Welcome to our podcast, The Why in the 20s. My name is Viv and I'm Nat. We are two counselors in our mid-20s navigating our adulthood away from our home country, exploring the why questions we encounter relating to relationships, identities and uncertainties. So whether you're listening to our podcast while going for your walk or doing rituals, you're welcome on board and let the journey begin. Welcome back to a new episode of The Why in your 20s. Why is it so soft? Welcome back to another...
No, okay, let's start. Okay, you can restyle. New episode of The Why in your 20s. Welcome back listeners. That is so aggressive. Oh my goodness, I say it's soft and you say it's too soft. No, we can keep it like this. We can see the aggressive side of things. It's not aggressive. I'm trying to be more loud. Yeah, okay. I misunderstood you, sorry. But yes. Yeah. So how's everyone? Good, I guess. Yeah, not anymore. Yeah, I know. I don't know. It should be good. I hope you guys are doing well.
I hope you guys are doing well as well. So recently we have personally, I have received a lot of supportive messages, positive messages regarding our podcast. Yeah, that's actually really nice. Either from our parents or friends. It means a lot to us. It does. It really does. That you guys enjoy or like resonate with it. It feels like what we're doing is making a change. Not a difference. We're not making a difference. It's weird.
I don't think we, honestly, I don't think we're making a difference in other people's lives, but at least for my life. I think at least for like specifically for my parents, like they will understand how I think, what's going on in my life as well. Yeah. And I'm not that open. I don't message them constantly. I don't tell them like I did this, I did that. But through this podcast, when they listen to it, they know, oh, this is going in her life or something like that.
That is actually true because how often you got the chance to talk openly like this with your parents. And it's just really nice to have people supporting you. And I think without this podcast, I don't, like, I didn't realize that they were this supportive of me, like of the things that I do in my life. Yeah. Which is very surprising and very comforting as well. I'm glad that they are proud of what I'm doing as well.
Yeah. They are supportive and giving really constructive feedback on how we can do better as well. And I learned a lot along the way. Like either I would just randomly look for research paper, which I would never do. Like I only do it for like essay writing when I was studying last year, but it's just having that. It's like a hobby to me now that looking for papers and understanding in a deeper level on the topics that we are going to share.
And of course, on top of our personal experience, it's really rewarding to me. It is. Yeah. I definitely agree. So thank you so much for your support. It really means a lot to us. Yeah. And I saw your dad's message. It was very cute as well. Actually, it led me to reflect on something else, actually. Something very useless, but because I saw you saving your dad's number as daddy. Yeah. I saved it to like my dad's name.
Even like my mom, I would save it as her name, her whole name, like first, last name like that. And I was talking to like one of my friends and they were like, yeah, they do that too. And it's because as kids, we were taught that we should not save our parents as mom and dad because if we lose our phones, people can just call your dad and mom. So I was saying like, oh, your kid is in whatever, whatever. And then that is creepy. Yeah. Or I get kidnapped or something like that.
When you get kidnapped, they know who to call immediately. And I thought it was just my family or like just me. Yeah. But apparently no, like other people was like that too. That's not the reason why I saved my parents, mommy and daddy. No, I mean, like I don't save my parents as mommy and daddy because they, they won't know who to call. Oh, oh. Because if someone steals your phone, they will know who to call immediately.
Yeah. It was just something that we realized, oh, we both actually had the same experience. I know. I mean, not you. That's the last thing that I would think of, like kidnapping. I think to me, it's like the idea of I'm the youngest in the family. So I cannot call my sister her name at all. I can only call her sister. Yeah. I call my sister sister as well. So I wouldn't save my parents name, their actual name, because I only call them mommy daddy. I never call them their name.
Yeah. But it's just something to put in your contacts. So is it solely because safety reason that you save? Wow. Why my parents never tell me that? They don't care if you're kidnapped. What if I got kidnapped? They won't pay the rent. You told my daughter? Okay, go, go, go ahead. Wow. That's so interesting. Yeah. Anyways, that was a tangent and it just reminded me of something. Oh, it's a cute story. We always love to start with a story. But yeah, we are diving deep into our topic today.
I'm actually very interested, excited for today's episode. Are you excited about your regrets? Yeah, I think it's a good thing. It is. It could be a good thing. Yeah. I think I make the past two years, I make friends with regrets. We become friends. We have buddies now. I hope you spend more time with them. I don't know. So yeah, do you often?
Yeah, but I think when we talk about regret, I think the number one question that I always have in my head is do you often look back on the regrets that you have? I wouldn't say I often look back, but when some stuff happens, then you will look back and say, oh, maybe I could have done things differently, but not often. I would not say so. Do you do that often? Yeah, I think I do often look back on my regrets. It changed from time to time.
I think regret is one of my, used to be one of my least favorite emotions because I often look back on regrets and I ruminate around it. I'm like, oh, I wish I have done this. I wish I have done this differently. And it goes into like the rabbit hole of ruminating and self sabotage, you named it. But I think in the past two years, especially after I read the book, and I think we will reference quite a lot from that book is from Daniel Pink talking about regrets. The name is the power of regret.
How looking backward move us forward. And I think it really changed my idea of regret because I used to think is a terrible thing. I hope I have no regrets because you know, like people always say, you know, live without regrets, like no regrets. And I'm like, oh, I have so many regrets. I think I should have done better on this and that. But I think now I changed my idea of it's a fundamental emotion that we have that we needed to, it helps us to make better decision moving forward.
So I still now I still look back on my life and I'm like, yeah, I could have done this differently. How differently not to make the same mistake again. But I think now I just, it's like a, it's such a shorter look back. I used to go back on the things that I wish I could do differently and then go dive into it for like a long time. But then now because I have make a meaning out of it, I do look back on things that, oh, I wish I'd do it differently. But yes, I learned this. That's my takeaway.
And I end from that period. Would you say you look back at like a certain regret multiple times or is it like different things in your life? Certain regrets. And certain regrets do stand out to you. Yes. And we will touch base on that in a few minutes when we are talking about different regrets. There are four main types of regrets that are categorized by Daniel Pinkett. It's a research that he did, like he asked all the, I think he got like 20,000 response on people, what regrets they have.
And then he categorized it. It's really helpful in naming the regrets because that's the first step of awareness, which we always talk in this podcast. And we'll go through each type of regret. Maybe from our lives, we can think of an example that will help us understand more about our own regrets and help listeners to kind of think of their own regrets in this category as well. Yeah. And the first type is foundation regrets. You seem so happy about foundation regrets. It's a neutral tone.
Foundation regrets. Does it sound more sad? Yeah. Okay. Foundation regrets. Yeah. So what is foundation regrets? So foundation regrets are regrets that are failure to be responsible, conscientious or prudent. It can be our education, finance or health regrets as example. So one of the most common theme is if only I have done the work. So I think from the book it said, oh, if only I have take, look after my health or if only I look after my health and not smoke or drink too much.
I think that's an example of foundation regrets. So do you have any? Oh, definitely. I think the most, I think one that comes up quite frequently past few months is that I wish I had taken the learner's permit earlier. Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the foundation regrets that I have recently. And there's not much I can do about it. It's just more about, okay, I have to do it and wait. I have to live with the consequence. But the lesson, you did take the lesson away is to start things earlier.
If you can. I wish I learned that. I mean, I was certain that I probably do do that, like not waiting, not pushing stuff back. But on certain levels, I still make the same mistake. So I haven't completely learned from it. I would say I will still repeat the cycle. It's easier said than done. Yes, absolutely. I think because one, we are counsellors and we're doing this podcast, so we are more aware of the things that happens around us. We are more focused on our emotions.
We're just talking, oh, we don't, our people don't want to hang out with counsellors because we psychoanalyzing everything. But because it's our job, so we are more conscious. But as you said, it's easier to said than done. In that moment, you might, you don't really immediately take lessons out of the regret. Might take a few times and you learn from it. Yeah. I do have the same regret that I could have got it earlier, the license. It's enough though. No, it's not good enough. It's good enough.
I could have done earlier. I think that goes back to us being very harsh on ourselves as well. Yes, but I do have the same regret. I think another regret that I have on like foundation regrets is if only I have put more effort in studying back in high school. Oh, that's a big one. Yes. I agree. I think it will be a very different experience if I got into uni in Hong Kong, like the subjects that I want to do. But it's not like a regret because I don't enjoy the career that I'm doing now.
Absolutely not. I'm very grateful and thankful for my parents' support and myself of sticking into this pathway. But I feel like there's nothing you can go back in that age of working hard and do your best academic wise. Yeah, I wish I had done that as well. I think putting in the hard work and learning, I felt like I didn't learn anything in high school. So I don't know any like hard science like biochemistry, physics. Like I honestly, I don't know much about it.
So I wish I had learned that, have that knowledge. Yeah. It's not really about grades anymore. I think I just want to learn. Learn like common sense. Well, it's not common sense. A huge tangent here, but I think I need to share. I used to think we have free throat. Huh? Yeah, free throat. One is for solid food. One is for water, like liquid, and one is for air. Yeah, how ridiculous that is. And I only know I'm wrong until I'm 18. That's why I say common sense. Okay, maybe that.
Okay. Because I didn't study biology and I'm really bad in chemistry. Just science wise, it's terrible. Same. But not to this point, hey. But it is terrible and yes, I wish I start learning sooner. That's actually very cute. It's like one for solid, one for water, one for air. Because my mom always tell me like, don't eat and drink because I have a tendency of not chewing. I just swallow with water because I'm, I don't know. I don't know what I'm thinking as a children net.
I don't know what she's doing, but I don't like to chew. I just like to eat and then swallow it with water. And my mom is like, don't do it because it will go into the wrong path. I'm like, oh, okay. So and I know that's one is for the air. So I was always curious. My brain is actually, or like my body is so smart that it can flip. How can they know I'm eating? So wait, wait. So if you're eating medicine, so when you swallow it, it will just go separate ways? Maybe that's how I thought.
I don't know. That's so cute. I don't know what I'm thinking, but I just didn't really think deep into it. I just thought, okay, I have free throw. One is for air, one is for food, one is for water. Awesome. Human body is amazing. Very smart. That's actually another way of thinking it because our bodies are quite smart. Yeah, not that, but that's a big tangent. And the next type of regret is boldness regrets. It's basically the chances that we didn't take. If only I had taken that chance.
If only I have done the things that I didn't do. And I don't know if the audience agree, but I absolutely agree as usual. What you're saying here, of course you agree. That we always regret on things that we didn't do, instead of things that we did. At least for me, I believe in that. And I hope that as a value, not value, as a reminder when I'm making decisions, if I'm thinking, oh, should I do it, should I not do it? I would say I'll regret if I don't do it. So do it now.
I think most of the time I live by that as well. But do you have any boldness regrets? Yeah, that's the thing. Because I live by that, I can't think of one. Can you think of one? I think I have one. I think it's an opportunity that I could have taken more responsibility in the role. And I didn't. I do regret because I would wonder, oh, what if I have taken that extra step? Where will I be now? I have to think of that.
It's not like a strong regret to me because I'm very happy of where I am right now. And it's also not a regret that I always in my head. I need to think a bit more time to figure out this regret. But yes, I agree with you that we always hold that thought of you always regret on things that you didn't do, the things that you did. So I always push myself to treasure every opportunity that I have. Now that you're looking back, like you have identified this as a regret.
Looking back, what stopped you from actually taking up that role? Just don't believe I have the ability to do so. And I've heard people said, if you don't have that talent, then don't take it. Like that's a saying in Cantonese, like if you don't have the size of the head, then don't take it the head. I don't know. I'm terrible at translation. Don't have that big head. Don't have that big head. Don't have that big head.
If you don't have that size of, like it means you have a small head, but you're trying to wear an oversized hat. Doesn't fit. And I'm a people pleaser. So, duh, I listened. It really tackles my self-confidence at that time. But yes, I would wonder where I would be at or what would I have gained from that extra steps if I didn't self doubt at that moment. But my takeaway from that is every experience leads to different things. What about you?
Actually thinking back, it's not really not a big regret because I had to think very hard. So I had the chance to play a game, like a soccer game for the school because the person who was usually the goalie, she's injured so she couldn't play in the game. And they asked me if I wanted to. And I immediately said no because I didn't believe I didn't have that ability to do so. Now looking back, it's like if it was offered to you, why not just try it? Even just trying it, it's okay.
If you don't like it in the future, that's fine. But just trying it. Yeah. And moving on, I think, yeah, boldness regrets, I think for both of us, it's not a big thing that we keep going back to. But like moral regrets, I think in the book it says it's one of the biggest category of regret where we do think about it a lot. So moral regrets is when you had a choice and you took the low road. So it's more along the lines of if only I had done the like quote unquote the right thing.
Right thing, yeah. And it's representing only 10% of the total regrets. It's the least percentage, but we think about it the most. Yeah. Why do you think so? I think that personally, I value doing the right thing. And I think we are human being, we are wired to do the right thing. Wanting to do the right thing. Yeah. Wanting to do the right thing. Yes. And we can't undo it, that's the thing. Yeah. Like the damage is done. Do you want to share your moral regrets? I can.
You want me to share first? Yeah, why not? I mean, eventually it gets to you. Like we only have two people here. This podcast is so raw. It's too... It's too uncomfortable, but hey, we are sitting with it and we are learning. Actually this regret, I don't think I've told anyone about it. It's definitely associated with like shame. I could have done better. And I know what the right thing is and I didn't undo it. So back in grade four, during recess time, I remember exactly where it happened.
It was right outside the tuck shop. I was just walking by, but myself, there were two younger kids, I think a grade lower than me. They were walking towards me. I think they were going to stop at the tuck shop to buy something. Her wallet fell and I just kicked it. I do not know who they are. They don't know me either, but I just kicked it. Like for no reason. And then I laughed and walked away. At that moment I was like, Oh, what am I doing, man? There's no meaning to it.
Is it one of those like impulsive thoughts that you have? Maybe, maybe I just acted on it. Right. But you're a kid, so you don't have that. I did not have that awareness. Awareness. Yeah, I did not at all. I tried to avoid like not think about it. Yeah. And then after recess, I got called by my homeroom teacher. She said, Oh, can I talk to you for a second? And I had no idea like what it was about. I thought it was about my tests. And she was like, Oh, I was looking down from fourth floor.
And then she was like, Oh, I saw something happen. Do you have anything to say? So she just asked me. And it's like even more regrets. It's more about I lied again. Yeah. It's to cover the shame that I had of myself. And then I blamed it on her saying, No, you you you mistake me with someone else or something like that. I don't remember what exactly I lied about. Yeah. How I lied. But I remember lying about it. To this day, I still remember it. Is it something that is still very memorable?
That's so vivid in your mind. I would say kicking the water was a bit. Yeah, very vivid. But I would always think about it when someone talk about bullying. So it's like bullying plus lying. Yeah. That's something you. At first, I didn't think it was bullying because I associate like bullying with more like a group for laughs or for some purpose, some meaning behind it. But I think recently I do not recently, but like quite a few years, I would say I associated with that to bullying.
And it's unfortunate because I can't I don't know if it made an impact on them. Probably like, like someone random just kicked your water. Like it's at least some memory. And it's unfortunate that I don't remember who they are. I can't apologize. Yeah. So it's something that you I have to live with. Accept it and remember and be a better person. Yes, absolutely. I agree. I think that makes it more significant because the damage is done and you have hurt others cannot undo it.
You have to live with it and it goes against a lot of the things that I feel like I stand for being a kind person. And that's definitely not a kind behavior. So I regret that. You know what you have to live with and move on from it. And it's your turn. I have to. Okay. I think when you when you're talking about primary, then I could have think of one, but I think it's very different from my second one as well. I think my first one is I got back my dictation. I don't want it's always dictation.
I hate dictation. And I remember exactly I got 90 marks. I got two wrong. I changed the answer. I just used the eraser and change and get back to the teacher say, hey, you mark it wrong. And then the teacher did not immediately point it out. She just take my book away. It's similar to you. She asked me to see her during the recess and I just thought, oh, maybe I don't know. I don't remember what I'm thinking, but I might think I'm so smart that I fool the teacher or whatever.
And then she said, oh, is that something that you want to say? And I'm like, no. And then she's like, I know you changed the answer. Do I admit here or do you want me to call your parents? And then you're like, oh, please don't call my parents. Please don't. And I admit it. And it's like a shame. You're right. It's a shame that carries to now that you want to be an honest person.
And I think that's the lesson that the good thing about moral regrets is often a heavy lessons that carries on that benefits you in a long run. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, when you're talking about that, I do remember cheating on the test. I cheated on Christian ethics. Hi, Ronick. Did you get caught? In front of everyone? Not in front of them. So like a pretty great teacher, like who was, oh, you want to stay back? He just loved asking you to stay back. I know it's the scariest thing.
If if there's teachers listening. I don't know. You can still say it. I think it's I think that's how we learn. Everyone have to experience that. Yeah, I'll take it back. You're doing great. You guys are doing great out there. I mean, if there's a meaning behind it, yes. Yeah. But if there's no meaning, then no, don't just randomly do that and scare students, scare kids. But anyways, he asked me to stay after after class. He didn't question me. He didn't ask me anything.
He was I think he handled it very well. It's more not about getting into trouble. It's more about he knows. I understand it's something that I shouldn't be doing. And that matters more than getting a zero on my grade. So this time it's a shame that you instilled on yourself. And both times it was similar. I was ashamed in the bullying part as well. But this one was more only from myself. Yeah, I do think teacher pointing it out is very important because I do cheat in high school.
I think some people, most people, I don't know. We don't verbally say it out loud that yeah, I cheat, but I do cheat in high school and I never get caught. I never see it as a regret because I never get caught. I didn't have that shame. I feel like it's a success. So it's very important if in the long run to benefit us as a person getting caught, of course, at that moment is shame is anger, but that's too good for you as well. Yeah, I agree.
Because I've never seen, I've never thought cheating in high school as one of my regrets because I never get caught. But now thinking back, if I get caught, I would be even make it more memorable. What was your second one? No, my second one is more like harms doing to other people that I would say is bullying. It's just I have bad intention towards the other person. I choose not to share explicitly on what happens until now.
I still never apologize for doing, but what teach me is be nice to people. Even though you are not friends with the person, don't do harm to people. I think that's what I take away from it because I feel really bad. I feel I'm such a terrible person. I self sabotage on, I never thought Natalie is such a terrible person. I thought Natalie is always a nice, decent human being. And that is the most harmful thing that I could do to one person.
It might not be very harmful to that person, but very harmful to myself when I think of I have done that thing. Yeah, be nice to people, people. We all deserve some more decent human being in the world. And I always believe people are nice to begin with and there must be certain things that makes you do that, but that's not an excuse for it. That's my second one. Moral regrets is so uncomfortable to say. It's because I think it does relate it to a lot of shame.
Yeah. And even when you were saying that, like a lot of regrets does come into my mind. And you cannot undo it. That's the thing. You cannot undo it. Yeah. And to this day, a lot of stuff that I've done wrong to other people, I would say I don't apologize for it. I haven't apologized for it. And that's the thing. Regret is one thing, whether to apologize or not is another thing. And a lot of time apology is for ourself, not for the person. It's to make us feel better about ourselves.
And that doesn't mean not to go apologize, but we shouldn't assume that the other person will forgive you. We'll stop from there. Next one. Connection regrets. Yeah. Connection regrets is when you neglect the person or the people who matter to you. So it's more like if only I had reached out to this person. I can 100%, 200% relate to this. When I was reading the book, you're like, yes, yes, yes. This is me. I feel so naked when I was reading this book.
I feel like it speaks to me in every single part of it. I think connection itself is very important to us as a human being anyway, which I wouldn't surprise if connection regrets is another important regret that we have. Do you have any? Yeah. I'll be surprised if you say no. You want to go first? I think especially like, I don't know about you, but I'm definitely avoidant type person. I think I have several friends that I care about them.
I value our friendships, but because of my avoidance, my, I don't know, I don't want to blame on my avoidance or whatever. I just didn't reach out. I'm just too scared to reach out. I have bright leather that I didn't give it to the person. I have draft message that I didn't send. I have practice conversations that I didn't act it out. It's such an avoidant. I'm laughing cause I agree with you. I have the same thing. I feel yeah.
So yes, I think moral regrets and connection regrets is the importance is similar that if only I had reached out, but I think the good thing about connection regrets is you still have opportunity to act on it. You always have. I don't know, just that's what I think like moral regrets, the damage you have done, but connection, you always have the chance to reach out, but do I want to? No. Do I want to? Yes. But have I did it? No. It's contradicting to yourself.
The one side of you that really wants to, but a side of you that is the ambivalence in between. So yeah, that's my side. 200% agree. No, like no, seriously, I do agree with you. The connection regrets is that I do practice conversations that I know I will never have letters that I know I won't send. I think it's, I don't send them or I don't actually connect with them. It's more about the uncertainty along with it. And you don't know what to expect from them. That makes it scary.
Yeah. And for all these like connection regrets, I can be completely honest with you. I have sit on my bed overnight overthinking about it like, Oh, should I do this? Should I do that? Because as I said, it can be good, but it can be bad because there's always chances for you to do it and you choose not to do it yet. So that's why I said it's one of my least favorite emotions to begin with. But what I see it differently now is it doesn't matter whether you defer the action that you take.
What's important is what you take out of it and what I take out of all those connection regrets is you know what kind of friends that you want to be. And if the similar situation happens, think back on all the previous connection regrets that you have. It might help you to make better decision. That's my takeaway from after reading this book.
I think all these regrets allow you to learn from your experiences and help you person better self and for honestly for connections like better friend, better daughter, better sister, like just any role that you have. Just a better person in general and be the person that you want to be. And I think we have mentioned before we start like regret, it seems like a bad thing. It is a bad emotion, but good for us in long run. And I saw a graph in the book, The Power of Regret.
And if the audience is interested in regrets, I highly recommend this book. It's really mind-blowing and inspiring. Anyway, the graph say three options for responding to regret and we have mentioned all the four regrets. That's three response in the graph. So the first response is ignore, you know, you feel the regret and you choose to ignore it. The result is it is a delusion. The regret is still there. It's only you choose to ignore it. It's a delusion.
The second response is feeling is for feeling. So you can feel the regret and you keep feeling it. That's despair. Like it is rumination is into that rabbit hole that you just digging deeper and deeper. But what we try to bring out of today's episode is the third response. Feeling is for thinking that you know that regret. The first step you name that regret, that awareness. The second is think about it. What is the takeaway of that regret? And the next step is thinking is for doing.
So what will you do about it? Like what lesson that you take away and that will lead to better decision, improved performance and deeper meaning. And that's the ultimate goal of regrets. That's the benefits of regrets that it looks bad on the surface, but in deep it beneficial to you in the long run. And if you only see on the surface of feeling is for ignoring that you ignore the regret, it will always be that little monster that haunts you from time to time.
Your regrets can be your friends that guides you to better decision. So yeah, I'm very thankful that we have this conversation. Very thankful that I saw this book as well. Really helps me climb up off that rabbit hole and have a whole new perspective, like really life changing. And I think this whole conversation that we have, I want to say before when we were preparing for it, like I was like, what's my regret? Like I couldn't think of one.
But I think mainly it's because I would say my response is usually ignoring it and not thinking it exists. But yeah, diving deeper, you do realize that there are regrets. Well in my life, there are regrets and it's acknowledging it, feeling the regrets that I had in my past, thinking of how I can benefit from it. As I said in the beginning, I'm already friends with regrets. We are besties now. I'm not sure about besties, but we are great companions. Oh, yeah. Great companion.
Not a little monster that haunts you anymore, but a great companion that leads you to better pathway, better decision, better performance. So listeners, we covered mainly the four types of regrets, foundation regrets, bonus regrets, more regrets and connection regrets. And to increase your self-awareness, you can go deeper like how we did throughout this episode.
Just thinking deeper on some of the examples in your life that matches the type of regrets in these categories and how it can benefit you as well. I think that's it for today. If you resonate with our podcast, you can share with your friends and this will be a very interesting conversation between your friends as well. Because we normally don't touch on regrets. And regrets is different from disappointment.
It's not someone that did something wrong to you, but it's something that you did it wrong to yourself. It's on you. So as you said, it's a shame that we don't usually share it with people. And you can tell from the whole conversation that we have, it is very uncomfortable. We don't really know we should share it or not. And sometimes I didn't even share explicitly what it is. But if you want to know, I can tell you after the podcast.
But yes, it will be a very interesting conversation to have with friends as well. We highly recommend it. Yeah, so that's it. If you want to know more, get the book. It's great. It changed my life. I think that's it for today. I hope you guys have a great week. So if you like our podcast, give us a comment, give us a review. Follow our Instagram, the whyinyourtwenties.podcast. We will post additional information on top of our podcast if you want to know more. So yeah, that's it for today.
And we will see you next Wednesday. Bye.