapy at that point? To go, well, I'm not gonna admit that I, uh, made a mistake there. If anything, I'm gonna double down on on that. I'm gonna shout even more to prove that it was right, that I shouted. So I'm gonna shout even more, rather than just say, oh, I shouldn't have done that and, and own up to it and, you know, own it.
, we, we don't, because we're full of anxiety about making mistakes. Make them, it's Just that, that phrase, because I said so popped into my head, uh, because I know one of the things where I was inconsistent was rules around eating. And so one day it would be, no, you can't have any sweets at this time. And the next day it would be, do you want a Mars bar?
And you know, the kids notice these things and when it's the no day, they don't question it on the yesterday, but on the no day they'd say, but yesterday you said, and then it comes out. Because I said so and the thing, the thing with that is you can get to the point where you can laugh about it. And again, it teaches children that inconsistency is just part of life and it's okay, just ma maximize the yes days. Shall we have a look at those questions that we had?
Yeah. Good. We, we had one from listener Andy, who says he's got a question about how to manage anxiety when out alone with your baby or young child. And he said, I've noticed that my wife and other mums have a real anxiety over being out of the home alone with their little one crying, not settling, disrupting routines, et cetera. And I'll be interested in hearing some tips for managing this and for dads in helping mums.
I've observed also that dads don't seem to have this anywhere near to the same extent. Hmm. actually, he's written something else, but we'll, we'll talk about that in a moment. So, yeah, a question there about maybe moms being more anxious about being a parent and getting things right than dads. Is that something anecdotally that you've seen in, in your experience, Sharon? So I think, first of all, the point is raising there about dads and don't seem to get quite so anxious.
That is not always the case. But I think what happens is, society doesn't make it quite as easy for dads to say, actually, I'm struggling here. and plus, we're still in a society where it is more likely we're generalizing here, that, that the mom is spending more time with the baby and, and almost. Society suggests that, the mom, should hold that kind of responsibility for, for what's happening.
We have a really, really, really simple, simple, tip of technique that we teach moms and dad, whether they're with their baby, whether they're in with their baby. And it's to help them kind of, stay in the here and now. But it's about, imagining, a rectangular object. You can do this with your eyes open. We're not suggesting that you walk along the road with your eyes closed. Please, please don't. So to imagine a rectangular object. Okay?
It might be a mirror, it might be a door, it might be, a picture, a window, whatever. Obviously, if you're right in nature, it doesn't te there don't tend to be many rectangular objects around. so you will have to use your imagination. But, either imagine or, or see, you know, it may be that you're walking through a, a housing estate or past doors or whatever.
So wherever your rectangular object is, what you wanna do is very simply, time your breath so that they are, breathing in along the short side and breathing out along the long side. What it does is it helps you be with you, helps you be with your body rather than all of those thoughts taking you along the anxiety fueling routes.
what you can do is kind of add in, um, very simply breathing in the color of calm and out the color of tension, again in the color of calm along that short side, out the color of tension along that longside. So if you wanna add in a color, that can actually be a useful thing as well. And all the time it is telling our nervous system. It's okay. We're safe, everything is fine. Our baby's fine, we're fine, whatever.
Yeah. it's telling us to return that nervous system to equilibrium and so the breaths out alone, help to send those right messages back to your body. So that would be my tip. absolutely. Not only is that for the nervous system, but also psychologically that's, that's sort of a distraction cuz you're not thinking about all the problems that could the, you know, the what ifs Most new parents go through what ifs and of course we, we, we focus on the things we fear, that's evolution.
If we don't focus on the things we fear, we wander into literally the Bears Cave. So, If you can do anything that can help your brain become more focused on something more optimistic, more positive, more calming, like you say, breathing in something that represents calm to you. and The idea of rectangles think is quite good. Cuz although people talk about square breathing and you use all the sides.
You can see with a rectangle that I must make sure that when I breathe out it's slower than when I breathe in. Cuz that's gonna help a sympathetic system that's gonna help your nervous system to go, okay, now when I tell myself everything's gonna be okay, my unconscious, my emotions. Believe it. I'm not bashing against a brick wall saying, oh no, everything's fine. Everything's fine. When they're full of adrenaline. No, you can calm down and then remind yourself, look, everything's fine.
Everything's fine. I'm good enough. This is safe. Yeah, I like that. Of course. That's really, really useful. I think there's also something about what is the fear that mother of Andy's child is anxious about? And there was something there that made me think she's anxious that she will be judged if the baby, and I'm doing the, the symbol for in quotes, misbehaves because babies do not misbehave.
That's an impossibility because to misbehave you have to know what behavior is, and everything that a baby does is for a purpose. I remember that with my grand puppies. I don't have grandchildren yet, but my grand puppies. Hmm. People saying, oh, that dog's being, that puppy's being naughty. No, it's not being naughty. Babies cannot be, he's being a puppy. Babies likewise, cannot be naughty.
But the thing is that if a a new mom is concerned that she'll be out there somewhere in the middle of Marks and Spencer's when your two year old has a tantrum, and lies on the floor and screams, which is what Greg did on his second birthday. Marks and Spencer's in Exeter. There's probably a plaque, to say. So, you know, if, if the mother or father fears that they would be judged or that they can't do anything and it will never end.
It's the same sort of thing as a panic episode where you sort of feel that it's never going to end, but of course it does, and any mother, any father can manage that situation, even if it's pick the baby up, steer the buggy with one hand and get somewhere else they can manage. Hmm. So they can't control everything, but they can manage anything to get back to that lovely phrase we've used before. So I think it's important to look at what the anxieties are Hmm.
Yeah, because we do live in a, in a judgmental society, uh, uh, it's almost part of being human that we need to accept it. And by accept it, I don't mean we say that it's okay. I mean, we have to accept that humans are full of cognitive biases and we, we want to feel superior and. Any way of, of feeling that superiority by pointing a finger at somebody else and saying, well, I must be a good parent because look at that bad one. my child is obviously wonderful because look at that awful one.
Oh, my son's gonna be okay, because that one's a nightmare. I think that is part of being human, unfortunately. It's what we do with it that, that causes any problems. If, yeah, if we then voice those judgments, uh, then that's just being deliberately rude. the realism of this is that in any situation like that, I was thinking of, uh, a baby screaming on a plane, which is also one that I've had myself. and witnessed plenty of others having it.
Most people will understand because they've been there. Some people will offer to help, which really can help at times somebody can take the baby. Remember one time when Jack was sick on a train somebody took Greg, who was only about six months old, just held Greg whilst I sorted out Jack. We are getting off the next stop. Oops. It was very embarrassing. Um, but , but things happen. But, but no, everybody, well, nobody expressed anything other than, kindness, sympathy, and help.
But you know, that's the thing is also is, is to, is to not presume all the negatives. And then as you say, Richard, if, if people are being negative, they're doing so for their own reasons. Hmm. And thinking back to, to Andy's question is one of the big anxiety fuelers, that, that we find is actually the internal judge. so people.
actually comparing themselves to if, if they're out whether it's at a toddler group or whether they're walking along, they'll compare to other parents, other children. And of course, very often they then confirm that that's it. I am awful, or my child is, challenging or they're not, reaching their developmentally, you know, that. Oh, Communicating. My child's just screaming, you know?
So this constant comparison, and we, we've got this lovely, um, another metaphor, but we've got this lovely picture of two very, very different flowers. you know, one tall and kind of pink and the other kind of quite short with lots of leaves in other words, different. and one flower is saying to the other, oh, you know, I'm not growing as fast as you.
and the second flower says, well, we're different plants, silly and I always say that to, to parents, it's that comparison of how exactly can you even compare either your parenting, your parenting of your child, how can you compare children? We are all so, so, so different. so that's another way of kind of reducing anxiety, obviously, I'm assuming that that, might be of use to your listeners out there. Fiona is absolutely right.
It depends what that anxiety is, kind of how we would, we would work on those tips. Yeah. Andy had a second, uh, second question. He said. If I can throw in a second question, not specifically related to early years, it would be. What age is the right age to start talking about a parent's mental health challenge and how to go about this, particularly when a child may actually spot signs from an early age. That's quite an interesting one that, um, that has popped up in the therapy room before.
I've had parents say, my child needs to know. I don't wanna ruin their childhood by saying, Hey, sometimes I go off on one. And this is why. It's tricky, isn't it? It really is. and again, you, you hinted at it earlier, there isn't a particular right age for everybody. Cause not everybody goes in the same box. We're all different plants. it's whatever is the right time for the system, for the family, for the child, and for you.
But unless there is some formula, which I don't think there is, anybody know of a formula? there isn't a formula, again, because of, being different. I think it's testing out all the time. Whether it's talking about a parent's mental health issues or whatever. It's testing out what the child seems to understand. And part of that, if they're verbal, obviously. You wouldn't start to have a conversation about something like this if they weren't. then just checking out the child's understanding.
But I wouldn't say, oh, by the way, you know, this is what's going on for your parent. I think a child's only capable, certainly primary school and preschool as we're talking about here, children, aren't really gonna understand anything other than the impact for them or on the family so maybe talk in terms of behavior, you know, whether it's mommy sometimes needs a bit of space. Or sometimes mommy can be angry or sometimes daddy can be upset or whatever it might be.
so to talk in terms of what the child is experiencing and then maybe to, talk about, the impact on, them. that would be my call. But I think children need to know what they are capable of understanding. so as early as they are capable of understanding it, if that makes sense. I think there's also something about the awareness in a parent that there's a need. To discuss, to be open and for a child to understand is so much better than the default position of I need to keep it to myself.
So the fact that they've got the awareness that this has an impact and that there is a potential to do something with that. Is a really great first step, and then it's, it's a sort of muddle together of, of how you do it. You just sort of muddle along. But being open, if you say something to a child that they don't understand, well, they don't understand it. It doesn't matter. it's not the end of the world. You say mommy's taking and then some long fangled name of some medication. That's okay.
It you don't have to spend too much effort in getting it right, because they will understand what they understand and then you can learn what they understand by their responses. I think a lot of good can come right at the foundations before we're able to have any conversation like that. Is right at the start of of a child's development is learning about their emotions quite simply that the child can learn that there isn't just this dichotomous, happy or sad.
There isn't just this polarized, good or bad. There are lots, there's a huge spectrum of emotions and so you talk about emotions and when a, child that could only be nine months old at this point or, or eight or seven or 10 or 18, whatever. You feed it back. You feed back how, how they're feeling to them. Oh, you seem disappointed. And the, the child learns, oh, this feeling is disappointment. It's not angry. They're acting angry. But as a parent, you can see why they're angry.
They're disappointed. The advert on the television was just an advert. It wasn't that their show was about to start. if you can feed to a child the information about how they're feeling, then when they're a little bit older and you have to say, oh, you know the big feelings that we get? And the child goes, yeah, I get big feelings. Get little feelings, and I'll get those big ones that make me startled or angry. Tense and I'm gonna smash something.
Well, daddy gets like that sometimes, and this is how I deal with it, and this is what I do, and I go through this rectangular breathing thing, or I have to leave the room, or I start to cry because I'm a little bit sad because of my big feelings and this is just what I do and that's okay. Or I need some time to myself, whatever it is. If they've got that understanding underneath that, there's lots of feelings that humans have. You've got a great foundation for their future.
You've really provided something solid for them when they're older to go. What's going on for me? They don't have to have another five years of therapy to figure it out first. you know, if we can prevent that in our children. Not that you can, I think everybody should have therapy. I mean, I'm a therapist. If I didn't think it was great or I, I wouldn't do this.
But if everybody could dip in and outta therapy every couple of, you know, few weeks of the year, maybe, maybe even just for six months, every 10 years. Great. There's gonna be some that need therapy every month for the rest of their life, or every two weeks for 20 years.
If we can prevent that by very early on teaching a child the difference between guilt and disappointment, then they don't just have anger all the time, which then turns inward when, well, it's my fault, I'm feeling angry, and then they hate themselves and it lowers their self-esteem. There's so much that can be done in those first five years of life.
as I, as I'm saying all of this, I'm reminded of a conversation I heard somebody say about maybe I had an element of this wanting my son to be a little version of me. Because he's a boy, so, well, I'm, I'm a man, so he's gonna be a little mini me. And in many ways my son is, uh, very much like me, but he's also so much like his mom, of course, because he's become himself. He's not just me. But I think when you become a parent, there is that thing in your mind.
I'm gonna shape them, shape them into, into being just the better version of me. No . Let them just be the best version of them. I remember saying I was going to, going to teach Jack as he was my first one, that I was going to teach him to be really romantic. I thought this was a , a really good thing. Um, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I failed. I, I failed. No, not completely. But Ellie, if she ever does listen to this episode, would snort if she was listening to that on the train.
but it's, it's still, it's not the opposite. So he just doesn't do that sort of thing that well. But yeah, that, that was a thing that I had. Sharon, what do you think about the, the idea of parents wanting to shape their children into mini mes Uh, good luck. I think , I think as Richard, definitely said they are, uh, they are unique. They're their own person.
And, you know, we often, hear, um, parents kind of said, well, you know, we want them to be interested in this, or we want them to do that, or, we want them to, excel at school because I did, and whatever, so, so all sorts of ways that they'll go, no, I don't shape them. I let them be who they are. And then you find all these little nuances where you go, oh, okay. Um, are you really allowing them, them just to be themselves? I always remember, my youngest, Bethan.
She would, she would do this, this party trick where she was helping people, to find their way. In other words, if you were driving along in a car and she'd been there before, she would from the age of three actually tell you where to turn. She didn't even know what was right and left. She would just. You know, say done this way, done this way. Some quite complicated journeys, and it used to be like her, her kind of party trick. now my spatial awareness of how to get from A to B is so awful.
that, that I certainly wouldn't want it to be a, to be me in that case. But it's about, I suppose, encouraging that the bits that are them, the. That are, that are them. Um, and certainly not trying to shape them to be you. And that's also in like, like, you know, food interests and, that sort of stuff. Of course, we've gotta give guidance and advice otherwise that all eat, a certain burger and chips all the time.
that I won't mention, maybe we're like the, the BBC that we're not allowed to, to kind of mention, um, brand you wanna slag off McDonald's, you're very welcome to. It's fine. You know it's not good food. We know it deep down Occasionally. So, so of course we've, we've gotta not say, right, that's it. You're, you're kind of, you, you be who you are. We've gotta give guidance and advice because they don't have that maturity yet, to be able to, to make those, choices.
But we can help them whilst all the times kind of understanding how their personality, like Bethan and our spatial awareness, how that's, that's actually develop. and um, what's really interesting is that the bridge between the two hemispheres in our brain, The corpus callosum. Corpus callosum. Well done get Hey, I did pay attention in that class, yeah, you did indeed. Um, that, that bridge we now know doesn't, properly develop until we're 12.
And so the two parts of the brain aren't, talking to each other. And so when we're seeing like massive, shows of emotion and stuff, sometimes all you can do is, is try and kind of. Be with a child or hold them if they'll let you anywhere near, um, you know, and actually just kind of let that fire go out a little bit. so it's another way of kind of not expecting your child to be quite like you because maybe they can't, not, not yet. Maybe they can't understand those same things.
Maybe they can't regulate their emotions in the same way because actually they can't. Yeah. Not. Wow. So kind of went a little bit off topic there with the shaping, but No, that's really, yeah, No, that's really, interesting. Thank you, Sharon. Well, I'll tell you what, it's been lovely having you on here. Thank you very much, Sharon. And at some point in the future it would be nice to have you back on chat about something else.
I think our audience would, uh, would really like to hear all from you. I really, really would. I can chat about most things. Well, That's we Yeah. into this. Yeah. Yes, we can natter. We, we can definitely turn the mic live and just have a good old natter. But we still need to bring it to a close. We can't keep nattering for the rest of the day cause we've got, we've got clients to see and work to do, so we better crack on with that.
As always, there's a link in the show notes to a page on a website where you can fill in a form, send us a question if you've got a topic idea or there's something you'd like to hear about. Let us know and we'll be back next week to natter about something else. Have a super duper week everybody. See you next time and thank you so much, Sharon, for coming on board today. Bye everybody. you, take care everybody. Bye-bye.