Hiya. It's another episode of the Therapy Natters podcast series for you, the podcast all about talk therapy, where myself, Richard, Nicholls, and fellow psychotherapist, Fiona Biddle, have a little natter about something to do with psychotherapy and stick it on the internet for everyone else to ever listen to as well. What's going on for you, Fiona? Hey, Spring has sprung. It's nearly Easter. Happy Easter.
Yes. It's it's lovely now, isn't it? It's, yeah, I like spring. I've had a very busy few weeks family emergency stuff, but it's settling down a little bit now. And certainly the change of weather will help that. But
Mm.
Crazy busy.
Yeah. We. Like we, we often say on, when we start these episodes, the Brits, we talk about the weather a lot because it changes so much and we have these traditions. That we all stick to, that helps keep us safe. And I use the word safe purely in a sort of evolutionary psychology sense that familiarity is safe because, hey, whatever happened yesterday must have been good. Let's do the same thing again. Well, This is what we always do around here, and that's sort of, this is what we always do.
The festivals that we have, like Halloween in the autumn and Christmas, which is probably part of the same ancient traditions, and then Easter, beginning of spring, and then that ties in with religious stories that get matched up and and so on. We have these connections I think, that says, oh look, blue sky, that means good. And maybe that's something evolutionary as well.
Going back to when we were part of the primordial soup, when we developed the equivalent of eyes that our sponge-like ancestors did. That was what we saw. The blue up there. That was our world and here we are desperately looking for it. Maybe more research needs to be done on that. Because I don't know, and that's the thing I don't know. But how easy would it be to to think well, that makes sense, and then that turns into your reality. That's your truth. That's my truth.
And you can't argue with my truth. Well, It might not be true It's just a concept.
Yeah the, the, the phrase my truth is, fascinating. Just that simple two word statement. Because if something's true, it's true.
except when
Except when it's not. yeah, so it's it. People use the term my truth, to try to bolster what's an opinion or a belief by including the word true within it. Saying it's mine, therefore you can't change, you can't criticize it because it's mine. Whereas if they just say, it's my opinion, then that's really should be adequate cuz people are entitled to their opinions..
Somebody's truth might be that the harder you work, the happier you'll be, because the more money you have, the happier you'll be. And that's somebody's truth. But it's not necessarily backed up by any research that shows that. In fact, what we find is that once you've got enough money that you don't need to worry about money anymore, you're not gonna get any happier, by any extra money. You've got enough. Once you have enough, that's enough.
But you see, that's what, that's what I mean by saying that's not the use, correct use of the word truth. That's opinion. Truth is there's a tree outside that window. That's true. I mean, I'm sure that
fact that the trees is there,
yeah, somebody could find a way to argue it, but within all reasonable bounds, that's a true statement.
Yes I'm, I'm often reminded of the character Bear who lived on Yosemite National Park. He died a couple of years ago, rather sadly, but he was made famous when the internet got popular because he burst into tears and videoed his experience when he saw a double rainbow. And anybody of a certain age, a lot of the youngsters will go, I dunno, who Bear and the double rainbow meme is. But one of the early memes was this guy bursting into tears cuz he saw this beautiful double rainbow.
And one of the things that he said in his video as he's videoing it doing this panoramic shot of this rainbow is, What does this mean? What does this mean? Because to him, he was so into his nature and quite spiritual that that double rainbow meant something to him. It wasn't just the angle of where he was standing compared to the sun and the rain. It meant something to him.
Somebody who was two feet shorter than him will have a different view because the rainbow would look different because they're at a different angle and it means something different.
So Bear had the opinion that to see a double rainbow had a meaning, but he didn't know what that meaning was. He had to look for it
Yeah.
because sometimes those meanings will be put on from the outside, won't they. They'll be in mythology or lore as spelled l o r e of the land or the tribe or whatever it might be, that tells you what the meaning is. So I think it's rather sweet that he felt his opinion was this has got a meaning, but I'm not sure what that meaning is. That's lovely.
Mm although there were some people that ridiculed him. Because he was getting so emotional over just a rainbow, there were many people who were on his side saying, yeah, you, you embrace it. You embrace whatever meaning it is. You enjoy and appreciate and be emotional about that double rainbow, which almost became a triple rainbow at one point. That really set him off. He was properly into it. And he was interviewed a few times because video on the internet was quite new.
Internet speeds just started to speed up. I guess this was about two thousand and ten something like that, and he was interviewed on some news channels and things like that to go. What did it mean to you, Bear? I can't remember what he said, but I can imagine it was probably something like, the world is good. It's beautiful and enjoy it, appreciate it. Be more grateful. Spread the word of gratitude across the planet. You know, Weirdly, he did. We're still talking about it now
Well,
15 years later.
gonna Google it later, so I'll have a, I'll have a look cause I don't, I
it was lovely. All the way across the sky. It was so lovely,
Do you want to tell our listeners why we're nattering about this, or should we just carry on nattering?
well, There was a purpose to it. It was simply because I asked my patrons if anybody's got a topic that they'd like us to address, please do let us know. We'll see if we can shoehorn this into a topic. And somebody uh, anonymous patron of mine on Patreon said to me I'd love to hear you two talk about body dysmorphic disorder. Which is based around a belief system to a degree that says, this is how I should look. This is how my body is supposed to be.
This is what my face is supposed to look like. And given that we don't often 100% meet the cultural norms of what is classed as perfection, which changes every 10 years. You know, What people are supposed to look like and what is attractive and what isn't changes every 10 years, so you've got no chance of keeping up with
Well it, It does, but it's also culturally different. So it within particular cultures, it will change. But there isn't an across the board, across the world view.
Yeah, it's like, what's the funniest joke? There isn't one. Well, There is one, cuz you can just do a load of studies. In fact, professor Richard Wiseman did, and the funniest joke in the world isn't that funny. It's a very average joke, but anyone that was 10 outta 10 in one culture was two outta 10 in another because uh, that's just not funny. I don't, I don't get it. It's not funny enough. It's all right, but it's not funny enough.
The only way that you can get one that across the board, all cultures go. Yeah, that's funny. Is one that isn't that funny. And I think
And that's because it's opinion not fact.
Yes. And And that's what brings us into body Dysmorphic Disorder, where we've got the belief that says, I am ugly, or This doesn't look right, or I'm broken. From a physical perspective. I often wonder if beneath the, there's something wrong with me on the outside, it stems from, there's something wrong with me on the inside, lower down in those levels.
Maybe that's just me being a therapist, but people with body dysmorphic disorder are not usually happy with themselves as a person, not just with the way that they look. There's stuff underneath.
I think we also need to define this a little bit and to talk about the phrase. Body dysmorphia. That is a situation where the perception of elements of the body do not match with the reality. And that can be any or all parts of the body, and it can be in any direction. It could be somebody who perceives themselves as overweight when they're not. It can be somebody who perceives themselves as slim when they're not.
It can be people who perceive themselves as facially ugly when they're not, or the other way around. There's no, There's no particular. There's no rules to it. It's just simply, simply she says, where the two do not match. And then there, there can be degrees of that. I mean, I know that I've had the experience where I've seen myself in a shop window and thought Blooming heck. I didn't think I looked like that or seen a, photo. And I go, oh, crikey.
It's only gets to the level of disorder when it's a problem. To use your
Like I say, nothing's a problem unless it causes problems. It wasn't a problem for me to have body dysmorphia. Because I did, which is rather odd. and I've, I've spoke about it before on the podcast cuz it, wasn't a problem because it was literally the opposite to what people with body Dysmorphic disorder would experience. I thought I was taller than I was. Rather, strangely, I'm five foot six, five foot six and a tiny bit, which is pretty much five, six and a half, isn't it?
So when I'm 17 years old, and if anybody asks me how tall I am, I've measured myself. At some point recently and gone, yeah, five, six and a half, which is pretty much five seven, isn't it really? So if anybody asks, I'm five seven and this is when I'm maybe 17 years old, something like that. So by the time I'm 19, I've been telling myself I'm five seven for a couple of years now, but if I think back, wasn't there a half in it somewhere? Yeah. I'm five seven and a half, aren't I?
Then a couple of years goes by and I'm, I'm sure I'm pretty much five foot eight and genuinely. I am. How old must I have been? Well Into my thirties and me and my wife, we were watching Saturday night tv, Ant and Dec were on it. And I must have said something like, Isn't Declan Donnelly tiny? He's actually really quite short, isn't he? And Dawn went, he's probably the same height as you. I was furious. No, of course I'm taller than Declan Donnelly. Of course I am. Let me Google him.
Googled him five, six and a half. Look, see he's five six. I'm five foot eight. She burst into laughter. You're not five foot eight, you're fool. You need to learn how to use a tape measure. I went, I am five foot eight. I've been five foot eight all my adult life. Go on fetch a tape measure. She went, Righto. She goes off, comes back with a tape measure. What do you know? I'm five six. I thought, how have I lost those two inches? I hadn't lost them. I've been gradually telling myself a lie.
Bit by bit every year from the age of 17 to 35 or however old I was until I truly believed my own lies, cuz it was my truth. Bizarre. Now I discover I'm only five six.
its an interesting thing with Ant and Dec, in that Ant is only two inches taller than Dec. So Ant isn't very big either. I mean, I'm sure that he's under average height. So I do, I smile when he's teasing Dec for being a very small man.
But it goes to show that you can turn what is a conscious thought into an unconscious one quite accidentally, with nothing more than gentle repetition. Now, to me that's a good thing cuz if we know that the brain is able to turn what is just a conscious thought into a deep seated, root belief about self. Then as long as we start repeating all the good stuff in the right way, it eventually becomes unconscious and becomes part of our personality, part of our belief system.
And if that raises our self-esteem or helps us to not care that we've got a mole on our nose or whatever, or one eyes a different color, or whatever somebody's issues might be, or that they're too short or too tall or too skinny or too big. And I've had met plenty of people over the years who sit on these totally opposing extremes compared to other clients. And they might be of the same sort of shape and general attractiveness, but one thinks they're too thin, one thinks they're too big.
You can't both be right. Because you're both the same. One of you is wrong. Maybe both of you are wrong. Maybe you're perfect just the way you are.
Exactly. Then there isn't a right or wrong is there. People are what they are. I had a similar thing to you in terms of height. I used to say to everybody I was five one nearly. But I was measured in a checkup couple of years ago and it was five foot exactly. And I thought, okay, I'll stop pretending then. It was just one time when I'd got over the five foot and I decided that'll do, and I'd just say five foot one nearly. But I always used to perceive myself as small.
Now, it doesn't cross my mind. It's not, it just doesn't. I just don't think about it, except when I'm in the supermarket and the orange juice is always at the back of the top shelf. So you'll regularly see me loitering, waiting for a tall person to go by, but eventually a tall person comes by. and they always are very helpful. Nobody has ever said, no
Who, who would say no? I wonder if you could help me. Could you pass me that? No. I mean, I guess those people walk amongst us, but they, they tend keep themselves to themselves.
point, the point I'm making is that it doesn't matter. Whereas when I was younger, it did matter to a degree cause I'd get teased for.
yeah, if somebody's got something that is so severe that it would be classed by a psychologist or a psychiatrist as a disorder, your reality is so skewed that this is a disorder. It doesn't matter how many times you say Your truth is wrong. It doesn't go in. You can't just say, oh, I so I've got a disorder. So I, I am okay the way I am then. Yes you are. Oh, that's good. I'm afraid not. We can't just keep doing that.
It doesn't help So to treat this, we can't just have a mantra that says, I am healthy. I am whatever it is that somebody needs to hear and believe. I am healthy the way I am. I am perfect. I am fine. That isn't gonna go in, it's gonna bounce off. It really is.
And for the friends, family, and indeed therapists of people with this issue, that can be really frustrating because you want to just say, stop it, don't you? I mean, We are trained to not say stop it. Although if anybody hasn't seen it, do Google Bob Newhart psychiatrist.
Oh, I put that on my, on my YouTube channel years ago now it, there's a version of it on there.
it's, It's wonderful. it's, It's hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. But, we are trained to not say stop it, but as friends and family, that's really what we do is we say, you are wrong, you are fine. You're beautiful. You are gorgeous. You are just the way that God intended. But that doesn't go in if it's to the level of disorder.
And that's a frustrating thing cause it takes a lot of patience and a lot of time if somebody listening, like the patron that messaged in, they, they have been diagnosed. With body dysmorphic disorder. They know that they shouldn't feel the way that they feel about themselves or their body, but they do. And they may look in the mirror and go, but it's true. Look at me. I am fat, for example. Or I am ugly. I am. I do look stupid. Or whatever it is that's going on. How do they dilute that down?
I think. It starts with an acceptance of the possibility that you might be wrong, the possibility that you've been tricked.
And this is a time when, a label could be a useful thing cuz we did a episode a year ago probably about labels and mostly it was about how they weren't helpful, although we did cover the fact that they could be. But this is one where having the label could really help the person to see other people, experts, are saying that what I'm believing is incorrect. And that gives a starting point.
But then going back to what you were saying right at the beginning of this episode about it's being an internal process.
Mm-hmm.
That's where we need to work, isn't it? what's going on inside?
I, I'm reminded of a doctor who had a, a patient come to him. And I forget which, I it's somebody well known and I apologies. Um, I've told this story before and quoted who it was cuz I Googled in advance and today I haven't, you might be familiar with it, he had a patient with what's called Cotard's Syndrome, I think it was called, where somebody believes that they're dead. They have an element of psychosis that makes them believe that they are a corpse.
And so the doctor said, to challenge this person's delusion, said Do corpses bleed? Patient said, No, corpses don't bleed. So the doctor pricked his finger and blood came out and the patient went, oh my goodness, corpses do bleed. Because the only way to explain how it had happened wasn't to change their delusion. It was to change something else, to keep the delusion going because they were deluded. And unfortunately we do see that with people with body dysmorphia.
They see and experience their body in a different way. A little bit like how there are people with schizophrenia and schizotypal disorders far in extreme of the, the stuff that we tend to work with, they have auditory and, visual hallucinations all the time. They're reality is completely changed. They'll see demons and monsters and they'll hear messages from dead people and ghosts and all these different things, and that's when a label is quite useful to go. Okay. This is such a common thing.
Schizophrenia is what, 2% of the population or something like that. But this is so popular that it's got a name, it's called Schizophrenia or Schizotypal Personality Disorder. It's so common it's got a name and then they can begin to challenge. When they see things that aren't there or hear things that aren't there coming through their radio and go, oh, okay, I'm just a bit stressed. And they take a day off work and go, Hey boss I ain't coming in for a couple of days. I need some rest.
Yeah. I think it's worth pointing out schizophrenia really is this little bit of a bucket of putting people in when they don't really know what's going on a lot of the time it's a label for some symptoms that they're not quite sure what's happening. But how would you work Richard with somebody who comes in and says they have been diagnosed by a psychiatrist with body dysmorphia?
I start with psychoeducation. Teaching them a little bit about how the brain works, little bit about how emotions affect the way that we think. And then the way that we think affects the way that we act and see the world which just perpetuates this story, and then that story becomes real. I teach people about the idea of the conscious versus the unconscious. That things can, with repetition become so instinctive that they just happen by themselves.
The signals in the brain just get fired off by themselves. I'll start there with a little bit. But mostly I kind of work in a sort of person-centered counseling style with those sorts of clients because it's likely that there's stuff underneath the things that have been going on for years about their self-esteem. So we'd probably work there.
And hopefully then the body dysmorphia kind of cures itself as they start to like themselves on the inside and then they can value themselves and appreciate themselves and their body. And what it does do. A little bit of challenging, but not too much. I think if you challenge and go, but look, here is your shape. This is the shape that you are. Let's look at other people with that shape. A little bit of that.
I think it might be quite useful to to, to look at people that you do find are a healthy shape. And if they say, I wanna look like them well, let's have a look at what their shape actually is. Well, Actually, they're bigger than you, so in order to look like them, you need to actually gain a little bit of weight. Sometimes these things coexist with somebody with anorexia as well.
They do. And of course it's very common for people to be wanting to be a shape that's impossible. So you and I both being on the little side cannot ever aspire to be a catwalk model. It's impossible. I've got a quote here from the book Sapiens by, I'll read the quote first, then I'll tell you who it's by. The basic raison d'etre of psychotherapy is that people don't really know themselves and that they sometimes need professional help to free themselves of self-destructive behaviors.
It's that people don't know themselves a bit that's really key, isn't it? So what you were saying about the person-centered counseling mode is to help a person know themselves and when you know yourself and then this client with body dysmorphia can learn what's going on and build the awareness around it. Sapiens. By Yuval Noah Harari.
Good stuff.
I would imagine that said author would not be happy that's the only thing I've quoted from him. But maybe I'll do more another time. I've only got that quote because it was sent to me. Somebody actually sent it and said, this might be useful for your podcast. So I've used
Oh wow. Perfect. Oh, thank you. Who was that?
it was Greg.
Thank you, Greg.
Yeah nobody, nobody otherwise contacts me. They'll contact you.
Oh, that's true.
Yes, but that's fine.
What I'd like people who have got self-destructive beliefs about self is to recognize it's okay to be hopeful that things are gonna change. That just because you've always been this way doesn't mean you always will. The fact that like this listener here, they specifically said, I'd like to hear you talk about it. It's because they know that they shouldn't feel the way that they feel. They shouldn't have the belief that they've got. They know it.
But at the same time, they've got that cognitive dissonance of also at the same time knowing and believing that their thoughts and beliefs are right. and at the same time knowing and believing that they're not. Argh. What a turmoil.
It goes back to the beliefs versus facts versus opinions. If somebody can get to the point where they are comfortable in saying, I have this belief, or I have this opinion, but it's not a fact, then builds ground to work on. and I mean it's very common for anybody to muddle up beliefs and facts. And I hesitate to say this cuz it could be controversial. But when you look at religion,
Which religion there are millions.
any
Exactly.
religion,
Yeah.
you look at any religion, there may be some facts within, in fact, there are some facts within. For example, the prophet Muhammad lived, Probably Jesus lived,
There was a couple of people called Jesus. yeah,
there are facts, but there's an awful lot of things that are beliefs or opinions that people who hold those beliefs view them as facts. In fact, there's a guy called Richard Swinburne who was professor of, philosophical theology or something like that. I went to school with his daughter and she's still a friend of mine. She's lovely. Richard Swinburne has written two books proving the Existence of God, and this is the Christian God.
And towards the beginning of the second book, he says that the resurrection of Jesus is proven to be true because people saw him after he was resurrected. Now we have stories that are written down saying people saw him when he was resurrected, but to
fact.
that we've got, there's fact that people have written it down, But that does not make it fact. It might be fact, but we
Yeah,
know it's fact.
And that's where people have to rely on faith.
Yes.
And nothing's a problem unless it causes problems. You can have a faith or a belief in something that doesn't cause a problem, but if you have a belief that somebody only has value, if they look a certain way, if they're a certain height, if they produce a certain amount of something for society, and if they don't, then they have no value, then their self-esteem is going to drop.
If somebody says because of how easy it is to communicate nowadays and share pictures and images where you only have value if you have this sort of lifestyle. Then those that have that belief and don't have that lifestyle will have that. I know my place, belief about self that says well, I'm lower down. But what I tend to find is that people who have that belief about themselves don't have it about other people.
They would look at somebody else who has exactly the same sort of lifestyle, earns the same sort of money, and they wouldn't for a minute say those people have less value than anybody else. Those people are less important. They're kind to others, but they're not kind to themselves. And like we say, maybe there's stuff that's gone on in the past. Maybe there are reasons why their brain has learned that they deserve to be belittled in some way. And it would be good to challenge that.
I think it's important to recognize that these sorts of messages are delivered to children. That these, these beliefs of being inadequate or unlovable, whatever it is form in childhood. And most of the time those messages are may be misinterpreted or given too much weight, and it doesn't have to be perpetual. It can be a one off phrase that's taken in and absorbed to affect the sense of self. It can be repeated over time.
Could be that the parent is constantly saying, you'll never amount to anything, or I shouldn't have had you, or all those sorts of things. Or teachers saying you'll never amount to anything, those messages, or, you are bad at this, or you're rubbish. It can be over time, but it doesn't have to be.
Also I, I wonder if sometimes there are well-meaning suggestions that are given to people about their value. If they're praised and they're something that they focus on something if they're being told, oh, you are so cute. and, And that crops up a lot. You know, kids, Kids are cute, they're little and they've got big eyes and they're, they're cute. We are supposed to nurture those things. So it's hardwired into us to find children cute.
But if a child focuses on the fact that maybe cuz they're extra cute and maybe that's one of the reasons because we also have a culture that seems to say that women don't have value unless they're pretty girls should be seen and not heard, and they should look pretty and cute and, and boys can just be dirty and climb trees. Uh, That's the culture we've got.
But if for whatever reason, time after time somebody's been told how cute they are, how pretty they are, how lovely they are, maybe they can't keep up with that because as the years go on, they're not a cute little five year old anymore. They're a normal, spotty 13 year old, you know, but they've got this belief in them that I only had value when I was being told I was pretty and cute, for example.
And these are the things that we talk about in therapy and try and understand and change perspectives on.
A similar one, but not quite so tied to body dysmorphia, but is the good girl or good boy. You're a good, little girl. You're a good little boy. And then people grow up and find that they're not necessarily fulfilling that criterion. Not because they're being bad, just because they're being human. And that can lead to people pleasing and general dissatisfaction with the self.
I think it would be hard for somebody to go through all of this on their own. Can be done. We'd have to read a lot of books and do a lot of journaling, a lot of meditating and thinking and challenging. But it would be better to sit with somebody and talk through all of this on quite a regular basis, sadly for quite a long time as well. This isn't something that takes six to 10 sessions of hypnotherapy to sort of dilute down. It's not gonna hurt.
It'll do you good, but I think it needs regular checking in with. Potentially, and it sounds a little hopeless, doesn't it? To say maybe somebody with these sorts of conditions would be in therapy on and off for the rest of their life. That's okay. Why shouldn't we be? If somebody's got dodgy teeth, they might have to go to the dentist on and off every couple of months for the rest of their life. And? They just do and accept it.
But when it's about psychological stuff, we get so hung up that we shouldn't.
Indeed we do. And there's also this sort of thing, and I think therapists buy into this as well, that people should go for therapy and then they're fixed and they're done.
Yeah.
we're never done, we're never fully, okay, you can be in perfect physical health, but nobody is ever perfectly sorted psychologically. You can feel good now, but something's gonna come up because things do. We have to cope with the vicissitudes of life.
Hmm.
So I strongly recommend that people are open to having regular periods of therapy and not perceive it as this time I'm gonna be fixed.
Yeah. So many times people write on their intake forms. My intake form, I'm not sure if everybody does the same thing. They may well do, says Have you seen a therapist before? If so, you tick the box of, what sort of therapy it was. And sometimes I get an intake form over the years and somebody's ticked every box. They've ticked the box for psychodynamic therapy, they've ticked the box for C B T, they've ticked the box for existential therapy, family therapy, couples therapy tick, tick.
You've seen a lot of therapists. Oh yeah I've, I've, I've seen therapists for years and years and years. How many sessions you have with each one? Three, or four. And they weren't cured, so they went, oh, I need to do, it needs to be a different sort of therapy. I'll go and I'll go and see a different sort of therapist. I'll have to sit down with them in the session with me and go, I wonder if that's been helpful or not. do you have anything last to add on this before we wrap up for the day?
I suppose I'd just like to say on that point that trying different modalities can be a good thing. but the specific example you gave there was, was of somebody who was not engaging. They were going along. Yeah. Trying a little bit, no, this isn't gonna work, but at least I tried. Yeah. But it's interesting part from anything else trying the different types.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Recommend it and, and over the years, if you are gonna see a therapist every couple of three weeks for the rest of your days, shake it up every few years. If you want to, that is. Do see a different therapist cuz your therapist will understand if you say, I wanna shake things up a bit and see somebody else, they'll be like, great. Brilliant. It'll do you good, fantastic. To get some new perspectives. I hope that what we've done has been helpful.
I wish you well. That'd be fine. They're not gonna be upset.
Yes, any therapist who's wanting to hold onto their clients, rather them experience something new that, that they've got a problem.
Mm, Yeah. I'd question that. Right. tell you what, let's disappear away. Hey, it's Easter this weekend. This comes out on a Wednesday. I think it's good Friday on Friday. Well if your belief is that you only have a successful Easter or if you've been given 14 chocolate eggs, then challenge that because you have value whether you've been given a chocolate egg from some random friend or not you don't need chocolate eggs in order to be happy, although they are quite nice, aren't they?
So yeah, maybe I'll have a, maybe I will be, yeah, I'll be, I'll be purchasing some eggs.
purchased, I've purchased eggs for other people that hadn't even crossed my mind to get one for myself. I won't be having a chocolate egg.
Right? Let's love them and leave them. As always, we'll be back next week and like I say, let us know if you've got any questions. Oh, yes, William. We're gonna do something with William, aren't we? What are we gonna be talking about? Acceptance and commitment therapy?
I think compassion.
compassion makes sense. Yes. That's William's thing. Yeah. I like the sound of that. Yeah, he is very knowledgeable. William. I like him. Well, I like everybody. I'm a bit like that Right. we'll be back next week with a chat with William. That'd be really, really nice. If you need anything from us, you know where to find us. I'm dotted around on social media somewhere and you can always email Fiona at fiona@fionabiddle.co.
uk. If you want to tell her anything and send us some topic ideas and questions, and we'll see what we can do to talk about it. Have a super week, everybody. Enjoy Easter. See you next week.
Bye.