Well would you look at the time? It's time for another episode of Therapy Natters the podcast series all about talk therapy, mental health, and a little bit about why we do what we do feel the way that we feel and think the way that we think I'm Richard Nicholls and with me is Fiona Biddle. And between the two of us, we'll see what questions of yours we can answer today. First question to ask though, Fiona, how are you doing today?
I'm doing really well. Thank you. I've got,
the height of an English summer.
yes. Yes. So it's cold. Um, but I've got well, it's true. It is.
yeah.
I'm, I'm
it all the way now. Isn't it.
I'm looking after Jack's dog at the moment. So I'm, I'm happy. He's nice. Got
you Got yourself, a dog for the week.
Yeah.
The whole week.
Five nights, I think.
Oh, nice. And you can be trusted.
You said that as a statement. You didn't put a question mark on the end. so yes, I can. I can be trusted.
I've never known you have a dog.
I've never had a dog. They've never looked to a dog after a dog overnight before. But we're doing alright. I can be trusted. I think we're doing okay. Aren't we darling. Where's she gone? I dunno where she's gone, but we're
I'm wondering though, I'm wondering if this is denial. He says shoe horning in the topic for today's episode.
And that is actually a point because when we get into this, we'll find, there are lots of overlaps between these here things called defense mechanisms.
Yes last week, we said we were gonna do an episode. In fact, from day one, I think a few months ago we said, oh, we're doing an episode about defense mechanisms one day. So I asked my patrons on patreon.com, my supporters of my projects And said, we're gonna do an episode about defense mechanisms. Do you have any questions?
And they did hooray so we do have some comments and questions, from existing listeners who are interested in, in defense mechanisms and what makes us tick on why we do what we do. Say what we say and think the way that we think. Do you wanna introduce these people? These questions?
I think it might be an idea to introduce a little bit of theory first and then come to the questions as they fit in.
Fiona, what is a defense mechanism? What do we mean by defending? What are we defending in this defense mechanism?
Okay. Before I try to answer that question, I think it is important to say that it's blooming complicated because lots of people have got their own theories about it, and we literally could be here for hours and hours and hours going through all the different types. So, we need to keep it fairly simple and straightforward whilst recognizing the complexity. But I would say that the defense mechanism is a way to protect ourselves from pain, anguish, stress, anxiety, in everyday life.
And whilst the term defense mechanism is often used in a sort of negative way. As a bad thing. it's really, really important. We use them, some of them, some of the time in some ways, because we couldn't live in the world as it is now, maybe ever. I don't know. There's too much going on to be able to take everything in take everything on to process everything. So we have to use defense mechanisms, generally, and sometimes specifically.
So please listeners don't think that these are things to get rid of they're things to work with productively and positively.
I think understanding defense mechanisms is a way of helping us to understand each other, and in that understanding can lead to an acceptance of each other and ourselves, and that can lead to a happier system, whether it's a family system, whether it's a community system, whether it's just our own internal system, it can help put our mind at rest. If we know that the way that we act has a, has a reason has a purpose. .
Fiona: Well, even that phrase, almost sort of saying let's activate defense mechanisms. Isn't it. And I noticed earlier, just as I was thinking before we .came on to do this. I heard somebody on the TV said, you need to take your mind off things. And I thought, oh, isn't that a lovely phrase? It's just one of those wonderful phrases that we have in the English language that everybody knows what it means. And everybody can accept. Yes. I need to take my mind off things, but that's a defense.
It's a, it's a back off, defend, move way from. I was gonna say is acceptance a defense mechanism. No, it's not, but denial would be, and we can use denial as a way of accepting things
Yeah. I think it's, the baseline, for all defense mechanisms, denial. And it can be very positive if talking about how overwhelming life can be. If in the current world, we were to allow everything in. So we allow ourselves to get a complete and full picture right now, right now, a complete and full picture of climate change of the war in Ukraine of, rising prices of, pending strikes. Of existential anxiety,
this is freaking me out
yeah. Yeah. Okay. So right. That's enough. So stop now. we need to get back into our denial because you can't, hold it all. So we are naturally. using denial, to live
How often do we talk about the idea of, of, mental health being based around living in the moment? That's a form of denial to a degree that's okay. We're expected to, it's a good thing.
Yeah, it is, it is a good thing. Um, except when it isn't. So, when I was looking up the theory as I promised last week, I would, one example that I found was when somebody finds, let's say a lump or, a change in some bodily function and , and that as we're sitting here, we know, well, if you find something like that, you go to the doctor to get it checked out. But people will very often use denial on that and say, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just imagining it.
And just completely block it outta their mind because of the fear of the potential outcome. So that's the time when denial not a good thing. So it's important to differentiate. And to recognize when you are using denial positively when you're
not. Yeah, because that denial isn't about isn't being positive. It isn't being optimistic. Being optimistic would be, oh, looks like there's a lump. I better get that checked out. It's probably nothing, but I'll get it confirmed. That's optimism and that's, that's a nice, healthy attitude
Yeah.
to go. Oh, this hasn't changed. that's been like that for years. It's normal. I was probably born with that anyway. That's denial. And then if it starts to grow to go, no, I'm sure it's always been that big. I'm sure that lump on my leg has always been that big. Again, that's denial. That's not optimism. That's not positive thinking.
But then let's say, that you've gone and got the checked and you're waiting for the results. Then use denial whilst you're waiting. Because that goes back to an episode that we did, uh, a while ago on worthless worries, cuz not gonna do you any good. So switch on your denial at that point until you get the result. And then if it's bad news, well then there's different things that can be done. so it's being careful as to how you use these things. So should we do another one?
Indeed.
Let's go for repression. Shall we?
It's a common one.
The thing with repression, which basically means to not really remember that something happened, in some, psychological theories. I mean, Freud believed that some things were too much for the mind to take. And so they were squished down so that literally, there was no conscious awareness of the incident or, emotion attached to said incident at all, the jury's still out on that one. Really as to whether that actually does happen.
maybe it's more suppression, actively squishing something down that, you know, you've squished it down. So one example that's often used is about, let's say somebody who, uh, been, in the military in a war and. They say, oh, well, I know that were terrible things happening, but I really don't remember them. Is that repression as in they actually don't or is it suppression where it's Squished down.
Often it's suppression. I think. When it's described to me. Can be repression. There're times I think when repression can prevent PTSD. And it stops the brain from latching onto traumatic memories and making a, a somatic, uh, feeling within their body, which then turns into potentially a somatization, which is another defense mechanism. You know, actually feel this thing in my body. My body's reacting. Neurologists would, would look at the way the brain and memory is, is formed.
And look at the difference between short term memory and long term memory to move something, to move an experience, a memory from being short term into long term, that takes a couple of minutes. And if something happens in an instant, that's really traumatic. And then 45 seconds later it's the actual event is, is over with either because it didn't happen after all because the lorry jack knifed, but didn't hit you and you went past it or it's just happened and it's over and it was fast.
Irrespective of any physical trauma, the brain can push that memory away and go. We don't need to put that into long-term memory. And as far as the brain is concerned, it just did not happen. It didn't happen cuz the memory has never been kept alive by, remembering it as every day goes by. That sounds helpful.
What do you think about the theory that, the mind does still have the memory in a sense, but the conscious doesn't have access to it. So it's still causing a problem. I had a client once who came to me with fear of driving. And I asked the obvious question, have you ever had any issues, accidents, anything? And she said, oh, I had an accident once, but it was fine. Nobody was hurt. It was no problem.
But in hypnosis, she went back to that accident and for a split second, she thought she had killed her boyfriend. She was driving. He was just absolutely stock still when the car stopped and her mind thought, oh my God, he's dead. And then he moved in that sort of timeframe. Who knows. Nobody knows. She doesn't know. And I certainly don't know how true how factual this story was, but this gave her the reason for her being afraid of driving.
Again, like you say, we don't know, is that, is that just a metaphor that helps somebody heal and move on maybe,
see what I mean, when I said it was complicated,
Yeah.
let's go onto another really complicated one projection. I'm going to get a definition for this one. I will read it out for you placing unacceptable impulses from yourself onto others. So there's something within the self that you feel is not acceptable to hold it there. So you put it out onto others. It's quite a hard one to identify. But. A couple of examples we've got here. The example.
Becky often accuses other women of talking too much and spreading rumours It is rather obvious to those who know her, that she is revealing her own inclinations in that area. And another example here is of a guy who often goes to nightclubs with his buddies and has affairs because he suspects his wife is having an affair. too actually, I think just to simplify that one probably makes a bit more sense to say that somebody who is feeling that they are at risk of having an affair.
Is likely to say to their partner, I don't trust you. I think that that's easier than that example of the guy going to the nightclub and actually doing it. I think it makes more sense to think of it as internally, I feel these urges, so, but I can't accept them. So I'm gonna put them out on you. You are the one who's doing that.
Yeah, we do hear those stories a lot in therapy as family members and friends will, treat. Other people that way they'll treat our clients like that. And the clients will come in and go, why was I treated this way? Is this because of me? Or is it because of them? I go, ah that's why a little bit of psychoeducation can be quite useful for people.
If they can see why other people treat them the way that they treat them, they can see that the other person's just made a mistake, but it's a normal human thing to do.
When I notice a sort of puzzlement within a client about a relationship when they're doing that, I saw your face. Then when you said you got little puzzled, look on your face. Why when you get that sort don't understand, look for projection. Because it's often there, happens in all sorts of relationships, bosses, will, project onto their, employees. It's very interesting.
we are hearing a lot of pushback from a lot of political commentators and, and even members of parliament saying. The the pandemic is to a degree anyway, over why is everybody still working from home? Everybody needs to get back into the office. Everybody needs to get working. We are, they are working. They're just working from home where there's a bit more flexibility. And these characters are saying, no, no, no, no. no. I've, I've been out for a walk during the day.
I've seen people taking, going out for a walk too. There's a lot of people working from home when the sun shines isn't there. They need to be getting in there working. And by the sound of things, one, you. You're doing the same thing. If you're going for a walk in the sunshine too, you know, for a start, shut up for one or I'll give you a back slap and, and it's. And it's potentially maybe projection that well, if I had the opportunity to do nothing, I would too. That's not what we do.
And there has been a big pushback lately because there's a, there's a huge campaign for a, a living wage that says one of the ways to help with the mental health of the, of the country is to get people outta poverty. And the only way to get people outta poverty, if food prices are, are, are high, is to raise wages. And that has to come from a little bit more tax on those high, big, big billionaire earners.
And. There's a lot of, uh, fairly wealthy people saying, no, if you, if you give people free money, then that's no incentive for them to go to work. But that's not what the studies have ever suggested. Studies have consistently said that we want to be productive. That to feel unproductive, even if we've got, even if we, we are quite wealthy. People can be made redundant and they're still their mental health still drops.
They've got plenty of money coming in, but they're not contributing to society and so on. So they, we, as a human, we want to do stuff we want to contribute. But when somebody says I don't wanna see people getting benefits because they, they're not gonna, they're not gonna do anything. Often, that's projection where people think that if I had the opportunity to do nothing all day, then that's what I'd do. And. I get it.
We all wanna do nothing from time to time, but believe me, after a little while of doing nothing, you're desperate to go and do something we all need to learn about these things. I think
We talked about shadow didn't we Yes. I thought did. Yes. What's happening there is they're projecting a uh, an element of their shadow out onto other people. And remember that the shadow has things that you fear being, not necessarily things you are. So it would be quite likely that somebody who's projecting out. They're doing nothing, actually wouldn't be doing nothing, but they just fear that they would and that's unacceptable. Therefore they put it out onto others.
It's also worth iterating, cause I imagine that we did say this, that not everything in the shadow is actually something you would think would be bad. So quite often we can project things that are actually quite good onto other people as well, which also leads to that puzzlement and confusion. Why is this person saying I'm like this when I'm not, but I wouldn't mind being like that, but I'm not. Why are they saying I am.
that's an interesting one. Does this feed in with some of the questions that we got?
Oh, good point. Does it
Cause we've got three questions. Um, let's make sure that we're gonna answer these as much as we can. Question from Anon. Anon says. How do you differentiate between a change which would improve your mental health versus an avoidance behavior?
When I'm struggling there are certain things that I'll take a break from such as reading the news, engaging with social media or online dating, but at what point does it become a less helpful instinct to where I end up avoiding anything that feels difficult? So that's using the, the defense mechanism of avoidance.
But is there a balance is what they're asking between it being a useful defense mechanism to protect their salary or an unhelpful defense mechanism that prevents productivity or prevents even personal development and, and facing challenges and difficulties. we even, how do we find that balance
well, you've just used the crucial word. Twice. Balance. And that's what it is. You can certainly, use avoidance too much. And, certainly using it to a degree in those cases. So engaging with social media, not doing that is. perfectly reasonable. Avoiding the news sometimes seems perfectly reasonable if those are causing, stress or anxiety. But to, you know, bury yourself away and never see what's going on in the world, then that seems a little bit out of balance.
One of my catchphrases is nothing's a problem unless it causes problems.
say it every week?
I think I
do yes.
clients most sessions.
agree. It cannot really be overstated. So I, I know people have told me that I look at the news headlines too much and I said, well, I don't have a problem with.
then it's not too much for too much. for them.
Yeah, exactly. And so same with social media. I mean, I don't really like Twitter because I find it terribly negative.
Yeah. Hmm.
whereas Instagram and Facebook, sometimes you get nice things. You get little nice videos of dogs and cats.
Hmm.
so yeah, it's about balance. These things are about balance. So I think that really is this, this the simple, maybe a sort of get out answer for Anon, I suppose to me, the most important thing is thinking about it.
Yeah. Then you can work it out and go, yeah, this is causing a problem. I am avoiding too much and avoiding social situations can make you lonely. But it could also protect you from social anxiety or other sorts of anxiety. If it's making you lonely, then it's a problem. If it's helping you to feel comforted and you're more introverted than sitting on the sofa with, um, a film or, something creative drawing, coloring in, whatever, if that's doing you good, then it's not a problem.
That's the way I look at it. Anyway.
Yes. And that, that just reminded me of something else. I was thinking earlier about the fact that watching a film, reading a book, coloring in, doing embroidery, knitting, all sorts of things like that. They're sort of defense mechanisms really? Aren't they there a way of just keeping yourself in a little bit and stopping the outside world, affecting you, which, I mean, where's, where's the balance on that? I think the, again, it, it does apply the word, doesn't it?
I think certainly sometimes I go too far into the, sitting and embroidering all weekend and watching Netflix. Oh, yeah. But again, not, I don't think it's a problem, but other people might say it was a problem. So there we go. So what was next?
Uh, Cheryl from London who asks, would it be a defense mechanism to feel the need, to make light of serious problems? For some reason when faced with difficulties like redundancy and even when a friend's boyfriend was hurt in a motorbike accident. I almost felt like I was in a comedy TV program and needed to lighten the mood with jokes. Why can't I just accept reality? Is this denial? Thanks. Short answer, or long answer. Uh, short answer no that's not denial.
Well, it I suppose, but the long answer would be that you're just using humor. just been just using humor.
It's very well known. I think that, uh, humor is a very useful, strategy. Maybe it's more of a coping mechanism than a defense mechanism.
Vailant called it a, a mature defence mechanism
was trying to avoid Valent, cuz it's getting so complicated, the mature immature, et cetera, etcetera. But yeah, I mean If you think about, um, the, the black humor that, um, people in let's say difficult occupations use. So, you mentioned about a fire officer earlier when we were talking, that could be paramedics, uh, surgeons, military, the police, they, they use, they use black humor.
and it's, it is a way of coping and I suppose it's, as long as everybody's on the same page with it, then it's okay. It's only when somebody's not, or they're using some particular type of humor that somebody in the system, finds objectionable, then it can be a problem, but natural. It's natural.
it is, and it's been helpful. Dark as humor can be in traumatic experiences. and It can seem disrespectful, and I understand why people would frown about it. But when you can see that it's a defense mechanism and it's there to protect us from trauma, we need to let people do it. There's been a lot of cutbacks in the fire service over the last few years.
And one of the things that was taken out was, and maybe there were other reasons why it was taken out, but they're always used to be in fire stations, a little bar, there'd be a bar area. And that's where after work, the firefighters would would, would go and they'd have a drink and they would talk about the things that, that experienced.
And they'd talk about trigger warning for severe trauma in accidents, road accidents, skip if you have to, but they would talk about the bodies that they'd seen and even the children that they'd seen dead and they would talk about it and they would have to joke about it. And dark as that is it helped them to process it.
And then when those bars were taken out for a couple of different reasons, ethical potentially, but certainly financially and they, and they couldn't take those, those stories to the pub. And they needed to do that in order to not go home and cry. And it does seem, just seem disrespectful, of course it does. But when you can see the reasons behind it, I think it makes it somewhat more acceptable. And I know that's dif that might be difficult for people to hear.
It certainly makes it understandable. And again, I iterate the, the, if within the system it's okay. I saw a joke actually earlier today on Facebook. I can't remember what the joke was, but somebody responded saying that was sexist. And then somebody came back and said, it was just funny. And it was a woman who said it was sexist. She came back and she said, I didn't say it wasn't funny. Sexism and humor are not distinct. It can be both. And then some guy and I'm going by their names.
Say, but some guy came back and said it was funny because, and then explained the reasons to her. She was tagged to explain. And did actually, respond and said, thank you to whoever this was. I am sure that woman's name was very glad that you mansplained this to her I thought the whole thing was, was really funny. The fact that, that these guys couldn't get the fact that it could be sexist and funny, but that's, that's the thing about, about humor? just sort of taking it away from the extremes.
Of the, uh, the, the firemen and so on. Most people, most people or people I don't know, will use humor as a defense when they're feeling a little bit threatened so they can feel afraid, say laugh, probably most people who are listening, as I say, that will think of somebody that they know who laughs a lot. And that it's, it's, it's there as their, their persona, as we were talking about last week.
It's version of them that they show to the world as this jolly person, to protect and , again, we go back to balance. That's absolutely fine. If it's fine. Is this a problem?
Yes.
We've got a few more little ones. And two that are quite similar displacement and sublimation. So displacement might be that you really want to punch somebody who's just hurt you let's say, uh,
your, boss.
your boss has insulted you or somebody's really upset you, you want to punch them. So, you punch the wall instead. And it we've all done elements of that. I don't think it tends to be terribly effective hitting walls. But we, we do that sort of thing. Sublimation is slightly different in that it's more longer term. Where somebody who's got aggressive tendencies might take up boxing for example.
And we see that in schemes that they have for troubled teenagers and so on, who, take up martial arts and things. So it's, it's a good defense mechanism. I can't actually give you the source for where I got this, but this might be quite funny, but then I might be using a defense mechanism here. This is for sublimation. Parents might be reassured to know that children who pull wings off flies and jab pins in the cat may eventually find their niche in the areas of dentistry or surgery.
was, this was from a psychology website. dunno about
was normalizing sticking pins in cats?
It could be that you sublimate into a career.
Yes, somebody that feels for whatever reason. Maybe growing up, they didn't have much autonomy. They didn't have much control over their, over their life. And they wanted desperately to feel powerful. They might well, instead of doing something that is socially unacceptable, when it comes to, um, showing power, they might turn that into a, into a different form. So they might be attracted into the police force
is it really any different, to sublimate, into being a dentist, as to sublimate into being a boxer
Yeah.
who knows?
in
Yeah. Uh,
of authority. Might even, might even make somebody become a therapist I've known trainees and students who you can see that they've got that power need and questions are asked as to whether they should qualify yes.
Yes. Uh, definitely. And the H word hypnosis. I've definitely, there are some people who go into being a hypnotherapist because they perceive it's as being about control when it is anything but, but it's that perception. That
Yeah.
some people have, uh, two more, two more quickly rationalization,
Oh, does that fit in with maybe what? Cause there wasn't a question from Carl, from Bristol.
oh, Carl from Bristol.
Let me read these out. See if that fits in question. I had a massive argument with my family recently over Brexit. My parents both voted to remain as did I, but now that we've left the EU in facing the consequences, my Dad has flipped the other way. It's like he's trying to justify it as the right thing to do to protect him from feeling angry about it not going his way originally. Is it normal for us to do this? Hmm.
In terms of the father, there could be some rationalization going on there, which is,
but also reaction formation
yeah. So rationalization justifying failures with rational reasons rather than the real reason. And reaction formation is taking the opposite belief because your beliefs cause anxiety. So an example, , here of rationalization, is somebody who suffered heavy financial losses, playing the stock market had to trade her big luxury car for an old broken down small car. And she told her friends that she brought the cheaper car to do her part in the battle against air pollution.
So that's rationalization, so that could fit for Carl's father and then reaction formation. An example of that is. So it's taking the opposite belief. Somebody hates the obnoxious marketing person at work and being around him makes her anxious. So she is always extremely nice to him and agreeable. So taking the opposite position because to stick with the He's horrible. Is too uncomfortable. So either of those could well be going on for, Carl's father.
frustratingly that could often work the other way around. And although it's enormously unacceptable, but nothing's a problem, unless it causes problems, people will often say, maybe when they're kids, the reason that boy was was, was rude to that girl is deep down he likes her. Now I don't like that cuz I, I think that does need to be explored at a young age. If you like somebody, you don't have to pretend you don't by being rude to them or cruel to them.
Because then we've got this schema in place that says, I know that people love me. If they hit me, that's not good for society. Ah, I mean, I'll always have a job, I suppose, as a therapist, if that's the world we've got, but I'd rather not have to deal with that sort of experience in the consulting room, I'm reminded of a story of a, of a, somebody, a nurse in accident in emergency or after a girl had gone in, because she'd been pushed over in the playground and got hurt.
The nurse said, oh, it's probably because he likes you. That's what boys do.
Yuck.
And that stuck in my head for decades, that I was like, that's horrible. That girl being told that by somebody in authority and oh, that's what adults believe. So that's what I'm supposed to believe when I'm older and you think, ah, 20 years later, is that girl in abusive relationships because of that, aren't we complicated as a species, Fiona.
I think we've only just touched the surface of the complexity of this topic today.
Indeed. Absolutely. And we really need to draw the episode to a close
Yes, I don't think you're going be able to edit this down to 30 minutes. Good luck.
I'll I'll do my best. We'll we'll see what I can come up with in a week's time. This is a topic like many things in personal development, mental health psychology. It's huge. And if you are interested in finding out more, then please do. We live in the 21st century full of resources around the internet, full of podcasts and YouTube videos of people talking about these sorts of things. Soak it up, learn it. You might end up becoming a therapist who know. I wouldn't knock it. It's a good idea.
I think it's a great job.
indeed.
so shall we love them and leave them for another week?
Let's do that. We'll talk again soon.
We certainly will have a good week you beauties. Take care all
Bye.