Reflections and Revelations: Celebrating Three Years of Exploring Wellness Paradox

This paradox , as I view it , is the trust , interaction and communication gap that exists between fitness professionals and our medical community . This podcast is all about closing off that gap by disseminating the latest , most evidence-based and most engaging information in the health sciences .

And to do that , in this very special third anniversary episode , I'm joined by my good friend , Nate Langley . You may remember Nate from previously on the podcast , when he came on to talk about a topic that he was very passionate about .

Today , the roles are going to be reversed and he's going to talk with me about a topic I'm very passionate about , as we'll talk about in the interview . Nate was really the person that inspired me and pushed me to do this podcast in the first place , so I thought there'd be no better person to interview me for the three-year anniversary episode .

So in this conversation , Nate is going to probe me about what I've learned about the wellness paradox over these three years . I want to thank all of the guests who have came on our episode over these three years to help contribute to the learnings that I'm going to talk about with Nate .

I also want to thank all of you our audience who have listened , who have shared , who've applied the principles that we've learned here on the Wellness Paradox . I truly hope you enjoy this conversation . I hope the past three years have been insightful for you .

Any information we'd like to share with you from today's episode can be found on the show notes page , that's by going to wellnessparadoxpodcom . Forward . Slash episode three zero , zero , zero . Please enjoy this conversation with myself and Nate Langley . Today I'm delighted to be joined by my good friend , Nate Langley .

Nate , thanks for joining us again on the Wellness Paradox .

So I said to Nate and , thinking about the three-year episode , I could think of no better way than to have somebody who knows me really well , who pushed me and inspired me to do this podcast , to come back on and interview me . And so that's what's going to happen , nate . We're going to turn over the interviewing microphone , if you will , to Nate .

But , nate , before you actually launch into the interview , you were on the podcast a very , very long time ago and you gave an introduction of who you were then . But as we were talking before we got in the air , you were one of the most continually evolving human beings I've ever met .

So before you start asking me questions , I think it'd be good to tell our audience a little bit about the person on the other side of the mic who's going to be doing the interviewing today .

For my you know , high school time and college time I was one of those souls who was sort of searching to try to figure out , like , what do I want to do , what do I want to be ?

And I really felt like the entity that you created Applied Fitness Solutions was the perfect thing for me to sort of play in the sandbox , if you will , of how to help people . And I spent 10 years with you in that , in that realm and in habit change and in wellness and health , and we had some really , really fun times during that time .

We had a few tough times too , which I think was was fortifying for us , but in the time since we worked together , I've really I've continued to just kind of excavate the layers of in what capacity do I want to help people ? So when I was with you , it was very much more in the physical realm , which I'm still very passionate about .

Now it's a little bit further on the emotional and sort of mental side . So I work as a transformation coach .

The specific work that I do involves helping people to really tap into their own intuition and sort of undo the programs that perhaps have been put there by external forces , and really a lot of times it ends up being like the second chapter of our lives after we've gone out and explored a little like figure out , hey , what do I want to do with my time and

intention and energy . So it's very rewarding in a similar way that it was for us , and I actually believe that vitality is that sort of the gateway into that personal development work and this for me is just sort of the , the next step in that process of helping people get to their purest selves .

But I could think of no better person to have this conversation with , because you know me so well and , as you said , you've kind of transitioned into this transformation coach that is helping people on their journey and ultimately , the wellness paradox is a journey .

I think that became very clear to me as we've gone through these three years is that this is something that is ongoing and it's a collective movement and I don't even know if it's a point in time that we'll ever reach . It's just something that we're always kind of striving for .

So I'm grateful to have you in my life and I'm grateful to have you be able to conduct this interview , and I think our audience is in for a real treat . Nate is also a fellow podcaster as well .

I recently saw him do a podcast on the top of a mountain , somewhere little bit hyperbolic , but you were in some beautiful scenery in , I'm presuming , somewhere out in Arizona where you live , doing a podcast at a mountain , and I can't help but think like , wow , you could really do a podcast anywhere nowadays if you could do one from a mountain .

So , um , equally excited , though , to be inside four walls having this conversation with you . I promised .

You just you just have that type of personality where if you put your mind to something , you're going to give it your all and you're going to make it work , and this has been evidence of that . So I just want to congratulate you . I think it's like one percent of podcasts make it as far as yours have even less .

I'll have to look that up , but I know , know it's very small , so great work on that . But you referenced a little bit .

You know the coaching work that I do , so the name of my coaching is called getting there , and it is this concept of you're talking about the wellness paradox and , hey , is this thing that we're ever really going to completely solve or are we just going to continue to strive to make it better ?

And that was the genesis of this conversation that you and I had a few years ago . You were at this sort of transition point in your life some things that happened with COVID that maybe we'll get into , maybe we won't . But it sort of came down to this conversation between us where I said hey , mike , what do you really care about ?

What do you want to try to help you know address in this world ? Where did the awareness come from for you ? Yeah , for you , and those who know me well know that it started , you know , really early on in my life and in my formative teenage years , as the people that know me well and who've been around me have heard me tell the story .

You know I was a really overweight kid when I was in high school . I graduated high school 100 pounds more than what I am right now , and I was . I was picked on for being overweight , like , I'm sure I'm sure many people have been picked on for their body either being too big or too small .

Our good friend , jared , he , was the other end of the spectrum and so that high school was not the most socially safe space for me and it wasn't the best emotional time for me .

And I found this little YMCA gym in Westland Michigan and I found a mentor who just put me under his wing and made me feel safe and made me feel welcomed in a social environment , really for the first time in my life . I always say I have a great relationship with my parents , but when you're 13 years old you can on some level , care less about that .

You care about the social relationship that you have with your peers . And this guy , al , made me feel welcomed . He made me feel a part of a community . I always say that my nickname at school was Fat Stack . That was my nickname . That YMCA gym was the first place I ever felt like I could be Mike and that was really , really powerful for me .

And so as I went on through my career into fitness because it was something that at the time I didn't realize how important it was to my overall well-being I mean , when you're 15 , 20 , even 25 years old , you're still not that reflective as to what drives you .

But as time went on , I started to realize that physical activity and exercise was not just a gateway to my physical health , but it was also a gateway to my mental and my emotional health . And I thought , if this is true for me , this must be true for so many other people . How can I bring this to the world ? Which is what got me to start .

Afs was creating that safe , inclusive environment to allow people to move in a way that was meaningful to them but also , you know , made them feel whole , not just physically but mentally and emotionally . But then to the point of our conversation .

We got to this point where , like you know , afs was undergoing some post-COVID changes and I started to realize that just what we were doing in our small little tiny corner of the ecosystem wasn't enough for me . It wasn't enough to just create a little community of this .

I wanted to amplify what I felt so passionate about , but I didn't know all the ways to do that . So that was kind of the question to be solved behind the wellness paradox how do we take something like movement that is such fundamental medicine for the body , the mind , the spirit , the soul , and how do we get access or give access to that to more people ?

And it just struck me it had to be part of healthcare and it wasn't , broadly speaking , and that was the problem to solve .

And while that is an important part of healthcare don't get me wrong it seemed like there was a much more fundamental layer that needed to exist that prevented illness , injury , disease , psychological suffering and so on , and that was just missing from healthcare .

It was like there's no one in healthcare who is responsible for helping us move and be physically active . Physical therapists aren't Physical therapists do a great thing , but they're there after you get injured . Athletic trainers same thing . Occupational therapists same thing .

Even exercise physiologists , as they currently exist in healthcare , exist in a cardiac rehab setting after you've had a heart attack or a stroke . So in my mind it just made sense . My intuition was that if no one is responsible for this , if no one is accountable for this , then it's never going to get addressed . That was one piece of it .

The other piece of it is this very real feeling I had that I've since validated by a lot of our great guests that , broadly speaking , the general public doesn't trust the fitness industry . We know that 15% to 20% of the American public engages with the commercial health and fitness clubs .

That's been the case for literally 40 years , and so there's this big cross section of the American public that just doesn't engage with us and they don't trust us . And there's lots of reasons for that that we've talked about on the podcast .

But healthcare , specifically your healthcare provider , is , on survey after survey , regularly seen as one of the most trusted entities in someone's life .

So I knew that the conduit to getting people more physically active was engaging the providers through which they had the most trust as I hear you talk about that , I'm I'm going to this thought of responsibility , of responsibility in terms of .

Are we personal trainers that just exist to get the fit , fitter and the healthy healthier , which I think in a lot of cases is kind of how we viewed ourselves always going after the enthusiasts , kind of how we viewed ourselves always going after the enthusiasts or are we true fitness and exercise professionals that have an obligation to be able to get the masses

moving ? So I think the first responsibility is just a paradigm shift in our mind is that we aren't just the 1980s , 1990s personal trainer anymore . We're every bit as much of a healthcare professional as physical therapists , registered dietitians , so on and so forth . So that's the fundamental shift , I think . And then there are things that build from there .

So what do you think they're dealing with on that front ?

I think when I talk to fitness and exercise professionals and I say , think of yourself as a healthcare provider , I see the look back on their face of like , well , no , I don't exactly know if I'm qualified or if I'm capable , and sometimes I don't think we give ourself enough credit . So that's part of it .

The other part of it is a willingness to take risk and challenge the status quo . Don't get me wrong . The 15% to 20% market share that the fitness industry has from an economic perspective is powerful , I want to say . The latest stat I've seen is that the global fitness industry is worth like $100 billion . So I mean , that's nothing to shake a stick at .

So the current paradigm that exists in fitness and with fitness and exercise professionals is working to some degree . If you are going to make this shift , you have to embrace the fact that it's going to be uncomfortable . You're used to working with this type of person for this type of reason . So the fit 35-year-old that wants to run a marathon .

And now we have to embrace how do I communicate to provide value to and ultimately produce outcomes in someone that doesn't like to exercise , doesn't really want to exercise and has a lot of challenges associated with exercise .

I mean you used to say this to me all the time when you marketed our business like how am I supposed to get somebody interested in what we do that isn't interested in what we do ? And it is embracing that risk and kind of being willing to step out on the ledge and realize that when you're there you are capable .

So I think it is this aversion to the unknown and charting a path that's been less followed for 50 years , but a path that is eminently needed and also , as we've highlighted on the podcast , it's a path that other people are following . I think that's the best thing this podcast has done for me is it's shown me that I'm not alone .

I'm not the only one on this quest . There are people who are on this journey with me , and that's a very empowering thing .

You know , one of the highlights of the wellness paradox was interviewing Dr Kenneth Cooper from the Cooper Clinic in Dallas , texas , and for those of you that haven't listened to that episode , dr Cooper is the father of modern aerobics .

When he started practicing medicine , they were threatening to take away his medical license because he told people to run , because they said that he was gonna kill more people than what he could help . And that was only back in the 1960s . And now Cooper has built up this amazing facility in Dallas and they're growing .

They now have Cooper Tracts programs that they're actually implementing in various fitness centers around the country . The Medical Fitness Association is another group that is doing this healthcare integration piece very , very well . We've had their CEO on and we've had many people from the MFA on the podcast .

They are literally kind of the living embodiment of Bridging the Gap . And then I think we've had so many and this is maybe the most heartening thing We've had so many physicians on the podcast from the American College of Lifestyle Medicine .

In fact our first guest , Tom Refai that , incidentally , you introduced me to by way of your girlfriend , then girlfriend , now fiance Tom Refai our first guest on the Wellness Paradox was somebody who was from the American College of Lifestyle Medicine . And if the MFA Medical Fitness Association is the F in MFA , I feel like the ACLM is the M in MFA .

They're the medical part and they're working from the provider side on this .

So I see these pockets of greatness existing but they're somewhat siloed from each other and I think that's one of the things I've tried to do with the podcast is kind of tear down those silos and there's no kind of general standards and practices or no policy and system level work that's been done to really wrap all of this together .

But the last group I'll mention where this is greatly underway is with the Physical Activity Alliance .

One of our early guests was Lori Witzel , who's a senior policy advisor to the American Heart Association as well as the Physical Activity Alliance , and since having her on the podcast I now sit on the Physical Activity Alliance Board of Directors and our it's Time to Move initiative .

Its goal is making physical activity assessment , prescription and referral the standard of care in medicine , and they're working on the policy and systems level work .

So there's a lot of great work that is being done and I often talk about all this great work as being the best kept secrets that need to get out there because it's happening and if we can amplify it through this podcast , then hopefully it brings more people underneath the tech to go on this journey with us .

So back to that idea of responsibility where do you feel the responsibility falls on their side of this whole equation ?

They are stuck in a Byzantine bureaucratic mess of a system that at this point it's so complicated and I know you've been through your own health journey and you've seen a lot of it it's so complicated that I don't even know where we start to begin to undo the complexity on a bureaucratic level that is healthcare in this country . That is a separate conversation .

That's probably a separate podcast .

But I think the providers know that their patients should be physically active , want to be physically active , want them to be healthy , but they have 10 to 15 minutes in an appointment with somebody where they're mostly feverishly typing inside of electronic health records to make sure they hit all the right notes , to make sure they can actually get paid for their

service . So the responsibility is not what I've heard some people say is to realize that physical activity is important for your patient's health . I've not met one health care provider that thinks to the contrary . So we actually have to talk about what would be instrumental for them to do , and I really think it's two things too .

And I really think it's two things . The first responsibility is to be an advocate for it within your health system , within your practice .

I think if we had and this is what the ACLM is doing a great job of through a lot of different ways if we had people who were actually ringing the bell administratively , not just having a brief conversation with their patients about it , but actually saying to the administrators , to the executives , to the CFO of the health system , to the payers for that matter ,

hey , this is something we need , this is something we want , but this is something we can't provide . To be an advocate for it , I think , is the first piece . So that's piece one . Piece two , and so that would be the top-down piece . Whenever I think of change , I always think you need top-down and you need bottom-up .

So we need to advocate for top-down system level change , but we also need to advocate for and ensure that kind of grassroots change is happening , because those are examples we can take and amplify with good policy solutions , and this is where I think it is the responsibility of each healthcare provider to try to find some way to have a trusted resource in their

community that they can refer out to . I'm not expecting a physician or a nurse practitioner or other allied health professional to do the exercise prescription . It'd be great if they could , but they don't have the time and right now they don't get paid for it .

So having a trusted community resource that you can refer out to and say , hey , I know this place , I trust this place , you can go there for your physical activity and your exercise , I think that's the other responsibility . And yes , that is not a reimbursable responsibility , that is not maybe necessarily in someone's job description .

But when you think broadly that a physician's mandate or a healthcare professional's mandate is to help make people healthier , I definitely think it falls under that .

So I would say , on a top-down level , it's advocate for the need to change the systems , to grease the skids , to make this integration a reality and on the bottom-up level , at the very least have a relationship with a trusted facility or provider in your community .

How can these two find each other . That's always fascinated me , because I know they exist on both sides . Can we make an app , or what do we need to do there ?

So let's imagine for a second that physical therapy wasn't embedded into EHR and every time a physician had to refer somebody , they had to give a card , have a patient shoot the QR code on the wall , or they had to send an email Like , look , I mean , physicians are very well-meaning and they work very hard , but they just don't have the time for that .

I think I once saw that for something like for a physician to do all the work that they would have to do in a day , both administratively and from a patient care perspective , it should really take them 25 hours a day to do it , or something like that . Like it's like , so it's not feasible . So the button has to be in EHR On its most instrumental level .

That has to be what exists and we're moving towards that . I alluded to the Physical Activity Alliance earlier as part of their it's Time to Move initiative . Again , I said , physical activity assessment , prescription and referral . Until you've assessed a problem , you can't prescribe for it and you can't refer for it .

So the first leg of the stool to embedding this in EHR has been a mandate from the federal government , from an agency called the Office of the National Coordinator for Interoperability it's a really wonky term , but essentially that's the group that mandates what has to be inside of EHRs and I believe it's either starting in 2026 or 2027 , it will be mandated that

all EHRs have physical activity as a vital sign , meaning your physician will be required to ask you you know what is your physical activity frequency , what is its intensity . So that's step number one . But then there's all the other pieces in place .

So the health data element is the glide path , but unfortunately , or because it is unfortunate right now , is that it does take some manual effort . So I think it takes effort on part of the exercise professional to reach out to providers in their community and say hey , I'm here .

And it requires all the lessons we've taught in the wellness paradox to make that a trust building process , a seamless experience for the provider . And then it also takes on the flip for the provider to know where to find these people , and one of the places I always direct providers to is the Coalition for the Registry of Exercise Professionals , or CREP .

Their website is usrepsorg . This is an organization that essentially databases credentialed exercise professionals in the United States and also there's a global version of this , so it is a registry of qualified professionals .

So that's always a good place to start , but until we get this embedded in the technology , it's still going to be a cumbersome and slow process , and that's where physicians can really work on the advocacy end of things to help push for that , to get that across the finish line you know , as I hear you describe these things , it's very clear that you've been

embedded in this work for three years .

I guess what did you expect , Like what were your expectations moving into this , and how has it panned out from a change perspective , or just what's your experience been like as you've walked down this path ?

Know exactly what my expectations were going in , but what I suspected was that this is going to be a lot more of me educating the exercise professional on the need to do things differently and do things a certain way and upskill the exercise professional .

And while I think that has been part of what I've done , the thing that was unexpected for me not in just the sense of how it would effectuate this change , but also how much I would enjoy it is the policy and systems level .

Work Is this understanding that there are these structures , these invisible structures that exist in our society that either make it infinitely easier or infinitely harder for things to happen . It is the policy and systems framework that exists in all regulatory environments . And then healthcare is a highly regulated environment .

It's a confusingly regulated environment and I didn't realize how harmful that was . I didn't realize how much I would enjoy engaging in those discussions and I didn't realize how capable I was of being in those discussions . I mean this is not directly related to the wellness paradox , but I mean it's something on the policy level . Is you know ?

I testified before the House Appropriations Committee in the state of Michigan with two of my colleagues for $53 million from the state of Michigan to improve the health and wellness of Michiganders . Now we testified for $53 million . We only got $8.5 million .

I laugh when I say $8.5 million because that's more money than we ever had to think about at AFS for even a second , and I just realized that one , there was nothing more impactful that I can be doing with my time than when I was having that conversation . That day , and beyond that , I was myself and my colleagues .

We were the most qualified people to be having that discussion . And I say that because and this is not a political indictment of anyone but like lawmakers don they know how to fundraise , but they're not experts in healthcare , they're not experts in technology .

I mean , sometimes they do have careers in that right and that's great when they do , but I mean that's so few and far between . So you start to realize really quick when you're talking to either the actual lawmakers themselves or the civil servants that have worked in government for years and years and years and years .

They're great at what they do for their job , but they're not experts in your domain . So you have something that's incredibly valuable to add to them .

And when you enter into that process really trying to add value and you're doing it from the perspective of at least what we're doing , of trying to make America and our communities healthier they are not only intrigued but they are also willing to put your ideas into action if you are willing to have good conversations with them .

So that's the most surprising thing that's came out of this whole thing for me is , I was actually just thinking about this yesterday about , like you know , when do I start to get involved in politics on some level ?

Right , and you and I have talked about that before , and it's not because the political environment seems like all that stable and fun of a place to be engaged in , but it's because it's the impact that you can make from such a macro perspective .

So that was my surprise , and so I guess the learning lesson there to everyone that's listening is that you know , if me , who knew nothing of politics , policymaking or knew no one to even talk to in politics , is able to have these conversations and do these things , I think any of us can if we're just willing to put in a little bit of work and have have

passion for what we do , which is that never tends to be a in short supply in our industry . We tend to have the passion .

There was a man that I was sitting across from three years ago who was an owner of a fitness entity that had some pretty impressive success for several years . Covid happens , things are in flux , and then you start this thing . It's taking you on this journey . Where's that passion taking you ?

Um , that is more of a partnership with health care and , without getting into all the nitty gritty details , I think it would be hypocritical of me to not try to physically bridge the wellness paradox in the commercial work that I'm doing on a day by day basis . So I think that that's one direction that it's taking me .

You and everyone around me knows me well enough to know I rarely have all of my eggs in one basket and all my irons in one fire . So I think the other direction that it's taking me is in the policy and systems change arena , and that's largely through a nonprofit that I started here in Michigan called the Michigan Moves Coalition .

We're going to be working with the state of Michigan , hand in hand , to develop a first in the nation physical activity plan at the state level . That's not just written because other states have written them , but it's actually implemented with surveillance to see the impact that it's having in the community .

So I think those are the two big professional directions that I'm going in .

And then I think , with regard to the wellness paradox and kind of my presence industry-wide in my industry leadership , it's just to amplify the great work that the organizations I'm involved with are doing , like those two that I just mentioned , but also Physical Activity Alliance and Medical Fitness Association and CREP , but also amplify the other great stories that are

happening around us , because I think ultimately that's what provides the ideation and the inspiration for , you know , people that kind of press forward on this journey . I remember I did one episode with John Berardi , who's the founder of Precision Nutrition . He sold the company . He's now done Changemaker Academy and I have a lot of respect for John Berardi .

In fact , you remember how excited I was when I got him on the podcast and he said to me that when I asked him what we have to do to address the wellness paradox , the first thing he said and I'm paraphrasing here is that you might need to be prepared for that not to happen in your lifetime .

And it was kind of a bit of a punch to the gut at the time because I was like immediately because I'm like , oh my God , this guy who I admire so much is like , hey , dude , this is admirable , but you might not get there before you die .

But then it caused me to really realize is that we are on a journey here and I don't think it is going to ever be fully complete .

I always think we're going to be aspiring towards a higher level of integration between preventative health care and kind of treatment or sickness-driven health care , and so I think that has caused me to realize that it is important to live this on a day-by-day basis in the things that I do , but to tell the stories of the people that are doing this , to make

sure that all of us that are passionate about this solving the wellness paradox realize that we're not alone and we can learn from each other .

It would make a difference in this , in this movement oh man you can pick a couple if you can't decide on one .

Wow , there's so many names , you know , flooding through my head in terms of who I would like to talk to . Again , I go from a policy level and I think you know kind of big , you know , top down . I would love to have a conversation with anybody in the White House that would love to have a conversation with me . This is not a partisan thing .

I don't really care who is in the White House , I just care that you know whoever is the chief executive of our country is someone that understands , you know , the importance of physical activity . So I think Surgeon General is a good starting point . The President , the Vice President .

Ultimately , physical Activity Alliance has the CEO Pledge , where CEOs around the country are pledging to be physically active and make their workplace physically active , and we've been pushing the White House for President Biden to take the CEO pledge and I think we all know of President Biden and his Peloton and his bike and we want him to take the pledge .

And so I would say to President Biden or whoever our next president is if it's not President Biden is , let's sit down , let's have a conversation about making America the most physically active country in the world and sign the pledge and show people that you are physically active . It does start from the top .

So , yeah , those are two people I'd like to talk to . I mean , I'll stop short of saying the Pope or the Lord himself , but beyond that , I I think you got to go right to the top .

You've got this energy when you get your mindset on something that , despite any obstacle , you are relentless at pursuing things that you put your mind to . So what is that ? I just think it could be informative for people to learn about what this energy source is or what's keeping you going sources or what's keeping you going .

I think one thing about somebody like me and there's a lot of people that are like me in the world that are just relentless on things and they don't give up , and those are people I admire so much is that I think we're so busy being relentless about the thing that we want to be relentless about , that we don't spend a lot of time reflecting on why we're so

relentless . But what if I was to really distill it down to everything like for me ? Really distill it down to everything Like for me , the thing that took me out of the most pain I ever experienced in my life was exercise and movement and being part of a culture in that little YMCA gym . That literally transformed my life .

Like you know , nate , I sometimes wonder , from a physical and a mental health standpoint , if I'd even be here right now if it wasn't for that . And I think when that exists on such a soul level , like a foundational level in you it's the strongest of drives that exist .

So I think the lesson maybe to abstract from that is if you can really find and I think , and I think you've done this , you know very well with yourself If you can find that event or that incident that was most formative in your life and normally it's something that is is , is it comes out of pain and if you can find that thing and you can use that pain

or what you did to get out of pain as energy to fuel your passion , I think that is what leads to relentlessly not stopping and you don't even view it as being like . I don't view myself as being relentless or tenacious People use those words about me .

I just view it as following my passion to try to give to the rest of the world something that was given to me that was so transformative . So I think if you can dig in and find that formative moment , that inflection point in your life and what drove you through that , I think that is almost an endless renewable source of energy .

I think if the healthcare professionals , I might even say the lawmakers and the policymakers , if they could really think back to what made them , them and all of our friends in the fitness industry , why'd you get into this and really boil it down to that pure purpose , to that pure purpose , I think we might cut out a lot of the wasted energy and really start

to focus in this laser beam . And that's what I really admire about you is that every single time I interact with you , it feels like the laser beam is getting a little bit more dense .

Nate , we're going to talk and you know my goal here was to talk about what I've learned from all of our amazing guests over the three years of this podcast and what you just heard from me . Granted , it's me talking and it's you kind of helping .

You know , extract these things from me , but it's what I've learned from all of our guests over these three years . I mean , that's a synthesis of all of this . And so you know to all of those guests and to everyone that's listened to the podcast , I'm so thankful for these last three years and , to your point , I don't plan on stopping anytime soon .

So it'll be interesting to hear what happens year four , year five and beyond , because we're going to keep on this journey together . So I hope our audience found a little look under the hood of the way I think of things as insightful in this episode .

Nate , I thank you so much for doing the job of getting me to focus my laser in this conversation a little bit more intently for our audience , and I'm quite sure we'll have you back at some point for me doing the interview , but I definitely love the idea of you doing some interviews with me , so maybe that's something we could talk about as well .

So , Nate , thank you . Thank you so much .

Please be on the lookout for our next episode when it drops next week on its normal day , and don't forget to subscribe through your favorite podcast platform . Until we chat again next , please be well .