Hello everyone and welcome back to the podcast. So I actually forgot to make a proper introduction.
As we started this. Conversation with Annabelle so I thought I might as well record a quick intro and update you guys on what's been going on with me behind the scenes so I actually five days ago or was it 6 days ago No five days ago I fell on ice it was very slippery and I fractured my left arm bone so it. It has been a. Challenging couple of days and just needing to reconfigure everything and see, OK, how are we going to do this?
It's rather challenging with a baby to be 1 armed, but I am determined to see the positive of the situation. But it's just been a lot of figuring things out. Fortunately, it doesn't stop me from creating these interviews, these chats and having client client calls. So that's a plus side. On the downside, everything that I do at home is pretty challenging and some of the things that I'm doing day-to-day basis, like moment to moment
basis, I'm not able to do alone. So it'll be an interesting 8 weeks for me, which is the estimated time of like the first period of healing with, you know, the bone and getting stronger and everything. So that's that. And yeah, life's an adventure. But I wanted to give a quick intro to our guest of today's episode. So Annabelle Jean Renault is a mental health counselor with a private practice based in Geneva, Switzerland.
And she works with adults, teenagers and couples, particularly on the topics of anxiety, grief, relationship is issues, as well as with people with with people who are highly sensitive. So these are some of the topics that we are diving into today. So we're talking about relationships and what are some of the key things that make or break a relationship, a romantic relationship, right? Some of the issues and and how how to just, you know, navigate
these challenges of life. We're going to talk about grief. And so this is a very vulnerable, very like, I feel like a down to earth, real chat about these things. And I was so, so happy to have Annabelle with me. She is amazing. I loved talking with her. And I am so excited for you to hear this episode. So without further ado, let's jump right in. I'm super excited to have a friend over here from Switzerland, Isn't that right? Switzerland indeed, yes.
So if you have a new Bonjour, come up with you. French. I wanted to practice by the little bit of French that I know because I know that that is your first language, but you're bilingual, so. Quite a few languages in Switzerland, so oh. Yeah, that's true. That is so, so true. Actually the yeah, German is actually the main language, but yeah, I'm from the French part. That's so that's correct. Do you have to learn German at school? I'm I'm curious. Yeah, we do.
Up until up until a certain point. We do have to be honest. I kind of dropped out when I could because German is really hard and I didn't feel like continuing it, so I switched for Spanish. But at first we are obligated, yeah. But yeah, a lot of people in the French part don't necessarily speak German. Right. OK. Yeah, I get that. Because we also in Finland, we have to learn Swedish, OK?
So it's like a mandatory thing. And most people, again, immediately, when they can, they will drop it because they're not, you know, into it. Yeah. So people talk about like mandatory Swedish being a really like obsolete thing, but but I love languages, so I didn't have any issues with it. But fortunately, unfortunately, even though years of learning, if you don't use it, you lose it. So that's true, very true. That happened. Yeah. So I did the same same thing with French.
Actually, I should be using it a lot more too, you know, keep it fresh, keep it going. But anyway, I'm so happy to have you here. You know, I was thinking this year I really want to connect people with people from Europe. And I was thinking, OK, who do I know? And you were the first. You were the first person that came to mind. And I was like. Yeah. And actually I had just written a comment on one of your posts not too long ago about that, about being European. So yeah.
Yes, yes. So perhaps that's why it was fresh on my mind and I was like, Oh my goodness, yes, I do know very interesting people in Europe who do cool things. So you are a therapist. So please tell us a little bit about you. Just like the the gist of it. Yeah, the gist of it is I'm a mental health counselor and I work with adults, teenagers and also couples. I've been in private. I've been having my own private practice now in Geneva since 2022.
And before that, I was actually, I did my education, my master's degree in the US actually, I lived abroad for quite a couple of years, which is also why I'm quite confident in English. I first did my bachelor's degree in the UK, in London, and then I went abroad again into the US for my masters.
So yeah. And then I moved back in 2020, went to Geneva and I've been working over there in different clinics in the in the US and then opens my private practice here in Geneva. And I work a lot in English. I work in French also, but I work a lot in English because, yeah, I'm kind of part of like some international groups and because I did my education abroad also. Right, right. What's it like to start a private practice in Geneva? It's a bit scary.
I mean, it's like it can feel a bit lonely at first because you're kind of starting this brand new thing and had just moved back from abroad. You know, weirdly enough, I'm Swiss, but because I hadn't been living in the country for a couple years, I wasn't exactly sure like how to go about it. So yeah, it was a little scary, yeah.
But but I was able, I was able like to meet other colleagues just through reaching out, like honestly, randomly at first just sending emails like, hey, like, I'm, I mean, I just moved. I'm starting my favorite practice. Do you have any tips? And so slowly I started building a bit more community, which really helped. Yeah, now I'm actually part of like of this e-mail group. And I last year we actually started also that group Intervision. So I started feeling a bit more
part of a community. As well. Well, that's beautiful. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That is like, I didn't think of going into this topic, but building a community. It's it's like a it's a thing like, Oh my goodness, it's not easy always. And I bet so many women are feeling this. I feel this. I'm like, I really want more of a community. And I feel like when you do stuff online, especially in my case, and not sharing all of these interests with your in
real life friends, right? It's it's a thing, right? And. It's a huge thing. I mean community, it's one of the my big things. Also this year it's like trying to get to know more women, like minded women in the area because yeah, it's it's so important, so important. And it's not easy. Yeah, especially I think as I mean, especially for Someone Like You, yeah, who spends has a lot of your business online. But I think for a lot of people it's hard.
Yeah, yeah. What would you if someone was like you four years ago in the same position, what would you say what, what are some of the biggest takeaways that you've learned from these four years now? From these four years, just in general, like. In terms of like connecting with people, building a community or, you know, not not allowing yourself to stay stuck in that isolation. Yeah, I think unfortunately, I mean, maybe not unfortunately, but you do have to put yourself
out there. You have to try and you have to make an effort. Yeah. It's like nowadays it's, it is possible to to, you know, find people online. It's much easier than it's ever been also because of online, you know, the Internet and online groups and different things you can find. And so you do have to make an effort. And yeah, like recently I just joined Bumble BFF because I decided like that's, that's one of the ways I could maybe try
and find girls in my area. Because also I moved, I'm not living in Geneva anymore. I actually moved in with my partner a year ago. So I'm, I now live like one hour away from Geneva. So yeah. So even that, you know, it's like a small, I kind of live in a small village and it's not so easy to meet people. So in real life. And yeah, I think trying to make use of like, the tools that are available nowadays.
And it's actually also something that I think is important when it comes to. I know grief is one of the topics you want to talk about. Yeah. And I think community is also something that can be very, very important when we go through grief. Sorry to introduce the topic out of nowhere, but. I know that's good. That's good. I'm completely fine with just diving into the deep end right
away. Yeah, no. But yeah, in fact, especially also in grief, it's important to try and find some people who understand and community. And it's one of the things I also did, you know, trying to join online, online grief groups and connect with people who understand your experience. Because at the end of the day, that's what it's about, what that's what community is about. It's about finding people who understand you and understand your experience. And I think that's what we
create, I mean, as human beings. Exactly, exactly. And you talk a lot about relationships and how important healthy relationships are for, for healing, but just in general for our health. What are some of the biggest things that you've learned as now as a therapist, but just, you know, personally as a woman? Like what? What are some of the key pillars that we need to establish healthy relationships? That's a very good question. The key pillar is to establish healthy relationships.
I think #1 to be honest would be vulnerability, like the ability to show yourself as you are. It sounds cliche and simple, but it's very hard. Very, very hard. It's something I just observed in my work. Also with couples, it's like often times we have these big kind of, well, sometimes they're big, sometimes they're a bit more subtle, but we have some sort of wall up and we're trying to pretend in some way and, and protect ourselves.
Basically protects. Yeah. It's like we have a lot of protective Shields on and vulnerability feels super scary for a lot of people, for most of us. And so I think that's in order to build like healthy, sustainable long term relationships, it's so important to be able to do that. You know, for people for whom it's especially hard because they've never had like, a safe person to do that with, I think
you have to go step by step. Like you can't expect yourself to just, you know, yeah, be vulnerable right away with anyone. But it just like builds the capacity. That's another thing that I've find is just very, very important in just so many different areas in therapy and therapeutic modalities. It's like building the capacity because. Because things. Yeah, you can't go faster than your actual capacity. Like you need to. Yeah. Work in increments. So. Exactly so.
We can't really like, OK, let's just crack you open. Yeah, exactly. No, that's not how it works, especially if you've had like a big wall out for many, many years. No, you're then the defenses are going to go even more up like yeah. Absolutely. It's just like your system is like in like going on this alarm mode totally suddenly. And yeah, so there's definitely this titrating that needs to be happening. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And you know what, just to share like from my immediate life experiences, this is exactly what I've been noticing. And I've been together with my husband for around 10 years. So we're still navigating these waters. Of course. We're of course dealing with new situations with a baby. Now I have a broken arm. By the way, while we're serious, you may not know, broke a fractured my arm bone 2 days ago. So it's a challenge, let's just say that.
But anyway, I, I noticed like how much due to all of the stressors and the, you know, sleep deprivation, tiredness, all these things that we're navigating what I was going through and what I noticed in myself is this contracting. I started to build a wall, which incidentally breaking of an arm now of sort of like affected in a beautiful way because it like we couldn't go on anymore like that.
Well, there's just this thing where I felt like I couldn't talk about certain things because they were so they felt so deep and hard for me to even vocalize as a new mom and everything, you know, of things like wanting to build something online whilst you're navigating, trying to be a new mom and all of that. And so I, like I said, I'd started to build this subtle wall, the shield, because it just fell hard. And now, you know, there's always like a silver lining to everything.
And I believe that there are no sort of like accidents per SE. Like, yes, this was an accident, but my psyche also primed what happened because I made the situation. So, like, I don't know, it's just primed for that accident to happen. And weirdly enough, it has brought like, even, you know, two days. It has brought us closer. And this is just right, like,
right now happening. So it's just so fascinating to observe, OK, I had this wall that I was building up because it was hard to communicate and hard to be vulnerable. And it requires a decision sometimes. You know, as women, we just, you know, at least for me, I need to decide that I'm going at least I'm going to a little bit open up in these moments. Yeah, absolutely. It feels a little bit like a leap of faith sometimes.
I like that saying because it's like, yeah, it's like you're leaping and and trusting basically that. Yeah, leap of faith. I like it. Yeah, very true, very true. What have you noticed? Like, what are some of the biggest things that come up in in therapy with couples and perhaps even in your own experience that makes it hard to connect on like an authentic level? Yeah, that's a good question. I think there are many things that prevent people from
connecting. Definitely not being able to be vulnerable with one another. That's a big one. When people stay stuck in endless loops of arguments and trying to be right, that's a big one also. Oh yeah. The ego often. Yeah. The ego often gets in the way and like wanting to prove your point to be right.
Yeah. I mean, in the, in the way that I work, I'm trained in the Gotzman methods and they talk, one of the big things they talk about are the, because they did a lot of research on couples like throughout throughout many years and they found that there are four big behaviors that predict the demise of a relationship basically. And those four behaviors are criticism and then we have defensiveness and then stonewalling and contempt.
And so those contempt being the worst, by the way, this is the large like out of the four, contempt is like really the worst when when couples come in and and one of them is in deep contempt. I mean, I know it's going to be like probably a long journey to recover from that.
But generally speaking, like there is often this back and forth of someone criticizing the other and then the other one responding in defensiveness and being stuck in that loop basically, and having a hard time like zooming out and getting out of it. And so often people people end up getting stuck in like, well, a new situation where they're against each other instead of having the mentality that we're A-Team and that we're in this together.
And that despite like the negative cycle we're stuck in, like we're going to work through it together, Yeah. And so that's definitely huge. Wow. OK, so those were again to go through the, yeah, criticism, defensiveness, defensiveness, stonewalling, stonewalling and content. And stonewalling is basically like putting up a wall. And the silent treatments can be considered stillwalling, just putting up a wall and maybe even stop talking, which can be very, yeah, very nerve wracking for
the other person because. OK, I'm I can just raise my hand that I have definitely been guilty of that. Definitely me too, yes. So that. For me, it's actually the, the, the more so than criticism, probably. I tend to be the one who treats like, yes, me too, yeah, me. Too That that has always been. I mean, I know where it comes from. It is a dynamic that I I observed and learned. Yeah. But it's definitely something that I've been working on consciously.
But yeah, it's it's an automatic response. Yeah, it's an automatic response. It's out of fear for me, definitely. It's like wanting to protect myself and, and kind of really literally maybe like hides, like hides and, and just like not be there anymore and. How do you like? Have you noticed ways in which you find it easiest to sort of pull yourself out of that response? Like what what helps you and what have you?
What have you noticed has helped clients come out of that response of like retreat and going silent, not talking, saying? Anything sometimes you have to take some time off for yourself because maybe the interaction was a bit too triggering in that moment and like the emotion when because usually when we Stonewall we we have like a lot of physiological arousal like we feel very it might not be apparent based on your appearance, but internally
there's a lot that's happening. And so it can be helpful to just retreat and get some resources for yourself, like like basic tools to ground yourself and regulate your nervous system, those kind of things. And maybe step out of the interaction maybe for a little bit and then come back.
Because, yeah, by that point, usually there's just a lot happening internally and you need maybe a bit of space, especially because, yeah, I don't know about you, but people who tend to Stonewall, I think, And I'm going to talk now about another theory, but an attachment theory we talk about. I don't know if you're a little familiar with it.
I am a little bit, yes. Yeah, I think the person who tends to soon, well usually tends to have any more avoidance attachment style meaning like, yeah, like the tendency to want to just retreat and be by yourself and like have a hard time with vulnerability. And I know I'm more on the avoidance spectrum personally and so. Me too, yeah. So get you? Yeah. So yeah, you need to regain trust step by step. It's really helpful.
It's definitely helpful to have a partner on the other side who is able to be patient, like be patient and kind and understanding obviously. And that use, yeah. And that use any form of criticism and, and yeah, be gentle basically, because there's a lot of fear happening usually with avoidance. Yes, that is so true.
But I've also noticed that at some point, like I have to make a conscious decision that I'm gonna, I'm gonna come out of hiding because I get, yeah, potentially if I want to stay in that ego like protection mode, I could stay there. Like I could literally, I could decide. I can see myself deciding potentially I see that route. Like I could decide to stay there for an indefinite amount of time. Very true. Which at that point becomes a way of sort of punishing the
other person. For sure, it can be a way of punishing and controlling, sometimes a bit subtly. And yeah, yeah, yeah. So at some point you do have to make a choice. Yeah, yeah. And that's where I think it can be helpful if you have some sort of higher value in your relationship also like, OK, what is, what is this relationship about? Who? Who do I want to be in the long term? Exactly.
Yeah, yes. Having some sort of like higher goal or higher purpose or higher value that you can hold onto and remind yourself, like, actually love is more important in that moment for me than closure. Or like, yeah, like connection is more important for me than closure. And vulnerability is more those values and reminding yourself of that and then choosing that despite the fear you're gonna do it. That's another thing that I'm a big fan of. And it's been a big aha moment
actually for me in general. It's realizing that we have to do things despite the fear and with the fear, rather than waiting for it, you know, yeah, rather than waiting for it, for it not to be scary anymore. Like you kind of have to, yeah, be in discomfort, put yourself out there. And that's definitely another thing with with relationships and couples. It's like people realizing that, yeah, it is very uncomfortable. And sometimes they're like, why is this so uncomfortable? Like, yeah.
But it's just, yeah, it's part of it. It's part of it because it is. It is. You can't take fear out of the equation all together. And if you wait, you're gonna wait for a very long time. Most like you. You're gonna wait for your entire life, essentially. Yeah. For the fear to disappear. It's not gonna disappear, but it will. Like it will lessen.
Yes, it will diminish. It will diminish because the more you you do it, the more than your brain and body also learn that it's OK, it's safer, you know, the more with every exposure you know, you learn step by step that it's actually safe to to take the. Yeah, absolutely. OK, So let's talk about the the other three because I'm just fascinated and I think this is really, really valuable also for the listener. So criticism, criticism like why is this such? Why is this a part of those four
markers of downfall? Yeah, whatever. My is a relationship. Yeah, Criticism. It's, I think one of one of the most common behaviors that I witnessed. It's because it's so much easier. It's such a human thing to want to put the blame outside of ourselves. Like just pointing the finger outward. That's just like a yeah. It's the opposite of like vulnerability. It's the opposite of taking accountability. It's like you're the problem. You did this, you did that. You didn't do this just like
using the new language. So yeah, talking about the other person's behaviors, the other person's faults, that's science. And people think that when they're missing foreign, they think that using that will maybe help change your partner, but that's not what helps change your partner. No one likes to receive criticism. No one likes to feel like they're. Yeah, it's and that's why defensiveness and criticism kind of go together because it's kind of the automatic reaction when
you feel criticized and blamed. Like you go into defensive mode. Like, no, that's not me. And then it's like a cycle. Yeah. Yep, Yep. Of course. Yeah, that is what happens. Yeah. And I think like when I think about the moments where I've struggled with this, and I'm sure we've always, we've all been in this boat at least at some point. It's very for human and especially, OK. So my listeners and myself included, very high standards for the self.
Very, you know, most of the ladies that I talked to have been very critical of themselves, which is part of the equation for sure. Perfectionism. Perfectionism. Yeah. Being the good girl, always being the good girl and being afraid of making mistakes, for sure. And all of that. So it's part of the whole thing, totally. I have totally seen and noticed that if I'm critical of myself, it will be betrayed and will manifest in how I relate to my husband, for example.
Absolutely. Yeah. It does start with the criticism of self for sure. And the patterns, the patterns often people have observed in their in their family of origin also like with their parents and how they've been criticized potentially. And that's just been the norm. And yeah, it is how we typically it's like it's a big issue, I think for so many women. Yeah, like just the the self criticism and yeah, the projection. How do we how do we start to unravel that pattern of self criticism?
Yeah, I think self compassion is huge. Like learning to reframe the well, yeah, reframe the way you talk to yourself also, because often we don't realize that the way we were talking to ourselves and the inner dialogue we have in our heads is like really damaging and really negative. And I'm a big fan of self compassion. I think it's like, it's definitely a therapeutic tool I use a lot because I think it's, it's relevant for so many
different things. And it's like, yeah, being able to basically change, like, talk more kindly to yourself, be more understanding with yourself, like tolerate making mistakes. That's a huge one also. Yeah, How do we tolerate making mistakes? This is, I love talking about this because it's so like apropos.
It's so part of the core message of what I do is to get women out of the stuckness of I can't make mistakes, I can't be seen, and I can't create my own thing and put it out there for other people to see and criticize because I am criticizing myself so much already. Yeah. What are some of the tangible steps that we can take to move toward being more compassionate toward ourselves? I think part of it for me, it's going to be about definitely reframing the way we talk to ourselves.
And this can be like an ongoing practice of like, you know, even just affirmations of like, it's OK for me to be human. It's OK for me to make mistakes. And like, yeah, having those, those affirmations and reframes available to us and then building a new habit around that, building a new habit around that. But then it's also gonna be about, you know, eventually also exposing ourselves to the discomfort and the imperfection. Like even. And it can start in very, very small ways.
Like, it can be like, OK, I even struggle to send an imperfect e-mail, like, or like I struggle to. Yeah, like to to say the wrong thing at work or whatever. It's like just exposing yourself in increments to like imperfection. So just send this e-mail and let it be imperfect maybe. Yeah, let yourself say the wrong thing in that situation, like. And the more we practice those things, the easier it gets. I think it's like everything. The more we practice, obviously the easier it gets.
But putting ourselves in situations where we know we're not going to be totally in control also, and we're going to have to deal with like maybe being awkward, being imperfect. That's been really helpful for me. For example, for me, one thing that's been quite helpful throughout the years has been going to ecstatic dances. I don't know if you know about them, but I do. Yeah. I first encountered them when I was still living in the US, And I remember the first time I
heard about the whole concept. It's kind of basically ecstatic dance is like a space that is created with no alcohol. No, no talking actually either. And people just come to dance and you're meant to Just Dance freely and be who you are and express just, you know, move however you want to move. If you want to sit down, you can sit down. If you want to like go crazy, you can go crazy. It's really just about allowing yourself to move however you
want to move. And I remember the first time I encountered it, I thought, wow, like, that's amazing because it's all about just expression without performance. And I think that's definitely a key element. And yeah, it felt very uncomfortable the first times I went because it's like, Oh my God, if you struggle with perfectionism and being seen, especially being seen also, it's like, wow, so uncomfortable to actually allow myself to move however I want to move and not feel.
I might feel awkward about it, but yeah, so, so that's just one example that, you know, for me has helped, but there's plenty of other ways that, you know, there's plenty of other things that you can do around that and. I love that because getting into the body helps to like slow down the negative chatter in our minds. And that's like one of the biggest things that I've also talked about, like how much we are stuck in our heads for sure and not embodied.
And so I think that's a beautiful thing. And also like the accountability piece, if you want to start introducing those uncomfortable moments where you feel like patterns will come up, but you're sending an e-mail saying the wrong thing if someone is holding you gently accountable and and you know, some of the tools. OK, so how do I ground, you know, ground down in my body? How do I center myself when I feel uncomfortable?
What, what do you tell your clients to do in the moment of trigger, in the moment of OK, I see now the anxiety is coming up. So what do we do in those? That's a very good question because there's actually those kind of two mentalities that I have found helpful. 1 specifically in the moment of trigger like there's kind of one Ave. which is like self regulation.
So like using tools to self regulate and whether it's like deep breathing, like grounding, like 5 senses grounding, like there's many different tools available out there that you can learn like, in order to, yeah, like regulate your nervous system and calm yourself down. And yeah, feel more basically like lower your, your threat modes in the moment, right? Like come back into a state of regulation instead of fight or flight, because often we end up being in fight or flight in
those moments. However, something that I think I've, I've actually learned over these past, well, maybe these past two years is that sometimes I love also those regulation tools. I think they're great, but sometimes they can also be used in a compulsive manner. And I've noticed that about myself. And it's something that I've, yeah, really kind of deep dived into because if you start using those tools in a compulsive way, you're kind of reinforcing that it's not OK to have this
emotion, right? Yeah. For example, I have AI have a huge feeling coming up. I have a lot of anxiety in my body. If I, you know, try to compulsively try and make it go away by using a tool like whether, yeah, whatever tool it might be, I'm kind of teaching also my body and brain that it's not OK for me to have those big emotions. It's not OK for me to feel anxious.
And so, yeah, it's, yeah, I know self regulation is very popular and I definitely, you know, think it's, it has its place and it's useful. But I've this is one of the things that I've had kind of like, yeah, I believe a change of opinion about is that it can be, it can also become compulsive and then it's kind of like counterproductive and.
It becomes a crutch. Becomes a crutch and then you're kind of not allowing yourself to also just have the big emotion and sometimes we need to also allow ourselves to just yeah, I feel anxious right now and it's OK I'm not going to die I'm not going to die from anxiety actually. Like it's not going to kill me. This big emotion is not going to kill me. I can continue doing the thing I was going to do and do it anyway, right.
And, and continue on the road I was on while experiencing this discomfort, while experiencing this big emotion. And I don't always need to try and yeah, like for like trying and suppress it or, or regulate myself or like, it's also OK to make it go. Yeah, Make it go away. Yeah. Whether it be the, the big anxiety or the big sadness, the grief, you know, Yeah. It's, it's that's been actually a big learning moment for me. Also. It's like big emotions are not
dangerous. I know that they're super uncomfortable, but they're not, they're not. Yeah, they're not dangerous in themselves and it's OK to experience them and it's super uncomfortable. But yeah, it's something I've also learned a lot through going through grief actually. Like the depth of, of emotion and intensity you feel when you you go through grief. Losing someone, for example, it's like so, so intense and it feels sometimes like it's going to make you insane.
It feels sometimes like it might kill you, but it's like. Let's let's go into that now. So I loved first, first of all, I wanted to say I love that you highlighted the that it becomes an almost like an issue if you use tools in a compulsive manner. So that's a really, really valuable point to make because the whole point should be that emotions are not that you don't have to label them as bad or
scary, right? And then if they feel fat or scary, but they're not, you know, they're not threatening your, your life. So that is a really, really valuable point to make. And now into like, being OK because, like you said, a bit grief. And I know that you lost your mom. Yeah. And was this like a couple years ago? A few years and a half ago now. Yeah. Right. So I was that quite recent still, yeah.
It is still quite recent and the stages of grief and the initial shock and just learning to be OK with those emotions. Like you said, you felt like you could not bear it. No, it's sometimes feels you can't bear it. Yeah, it feels unbearable, literally. So it's also very complex. No, no, go ahead, go. Ahead. No, it's also so, so complex because grief, it has many different aspects to it.
You know, it tends to also bring up it can be traumatic for a lot of people because it brings up this kind of survival mode also, you know, especially for you, someone who are very close to, you know, like a mother or a partner or, you know, a kid, even. It can throw us into survival mode often does throw us into survival mode because obviously we're social beings and we rely on each other for, for life and
for survival. And, and it's like losing someone who you considered part of your tribe, you know, part of your core identity even. Definitely, it's like it's shocking. It's very shocking. And so it can feel. That's why there's often denial and shock and numbness in the beginning stages, which I definitely experienced. And a lot of disbelief also can happen, especially in those earlier stages as your entire system is trying to process what just happened.
And so, yeah, I think it's complex because there's the grief elements of like the big, big emotions and the pain. And then there's also the, yeah, the fact that they can send us into threats and, and, and survival mode. And you kind of have to address both of those things. Yeah, exactly. I think sometimes when discussing grief, there's a lot of emphasis, OK, in the discussion of, well, how did you move past that? Like, there's that. Well, how did you, you know, get
over it? Yeah, sometimes that's just like bypassing it is the whole thing. Yeah. Also, maybe it's because we have this obsession of being like, the being happy and being productive and being, you know, part of this, this 24/7 ongoing, you know, everything's going on. Absolutely everything is on in this society, right? That's the point. So when grief hits you and it's like you can't just OK, I'm just, you know, process these.
I'm, I'm, I'm a journal and I'll be fine in a year and then I'll be the happy, productive self again. No. And that's not the point, no. Not at all. That's really the point. You have to accept that it's going to be a very hard time and it's you don't know how long it's going to last and, and part of it is going to last forever. That's also the, you know, the, the reality is that if it's someone who's that close to you, you're going to miss them forever.
Yeah, going around that. Yeah, I totally agree that the the fact that we live in society where, you know, you have to be productive and happy. And, and this is often why also, not only for someone going through grief, you're already feeling totally lost and, and in pain and alone, but sometimes other people don't really know how to respond to grief also. And so you often hear people say things that and I feel a bit hurtful, like, yeah, you know, it's, yeah, everything happened.
Even saying like everything happens for a reason or you know, like they're in a better place or you'll get past it or yeah, you know, or, or even worse, if someone says like, oh, it's already been a year or it's already been two years, like. Oh my gosh, yeah, please don't use any of. Those phrases, I know oftentimes it doesn't come from a bad place. I think it's just because some of them I could have said that even before probably.
It's just that it's, I think a lot of the times it comes from the fact that the person themselves are feeling uncomfortable with how absolutely, yeah, they don't know how what to say or what to do. Because oftentimes there's not much you can say or do apart from just being with the sadness of it. And it's not something you can fix.
It's one of those things you really can't fix, you know, And so, and because we live in a society where we want to fix things, as you said, and want to move on and be happy and, and, and so that's how people respond. It's like, oh, we'll fix it, you know? But that's, you know, I think the most important thing that someone needs when they're going through that, and I know definitely for myself is just feeling held. And it's feeling like someone is saying like, yeah, that's really
sucks. That's really painful. I'm sorry, You know, And yeah, for me, I was really, I was also really lucky actually, because I met my partner just two months after my mom passed away, which was pretty crazy. And so, yeah, he, he was really also a key element for me in those moments. I bet. Yeah. Absolutely. Just sometimes holding me, you know, like, and yeah, holding me crying. That was probably one of the most healing things for me, feeling just held in my big
emotion. And especially as someone with a bit more avoidance tendencies, like that's can be definitely uncomfortable, like letting myself be held in that. And so, yeah, it's so healing, yeah. When you just when you just get to feel with someone and there is no sense of like the other person is expecting you to get over it or or is somehow expecting a change in your demeanor, your your behavior, your feelings.
So what are some of the other things that you just if someone is like wondering, OK, well, I really. Want to be mindful of this. I don't want to say things that just, you know, feel like there are these frogs that slip out and and dope. If someone is like OK, I don't want to be mindful of, but I don't really. I can't empathize because I've not been there and that is completely OK. That's completely OK.
You don't need to understand. And you can even say like even saying like, I just don't, yeah, there's no way I can understand what you're going through. But I'm here for you. Even just saying I'm here for you, you know, I don't understand what you're going through. It's, you know, yeah, it's OK if you don't have to. Yeah. Maybe also just letting the person know they don't have to perform.
They don't have to be or do anything that they can just let themselves, Yeah, experience whatever they have to experience. And that's OK. That's the most healing thing, definitely. And also I would say the other thing is, especially in the early, earlier stages of grief, a lot of people will say, and, you know, it comes from a very good intention, but will say, oh, let me know if you need anything. You know, I'm here. If you need anything, just call me. And it's comes from a very good
place. But the issue is that often, especially someone who's going through such intense this stare and and strong emotions, like, they might not, they might not, you know, take the step of reaching out. Yeah. They might. They're not going to call. They're not going to call. They might just let them isolate themselves because it just feels too much. Just everything feels too much in that moment. So they probably will try and
isolate themselves. So it might actually be a bit more helpful to take more initiative like, yeah, show up maybe a little bit more in the, especially in those earlier days, like, right, yeah. Exactly. Being more active if you care about.
Someone being a bit more active, like even just like maybe you know, leaving them some sort of some a care package or you know, even if you don't have to in their on their front door, for example, like just small acts of kindness that show initiative can definitely make a huge difference.
Yeah, Yeah, that is so true. And that's like, it's often the same if someone is in for any reason, depressed or feeling just, you know, going through this shutdown response or anything that is similar to that, it, you know, when you're in that state. And I again, because I'm also more of that avoidant type and I've retreat it's, it's so helpful if someone else is active or actively coming closer to you or opening the door for you.
So that it's like, I see this image of there's this heavy door between you and other people. And when you're in that shutdown, you don't have the strength necessarily to push open that door. So if you on the other side can do that for them, it's immensely helpful. It's so helpful. Yes, so helpful. Now that it's been like 3 1/2 years, how do you see the changes in yourself throughout this journey?
Like there have been so many things that you've learned, you've, you've written about this topic on your blog and on Instagram and there's just so much I know that you're introspective, obviously, I feel you. I feel you on that. So being very like highly aware of self. And you know, you also talk about highly sensitive people. So how does that journey? Like how do you see your own growth in the sense and, and I'm not talking about again, gain bypassing you and what are the
gains of this? And what did you, what did you extract from this experience? But there I I bet there have been changes in you. Yeah, there have been changes in me. I mean, I think I've already mentioned it earlier, but a big thing for me is the knowing that I can tolerate big emotions and I can tolerate big uncomfortable feelings. That's a huge, huge one. Yeah. Instead of running away from them, instead of trying to avoid and.
And hide, like I've actually, I think throughout this experience gained confidence. Yeah. Just gained confidence in my ability to be with discomfort because it's been so like, I'm really proud of the way I was. I was able to work through it and. And kind of, yeah, pick myself back from it because at some point I really felt like I was deep and honestly, a dark night of the soul. Like really lost, yeah, lost a
lot of my faith in life also. And so it felt like the rug had really been pulled from underneath me. And I was like just falling, you know, off a Cliff. And so I, I, I just, I think I've grown a lot in the sense that I'm, yeah, I'm proud of the journey that I've taken. And, and I think I've grown a lot in my capacity to tolerate discomfort and to tolerate big emotions and big feelings and that they're not going to kill me. Yeah, that's huge actually. That is.
And I bet it has unlocked a completely different ability to be present for someone else. Yeah, even just in therapy. But, you know, not just in therapy, in life, like in relationships. Yeah. Because like we mentioned it earlier came up, if we're feeling uncomfortable because someone else is going through something and then it's just like it can create this gap right between you and the other person.
So being being able to feel or be present and feel like Co regulate or whatever you would say. Yeah, I mean, Co regulation is huge. I mean, I think that's another piece that's so key. Like we can't go through those big things alone.
Like, yeah, but like that's another big elements I've actually taken, now that I think of it like that I've taken away from all this is, you know, it's really confirmed again, my belief in like the healing power of relationships like that, that yeah, it's I mean, I've, I've, I think Co regulation with my partner has been actually a key element in in moving through all of this for me. So many times we spent hours just cuddling skin to skin and that's such like a primal, like,
you know, yeah, primal sense of safety basically that I'm in connection with you and I'm safe. Yeah, yeah. And also, I mean, it's, it's not always easy and it's been also hard for me to find people who's who've gone through the same thing, like in person. But I've joined, as I said, like online communities of people who are grievers around the same age. And that was a very helpful tool.
So for me, like just reading other people's stories, like, yeah, knowing that other people are going through the same things, the same emotions, the same intensity that yeah, it's like the community aspects and the Co regulation and the fact that when you especially when you lose someone who's been that important to you, yeah, you just need to feel a bit more surrounded for a while. You need to feel like you're not alone. Yeah, alone. Feeling alone in it is, is really hard.
It's part of it definitely, because no one can truly understand exactly what that loss means because obviously you're the only one who went through that specific loss. But but yeah, we need each other. That's been another key take away from me like. Yeah, yeah. And I bet that has been the key aspect that helps you to sort of get back into life. Or yeah, for sure, yeah. Right. Absolutely. If someone is now struggling with that and being like, I don't like, I don't know who,
like who do I have? I feel so alone. Yeah, that's honestly so hard. And I'm sorry, you know, for anyone who feels that way. I mean, this is where like having, you know, doing therapy can be also really helpful because you're going to get that compassionate witness, you know, to walk you through those stages and all this process. Yeah. Like I think joining online communities is, you know, I'm going to say it again, but it's so accessible. You know, you don't need to.
You can, just anyone has access to that nowadays. You don't need to go anywhere and don't need to do anything. Especially if you feel so overwhelmed you don't know where to start. Just find people online who you can at least relate to and talk to about it. True. Yeah, very true. And also just, you know, if anyone is this feeling that like knowing that you truly aren't alone, like there's so many
people who feel that way. And and sometimes even just knowing that it's helpful in terms of self compassion, like I'm not the only. Yeah, like someone else is experiencing this emotion right now in this world. Like I'm not the only one who's gone through this. Other people have gone before me. Like, I know that, yeah. There's another human being who's felt exactly how I felt right now, who's feel, who's felt just as lost as I'm feeling right now.
That's. Yeah. I think even just that can provide some soothing. It's yes, Yeah. Absolutely Often I hear that grief changes the way you experience joy that it that it adds layers to it. What is your experience with that like? How does joy feel now and and how do you cultivate joy in your day-to-day life, just even in
your like recent? Experiences, I think what can happen at first is that people can feel guilty even for feeling joy again because, yeah, because maybe, you know, if you've lost someone, they're not there anymore. And so there might be a feeling of guilt around it.
But I think what ends up happening and what's happened for me is that sometimes you experience a big surge of happiness and then immediately it's kind of accompanied by, Oh my God, Like they're not there to experience this with me or why? Why can't they experience this also right now with me? Or how come they're not there to
witness me in that? I've definitely had those moments where it's like, I feel, yeah, if I'm having a really, you know, a moment with my partner, for example, where I feel so loved and I feel a lot of love. And then it kind of hits me that she, my mom's not here anymore. And so it's kind of, yeah, there's the, there's the joy and then there's, it's accompanied by the grief and by the sadness. It's almost like they kind of start coexisting together.
And not always, you know, sometimes it's definitely, it happens also that I experience joy and, you know, it does, it's not necessarily always accompanied by, by sadness or grief. And I, I definitely try to allow myself to have those moments. I think it's so important. How do I cultivate joy? I think for me it's like also in the small things in daily life. And really, yeah.
I mean, I, I try definitely to practice also some gratitude for the things I have and the things, the things I've received, the things I'm grateful for. And in the day-to-day, I even just like small things, like a cup of a good warm cup of coffee or, you know, going on a beautiful walk. Like there's usually always a little something that can stir up like a feeling of awe or yeah, of gratitude. Yeah, absolutely. And I think gratitude, I mean, I love gratitude.
I think it's not to say that one has to, you know, especially if you're really in the depth of grief, like I don't think you should force yourself to feel gratitude if if you're really in the throes of it, but you know, when there's a bit more stability, definitely gratitude is, is a great tool. Yes, yeah, it is, definitely is. And I love like, I think those little moments of joy they, you know, for me, they are more satisfying than some huge achievement or some, you know,
some big thing that I would. Kind of agree, yeah. That, you know, our ego usually, yeah, paints this picture that oh this big thing like. So, you know, having the ring on your finger and having the house and you know, I don't know what it is I. Agree. Actually, yeah, I think it's because maybe a lot of pressure that comes with it, it's like it's, yeah.
It's like, oh, there's this big thing and you're supposed to also feel really happy about it. And perhaps like the pressure is an added layer versus if you're just in your daily life at home and you're enjoying like a nice, you know, yeah, sunrise or sunset or whatever, like cup of tea, that's just a mundane moment. There's no pressure around it. It's just mundane and you can. Exactly. Yeah, the lack of pressure is the key here.
I find so often like, you know, this, we've, we all have experienced this, that the anticipation of something is what actually brings a lot of like, yes, satisfaction. And when you finally get something hit the goal or whatever and it just falls flat Totally. It's like, no, I don't feel the way I thought I would feel. Absolutely. And that's not happening when you're enjoying that cup of tea or cup of coffee and you see a beautiful sunset or sun sunrise and you're enjoying just the
mundane moment. So there's no like, you know, there's not that pressure. No, there's no pressure. I just, you know, I am such a believer in cultivating joy on purpose because if we wait for those big things and we are like stalling feeling joy or giving us permission or giving ourselves permission to feel joy before that happens. It's just it's going to be so much less satisfying to to then then hit some goal, you know, whatever that might be.
You. OK, Let's just take a very common one for women losing weight. And this is something that I've been, I've been thinking of because I'm still actively wanting to shed weight after pregnancy and stuff and noticing like, OK, if I wait until I hit that goal to be satisfied with myself to, or to be happy with myself, to be accepting of myself, then it's, it's not, it's not going to happen when I hit hit a certain number or any sort of metric. So it happens.
And, and I noticed that also those old perfectionistic tendencies for me, they have definitely like shown up in moments. And it's a really active thing on my part to reframe that in the moment and be like, Nope, do you know what? I am not going to feel better about myself when when I hit some goal, if I am denying it actively. I'm making that a habit in the
now. Do you have any experiences of, of your own when it comes to this of like sort of denying yourselves the joy and contentment of what you have because you should have, you know, you should achieve something different or you or you're waiting until something happens? Yeah, I mean, I have many, many examples of that. Definitely. I've had the weight thing also. There's the career, my souls, and there's the yeah, the getting a partner, also being in
a relationship. There's all these things, yeah, where it's like waiting for the next thing. And it almost feels at some point, I've reflected on the fact that it almost felt sometimes like my life hadn't truly begun until I could hit that milestone, hit this goal. And then that's been huge for me to realize, like, actually life has begun in Annabelle. Like life has begun. Like, it's hard to wait. Like your life has begun.
It's now, you know, And actually going through what I've gone through, losing my mom has also helped with that in the sense that you realize that life can end at any moment. Also, like you realize, you truly realize that death is. Yeah, death is real. Death is real. Like, you know, we all know death is real. But when you really, yeah, when you really see it for yourself and experience it for yourself, it's a totally different thing where you realize that yeah, people, you're gonna lose
everyone around you. I mean, it sounds so sad to say that, but it's like, yeah, we're all gonna die, and life has already begun and we need to start now being grateful for the things we have and appreciating the things we have because the moment's gonna be lost. Every moment's gonna be lost. And yeah. Yeah. And that's the other thing. It's like, really, really realizing that also through the lens of like.
And I know most people who go through grief go through stages of guilt and, like, regrets, but just those moments where I reflect on the fact that I could have been even more appreciative of the moments with my mom and just. Yeah, like if, you know, it's like there's only one thing you want to do. It's like go back to those mundane moments with your loved 10. My goodness, yes. And that's. Yeah, that hits really, really hard often. Yeah, So. I think, I think that's
something that you can avoid. Like even if you were as mindful as you could like be most mindful version of you in those moments you would like, at least for me, I would still feel. Yeah, probably guilt. I think it's inevitable to feel the guilt. Yeah, yeah, it's always. It's part of it definitely, for sure, for sure.
But at the same time, also good reminder that, yeah, it's important to appreciate those moments and, and to live for here now and not wait until because, yeah, otherwise you're gonna wait until your life is over and, and you never know when life will be over. So yeah, exactly that is Yeah, again, one of those cliche things. I know it's cliche. But, and, and it sounds kind of morbid, but for me, I, I do actively think of like of me on
my deathbed. I do think of sometimes I have this, you know, just, I allow myself to think of scenarios where I've lost, for example, my husband or my son and, and just, it's, it's a horrible idea, obviously. And I don't stay there, but sometimes I do consciously allow myself to think because it hits me immediately and it's, it's, it's such a strong wake up call in the moment. It is. And it, and it just reorders everything, all of your priorities in that moment.
And you, you start noticing, OK, well, the things that I was worrying about are nothing compared to this. So maybe I don't have to spend so much time worrying about metrics or work as as big of a part that is of our lives, but still, it's nothing compared to that.
It's nothing compared to that. I mean, going back to to what I've said, some of what I've said before, but I think relationships, it's like at the end of the day, these are the things that are most important to us on our deathbed. Yes, yeah, like nothing can replace it. The love and the I mean, again, cliche, but still it's it's true. It's like the love and connection and yeah, the good moments spent with one another.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think, I think it's so important to be able to have some sort of connection with death. You know, that connection is not regard, but like to sometimes remind ourselves of death because otherwise we might live in a bit of denial that or Yeah. Like it's easy to get stuck in the routines and the mundane and to. Yeah, have this unconscious, maybe believe that it's going to
last forever and that. Yeah, you have spent your time, Yeah. Yes, yeah, it's such a great way to just check in with yourself to see that your priorities are the way that you actually want them to be. And that you're, if you say that you value something like, OK, a lot of people say they value their health and they value their family and they value friends, but is that showing? Is that actually how you spend your time like we usually see
with? How you spend your time, how you spend your money is like the, you know, indicators of where your values actually lie. So I do believe it's a great thing too. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it goes back to like living in alignment with our values. Definitely. That's huge. I think absolutely. And having yeah, if you're not sure what they are, just like taking the time to figure them out and putting them down on paper and yeah, and trying to get to live as close to them as
possible, yeah. Yeah, there's this exercise that people can do to write their obituary. And again, it sounds so morbid, but if you actually allow yourself to write your own obituary and you think, OK, what do you actually want people to say? What do you actually want your legacy to have been? It clarifies a lot of things. And and then you can just, you know, break it down and see, okay, well, is this do do I want to choose a career that feeds my ego but just, you know, brings
poverty to my soul? Because I think it's some sort of metric of success, and does that even matter at that point? So yeah, I do recommend people write something like this to see, OK, am I truly being honest with myself?
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because I often try and visualize myself as an elderly woman and like, maybe it's a bit romanticized sometimes because I tend to do that, but like, I imagine myself just imagining like who I'd be and what kind of older woman I'd want to be and how. Yeah, like who, what would I embody? And, and then just imagining how do I get there? How do I become her eventually? Mm Hmm. How do I choose her in the now? Yeah, yeah. To cultivate her, yes. Beautiful.
White hair. Oh yeah, maybe we all have that beautiful long white hair. Oh my goodness, these are such huge topics that we could spend the whole day talking about. Dissecting them even more, yeah. Yes, absolutely. And before you go I would love to hear what do you cherish about being a woman? Like what is some of the main things that come to mind? I love the honestly, the kind of
the girly things I love. Like what I love about being a woman is like all the yeah, just being able to have fun and to be frivolous sometimes. Like the lights, that quality of like light heartedness and and faithfulness. Yeah, that's, that's the words I was looking for. Like light heartedness and playfulness. I love those qualities about being a woman. There's the fact that we can just have fun and especially with each other, like, yeah, I enjoy girly things and and.
Yeah, yeah. The simple little joys of life. Oh my goodness. They are just amplified when you allow yourself that girly lightheartedness. Yes, you mentioned. Yeah, I think that's like definitely part of it. It just amplifies everything when you no longer feel like, OK, well, this is stupid, this is girly or whatever. You know that. That story, yeah, This is why I even hesitated to say the word girly, because it sounds a little like superficial.
But I think it's one of the things I really love about being a woman. It's like being in touch with that and being in touch with those lighter aspects. I mean, I love that there has been this renaissance of girliness on some of the Internet corners or corners of the Internet, right in the femininity world, because it really deserves a renaissance in a way. You know, it's yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a whole other topic. But like, I think it has been suppressed, you know, in many ways.
Like, you know, yeah, in favors of like being the best day, even a serious woman and like that, yeah, kind of cut off from those lighter aspects. Absolutely, absolutely. It's hoping for another time. Definitely. Before you go, tell us where we can find you online. Yeah, you can find me on my website whichiswaysofblooming.com and I also have an Instagram page. I'm not super active, but I do post sometimes and I'm actually planning to probably be more active this year.
It's also ways of blooming my Instagram. Yes, I love that name, by the way. Ways of Blooming brings. Yeah, Ways of Blooming. It brings so many beautiful images to mind. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. Thank you very much. I love this conversation with you. I would like I said before we hit record that let's just imagine we're in a coffee shop and and having a chat over coffee and I would love to have that happen in real life. That would be so cool.
Maybe someday I'll get to travel with my family and we'll hit Switzerland as well. So maybe that's going to happen someday. You never know. Yes. Or if I hit Finland, yes. Yes, exactly. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation. Yeah, I really appreciate it.