Happy podcast day it's Wednesday, or at least it It could well be two weeks from next October by now. So, who knows no matter, I hope you're all. Well, this is the Therapy Natters Podcast and I'm psychotherapist Richard Nicholls. And as always, my cohost psychotherapist Fiona Biddle is here too. Hi, Fiona, how are you doing?
Hi. Well, I was fine until you said it was Wednesday. And then I was awfully confused.
I know here's a secret. We record these on a Friday. Ready for Wednesday.
I have been so busy lately that several times lately I I don't know. So I believed you
I've had a few days like that over the last two years, did I nearly
I could have gone with that. Yes. Yes, it was.
Wow. How suggestible are we as humans. Love it. Wow, what could I get away with next?
Oh, that's worrying. What are you going to try?
Now? Um, you've known me for 20 years. Pretty much. I'm a fairly cheery, happy chap. Um, it's one of the most annoying things about me I'm led to believe. Um, my wife will often frown at me for being too annoyingly cheerful. And that phrase, annoyingly cheerful. I've had two separate people call me that in the past.
Only two?
Well to my face or actually, yeah. Yeah, there were both to my face. Once was, um, Uh, once, but I think one was a podcast review, but they've given It was a book review. And another one was an old boss from years ago. Who, when you're trying to remember somebody, when you're looking through all you interviewed, you might write something down like blue shirt, big glasses, She wrote on my CV, annoyingly cheerful.
Hmm. You are a bit like Tigger aren't you?
Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I am. I I'm a happy, I mean, if I was to write a memoir, maybe it would And as a therapist, I can moderate that to a degree in the in the therapy room. There's a time and a place for it.
And I sort of come in and out of those elements of me, because sometimes the character takes a back seat for a bit and sits well my Tigger character tends to That's probably why I need to do these podcasts to let him out from time to time, And sometimes the topics we're going to talk about on this And I mention that because, although I don't have it right in front of me,
We did indeed. I do have it in front of me. And yes, I completely concur, that I suppose the nature of therapy is that emotional but specifically about depression today this is a question he or she says, I have struggled in recent years and through therapy with a disthymia My parents are good people, but my mother was not emotionally available I masked my feelings. Over time suppression became my way of coping with many things in life. A tactic that no longer works so well.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on emotional neglect in childhood, I think it would make some sense to talk a little bit about
Yeah. Because they are kinda different.
Let's have a little look at the definition of dysthymia, and how it Dysthymia is persistent, but slightly lower level than depression might be. So not as severe but longer lasting. So in order to get a diagnosis of depression, you can get that Whereas dysthymia, you need a couple of years before you get the diagnosis As we discussed in. Episode seven.
Yeah. But, and although there's definitely a for and against for labels, I think the criteria for depression because yeah, you're, not particularly happy, but you're like all these people are. So we're not going to give you any medication or we're And actually the condition exists. It's a real thing. And it's pervasive throughout people's life because it is lower It's just always there It's horrible for people.
Yeah. Very, very unpleasant. Well, all of these things are unpleasant. I mean, depression is depressing. I do think that the term depression can be overused. Be careful of the things to, to to not say I'm depressed when I'm down,
Yeah
I'm miserable. I'm having a bad day.
Because if we, if we do, I mean, people do use the word If that's the word people are going to use for being a bit fed up and their mood is
yes
for the ones that need therapy and medication.
Yeah. I often say to somebody, are you saying depression with a capital D or little Miserable. Yes. Even cheery old you. Well, I'm pretty cheery most of the time. Not quite so actively, I suppose, as you, but I am generally a happy person. But yeah, it's it's it's. Yes, exactly. Use the, use the word. When you need the word and you just down fed up miserable There's also different types of depression, clinical depression, So you may have lost somebody or had an accident or been ill or.
Ended a relationship, all sorts of things, anything really,
Or be in a painful relationship, a difficult one where you feel trapped a job you don't like or bullies at work, there's lots of things that And that would be reactive. You're reacting to stuff. And then clinical. I know what I think of as clinical depression. What are we supposed to think? Well, to me, clinical depression is when, and I'm not sure if there are genetic component, potentially big part of that, but there's the chance that It's become repeated.
It's become an unconscious process to feel that way to react that way. And even when the stimulus is gone and your job has improved, or the relationship It's too late and it's just automatic. It's become part of your personality. I know disthymia has got a big genetic component, but maybe What are we supposed to think about clinical depression versus reactive?
I'm not exactly sure. To me, clinical depression is depression. When there isn't something to be reacting against so make it quite easy. That way, people who say I've got no reason to be depressed, but I am.
I'd like to see some studies they probably exist. And I'd like to see further in the future. Those people that say I have no reason to be depressed. This makes absolutely no sense at all, that if they were to pick through maybe Was there something there that lowered self esteem or sense of value or worth Cause it could be, yeah. They're 28, 29 got no reason to be no reason to be unhappy, but they
This leads me to be thinking that this is such an individual thing. We, yes, everybody is different, but there are people who just suddenly say, okay, And they stay in that not for a considerable period of time. Hormones can obviously affect things as well. Who knows what might be going on for that particular person. So pulling it all apart for that person is really important in therapy.
Yeah. I mean a lot of people will assume I'm here I am with it's a mood So I speak to my GP about mood medication. I'd like to think that a GP will also go, okay, let's do some blood tests. Let's look at your thyroid. If you're a man let's look at your testosterone levels, What's that mean? It's not impossible that somebody could have a mini stroke and That's just got a bit damaged , you know there's an area And that might need investigating.
It's not impossible, but we do tend to go, oh, it's a mood disorder, right? Well, let's just go straight into talk therapy, shall we? That's not always, that's not always right.
And there are people who are prescribed antidepressants and take them They do what they are supposed to do. They make them feel better. And so they don't need to do anything else because that does it. Most people though, the antidepressants aren't considered They give them space to be able to work on the issues in therapy, That's okay.
Yeah. I mean, so many people will come into therapy. I'm sure you've had this too and say, the reason I'm come to therapy is cause I want And that's okay. It's okay. If they need that bit of extra help. Biologically chemically. That's alright.
I remember being at a conference one time and somebody How do I get my clients off antidepressants?
Oops.
Ooh. They jumped on him and said, you don't,
you don't,
it's not your job. And one of the speakers actually said that he. was one of these people who is permanently on antidepressants,
Yeah. So, because depression is such a complicated and specific condition and There's no one I'll just buy this book, read this book, take that medication. It's difficult to know what to do. How does that look in the consulting room to you? Fiona.
When somebody comes into my consulting room saying what Anon suppress their emotions as a child, because, and I'm making a leap For them to express their emotions as a child, that when they did it, I don't don't imagine it was that, but it, they, their emotions So to me, it would be about using the adult part of Anon that's still there within her. I'm presuming it's a her now, which I hadn't earlier. It's interesting.
So to support the child part and to be able to leave those emotions And then to learn the best ways to express her emotions in the context in Now, is she in a relationship? How is she in all sorts of relationships and what needs to be worked? In that context so that she can move forward and appropriately feel the
It's it's not something necessarily that we'd explain as a as this is what we're going to do in your therapy sessions, but there are going who, are probably nodding along saying, I wonder if they need reparenting. Does the therapist need to use the, the transference process to create a better And we do do that as therapists. I'm sure. Even when I was 26, let alone 46. The role I might've played for somebody could well have been their Let alone now when almost all my clients are younger than me.
And, um,
I think mine there's quite a wide range. But certainly that reparenting thing, how explicitly you do that it's always subtly there, I think, and certainly modeling a relationship So in this space, you can do what you couldn't do. As a child, and then they learn that this is okay. And maybe it's okay in that context or that context as well. So modeling that safe place to be themselves is crucial.
Absolutely is. And I wonder if there were other places other than just the therapy room and the Where similar things can happen. If friends, partners safe, people within the family can be good listeners. Can be empathic, can know well this is, how I need to be with them If, if I don't know what to say. To hold their hand and say, I'm with you. I don't have the magic words, but I'm here for you to talk and I'm here to listen. If we all did that for each other I'd finally be out of a job.
And do something else, which I think is my aim. Realistically, it's never going to happen. I'm always going to have a job as a therapist, but wouldn't it be
Yes. Well, I think there is an element of being a therapist that is And that is that whenever you're talking to a friend or a family member, you are. At some degree to some degree
Holding back
Considering them.
Yeah.
You're considering how they are in response to what you're saying and Yeah. And if anybody listening to this or did you, Richard and myself, we think about And I can speak in that way to that person, but I wouldn't say that to So it's all different. I think there's always it's because it's two way, that's the thing with So they are, they have their part to play in that relationship. Whereas as a therapist, our feelings don't matter, which is good.
Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that it's perfectly okay. And it happens quite often for a client to be. For whatever reason, angry at their therapist. For lots of different psychological defense mechanisms and reasons And they might want to reject their therapist because deep down they're because everybody does because everybody always has everywhere I go, I've always This feeling that started when they were 18 months old and they were playing with And they were just ignoring them.
And that little thing. Oh, Ooh. Yeah, that's sad. Isn't it? But that's what happens. It's as simple as that and something that I've said time and time again.
To a degree, it is kind of impossible to not create some little traumas There's going to be those times where an 18 month old child just doesn't or she's got her back to you and she didn't hear you, whatever there's going What causes the significant problems is when that is repeated week after year, until that that feeling of I'm going to be rejected, I have no value Becomes their personality. It's unconscious. They don't have to think any words of I'm unlovable I'm rejectable.
They don't need to say those words anymore. It's become an emotion it's in their body. That does take either a very lovely dog or a therapist,
A very lovely dog. That's nice. I'm getting a warm feelings about lovely dogs as you say that, but Not only the persistence of the rejection in quotes, but also So if the child gets upset because parents have ignored their building blocks. And the parents say, oh, sorry. I was just distracted. Oh yes, that's lovely. Well done. Or now I completely missed that. Could you do it again for me, please? If they respond well then it detracts from that becoming something that's inbuilt.
If they can have some accepting experiences, it dilutes down any of the And if there's not enough of that, then all they've got is regular abandonment, And as an adult, it's difficult to repair that. Because of the defense mechanisms that can come up in us when we've had that going on to try and make sense of our world, when we don't have the language, when we're We've just got this feeling on one hand because it's clearly somebody My needs aren't being met. I feel bad.
I don't know what bad means that just got this horrible feeling and they, Or is it them? And some people go, oh, it's me and other people go no it's them. And if you go, oh, it's me. I'm, rejectable, it's all my fault. Then it can become a personality trait that takes them down a particular path. And of course the opposite is also the case. It's them. Nobody can be trusted. Everybody's going to reject me because everybody else is rubbish. I guess it can be summed up in either.
They are good and I am bad. Or I am good, they are bad. Either way. That's painful. That's going to cause problems.
Well, in, transactional analysis. There's the four life positions. There's the I'm okay. You're okay. I'm okay. You're not okay. I'm not okay. You're okay. And I'm not okay. You're not okay. The latter one being called the depressive position. So everything's bad. The whole world is bad. The depressive position. Yeah, the I'm not okay. You're okay. The one down is still, I would say a depressed place because I'm the one that's bad. Everything else is all right in the world.
That's a very uncomfortable place to be. But the one you were saying about it's their fault, that's the I'm That would not be a nice place to be in, be difficult to live from that place. Wouldn't it. But of course the healthy one is the recognition that everybody's basically. Okay. I'm okay. You're okay.
Eric Berne.
Yeah, the okay bit is important as that lovely phrase we have in English. Okay. Meaning not perfect, but it's okay. Don't have it in other languages. Do they not really? An okay. And nobody knows where it came from.
No there's ideas, but it's just conjecture. Nobody really knows not till we get a time machine, we can And if we had a time machine, there's a lot that we'd do. There's a lot that we'd try and influence. Now. We don't have a real time machine. We've got an imaginary one. We can go back. We can go back in our mind and we can. Reparent ourselves. If a little kid needs a hug, we can go into that secret garden. See us, sit with us. Validate us, tell us that we're lovable.
Tell us that we beautiful, whatever they needed to hear, and we can give It's nicer with a therapist. It's easier. You can talk through it. You can do it for yourself. It's an emotional place, but you can do that.
Yeah.
It might be difficult. It might be maybe a little painful, but it could release a lot of good. And it could trick your mind into feeling as if you did get the love I think that can be useful for people.
It certainly can. And also the time machine can take you into the future to see how it's In the past. I remember doing one of these little museumy thing years ago in Oxford and voiceover and he said, There is a time machine going in the past is called memory
Yeah.
And that's, that's what he said on that. And I've sort of kept that with me, for use in therapy ever since, I love it.
Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what we're doing. That's exactly what we do.
I want to just address the element of suppression that Anon we will at some point do an episode on defense mechanisms, but don't Suppression involves some recognition that there is something you are suppressing You know, you're doing it. If you're surpressing. If you're in denial, you're completely wiping it out of your conscious mind. No, no, no, no, no. I, I, I like the guy he's, he's absolutely fine. I've got no problem with him whatsoever. Denial. That's denial.
Suppression is no, I don't like him, but I'm going to act as if I do.
Yeah, both of those creating a lot of pain.
But defense mechanisms serve purposes. And so, you know, I'd say to Anon you know, if it worked, don't knock it. It's got you through. Yes. But yes. Thank you brain. But it might be time as is suggested to think of better ways.
Mm yeah. Yeah. Therapy talk therapy can definitely help with that a hundred percent. And I urge everybody to look into it
Yes, in terms of that idea of using your own inner time machine So going to a well-qualified registered hypnotherapist can really make that
Absolutely look one up. There's plenty about plenty of good ones, there really are. And if you want to find some I've got no problem in somebody reaching out through Is there somebody local that you already know about? We can steer them towards some websites and some people I'm sure. You watch, we'll get a thousand questions now, which is great,
They can start with hypnotherapy.org.uk, which is So, but if you want online, you should be able to find somebody there.
Yeah. In fact, our little group, The Brookhouse Hypnotherapy Group, or was it last week? We've got, we've got a YouTube channel where we've got some stuff Even if you don't want to look into seeing a therapist face-to-face Yeah. Link is in the show notes, go and have a chill out. Do you good. No harm can come from chilling out for a bit. Go for that. Well Fiona considering depression and disthymia is a, it's a sad topic, but I think we did it.
We did it justice in a way that wasn't too doom and gloom.
It is really important to recognize that whilst feeling depressed There is hope it doesn't have to go on forever. And so we don't have to be depressed about being depressed.
Yeah. Cause that's only gonna make things worse.
Yes.
It's hard to have hope I know with depression, but if people And if people couldn't change we wouldn't have a job, we'd be doing something else. We'd find what did work and we'd be doing that instead. So people can recover. They can feel better. It's okay to have hope. It's not disappointing. You not going to get let down by hoping that you'll come out of this and get Right. We're going to have to love you and leave you because look at the time.
Goes so quickly doesn't it?
It does we'd better take ourselves away, have And I'll reiterate something I said last week. Cause I quite liked it. I'm going to say it again, which is something along the lines of can't It was a week ago. But I think I said look after yourself and be kind to everybody how's about that. No, I said be excellent to each other, from Bill and Ted, Be excellent to each other. I think that's a good catch phrase. Let's have that.
Good philosophy of life.
Have a good one. Folks. Take care, everybody.
Bye everybody.