Hi there. You wonderful folk. How about you sit down for half an hour or so and have a listen to two psychotherapists nattering away about something to do with mental health and therapy. I'm Richard Nicholls and with me in the co-host chair, as always is fellow psychotherapist there. Fiona Biddle. Good day Fiona. How's tricks? You got a little smile on your face when I do my in choice sometimes.
Oh, you do make me smile. Yes, yes. You make me smile, Richard. That's got to be a good thing, hasn't it?
I try my best. Yeah.
yes. A lot of
I, I have,
but you do consistently, so thank you.
That's lovely. Thank you very much for letting me know. I do make quite a few people smile, but I'm, I recognize that not everybody likes that sort of character. Not everybody appreciates my slightly quirky, slightly bouncy, overly positive, slightly naively optimistic sometimes, character that I've got. I know that I irritate people. I'm okay with that, now.
I'm 47. I've got to the point in life where I'm, especially with all the therapy I've had and been a therapist for so long, I'm aware that everybody's different. Everybody's got different likes, different interests, different associations. I might likely remind somebody of somebody from somebody's past that they really, really disliked, and they just transfer those feelings onto me. Could be, could be I'm just really irritating, but either way, I don't mind.
Well, everybody irritates some people because as you say, people are different. So it's, unavoidable. So why have any need to try to be somebody else just to not irritate those? Because if you were somebody else, you'd irritate another group.
Yeah. Criticism in some way, shape or form is something that's inescapable, and we have to be okay with that. We can't fit in with every single group.
No.
In our culture, we really, really can't. And that can go to extremes where we are ostracized because of that. And that can be quite upsetting. Oh, no can be. That is upsetting. Ostracization is painful. We spoke about rejection a few times before, haven't we? On this series
Yeah, it does come up quite a lot because it's an underlying human need to belong. So yeah, no wonder we come across it a lot.
I'm not gonna go through my diary, and this isn't a supervision session, but I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't know the percentages. I could just make it up. But let's say a huge proportion of the people that come to therapy have had experiences in their life that revolve around rejection, ostracization. And that has fueled their insecurities or their mental health problems, and that's what they bring into therapy.
Could be 30 years later, but they don't necessarily remember too much about those early times. But when they describe some early times, there are things that jump out. The memories they do have. They do involve rejection in some way, and it's strange that they remember those well. Cuz they were significant. And if they're significant, it forms a part of your world, becomes your personality. This is who I am, this is how I fit in and or don't fit in.
And people living with the fear of it happening again, so adapting their way of being to avoid it happening again.
Yeah, prompted to talk about this because we had a message in from a, an anonymous podcast listener. Anonymous listener says, my daughter is 15. She revealed to me this week she's being constantly mocked, laughed at, and had things thrown at her at school. She also said she feels panic at the general noise level and number of children. I'm unsure where to go to access support for her as she's afraid to go to school currently. She's finding it hard to talk to friends.
She doesn't have many and feels completely isolated. I've tried to listen, but I'm emotionally involved and keep feeling heartbroken for her. I'm just wondering if you had any useful tips, strategies to cover this sort of thing. That's sad when we hear those sorts of stories. Really is.
It is, it is. It's, it's very sad. But I think let's just start, if that's okay, Richard with just for a sec. Looking at the mother and her, I can't help because I'm emotionally involved and I'm heart heartbroken. Well, any parents who are listeners will know that we feel our children's pain.
Yeah, that's empathy and it's really heightened when it's our
yes it's, Absolute. And that's physical as well. I mean, I dunno about you Richard, but I've certainly actually felt a pain in my leg when my son has a pain in his leg. And certainly the, the emotional pain, of course it does. But it's a good thing because you can be with your daughter, anonymous, in this together. So this doesn't mean that you are less able to help her. You are more able to help her. As long as you can be strong and be with that pain.
And if that's a problem, then that's a problem with your own situation. So that needs to be covered first, if you get what I mean. But basically it's be with her. That's the key. But let's look perhaps more at what's going on for the daughter as well, shall we?
Oh, one thing I would say what you were saying there about making sure that you are with her, recognizing that empathy is normal. Just think about the opposite to that and the problems that that could cause if you pretended it was nothing. Oh, this is fine. Everybody has these sorts of experiences at school. Don't worry about it. This is nothing to be upset about. Just get on with it. It's fine. That would cause way more problems. That would add to all the issues. Well-meaning, I'm sure.
And we do want sometimes because of wishful thinking, magical thinking to bury our head in the sand and pretend that problems don't exist. That doesn't help. If that problem exists, it does need sharing. It does need a parent to be empathic and be upset and say, genuinely that's, that's awful. that's really horrible that you're going through that. We don't have to be a therapist to do that. We can be a friend, a teacher, but particularly as, a parent, we've got that chance to do that.
But you do have to dig deep into your emotions to go, okay, I need to be able to handle this. Yeah. And that is hard. Of course, it's, yeah.
In therapy we use the word process. We talk about somebody's process, what's going on inside them, not what they do, but why they do it and how they're feeling.
Hmm.
So in this sort of situation, it's to help the person to understand what's going on for them, what is being triggered. What fears, what insecurities are being triggered by the other people's behaviors, and also to understand the bullies process as much as possible.
Yeah, that can help, of course. All emotion is useful. It might be exaggerated and it might hurt. But our emotions are there to tell us something, to tell us that our expectations haven't been met and we're disappointed maybe. Or that we, we feel is being bullied a feeling? No. There's no feeling of being bullied. That's the experience you're having, but the feeling is something else.
Because it could be belittled, it could be inferior, it could be worthless, it could be small, it could be useless. Well, whatever it is, look at that. Go what what's the meaning behind all of this? And then you've got some data, cuz then you can challenge it. Well, am I worthless? Am I useless? Am I unlovable? I guess cuz heres me thinking about friends.
Cuz obviously if you've got a group of people who are ostracizing you where our focus needs to be is on the fact that there are people in our life that aren't. And if we can concentrate on that, if we can journal about that, we can think about that. We can daydream about the people in our life that do accept us accept, yes. That's a key thing there.
If somebody feels I'm not acceptable, I am broken, there's something wrong with me, then all of that data, all that little waffle that I just did and whatever waffling that somebody else who goes through something might say it could go on for ages. All these different emotions and feelings and processes, that's so useful cuz you can challenge every single one. And every time you get that feeling, you can analyze and go, I understand why I feel this way. This makes absolute sense.
I should feel this way. This is the normal human thing to feel when I'm in this situation. There's nothing wrong with me to feel this, but I'm not gonna feel this forever. I'm not gonna let this shape me for the rest of my life. And I think that can be quite useful because that's when we challenge it. It's when we're having those experiences that then dictate, is this gonna change me? Only for the good. And I know that's not easy. But it can change you for the good
That's rather ghastly phrase, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Nietzche. Yeah.
well, I was thinking of Kelly Clarkson, but yes.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
But just thinking of the specifics in the, question that was sent in. Being mocked and laughed at.
Yeah.
we don't have any details as to what, but you know, children can be cruel. Let's face that they can be, and I want to come onto intent in a minute, but what is there about any particular child that would logically lead to them being mocked or laughed at nothing. There is nothing.
No.
But I would bet that most people can remember a time when they were mocked or laughed at for something because it's what happens. Kids will find something to mock other children about. I used to get teased just for being little. Well, yeah, not a lot you can do about it is there? You know, can't change it. I was I was teased for having freckles again. Well, now I could put makeup on, stop having, stop them showing. But
We shouldn't have to.
no, and I don't, I don't, you know, people get mocked for wearing glasses or for having the wrong color hair or being too fat or too thin or
It could be
Anything. Absolutely. Any child will have something,
when you said, what can you mock a child for? Nothing, but it's nothing and everything. It really is. You can be mocked for living on a particular street for having a certain color backpack. You know, it's ridiculous. And it's not easy to think that it's normal and that it's safe. That's the thing.
And there is, there is a line but where that line falls, goodness only knows. But there is a line between. Teasing
Mm.
and not teasing.
Constantly mocked, laughed at, had things thrown at her. I know kids can be cruel and they do that sort of thing to lots of people, and once they find a target that feeds that bully's need for power or center of attention or whatever it is. Then that's likely to get reinforced. We've got a target now. This is fun. This makes me feel good. This gives me dopamine. This gives me adrenaline. This gives me a good, positive, confident, powerful feeling. I'm gonna do this again tomorrow.
And then the things that get thrown, get heavier. But how do we, how do we prevent that? On one hand, I think we've recognized we can't prevent it altogether, but what we can do is find different ways of dealing with it when it happens.
Absolutely. So it's again, going back to helping the target of the bullies, to not become the one that's the easy target, and that gives them the reward.
Mm.
But that's easier said than done, but it's, it is definitely doable. I know I've done it. But also just, let's look then at the intent. Even the person who constantly teases, which might not be to the level of bullying, they're getting something from it. They're getting something from thinking that they're funny, for example. When the person who's being teased might not find it funny and people take teasing very differently. Some people it's just like water off a duck's back.
Other people really, really struggle with it. And a good tease, if you like, can tell the difference and only teases the ones who can take it.
Yes. Yeah. We've got a friend who does that.
Yes.
He knows who he can and who he can't. And that has upset a few people because they're like, what is he? How does he talk particularly to me? He can't talk to Richard like that. How cruel the man is vile to him? No, he's a mate. And actually we have a sort of Morecombe and Wise relationship when I've got more time for him than probably anybody else because it's the meaning behind it
Exactly,
he's not a bully.
no, but there's two points there. One is that he I have known him to get it wrong when he thought somebody is okay with teasing and they're not, but it's rare. But it, it does happen. And the other is that important factor there that other people witnessing it will vicariously see it, or can vicariously see it as bullying when it's not? So that's an important perception and if we just look for a minute at bullying in the workplace, if that was.
In a situation where the person doing the teasing was the boss of the person being teased, it could make other employees feel insecure because they aren't sure what they might do that might trigger them getting that themselves. So in that context, it could be quite dangerous.
Somebody then becomes a scapegoat if we are not careful. Because if if everybody else tries to protect themselves because crikey, they're being ridiculed and bullied and hauled over the coals, over nothing. I could be next. How can I protect myself? Well, I best aligned with the boss then hadn't I, and then that target becomes a target by everybody I've heard those stories before, really have. And it does need tackling. That's the sort of stuff, that the HR department needs to deal with.
But in most circles, we don't have an HR department that does those things for us. We've gotta do it ourselves. We've gotta be able to take somebody to one side at times when it's appropriate and say, I didn't like that you said that by the way. That happened to me once. You were talking about process earlier on and the meaning behind things. Somebody said that to me once.
This is years ago, and I was doing a radio program and I announced the next presenter as coming on and I forget the exact phrase I used, but I described her as having dulcet tones, would have the dulcet tones of whatever her name is coming up after the news at nine. Something like that. And she pulled me to one side and said, why did you say that? That was really quite rude.
Oh,
Oh, that's exactly the face I pulled. Oh, she misunderstood what dulcet meant. Because it got the word a dull in it. That's the thing she jumped on.
oh, well.
just thought I'd called a dull and she was not happy. Rightly so. So she took me to one side and said, please don't do that. That was really quite ridiculing. Or something like that. Oh, I was really upset for her. I was like, oh, no, you misunderstand. No, dulcet doesn't mean that. It means this. But she had to have the assertiveness to take me to one side and find a new meaning to being described as having dulcet tones.
And if she hadn't had the strength to do that,
Yeah.
the damage could have been considerable.
Oh yes. You could have left the organization and thought, I can't do this. I can't take this any longer. That's the third time he's described me that way. I'm not taking this and went away. Never came back. Could have been. There's a universe where that exists.
So having the strength to question is good because also that leads back to the question of intent. I don't think there are many people, I could be wrong, but I don't think there's many people who get up in the morning and think, who shall I bully today?
They're few and far between. They exist, but they're few.
Most of the time it's more subtle than that. But anybody who's consistently going over that line. Then there is some level of intent. not as in this is my to-do list today. I'm going to bully X, Y, and Z. But there's still a level of intent. There's a purpose there's a meaning that something that they are getting out of it. And for anybody who is being bullied, it's really, really important in my opinion, that you understand that there's something going on.
The bullies process is giving them something by them doing it, and their need to do it must be strong. That must come from some problem within them. Some lack, insecurity, doubt. Their own fear of their own inadequacy must be behind the act of bullying.
Happy, healthy people don't do those sorts of things. No matter how low down on the pain scale it is, there's still something going on, there has to be. For so many things. I've heard things on social media or people in culture. Diminishing somebody's problems because, oh, they're just doing something for attention, for example. Why? Well, they don't, they don't mean what they say, they're just doing it for attention. But maybe this is, non-suicidal self-injury and things like that.
Self-harm and other things. Being dramatic. Oh, they're just doing it for attention. Okay. Even if they are. Why? Because that's not good that they feel they need to do that, and that needs addressing. It's just as important to address the person who needs the attention for some reason than it is somebody who is on the brink of suicidal ideation or something. There's something going on there.
And I know it's not easy if somebody's being bullied to think, oh, that person's just as much of a target as I am. They're going through some stuff and they're taking it out on me. I, I get it. But that is what we do. That's something that's been known for 130 years. If not longer, cuz there was probably some ancient Greek that wrote about this as well. That you just pass it on from one power dynamic to the next. Your boss shouts at you, you go home and shout at your husband.
He shouts at the kid, the kid kicks the cat, the cat runs out the house, catches a mouse. It just gets passed on down. It's displacement that time-honored defense mechanism. It's what? It's what we do. And that is human nature. But like I say, it's not easy when your frontal lobes are offline, let's be honest. Cause that's fight or flight response. If you are being attacked, that's a panther attacking you.
That's a leopard, that's a so-called saber-tooth tiger, which I'm trying to get away from using that phrase cuz they didn't really, they weren't really our predators in in those days.
It doesn't matter that much. We are sitting here though calmly saying all you need to do is understand what's going on and it's all good. No, not, if you're seven and you don't understand the world yet, if you're, what are you, 47? Do you understand the world? I don't know.
no. I've still got lots to learn.
Yeah, I certainly don't understand it. But anyway, no, seriously, if you're seven and you don't understand the world to say this is not enough, but it's part of the solution. It's part of it. And I was bullied when I was roundabout it was probably more like eight to 10, that sort of age maybe. Now as I look back on it, I can see that the main bully definitely had problems and I won't go into the details, but it's very clear now looking back exactly what was going on for her.
But at the time I couldn't, didn't possibly have the capacity to understand that that was what was going on. But I could have done with a little bit more empathy rather than the, don't worry darling, it'll all be fine,
Yeah.
Because It doesn't really help because it's not fine. You are, if you are in it saying it'll all be fine again as seven year old. Well, what does that mean? Stop smiling at me cuz I'm
Mm.
hurting.
I'll let this out if you don't want it in there. But when I mentioned this topic to you and I forwarded you on that message and you said, oh, slightly triggering for me. But yeah, happy to talk about it and I, I must have replied with, you know, if you're sure, and you said, oh yeah, it was a long time ago. And I thought, yeah, it might have been a long time ago. You try telling your body that you try telling your unconscious mind. It doesn't matter cuz it was a long time ago.
We can hold onto things for 50 years.
Yeah, no, I don't need you to edit it I've done a lot of work on it cuz I've done a lot of therapy, but it hasn't completely gone away. There is still that little girl inside who struggled. That's still there. But it's, okay. I was talking to somebody just this morning before we started this cuz I, I asked a few people what they thought, and I got a very, very similar response. This was somebody who was about seven.
I used to make myself sick with anxiety or just cry uncontrollably so I could go home. That was the response. And I really felt that, I felt the empathy when I read that and said, oh, I want to send you hugs. And the response to that was, thanks. I'm all good. One of those things. And that's, it's very similar to what the conversation we've just had is. She's able to say I'm all good. One of those things. But it's still there.
But it will have had a positive influence in that we all learn from these experiences. And going back to what we said earlier, everybody has some stuff. We can learn from them, integrate them within the self, and it's okay. I suppose it's quite a good demonstration of, how we don't change the past and it's still there, but we can change how we deal with the present and how we view the past
Mm-hmm.
through therapy so that it's okay.
Yeah. And worst case scenario for anonymous listener, your daughter will be talking about this in therapy, in years to come. Maybe, cuz she might get triggered at some point by something and go, yeah, I think I need to talk to my therapist about that. I want. The idea of going to see your therapist every now and again as being as normal as going to see your dentist. We just do because we have teeth and we wanna look after them.
We wanna make them as efficient as, teeth are for as long as possible. We not want the same thing for our mind, for our sense of self, for our ego, for our self-esteem. And so we, I think, should all have a private therapist, one-to-one. It'd be nice if it wasn't private as in having to pay privately, but that's another story hashtag general election now,
well, we're not going to, we're not going to get it. Whoever you vote for,
Well, that's true. Yeah. Of course not. Yeah. But, but we need, but everybody needs one cause we all have a brain, we all have a, a life of stuff and it does need more than an AI C B T software to unpack it all and help us.
it be nice if we all had our own registered general mental health practitioner that was available to us in the same way that we have. I mean, it's obviously difficult to get to, but we all do have a physical health practitioner. And the analogy with dentistry, yes. I mean, but how do you do fillings? How do you, repair the damage? It's not as easy is it? You can't get
takes specialist
You have false teeth but you can't get a false brain.
point,
It's quite fun to have a look these analogies.
It it is. But the, the, the, the, the difference between teeth and brains is that there are, there are a lot of stuff that you can do for yourself. You can't repair your own teeth, but people have tried it doesn't go well, whereas self-help, reading, learning, psychoeducation, the fact that people are listening to this podcast right now shows you can take action to improve the way that you think and feel.
You can learn more about yourself, and you can gain new perspectives on things that happened to you in the past. It can be done, so we all need to do it maybe for the rest of our lives, on and off. somebody left a comment on one of my YouTube videos this morning, actually, that just said, oh, just catching up on your episodes. Long time, no speak. Haven't listened to you for a while. Thought I'd dip back in. Hello to you, whoever you were. That is what people do.
They disappear away for a bit and they think, oh, I'm feeling a bit, hmm, lately. Maybe I need to top up my self-esteem. Maybe I just need reminding of some of those things that I learned a few years ago on that podcast by re-listening to some, or listening to some new ones. And if that's what we do for the rest of our life. Well that's not bad. No harm done. We should spend time to look after ourselves.
We should all be journaling or at least daydreaming and thinking and processing stuff in different ways It's easier, obviously, when you're 15 dealing with these sorts of things cuz you've got some better cognition, It's easier to get some psychological education than it is when you're seven being bullied. But it can happen at any age, as we say. It could be seven, could be 17, could be 47. We've all had clients that come to us cuz they're being bullied at work.
I say all that's extreme, but anybody that's had 20 years in working as a therapist has, they really have, because those bullies grow up and that assertiveness, that arrogance could easily come across as confidence. Whether it's false confidence or not, they're not very good at the fight or flight response. So when they feel under pressure, it's just fight. But there are some people that will get a job because of that dominance, that power, oh yeah, we need somebody to shake up this office.
This is just the person to do it. Well, then they could be bullying bosses. They absolutely could, and they well. We dunno what's gonna happen in those situations, do we?
No, but it doesn't have to be bosses. I remember an office I used to work in where it was just one of the regular staff would find a target and bully that person. I wasn't there very long, so I don't really have a picture of where the guy was going work-wise, but he was, I was gonna say he was nothing special. That sounded really quite rude. But he was just one of the team. But yeah, he was a nasty piece of work.
I knew you were gonna use that phrase. Yeah. And now as a therapist. We go, what's going on there?
I wasn't then, of course. But I do remember taking one of his "bullyees", "bullyees" to one side and having a word and, hopefully helping a little bit by showing some empathy and discounting the content of what was being said to him.
If there's anything that we can do when we're on the outside watching this happen, I think is dilute it down. We just need to be the opposite of the bullies. We need to show that we care show that we are welcoming. That that person belongs, whether they've. Gotta because there's, I was gonna say whether no matter, whatever the reason for the bullying is because sometimes there isn't a reason. It is just, there's an easy target.
Sometimes people do have a spotlight shone on them that says something in their body language, maybe. Something about them that says, haha. Yeah. That's gonna be somebody I can pick on. Do we have to change that? Sometimes, yes, but often, no, probably not. Love is the cure, I suppose. Whatever we mean by love.
I like the diluting idea because I was thinking also that this person who's been written about with the mocking and so on, she does have some friends, not many, but she has some. If they were able to do anything, it would be that diluting, wouldn't it? It would be contradicting the mocking. The supporting. And the building the person up so that they can be strong enough to withstand it. It's probably a safer way of going about it than challenging.
Yeah, and it's, it's a difficult thing to admit that you're feeling insecure, but at 15, I'd like to think we're getting to the point in our life where we can have those conversations with our friends, that we can say, cause we do say, Hey, how are you at 15? We're probably in a better position to be able to say, actually not that good today. Oh, what's going on?
And then say Just the bullies just gets to me sometimes, and sometimes I just need to dilute all that down with some good people in my life. So thank you for being there for me. Oh, wow. No of course, of course. I'll be there for you, my friend. Yeah. Uh, I don't realize sometimes how much I need those friends, so thank you. Thank you. If we have to have those conversations, have them. Not easily done at seven years old, but at 17.
At 47. Yeah. But it means admitting vulnerability and for some people that's not easy. Culturally, it's easier for women, not so easier for men. It's easier for me now, but that's cuz some been a therapist for 20 years. I think most of my friends probably wouldn't. Or would they? Or they might. Because they're, if they're part of my social circle, they've, I've probably helped them along a little bit and been vulnerable myself for them to go, mm, it's okay to have these conversations.
Is it okay? Will do. Which is nice. Well, that's what we do. We can, to coin a phrase, be the change that we wanna see in the world. What more can we do? Well, Fiona a serious topic today.
Yeah. And a very, very, very common one,
Hmm. Sadly, sadly it is. And of course, when things are this common, there's no end to the resources that are out there. Sometimes at the end of these episodes, I think to myself, these are the sorts of topics that could make a podcast series all by itself. Yep. I can guarantee that there are podcasts all about bullying, that there are books all about it.
There are endless video essays and YouTube videos all about it because it is common and it would be good to know that you're not alone in experiencing what you experience. That in itself creates a sense of belonging sometimes.
Absolutely.
So we urge everybody if they need to do that, to go and do that. In the meantime, we better wrap up Fiona. Otherwise, we're gonna be going on forever about this topic, aren't we? So let's love them and leave them as always.
doke.
What, up to next week?
Oh, I think we have a guest.
Next week, we've got, let's have a look at the schedule. Oh. It's Kate. Coaching.
Oh.
We're gonna be talking about coaching next week, cuz that's a question that's cropped up a few times. The difference between coaching and and counseling. And do I need a life coach? Do I need a psychotherapist? And I think we had a question about actually about it. We've had a couple over the last couple of months that talk about coaching. So yeah, definitely a topic to introduce. And that will be Kate Jackson. Quite nice to talk to her. Haven't seen Kate for ages. Right.
We'll do that next week.
Okay.
Have a super one. If you need anything, you know where to find us. See you next time. Bye for now.
Bye.