All right there you fantastic folk. It's Therapy Natters time again, the weekly podcast series presented by two psychotherapists who love letting random strangers hear our nattering about all things therapy. But instead of overhearing us in a pub or on a bus, you get to hear it straight into your ears via the medium of the internet. Hi, Fiona.
Hi,
Therapy Natters time again. Happy days.
You say we enjoy random strangers listening to us. I just forget about that bit.
Well, there's people listening.
I'm just nattering
Would we have these sorts of natters exactly the same if we were just sitting at a conference in a restaurant or something in between sessions.
it wouldn't be quite the same.
there'd be some similar things though.
we do have these sorts of conversations in training groups or supervision, don't we? So it's not, it's not completely out of sync.
A lot of people think that therapists, a bit like other professions, you know, if you're an engineer or you work on a, a lathe or you work in automotive research, that you'd sit in a pub and you'd talk about work and you'd talk about the things that you did that day. Therapists don't, we don't sit in a pub and talk about what we did that day. We can't. That's unethical cuz of confidentiality. I think it would be too hard.
Cuz you'd have to change so much to anonymize everything that you just wouldn't end up having any conversations at all. It would be just too much effort. I've tried. To think, oh I want to talk about my day, but I need to make it all completely anonymous. How am I gonna do that? Um, I just don't. Take it to supervision if I need to talk about it.
Yes? Absolutely. Yeah, that, that round the dinner table after work thing, you could say, God, I had a really difficult person today. But that's about as far as it can go. You can't say anything more than that. Not to be negative about it, you could have, Oh, I had a really delightful person today, but again, you don't go any further than that.
Yeah. And I think I've learned over the years to not even do that. Dawn, my wife, she stopped even asking me what my day has been like. She stopped about 15 years ago because I just couldn't answer
Yeah.
So she said, you've had a nice day. Well, a day innit as a therapist
bland, isn't it? The responses are just, they've got no content to them cuz you can't give the content.
Yes, and, and I think there might have been a time before Dawn fully understood what I did, that she would think I was just being uninterested. I don't want to tell you about my day, cuz I'd just say, oh, I had clients and updated my website. Right. And that's it. You know, I couldn't go into any more detail where she could just rattle on or did this, did that, did the other, had a problem with this bloke.
This traffic cone that you needed to deal with and I had to put this thing up a flagpole or whatever, you know, she might want to talk all about it and I want to hear and she wants to hear all about my day probably, cuz I'm sure she loves me and wants to get inside my head. Well, you, you don't hun, actually. Although I've gotta be honest. We've had a tricky couple of years. Clients.
I do remember, you know, five, 10 years ago people came to me for therapy at the beginning of their problems and lately they're coming 10 years into their problems and they're more deep seated, more problematic, which is a real shame that we finding lately. But the last couple of weeks I've had a few clients that are spacing the sessions further apart, starting to feel a little bit better despite a lot of the difficulties that are going on in the world.
And that might mean I can start looking on my waiting list for, for clients that inquired about therapy a year ago and said, when could I see you and I had to say, and hello, if you're all listening I had to say, I cannot tell you when I could see you. It could be anywhere between six months and six years. Just, I don't know when I'm gonna have time available. Do you really want to go on my waiting list? And so many said, yeah, I'll wait. Oh, no. Now I feel guilty if I don't see you.
But that's not my choice. They made that decision that says, No, I'll wait. It's, it's fine. I'll wait. Having said that, sometimes I do message people and go, you're coming to the top of my list. I just wondered if you still want to see me. And they go, oh, actually, no. I, I found another therapist who is local and I'm doing alright. I'm doing alright. But if I'm, if I want to change therapists, then maybe I'll reach out to you. Great. That's fantastic. Take action.
And there is such a thing as um, people getting better when they're on a waiting list anyway. That's a known phenomenon. So just the, the step of having taken some action that you know is going to take effect at some point.
Yep. Creates hope. And that's I mean, it's not a placebo hope or is it? Depends how you define placebo. It's something that gets you better.
was just going to say it links, I was just gonna say it links into the placebo effect, but yeah, it's, there's something about taking action isn't there? that helps.
and I must admit, I'm finding it a lot easier these last few years to be able to say No to inquiries. I remember, I think we spoke about this in the burnout episode the other week. I used to say yes to everybody because I'm starting up a business, so I can't say No oh, do you do home visits? Yes. Okay. I'll just do, I'll do that then and I'll spend most of my time driving about, but I saved on rent, but paid in petrol fumes,
yeah. And of course there is, so there is something about therapists. Most, most people go into therapy because they want to help others. So it does tend to go with the territory.
Yeah. You care. We care for others and we want to help them. I guess problems occur when people care a bit too much If their sense of self is based around making sure other people are okay, then that can be painful. And we've had a few questions like that from listeners over the months. And certainly I've had clients over the years that, you know, that's their biggest issue, that they're people pleasers. That's, it's a, it's a big issue. It really is.
We had a question last week sent to us, actually. Shall I read it out? Let's have a look. It was from Heather from Luton. Hello Heather. Heather says, I listened to a recent episode where you mentioned not feeling guilty about having to cancel a night out at the last minute and would love to know how to do that. I've always been a people pleaser, and the idea of putting my needs first if it means someone else feeling disappointed in me seems just impossible. Where do I start?
well, you're starting Heather, cuz you, you're acknowledging it, acknowledging that it's a problem and recognizing, oh, not everybody's like this. And that comes from listening to these sorts of episodes and chatting to people and realizing, oh, there is a choice is there? I didn't know I had a choice. I thought I had to people please I think, well, how long's that been going on?
Absolutely. I'd also like to challenge this, the little bit of here. In me, she says, and the idea of putting my needs first, if it means someone feeling disappointed In Me. If she just left out the In Me if she just not said, just said feeling disappointed. That actually is quite different. Other people's disappointment. It's, yeah, it's sort of uncontrollable in a sense.
You can't make sure everybody's happy all the time, however much you try, but when you are worried that they're going to be disappointed in you. That's a whole extra step, isn't it?
Mm.
So there's something going on here, Heather. You seem to be worried about what people think of you, and we've discussed that before several times at least about the fact that everybody is concerned about what other people think. I was reading a book the other day and there was a line in it that said, Everybody is trying to be a better person unless they are narcissistic. I thought, oh, that's an interesting one. Everybody's trying to be a better person unless they're narcissistic.
I sort of tried to think Is that true? And I think it probably is actually. That we are all trying to do our best and part of that, trying to do our best is not upset other people. Most people do not want to upset other people, and that's how it should be. But clearly it can go too far, as you were saying, if that's what drives you.
mm Yes. And by the sound of things, that's what drives Heather. Making sure that other people are okay. And that's, that's not a recipe for success. If saying yes to other people means saying no to yourself. Every now and again, it's not gonna do any harm cause it's good to be part of a community. It's good to be selfless. But it's okay to be selfish. It's okay to put your needs first and say, actually no, not today.
Actually, no, I'm not able to babysit you at the last minute because I was really looking forward to watching Harry Potter with this bottle of Lambrini or whatever somebody's plans were.
That's a very interesting scenario you've just created there for us to visualize.
Can you still get Lambrini? I don't know. But it goes to show this, this need to people please to, to do the right thing. It's, it's, it's with us all our life. It really is. Unless we become super arrogant and, well, not super arrogant, but very confident to the point of arrogance maybe. And there's a lot of older folk whose self-esteem is quite high and it's very easy for them to say, No, not doing that. I, I love Miriam Margolyes she ticks so many boxes. Oh, absolutely adorable woman.
Love her to bits, and I know I want that level of confidence when I'm her age.
And at the the time of that, we're recording this I'm a celebrity get me out of here is on. And there's been a couple of people in that this year who've just said, No, I'm not doing that. And the others sort of go, oh, okay then
Yeah, I didn't know we were allowed to say no to people. Yeah. Yeah. You are. Heather, you are. Everybody is. But if you've got these, these, these schemas, these scripts, this process running through you that says Well, I can't disappoint other people cuz then they won't like me. Then they might reject me and that's the worst thing in the world. Yeah, of course it is. That's biologically the worst thing, one of the worst things in the world to be on your own.
You're gonna starve to death in the wild if you're on your own. So I get why it creates emotions. But that's okay, they're just feelings. They don't drive our actions. But it means understanding it all and it's not easy to understand.
well, they do drive our actions. They don't have to drive our actions. If we take some build from the awareness of what's going on to then change the action, I suppose that's the difference. In previous episodes we've mentioned a form of therapy called Transactional Analysis. And there's a couple of theories from that that we can mention today, which goes along with it. And the first is the idea of drivers.
And there are half dozen or so drivers defined within TA and one of them is Please others, which we've obviously discussed, but let's go through the others as well. Because some listeners will be familiar with these. They are, Be perfect. Try hard. Work hard. Be strong. And hurry up. Now, I, I know personally, I've got a strong hurry up driver. I get very frustrated with myself if I'm not getting on with something, not all the time, I'm perfectly capable of letting go, relaxing, chilling out.
But I sort of hurry up to do that even when I'm doing that. Oh, let's get on with relaxing. But the hurry up drive. I mean, I was playing bridge the other day and the people I was with were very slow and oh God, it was driving me nuts. I want to get on with it.
Hmm.
That's done me a lot of favors in work terms. Because I get things done. But it can be a problem. All of these things can be good and can be problematic if they become so,
Hmm.
Okay, so let's go in the reverse order we've already done, Please others, then hurry up. I've talked about, do you have anything to add on the hurry up driver?
It's not something that I live by. The please others thing I lived by that for a very long time. The hurry up thing, nah, that's not something I'm, that's not in my awareness. I must admit it might be now when I speak with clients and see what's going on with them.
There's a Latin phrase, Festina lente. Which is usually translated as more haste, less speed. But, it actually means hurry up slowly. And I if Yeah, that's, I think that's sort of what I like to think I do. I hurry up slowly. think, I think people, people will either get that or they don't get that.
yeah.
Be strong is the next one. Being strong is generally a better thing to think about being than being weak. But it's, again, it's when it's taken to extremes. And when it's big boys don't cry. Keep a stiff upper lip, don't talk about it. Be strong for other people and you must show no sign of weakness. Those things, we can easily see how that can be a problem.
Yeah. I'd like to redefine what it means to be strong. Because to me, if we live in a culture that tends to, not accept people for showing their emotions, especially men. Then it's quite a strong thing to show those emotions. To listen to a story that a friend is telling you about something they're going through and be touched by it. And, and get teary eyed. That shows, I think, great strength.
It's not a weakness to show empathy, but, you know, I'm a therapist, so I, I, I think, and feel slightly differently to the, to some cultural norms. But we need to change the norms, I think
I think we are changing them, aren't we? I think things are, are bit by bit again on, I'm a celebrity was talking about how as a child they never got shown any love and, The person said that his mother said to his father, you never say I love you. And the father's response was, well, I'm here, aren't I? And then one of the other people in the jungle said, but it's different these days. We tell our children all the time, we love them. And that is considered now to be a strong thing to do.
And there's so much encouragement to talk that that goes on. So I think it is shifting and that's a really, really good thing.
As long as there's not a pushback from the people with the beliefs on the other side, cuz we do tend to see that. Because it means challenging who they are. If somebody is what they define as strong, which is, I don't need to use the word love. I show my love in other ways. Just my presence, me going to work, me stopping up late to finish this project or whatever it is. That's how I show love and everybody should know that.
Rather than challenge that and go, Oh, the people around me haven't known that I've loved them cause I've not shown them. And realize that, admit that, and go, okay, I need to do something about that. Because of a defense mechanism they dig the heels in and go, now I'm gonna go further into my existing beliefs. And we do see that pushback. I dunno how long it'll go on for maybe another generation, but certainly another decade, I think. We'll get there. We'll get there.
There's also this context dependent strength in this way. People who are in the military for example. They don't need to be uh, the sort of soft, strong they need. They need the strong, strong to be able to do what they need to do and to withstand what they have to withstand. And I've worked with ex-military people and I'm certainly not going to be pushing at those belief systems because, well, they would just walk out.
Yeah. Cause you're not in their frame of reference.
there are other ways.
Yeah.
Now again, I think most people would think working hard generally is a fairly good thing to do. But again, it can be too much, can't it? If it
There's always a balance, isn't there?
There's always a balance.
Yeah.
Oh. Just to say if people are interested in this, you can just google TA drivers questionnaire and you'll find questionnaires online that you can just do in a matter of minutes and it'll tell you where you score on these drivers. It's good fun.
Oh, that'd be interesting. Yeah,
Yeah. It gives you marks out of five, I think.
And if you, if you're currently seeing a therapist, You can take that into them and go, I did this, cuz those sorts of questionnaires are gonna be far better at helping you figure out who you are and what's going on with you than you know which Muppet character you are from some of those surveys. Don't take that in. That's just data mining.
My, my kids sent me through one the other day cuz they, one of them had, had come across this questionnaire that determined what your animal was. And they were doing it. And one was a, well, two, two of my four were dolphins. One was. A koala, and I can't remember what the other one was, but the, the, you get a motto as to what you are with your animal. And all the mottoes just worked. So I did it myself, and it was pure Jungian typing but leading to giving you an animal and a motto.
So I'm a seahorse, and my motto is, let's think about this. And I thought, Ooh, that's okay. I can't remember what else being a seahorse meant, but
I bet I'd be some sort of dog. Some sort of floppy eared. Hello, I love you .Sort of dog. I'd be a Labrador. Yeah. Golden retriever maybe.
But yeah, you
I'd be a beagle. I'd be a bouncy beagle.
Be careful with these. Yes, yes, you would. We have to be a bit careful with these things. As you say, you don't want to be doing click bait things, but this was um, Jungian um, It was okay. But yeah, so you can find out what your drivers are. So work hard I think is fairly self-explanatory as to where that can go wrong. Try hard. Now, try hard is a really interesting one. Any NLPers amongst you out there will say there is no such thing as try only do. I
Do or do not. There is no try.
yes, I'd dispute that because you can try to do all sorts of things and it works or it doesn't work, but you've still tried anyway. But when people are constantly told, for example, I, I know of somebody who throughout school the reports said X should try harder, but X was trying their best all the time that there was undiagnosed dyslexia going on, and this person was trying, trying, trying and not getting anywhere.
But they are still, they're doing absolutely fine, but they are still really a trier because that's part of their DNA almost is I've got to try
Mm. Because of the comparisons they did when they were young. That saw that, well, everybody else seems to be finding life or this subject or this topic quite easy. I'd better try harder so I can keep up with them. And they just had a different learning style
Yeah. So the try hard can definitely be problematic. But also, again, on that talking about balance I suggested the Sedona technique which we covered ages ago on this. Well I suggested that to a client and they came back the next week and said, I, I tried that. It didn't work. I said, how many times did you do it? I just did it once. Well, how, how many things you have ever learned in your life do you learn after doing it once?
And some people have this, this schema of if something doesn't work, first time, I just give up. I remember when my wife bought some hair straighteners, some ceramic hair straighteners, this was probably 20 years ago, but she bought these hair straighteners and somebody complimented her hair and said, oh wow, that looks amazing. She said, oh yeah, I spend a bit of time in the morning just straightening it with these ceramic straighteners and this lady said, I'm gonna get some of those.
Came in to work a week later and, and hair was all frizzy and just as curly as it normally is, and went those, those hair straighteners didn't work. My wife said Well, are you sure they were on? Oh yeah. They were definitely hot. And my wife said, well, I know they work and show me how you did it. And literally all she did is just combed her hair with, with the straighteners. Just very quickly. Took her five seconds.
As if she was just brushing her hair with the straightners and said, look it, I did that and it's still just as curly. My wife went, Ah, no. You've gotta spend a bit more time on it. That's all. Just go slower. Just go slower with it. Because she didn't know, even though it sounds like common sense. But it's not common sense unless somebody shows you. You don't know what you don't know. And it's okay to go, I dunno. And learn from others. Hmm. And that's what these episodes are about.
That's why we're here
yeah, absolutely. And then the final one. On this is Be perfect. Well, I don't think there's much of a balance on that one is the really, because. And it does tie in of course, cuz you be perfect without, well you perfect, but you can't aim for perfection without trying hard, without working hard, etcetera. And what's perfect anyway, I mean, who defines what perfect is
there's no such thing
I often use, um, examples from sport when I work with perfectionists. Say take a golfer? You'd think that getting a hole in one would be perfect. But even then, they say, oh, actually something wasn't quite right with the way that it went, or there was luck involved, or
mm The wind was just, just blew. I actually sent it slightly wrong and the wind
golfers, most golfers never get a hole in one. but those, those, professional golfers might have had, might have several in their careers, but that's how often you get perfection.
And also that they play a lot more
Yeah.
they increase the chances
And then in gymnastics and ice skating, when people started getting perfect marks, they changed the marking scheme because they recognized that even though it was perfect, it wasn't perfect, cuz there's always something you can do better.
If you look at the videos of what won Gold 40 years ago and compare it to what wins gold now, it is drastically different.
I mean, some of that's the equipment
yeah it is. Some of it is the equipment, yes. But there's also the That could be me approach of somebody watching somebody do something and go, oh, I'm gonna try that. And it just lifts the bar. Just raises the bar. There will be a limit to what a human can do, and I, I think it's fine to, to wonder Can I do better? Well, it depends. Depends how you define better, doesn't it? And it's okay sometimes to go, no, this is
good
enough.
So I think with, with this one, anybody who, who gets a high score on that one or is immediately relating to it, that's something to really think about. What is this about for you? What's it saying about you? What choices do you have? Where is it coming from? So there's a lot going on with these. Yeah. There's a lot going on with these drivers. yeah. Yeah. And then there's another theory within TA that links in somewhat, which I think we've got time to go through. Have we or do we not?
Depends how much time you want to spend talking about it. Cause we can come back to this next time.
Yeah. Should we do that?
Yeah,
there's quite, there's quite a lot there. So,
I think we should come back to it next week.
Okay. So just to summarize those drivers, again, really encourage you to just Google that. TA drivers questionnaire and you'll find it. And find out where you are on a scale of one to five, usually be. And whether you are driven to be perfect, to try hard, to work hard, to be strong, to hurry up, to please others. We talked about balance it's probably being, if it's a five point scale, somewhere about two or three on those with, with most of these.
I would be worried if people were a one on please others, for example, or try hard or work hard. This again, as we said, we want some balance. These are not bad things, but a five on Be perfect. Well, I was smiling as I said it, but . Need to, need to be looking at that, if
Mm. Yeah, it, it's good to challenge all of these things, and like we say, look at where it comes from. If you've been doing something all your life. Who said that was a good idea was that from parents, from school teachers. We've gotta bear in mind when we are little, when we are very young, up to the age of five, we don't really know ourselves yet. We take all of our cues from those that are around us and we want to please them.
I think it just goes back to being right at the start, learning to walk. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to, to praise your child for working hard and saying, oh, well done. But yeah, the simplest of things to a child is gonna bring a great big smile to its parents' faces. If for some reason that gets locked in or no, it's not a problem for it to get locked in.
I think the issues happen as the child starts to grow and they're figuring themselves out, that they don't find that balance of, oh, I like other people to be pleased with me, but I don't need it. I'm still good enough anyway. And if you don't have the, I'm good enough anyway.
Mantra as a feeling that runs through you, then we are gonna get stuck in the, I just need to make sure everybody else is okay and pleased with me approach, which there is not a recipe for success anywhere built around that.
So just going back to Heather's question, which was really, she's identified what, what her driver is, although she probably didn't realize it in that context, but she's identified what it is and she said, what can she do about it? Well, it's, as you say, challenge yourself. Think
Hmm.
each situation. Think what? What is this? What can I do?
And it might mean going back and thinking about some interactions you've had with other people and thinking, well, how could I handle that differently next time? Because learning comes from the repetition of these experiences and yes, what might take five minutes to get your head around when you think, what do I want to say? How do I want to handle this? That is still respectful for both of us here. That might take five minutes to get your head around.
Well, you don't have five minutes when somebody says, can you babysit for me tomorrow night or tonight? Or, what are
are
you doing later? Eventually though that five minutes of conversation with yourself that says, how do I best handle this respectfully? Turns into four minutes, turns into three minutes, two minutes, one minute
turns into an instant
unconscious process that is just instinctive for you. But that takes repetition, but it doesn't always have to be repetition in the real world. You've had these experiences in the past, think about them and think about how you would handle them differently. We do this as therapists all the time. Ask our clients to go back and, and re-experience an event, but handling it in a different way the way that they want to. So that when they go and do it for real, the brain says,
oh,
familiar. And it leads them in a, nudges them in a slightly different direction. That can be done. That can be done just going to bed, closing your eyes, and staring at the ceiling and daydreaming. That might be all you need to do sometimes, let alone put it into practice in the real world. So there's lots you can do, but it means doing it.
Absolutely. And going back to what I was saying about the Sedona method, you can practice that or anything like that. Just keep practicing, practicing, practicing. It doesn't have to be on anything particular, just practice. So it, it all ties together that you. learn, a different way of being.
And you can always say to somebody, you know, I really, really don't want to be for you to be disappointed in me, but on this occasion I need to say no. And they're very, very likely, hopefully very likely to say, oh, completely understand. Yes, yes, you're right to do that.
Yeah. And possibly if you don't have friends with that level of respect for you, you might need new friends. As a therapist, I try to look inside the minds of their friends and go, well, they seem to have some insecurities going on there. This is more about them. But I dunno how many times you can keep doing that before people become toxic. But that's, that's different for every individual circumstance, isn't it? Absolutely is. Well, hey, Fiona, we've nattered some what haven't we,
we have indeed. Yes,
and we've definitely got more to natter about, about this, so I think we're gonna return to this topic next week.
Yes, we can move on a slightly different theme from within TA that links in. So let's do that.
We shall do that. We shall revisit this. All right then You beautiful people have a a lovely week. If you need anything, you know where we are. There's a link in the show notes to a form on the website where you can submit some questions. Fire away at us and we will natter natter and natter some more. Okay? Have a super week everyone. Take care all.
Bye.