Tesla's robotaxi reality check

Welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of being unsupervised. I'm your friend David Pierce, and I am doing, I think I've talked about this on the show before, my annual-ish full-on backup. of everything so over the years i've basically developed a rule about how i think about files and folders and stuff i want to have them in three places and anything that doesn't allow this i try not to use i want to have all my stuff like in whatever app i'm using

whether it's notes or photos or to-dos or bookmarks or whatever. I want to have it all somewhere. And then I want to have it all in some other sort of cloud storage thing, Google Drive, Dropbox, Microsoft, pick your poison. And then I want to have it all somewhere on a physical drive. And that usually means things like text backups and a lot of like HTML and PDF downloads. And this is the time of year when I try to make sure that all of that is intact.

In theory, I should do this a lot more often. I should do this like once a month or once a week. There was a time where I did it once a week and was like very diligent and proud of myself. Not so much recently. Uh, so now what I'm doing is I'm downloading all of my photos. I'm downloading all of my notes as text and Markdown files. I'm downloading all of the bookmarks and stuff I have. I'm downloading like.

browser history, which I'm confident is not a thing I'm ever going to need, but basically anything I can turn into some kind of searchable, archivable file gets downloaded, gets put on a drive like this one. I have a couple of them lying around and... I try to just make sure it all lives there. This is a way of like backing everything up without making my life more complicated, which I like, right? This is just like a permanent archive that in theory.

I never have to touch. I think very rarely have I ever actually had to go onto this drive and find something. It's just a failsafe. And it works for me. I got inspired to do this, by the way, by today's hotline question, which we will come to at the end of the show. It's a fun one.

And an annoying one. And we'll get to that. But anyway, before we get to all that, today is not just about storage and file backup, though I could talk about that for hours. We're going to do two things on the show today. First, we're going to talk to Andy Hawkins about the...

slightly complicated Tesla robo-taxi announcement over the weekend. And we're also going to just catch up on the state of robo-taxis in general, because this market continues to be very confusing and is moving both slower and faster somehow. than you might think. I'm also going to talk to Allison Johnson about MVNOs, this new type of wireless carrier that suddenly seems to be everywhere. And I think...

might be more important than we realize. There's Trump Mobile, there's Mint Mobile, there's like Boost, but there's something bigger happening here. And Allison and I are going to try to figure out what it is. All that is coming up in just a second, plus more stuff on storage. But first, we have to take a break, and I have to go and download, let's see, 11,000 photos from iCloud Drive. Pray for me. This is The Verge Cast. We'll be right back. Support comes from ServiceNow.

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All right, we're back. Andy Hawkins is here. Hi, Andy. Hi, how's it going? You know, I once again have to talk about robo taxis that both do and don't exist. So this is that question fills me with a lot of confusing feelings. There was a launch this weekend, we would say. Is that a fair assessment of what happened? Something happened. A thing happened. It was, I don't know if you could call it a launch. It still feels very beta to me.

in many ways, but we can get into that. But yes, I guess one could argue a thing was launched. Okay, so what did happen this weekend? There was a small... I was very confused by this because Tesla is a company that like... does big, splashy things at headquarters all the time and is constantly making noise about these huge announcements. And then this, what you would think would be a big moment in Tesla's history, just kind of... sneakily came and went on a Sunday. What happened here?

Yeah, it was very muted. You're absolutely right in that assessment, which is not normal for Tesla. But then again, this is Tesla, and so few things are normal for this company. But yes, what happened was... Sunday, June 22nd, for several hours, a handful of Tesla vehicles. were operating in the city of Boston, Texas, with no one in the driver's seat. And they picked up and dropped off a bunch of passengers. Many of those people were Tesla fans.

Extremely so. Sure. The most vocal of Tesla fans, one could say. And that is why they were allowed to ride in the cars. It was an invite only. So these invites went out to all of Elon Musk's best friends, and they got to ride in these driverless Tesla vehicles. And I'm saying driverless because there was no one behind the steering wheel, but they were not. the unsupervised robo-taxis that Musk...

promised at the beginning of this year, because there were Tesla employees sitting as safety monitors in the passenger seat. They didn't have steering wheels or pedals on their side, but they could effectively hit a kill switch and stop the vehicle. from operating if they wanted to. As far as I could tell, I watched...

a lot of live streams. That is one thing that Tesla fans online love to do is live stream their cars using full self-driving. And so when the robo taxis came up, they were all ready to live stream. So I watched many, many.

several hours long videos of these live streams. So what is the rider experience as best you can tell? You didn't get to ride in one, you weren't in Austin, but like you said, you've seen these, so like walk me through a ride in a Tesla robo-taxi as far as we know.

So from what I can tell, there is a separate app that is not the Tesla app. It is a standalone RoboTaxi app. You download that app. It ports over your profile from the Tesla app, including all of your preferences and all those things. And then you. can hail a vehicle using this app, much in the same way that Uber works. It's basically Uber. And that was something that a lot of these folks were saying, that this is a very similar experience to Uber.

The vehicle's only operated in a very small part of South Austin. It's not clear to me how large a size of a geofence this is, but it is very... Much smaller than Waymo's geofence in Austin. Waymo right now has over 100 vehicles operating across Austin. I think their geofence is around 65 square miles. Tesla's was much smaller. So you had to initiate... ride in the geofence and also the destination needed to be.

also within this same geofence. So we're seeing a lot of people calling rides to their hotels, or they would drive into the geofence to use the robo-taxi service, hail a vehicle, and then take a ride to a fried chicken place or something like that. Sure. And a lot of these folks would take a ride, they would get out at their destination, and then they would immediately hail another ride. They were sort of just like in a revolving cycle. Right. So you use the app, you get this car.

it comes, you get in it, and there's no one, there's not like a person to drive away, but there is a person in the front seat. This is like, the dynamics of the like, how do I get in and start the ride strike me as... potentially deeply hilarious in this moment. Like, you have a driver, but...

They're not driving. Yeah, I think we should also just be really clear here. Like the idea of a safety driver or a safety monitor, extremely common in the autonomous vehicle space. Waymo, Cruise, everyone basically has used a safety driver at some point.

point, either behind the steering wheel, in the passenger, sometimes both. I've been in self-driving cars where there was two people in the front seat. Their hands were sort of off all the controls, but they were there to take control if something happened. during test phases, I think is the real important thing to make clear here. And what Tesla is doing is pretty unique in the field in so far as they're using these safety monitors.

as part of a commercial service. Again, not open to the public yet. It'll be interesting to see if they do open it to the public, whether they keep the safety monitors in or whether they pull those folks out. At this stage of the game, these are paid rides. Elon Musk has said he's charging a flat rate of $4.20. Entirely coincidental, I'm sure. That price, $4.20. I'm sure the accountants went over that one.

rigorously to figure out the exact correct number. That has no other meaning, I'm sure, that I could tell. But, you know, these are paid rides. got that safety monitor in the passenger seat. I saw a few videos where the riders would try to interact and ask questions of the safety monitor. That person was not having it. I think it's pretty clear that their instructions were...

Don't talk to the passengers. Don't touch the controls unless you absolutely have to. And we can get to this, but there was one incident that I saw where one of the vehicles... drove briefly in the opposite lane of traffic on the wrong side of the road. And I thought it was super interesting, first of all, that it did that. Second of all, that the safety monitor made no attempt to grab the steering wheel or do anything, even though the vehicle was...

briefly on the wrong side of the road, operating dangerously. So that's kind of an interesting thing about this whole Tesla experience that is unique, I would say, across the industry. Unique in what sense? Like I think...

Part of the reason this moment is so interesting to me is it is both the launch of a commercial product that real people can use, for sure, but it is also very much a testing phase, right? they're not making money on $4.20 a ride. They're not doing this in any kind of sort of meaningful way.

volume for people that's going to make this make sense as an app to open when I just want to get somewhere. And this is very clearly a beta test, right? And I think part of the reason it's so interesting to me is that this is a moment that... which has been talking a big game about its autonomous abilities for a very long time.

has to actually show what it can do, right? Like a thing you and I have talked about before is like, don't listen to what Elon Musk tweets, like listen to what he says to investors, because that's where you have to tell the truth. And like when you put the car on the road is when you at some point have to tell the truth. And this...

especially compared to what we've seen from Waymo recently, which is just on this like relentless massive expansion plan. Like Waymo feels like it's close. And this to me did not look like Tesla feels like it's close. This felt very small. from Tesla to me. And I think that's not a bad thing. It's just a recognition of where Tesla is at this point. And I just found that disparity and dichotomy sort of fascinating. Oh, yeah, it's super fascinating. And I think...

It's a reflection of a few things. I think you're spot on in your analysis so far. I think it's absolutely a reflection of where Tesla is at this moment, right? Like they were on a tear for a few years. especially during those post-pandemic years where their stock price was on the upward trajectory. They were selling a ton of vehicles, super profitable. And then you saw... 2024 happened, that...

Trump endorsement, Elon Musk going full tilt on MAGA, dark MAGA, sorry. And then things started to change pretty drastically for the company. Sales started to drop. They ended 2024 having sold fewer vehicles than they did. in 2023. That was the first time in many years that that had happened. And then as we've seen in the first months of 2025, that's gotten worse and worse as Musk has gotten more and more political with Doge and his involvement in the Trump administration.

there was a sense of the company that needed to do something to recapture the narrative, to justify this enormous valuation that the company has been enjoying for such a long time, where they are valued. exponentially more than your average car company and that was all about robotics busk has been talking about ai and robotics for such a long time without having delivered a product to anybody and it was just coasting on vibes right tesla was your prototypical

meme stock. It was just chugging along on the vibe train. And so I think as soon as sales started to go down and you started to see sort of chips in the facade, I think that that's when the company decided, okay, we need to actually start.

delivering on what we've been promising on what musk has been promising for such a long time i mean it's been almost a decade that since he said millions of robo taxis on the road within the next two years and every year was successively another two years we just

need two more years to make this happen and now they finally have to deliver in order to reverse this trend as it's been going on in their financials and i think that's why this seems so small so contained so rushed in many ways i mean it was just sort of like

to meet this June deadline that he put in place at the beginning of this year. And it's just drastically different than what he's been selling to people for such a long time. I mean, the vision of Tesla for forever was you buy a Tesla vehicle. That vehicle is going to be the one that is fully driverless. We're going to sell you this technology. You're going to be able to add your car to the Tesla network and make money off of it, right?

Cars typically lose value as soon as they leave the dealership. That's just the state of the game. Tesla was saying it doesn't have to be that way. You can actually earn money off your vehicle. It will become more valuable over time. That is not...

what is being rolled out this week in Austin. This is a fleet service. It is more akin to Uber and Waymo than it is to anything that Musk has been selling. And I think that is sort of why what we're seeing today is so different than what has been promised for such a long time.

Do you think anything that we've seen in this launch either makes you feel more or less confident about some of those bigger visions? I mean, obviously, we should talk about the CyberCab, which is notably not these cars, but that's fine. And there is this big, grand, kind of galaxy-brand Tesla vision around Robotaxis, like you're talking about, right? And I think none of this points to that, but also none of this makes me feel like it's...

out of the question. Does that make sense? Do you feel like we're closer or further away after seeing all this launch? I mean, it's only been one day. Sure. And I think that that's the thing that kind of makes me... concerned. We can't really evaluate any service after just a day. We haven't tested it ourselves. And the fact that it's being filtered through these extremely biased pro-Tesla accounts, I think should give everyone a lot of pause about what we're seeing on the ground.

in Austin. That said, I think it's a good idea that they have safety monitors in the front seat. I think a lot of folks are trying to drag Tesla for doing that, but at the same time, I would prefer there to be... More safety, safety nets, backups, fallbacks, all these kind of things that you need to have in place. Because I think when you look at Tesla's technology versus Waymo or someone else, you can see why.

There is this concern about how this company has been rolling these things out over the years. The fact that it's a computer vision only system without relying on things like radar and LIDAR as secondary sensor inputs. And the fact that, you know. full self-driving as a product has been shown many times. A lot of people like it, a lot of people use it, but there have been numerous cases of crashes that have taken places, injuries with Tesla's driver assist products, even deaths.

has been investigating Tesla for a number of years now based on how they market their products, but also the technology itself and whether or not it is actually. safe as they market it to be. And we don't know because Tesla as a company is a black box. We have no visibility into the safety of their products. They give us safety statistics that are extremely selective and are designed to make the company look good and are not.

Actually verifiable in any way or peer reviewed in the ways that Waymo has done with their safety data. They have published numerous articles in scientific journals, peer reviewed scientific journals that they say show that their vehicles cause fewer. crashes, cause fewer injuries, cause fewer deaths. Tesla has not done that, and yet they are now on the road in a city without drivers behind the wheel. It's been one day. I think we need to take a...

deep breath and cross our fingers and hope that nothing goes wrong. That's fair. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think it seems to me that we're in a position of sort of uncharted territory with Tesla, which is that actually reading about a lot of this...

This is much more careful than I've come to expect from Tesla, actually. This is the sort of thing that I think 12 months ago, Tesla even would have just been like, it's out there, fools, go see what happens. And this is the kind of like very... thought through very small very cautious thing that we actually don't expect from tesla and a i think that's terrific right like that is clearly the correct outcome given where we are but it's so unlike tesla that it almost feels

scarier as a result. And yet it's still risky. I mean, you're right. Totally. And you're also like, it's because it looks, because yes, I think we very well have assumed that Tesla was just going to go full tilt and, you know.

a thousand driverless vehicles on the road. They did not do that. It's a small group. It's like, I honestly thought at some point they would just turn it on for every Tesla that exists. And then the government would be like, what? And Elon Musk would be like, what are you going to do about it? That's honestly what I thought was going to happen. But no, outwardly, it looks cautious. And I don't want to...

detract from that. And I do want to give the company some credit for exhibiting a modicum amount of caution. That said... It is still lacking in some serious safety safeguards that I think we've seen a lot of other companies do. Waymo, for example, will drive six months with safety drivers behind the wheel. We all know passengers.

Then they'll allow passengers in. Then they'll take safety drivers out and it'll be for invite only, for employees only, and they'll test it that way for another six months. There's a process here that they go through. They don't drive on highways. They don't go to airports. Also, no highways, no airports at the moment. But they decided to go out there and start inviting customers.

with safety monitors in the passenger seat. They didn't go through this sort of process of testing for over a year, which is what they do, because their argument is, we have 3 billion miles of customer-driven data on full self-driving. We have...

and neural nets that are powering these vehicles. We have everything that we need, and yet they haven't sort of been transparent about how they're testing the vehicles. They're not releasing the statistics that we're seeing. They don't have these additional sensors that other companies

Because Musk has long argued that they're too expensive and it just doesn't make sense, even though the cost on those sensors has been dropping pretty steeply over the years. So again, you have to give them some credit, but not... entirely too much credit because there are still a lot of risks that the company is taking here. And as we've seen in the past with full self-driving, when things go wrong, Tesla's defenders will come out and say, oh, this, this and this and this is why this happened.

they'll make any excuse that they can as to why mistakes have happened. We saw it yesterday when this car drove on the wrong side of the road. You saw a lot of people rush into the comments and say, oh, my own car on full self-driving will do that sometimes. It's so annoying. That's a big problem. It shouldn't do that. Your car should not just decide to drive on the wrong side of the road, you know? And so, I know, I want to give them some credit, but I don't want to give them too much credit.

Yeah, I mean, to be to be very clear, I think for a long time, there are going to be better ways to get to the fried chicken restaurant than getting in a Tesla robot taxi. You know what I mean? But so I think just let's sort of zoom out a little bit because I think.

The way I have been thinking about the robotaxi world for a while is that there is Waymo kind of in a tier of its own. And then there's sort of everybody else. But Tesla was this... wild card that was like who knows what it's going to do who knows how well it's going to work like we just don't know and we're still like you said very early in this but it does seem like we can at least

slot Tesla in somewhere in terms of where the company thinks it is in self-driving. Is it still Waymo and then everybody else? Yeah, I think in a lot of ways. And I think you also have to Talk about Uber in some respects, too, because Uber has sort of made this move now to partner with dozens of self-driving car companies in North America, but also in Europe and in Asia. And they're sort of trying to become kind of like the platform.

for any company to come and deploy vehicles on. Which seems smart, right? Doing the Uber thing strikes me as a much safer bet. than trying to do the Tesla thing where it's like, we're going to try to own everything, but that requires doing everything at giant impossible scale. Uber is just like, whoever wins, we win, which actually at this moment strikes me as a pretty good call.

Yeah, I think it is pretty smart. They're working with Waymo. They're working with a number of other pretty legit operators. So I do think that there is, and they're also doing it on the delivery side, on the Uber Eats side as well with the Sidewalk robots.

That's a really interesting approach to it. But yes, I do think that like you do have to say that Tesla is part of the conversation. They are operating driverless vehicles on the road in a commercial capacity. And they have said, you know, Musk has said 10, 20 vehicles at launch.

perhaps a thousand vehicles within a few months. And then we're going to be in California. He wants to start operating in Los Angeles. He wants to do it in San Francisco. These are Waymo markets as well. And I think that that's a fascinating thing. And then obviously they've said that in 2020.

They're going to start production on the cyber cab and then we're, we'll eventually start, you know, then the ball will really be rolling and there'll be no turning back at that point. But I do think that, you know, it will.

entirely depend on which markets that Tesla is operating in and what sort of obstacles they may come across. Texas, zero obstacles, right? All you have to do is basically show proof of insurance and you can do whatever you want.

Obviously, you're dealing with an extremely Musk and Tesla friendly government that exists in that state. That said, they had just passed some regulation that says that you need to apply for a permit. Perhaps Tesla, you'd like to wait until September 1st when these regulations kick in. then apply for a permit. That's what a lot of lawmakers in Austin were trying to pressure the company into doing. Didn't happen. Tesla just went ahead and did the thing anyways.

California, entirely different situation. There's a very rigid permitting process. You need to have several months of testing. You need to submit documents to the government to show that your technology is up to snuff. driverless permit. You have to apply for a commercial robo-taxi permit. There's all these sort of a successive number of permits, but that's the market, right?

California is the big market that Tesla wants to get. If they want to compete with the Ubers and the Waymos and everyone else, they're going to need to be in those markets competing with them as well. They may run into some problems as the sort of regulatory requirements. get more and more difficult as they look to spread out. Is the sense in the industry that this stuff is going to be...

kind of a let a thousand flowers bloom market where it'll be sort of like the car market where there's lots of different companies and you can choose your own provider and everybody can kind of peacefully coexist on the roads? Or are we running towards some kind of like... winner-take-all or at least winner-take-most version of the RoboTaxi future here. Because if that's where we're going...

I kind of have a hard time figuring out how anybody catches Waymo at this point, at least quickly. But maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe Waymo can continue to be Waymo and Tesla or some other company can figure out how to be. just as successful in just as many places and everybody can coexist together. What is the sense of how it shakes out there?

Yeah, I think it's going to be entirely dependent on safety. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but really it's the kind of situation where as soon as something bad happens, someone gets hit, a crash occurs. The whole industry almost needs to reset at that point. And that's when you start to see who's a winner and who's a loser in that situation. Because as we've seen in the past, when there's...

some sort of injury or death, that can ruin companies. It happened to Uber. It happened to Cruise under GM's ownership. And it could very well happen to Tesla, right? As soon as there have been already. injuries and crashes right but there have been people behind the wheels of those vehicles and so tesla can say we're not liable we told you to pay attention and you didn't this is a different situation and tesla is taking on a lot more risk now than they ever have in the past

and a lot more liability. That said, I do think Uber's model is really interesting and could be the one that we see as the most successful. You get you sort of like smaller. AV operators, maybe more locally based, who are able to deploy their vehicles to a small number of customers on Uber's platform. And then you have sort of like your big operators, like your Waymos and others who have more runway.

more capital, more financial support, and therefore are able to grow, acquire more vehicles, and then sort of spread across the country. be a very safety guided, I think, development. And it should be, right? If you can't prove.

that you can operate these vehicles. And I think the liability thing is the one that is the biggest hurdle for most of these companies. If you cannot put a driverless vehicle on the road and be confident in the fact that that's not going to come back and bite you in the ass and cost you hundreds of millions of dollars in liability.

then you should feel confident in doing that. But otherwise, that's going to be the thing that I think that weeds out sort of the major players with the confidence and those that maybe are a little bit operating with a little bit more risk. Okay. But you think, I mean, it's an interesting way of thinking about it because there's...

so much potential for like problem and change there that maybe I'm wrong to think that Waymo is in any way sort of insurmountable at this point. Like there are still so much big, huge, massive stuff left to do. I mean, Waymo has been able to circumnavigate the problems of the past with when someone has deployed a vehicle that was not ready and someone got hurt or injured. There's an understanding that that hurts the whole industry, right? People don't...

tend to separate Waymo from Tesla or what have you. They're just self-driving cars. They're just self-driving cars. It's a technology that is not ready for prime time because of this incident that happened. I feel like Waymo has been able to skirt around that a few times.

in ways that other companies have not. But that said, you know, I do think that if something happens in the future and if it's a Tesla vehicle that is responsible for something that happens, some sort of incident, it will be tough because it is also a perception game.

If you can't convince people at scale to trust this technology, they're just not going to use it. They're going to rely on human-driven Uber vehicles, which is why Uber... hedging its bets now saying oh we got we got human drivers and we got robot cars you know that's a way to sort of say both can coexist and that's a company that could potentially be well positioned for more success in the future

But yeah, I do think that like if it once and something will, something will go wrong. I don't want to be doom and gloom, but there will be eventually an incident that happens. Someone will get it. especially as more of these vehicles hit the road and you just reach a certain level of scale where it's unavoidable, these types of incidents. It'll be really interesting to see who's responsible and how the rest of the industry responds to that incident. And then if...

The public decides to reject it and say, OK, that's enough. We've had enough of this, which we saw in L.A. recently with these Waymos getting completely incinerated during these these anti-ice protests. You know, that's a bad look for Waymo. It's a bad look for the whole industry, too. And I think it goes to show that there's still a bit of a hill to climb in terms of public acceptance and trust.

Totally. Well, speaking of things that have fully climbed that hill, at least in my brain, can we talk about the Nissan Leaf just for one second before we go? Oh, happy to. The last time you were on, I told you I was irrationally excited about this car. And then Nissan sort of fully unveiled the 2026 Leaf, and I feel so incredibly vindicated because this car seems awesome. It's great. And I'm very into it.

Tell me why I should or should not be excited about the new leaf. Okay, so you should be excited for it because the specs look great. It's like over 300 miles on certain trims. They haven't said what the price is, but I'm sure it's going to be like in the $40,000 range, which is where most EVs are these days. If it's under 40, I will be impressed. But I'm sure that's going to be reliant on some incentives.

probably won't exist by the time this car comes out. It's got dual ports on it for both CCS charging, fast charging, and Tesla Naxx fast charging. I have not seen that before in a production vehicle. Typically, they'll come out with one or the other, and they'll give you an adapter for the rest. This one, Nissan's just saying, why not just put two ports on this bad boy? Love it. So that's pretty sick.

And just the look of it, it just looks so much better, right? It's kind of reminded me in some ways of when the new Prius came out a couple years ago and how much of a glow-up that was. It just looked sleeker and sexier. than the old Prius. The same is with the Leap. It just, it sort of like cast off its frumpiness and it's now a fully grown up crossover SUV. It just looked great. The downside, it's Nissan, right?

Nissan, not in a great place right now. Struggling a lot. They had a huge round of layoffs a few months ago. Tried to merge with Honda. didn't work out um had to had to break that up but clear that the company is still going through a lot of financial difficulties i don't think that's gonna affect the leaf at all i think that they're really gung-ho about the leaf and and are uh i don't doubt that

It's not going to be like a Fisker situation. Nissan's not going to cease to exist or what have you. But I do think that that might get some folks paused. But yeah, otherwise, I do think that the Leaf looks awesome and I can't wait to test it out. Yeah, it just seems like we're still so...

desperate for compelling mainstream EVs. And I think the leaf... tried and failed to be that so many times that it was like it just it just kept whiffing on like really basic stuff it was like what if we made a car that was ugly and didn't go very far and I was like well I don't think that's it Nissan but it was like but it was the first

It was the thing, right? Everyone gives Tesla the credit for inventing the EV market, but it was really Nissan that took the risk, right? They were the ones who put the leaf came out first. That was the first. It wasn't... long range by any stretch of the imagination, but it was way more than a lot of like the very early compliance vehicles that we saw. And it was cheap. It was so cheap.

It was 112 miles of range, like 30 grand, maybe even like 25 grand. That was what this was all supposed to be before the EV market got kind of hooked on luxury goods and fine leather goods and all that kind of stuff that you see with the... rivians and the pole stars and whatnot things just got too fancy and we kind of like lost sight of like what was the point of all this is to if you really want to drive adoption you gotta

meet people where they are and you especially got to meet them where their finances are and and so many evs today and i think that you you could say that tesla was really responsible for that with the model s and then that sort of like kind of was the model that everyone wanted to follow because they were so successful. So had the Leaf been the one that was the success and not the Model S?

It could have been a different story. You could have seen Ford and GM and BMW and everyone else like rushing to put $20,000 EVs on the road. But instead it was Tesla that was the breakout star. And thus, that's why we got 70, 80, $90,000 EVs before we. Got any hint of a $20,000 one. Yeah. I am rooting for this car for exactly that reason. It feels like the thing the Leaf has always wanted to be.

is a thing we need in in the car market right now and at least from the the look of the thing it feels it feels like it might have actually gotten there but i agree with you i think price will end up being everything and i would not say i'm terribly optimistic given yeah you know, gestures broadly, everything. But that said, we're supposed to be getting cheap EVs from Ford, from Volkswagen, supposed to be coming out some really cheap ones.

Next year, we're going to get the R2 from Rivian. That's supposed to be their $40,000 EV. I do feel, despite all of these headwinds and political machinations that are going on, it does seem that the industry is still committed to putting out a... affordable EV that people can actually buy. And hopefully the Leaf will be sort of like that precursor to a lot of great things to come. You and me both. All right. We got to take a break. Andy, thank you as always. My pleasure. Thanks, David.

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All right, we're back. Allison Johnson is here. Hi, Allison. Hello. Allison, I have dragged you in on your day off because we have to talk about MVN hosts. I...

I wouldn't miss it. I love a good MVNO chat. So this is very fun for me because this is the sort of thing that I feel like in the course of my day-to-day life, I have spent almost no time thinking about. This sort of like weird world of... network usage and carriers and who you buy your service from i've just like i signed up for a verizon account in 2004 and basically have not thought about it since then uh and then with all this trump mobile stuff we got to like

actually sort of have a bunch of conversations about how self-service works that I have just not really had before. And I have found myself deeper down this rabbit hole than I ever expected. And it is sort of fascinating. And I feel like you've had kind of the same journey over the last like seven days. Yeah, and I go into the rabbit hole sometimes when I'm writing about wireless services.

boost mobile uh and all that um and it goes deep like there are some people out there who are like so plugged into their network and like what spectrum they're using and what you know like all of the kind of things that go on under the hood. There's a lot, but I have skimmed the surface and it is fascinating stuff, I think.

I agree. So let's just start at sort of the very base floor here and then build up. What is an MVNO? So an MVNO is a mobile virtual network operator. And it is basically like... a storefront for wireless service. They don't own the network. In the U.S., we have three wireless networks. So they buy the service from one of those three providers and they resell it. And it's like basically as simple as that. So the MVNO is a little bit more of like a...

marketing exercise and they feel like they can tap into a different market that the big providers are not like addressing directly is kind of fascinating. I talked to friend analyst Avi Greengart and he was like they've been around for decades actually like I feel like I've heard about them so much in the last you know two or three years but as long as there's been like

an audience to address, there's been like an MVNO for that group of people. So why would the big three carriers in the U.S., AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon? allow this to happen. You're basically saying they're taking their network, which these companies spend an enormous amount of money on, building and maintaining the infrastructure to have wireless coverage all over the United States.

and sell it to ostensibly your competitor. Why would these companies do that? So they get like a guaranteed return on that bit of, you know, their capacity. And they might have... more capacity than they're always using. So it's a little bit of like a guaranteed payday for them when they sell it to the MB&O. They make their money. The MVNO then has to go make their money back by reselling it.

So it helps them in that way. And there are just market segments that like a Verizon or an AT&T is maybe too big to go after or wants to uphold a perception of like it. It's the best, fanciest wireless network in the world. So there are audiences of people with poor credit or people who don't speak English. Verizon is not going to hire a whole team to translate all their marketing materials into a particular language. So it's beneficial to them in a number of ways.

Okay. And my understanding of the capacity thing is that that has gotten more and more possible over time. And I think this is where I start to make very clear how little I understand how... wireless networks actually work. But my sense of it is that as these networks have gotten faster, as we've gone up the Gs, they've also gotten more efficient. So like, however, whatever, 100 million people on Verizon actually use less.

of this sort of overall capacity than before. So maybe even as it's getting better, Verizon and AT&T and T-Mobile have actually more empty space to offer. Do I have that basically right? Yeah, and someone else I spoke to pointed out that 5G, like the genuine 5G, like we're in the era of... All the networks have actual 5G networks now. They're not trying to rebrand 4G as 5G. And that technology does allow for more capacity. So that might be partially why we're hearing a little bit more.

Over the last like year or two in particular, especially T-Mobile, which has had kind of the head start with all the sprint spectrum. So they had just like extra capacity lying around. You want to.

sell it and definitely get some money back for it. Okay. So when I think of MVNOs, I think the first one I think of is Boost Mobile. And I feel like Boost Mobile has been around forever since like the early aughts. And... has basically been on every imaginable network over time. It's been bought and sold like a half dozen times. The company has a crazy story, but is like pretty successful and has been for a long time.

mostly without ever operating its own network. I think that's like a little murkier now in a 5G world, but it doesn't matter. Mostly it has been an MVNO for most people for a very long time. The thing I think of when I think of Boost, and by extension, most other MVNOs... It's just that it's cheaper, right? Like it is, it is...

There are fewer perks that come with the account. There aren't as many retail stores that you go to to get your phone serviced. You're not going to get maybe as good a deal on a phone, but the price per month is cheaper. And that I feel like is pretty consistently the story. with MVNOs? Is it usually just kind of that simple? Like you trade a few things, but you get a cheaper price every month. Yeah, basically. I think that's, and there's a few other things you could be.

playing in there like they may not require a credit check and verizon will you know needs a credit check for you to get on one of their plans um so they make that a little bit Yeah, they may be okay with, you know, lower credit scores too. And a lot of MB&Os, I don't know if it's exclusively all of them, but they tend to be prepaid. So you pay for your service and then you have your month of service and the big unlimited plans from all the bigger carriers are.

Postpaid and you kind of sign a contract, you know, quote unquote, they can cut your service off if you stop paying them kind of deal. Right. Yeah. So what what's your sense of the. downsides of these? Like if you get a cheaper price, is it like roughly the same service that these things promise? Like this has always been my open question is like, yes, you are. You are. I understand taking.

T-Mobile network capacity and giving it to me for less money than T-Mobile. And I'm like, would I trade retail store access for that? Absolutely unequivocally, yes. Like maybe not everybody would, but I happily would. I will fix my own damn phone. Thank you. But then there's always, I feel like you look at the fine print and it's always like weird.

bandwidth priority stuff going on that I've never been able to I don't know and it's just always like that's the stuff that makes me squirrely is like in ways I don't understand is this actually sneakily less good than T-Mobile even though it's technically T-Mobile yeah I I think it Yes and no. There's...

Deprioritization, which is something that, you know, you can buy a plan from Verizon and still experience deprioritization. That's where you have an allotment of a certain amount of premium data. And once you hit that threshold. It's usually pretty high. The other thing that comes into play with the MVM knows is that the networks have these kind of quality of service tiers for the way they split up. So they put things that are really like sensitive to latency on the highest priority.

voice calls, first responders, that kind of thing. And then down the ranks is your mobile gaming, your internet of things, all that stuff. And I think MVNOs tend to sit like just one tier or so below like the main wireless brand's own traffic. Does that mean you will experience that difference in a meaningful way?

It's really hard to say. I know a bunch of people on MVNOs now who are, like, thrilled with their service, and I don't think it's ever bothered them if that's a factor. Yeah, I will say the one... That I have heard about, this is purely anecdotal, but I know a surprising number of people who switched to Mint Mobile over the years and had really good experiences. And Mint Mobile's thing was like, it's T-Mobile.

but it's 15 bucks a month. And also like Ryan Reynolds is here. Like that was very meaningful for people, but also the idea that you are getting, I think even, even 90% as good. T-Mobile coverage for $15 a month, I think is a trade most people are perfectly happy to make. And I remember a lot of this happening, especially during COVID when people were at home a lot and you're on Wi-Fi a lot. And I was thinking about this, researching all this stuff like.

The amount of time that I spend off of a Wi-Fi network at this point is pretty small. Can I tell a story real quick? I had my... My Verizon account completely shut down while I was traveling home from WWDC. Oh, no. It was a whole technical weird thing with how I kind of did it to myself, like switching around from.

eSIM to physical SIM. We got it sorted out. But I got off the plane. I was like, oh, no, I'm dead. Like, I have died. I don't have cell service. Like, I just live here at the airport now. And it was actually like, I was like, no, there's... Wi-Fi. And there was like Wi-Fi in the parking garage. And I could text on Wi-Fi. I could call on Wi-Fi. I'm like, oh, actually, like, this is fine. Yeah.

got my uber on wi-fi and i survived but it's an interesting thing that some of the so like the cable companies also run mvno's which is such a weird thing of like you know you can have Xfinity mobile service and then Verizon wants to sell you home internet. And I don't know what to make of that. But I think one thing that cable companies are doing is like tapping into that, that like, hey, you're on Wi-Fi a lot.

We'll just kind of facilitate that when you're out and about. If there's an Xfinity Wi-Fi network, like you can use that and it saves us on the data that. We're paying for it's a whole weird world out there. It is a strange thing. And I think I mean, that goes back to your point about this kind of rise in MVNOs over the last few years that I think.

is real like I went back and was like okay is this just a thing that we've been hearing about recently and there have been tons of these before the answer is no like there has been a boom the last several years in MVNOs and I've been trying to figure out why And I have a couple of theories, but I'm curious if you if you have a sort of leading theory about the boom in MVNOs recently. So talk to my friend Avi and he made the good point that like Ryan Reynolds really did like.

start a lot of this. Wait, really? I've been making that joke all week. I thought I was just kidding. No, I thought it was funny too, but he was like, no, Ryan Reynolds is actually to blame here. But having like a friendly face to an MVNO and like the branding of Mint Mobile is so cute. And there's a little fox and it's just kind of like friendly and kind of appealing. I think. attracted a lot of people and sort of helped like shake off the stigma of you know a prepaid service or an mvno as like

oh, that's just cheap and, you know, you got to buy from the main carriers if you want actual good service. It's kind of like a Costco effect where you're like, Oh, yeah, actually, it's kind of cool to shop at Costco and like save a bunch of money on like nice stuff I would have bought somewhere else. But so I think that makes sense. And then, I mean, you consider the fact that Ryan Reynolds like.

didn't start, but like bought into an MVNO, made a bunch of fun ads, and then sold that MVNO Mint to T-Mobile, which provided the service. for Mint already. So it essentially sold T-Mobile back to T-Mobile for $1.35 billion.

bananas like yeah genuine congratulations to everybody involved uh and i think to me what that says is like okay there was a real understanding at the end of that that the brand matters a lot right that like you can have and this is what you're talking about you can have network capacity you can have whatever but like people want to deal with a company that they like and that that's a really meaningful thing and so i get

from the perspective of like, I get why you would start up an MVNO. Like, this is why Trump Mobile makes sense to me, right? You're like, okay, any sort of affinity-based thing. It's pretty easy to start a wireless carrier. It's a thing people pay money for. It's a relationship they have. It's like, I get it. I get why the SmartList guys did it. There's going to be more and more of this over time. The part of it that I struggle with is like...

I don't know a lot of people with a ton of Comcast brand affinity. I guess this is where we should disclose that Comcast through NBCUniversal is an investor in Vox Media. I don't know a lot of people who are psyched about their relationship with Comcast. And so the idea of like, oh, sure, I'll sign up for... wireless services just seems tricky. But then I guess the other thing this has made me think a lot about is, and I'm sure you and I have heard this speech.

from many different people many times that like people want to have fewer accounts and fewer bills. And just the idea of like, okay, I can take your wireless service away from being another account and another bill and another customer service line and just wrap it into this thing you already have.

And I think if I'm getting like galaxy brained about it, I think that's the theory for like the bank. Right. Which is a very sticky account that you're probably going to keep for a very long time. So you're used to dealing with your bank. Yeah, I think so. And there's there's a little bit of like. we are more used to like dealing with things online and I think like

five or so years ago, if I thought about switching wireless service, I'm like, well, I got to walk into a store and I got to talk to a T-Mobile person and get a SIM card and do the thing. They're going to spend an hour trying to convince me not to quit.

And that's the thing I hate the most about it is when you call and you're like, I would like to cancel. And they're like, would you like a deal? And you're like, I would like to cancel. And they're like, would you like a better deal? And you're like, I would like to cancel. And they're like, okay, I can offer you a year of service for 99 cents.

Let me go. I quit. Please let me leave. Where were you six months ago with this deal? Yeah. No. So I know I'm not in a hurry to add any more accounts to my life, but I think.

Yeah, having eSIM as an option makes it easier. And I think a little bit of the... momentum is there with your i talked to my hairstylist and she switched to mint mobile and she's not a tech person and was a little bit terrified about doing all of this but she's like yeah it's you know they talk you through it there's cute little graphical interfaces to help you like switch your plan and you do it i i think having those things there for people kind of

helps spread the word of like, oh, this isn't as terrifying as it sounds like, and you don't actually have to go spend half a day at a wireless carrier retail store. My sort of galaxy brain theory about why this could be a very exciting...

trend. And I'm curious if you agree with this theory. I talked a little bit about this with Jake on Friday, but I've been thinking about it ever since. That what we get now is we get like AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon have spent tons of money building

very impressive infrastructure all over the United States. This stuff is going to get bigger. They're going to keep working on this and they are going to be increasingly happy to like recoup that investment by selling it to MVNOs, right? So we're going to get this giant proliferation of ways to get... more or less identical wireless service. Like, sort of within a small range of quality, pretty good wireless service.

What that means now is there are going to be a million ways to compete on everything else. They're going to compete on billing. They're going to compete on how good the app is for managing your account. They're going to compete on different kinds of features and different stuff you can do.

that you get or they're just going to compete on price and all of a sudden that like we've been on this constant rise in the cost of wireless service like a thing we talk about on the show all the time is that we get pretty bad service for a lot more money than almost anywhere else. And it's largely because there are three companies that matter and nothing else. It's not the same as having truly competitive networks everywhere, but it's the closest to that that we're going to get, I think.

And so maybe what we're going to get is this gigantic boom in like, if not the network competition, then like interface competition on top of that network. And that might be very exciting. So like I've been reading about Disney mobile a bunch. Do you know about Disney mobile at all? No. Disney has an MVNO. No, really? Amazing.

To be honest with you, I could not confirm whether it still exists. Okay. I don't think it's popular, I'll tell you that. But it launched in 2006. Like, to your point, this stuff has been around for a long time. It was originally on the Sprint Network.

This was the thing that really was, I was like, oh, this is why MVNOS could be awesome. So it was basically, it was a like Disney-based experience. They were like, we want to do for families and kids and parents what... we think they would want in a phone service so uh here's just a list i'm reading their press release from 2006 and they have a bunch of new features

that they were launching. One was set spending allowances and track usage for voice minutes and all this stuff back when minutes were a thing and you would get alerts when the allowances had been reached. So parents could be like... you know, you get this many text messages and this many minutes, and then it'll let us know when you get to the end of it. That was a big deal back then, back when everyone was paying a ton for minutes over it.

Determine the hours of the day and days of the week when kids can use their phone. Good idea. Program restricted and always on phone numbers to manage with whom kids may communicate. Super smart. Prioritize important family messages. and locate kids' phones with GPS capabilities. So they took this thing, right? And they're like, okay, this is sprint service, but we can actually change the features you get with your plan and how you use it and how you access it and how we bill it.

in a way that makes more sense for this group of people. And that to me is like, I'm like, oh, there are an infinite number of versions of that thing that you could do. And I think that is like... Way more so than just like one fewer bill. That idea I find super, super, super compelling. Am I just totally pipe dreaming here? Like, is this not where we're headed? Could I have this world or am I just insane? I hope you're right. And I think like.

Some of that will happen. But the thing that makes me a little pessimistic is that it all starts with their relationship with the main three carriers. And they, I don't know what level. They're dictating what you can and can't do with the service. It's certainly in their interest to make sure that their offering is the shiniest, best, coolest.

I think it has already happened a little bit with Mint Mobile. And T-Mobile buying Mint Mobile kind of speaks a lot, I think, about how that is an important... piece of business that they want to bring back in-house. So I don't know. I'm just a little pessimistic from the like... capitalism doing capitalism kind of side of it but I hope it would be cool if there were like

actual better ways to interact with a wireless company. I definitely, we're going to see like, I think some of the MVNOs are sort of bundling services in that way to kind of like. differentiate and the Liberty Mobile, which is the network that the MVNO that Trump. mobile is just kind of glomming on to. They had a whole bunch of things that was like telehealth and device protection. It would be cool to see a company do that. do it in a good way that doesn't feel like upselling, you know?

I don't know why this just pops into my head, but I was like Headspace should do an MVNO. What if Headspace did? Oh, that's interesting. I don't know, like built in. soothing activities that you could do when you're dealing with your wireless carrier no see okay here's here's my idea for headspace Headspace dynamically replaces all hold music with meditation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're waiting, it just replaces it and it gives you just like a five-minute meditation while you're waiting.

on hold to talk to, you know, your bank or whoever. Yeah, it's like, we noticed you're on hold with Walgreens for 30 minutes. Would you like? Would you like to meditate? Do you want to hear the sound of whales? Yeah, I do. Thank you, Headspace. I would love to hear whale sounds.

Free idea. I will sign up for Headspace Mobile. Headspace, get at us. You can have this, but we demand free service. That's how this works. One other question on this, and then I'm going to let you go. The other piece of this to me seems like...

phone unlocking becomes an important part of the equation here, right? Like eSIMs make it easy to switch your phone, but we're still in this... kind of nebulous is my phone locked to my carrier world here in the United States. Again, I should point out that so much of this is going to seem like esoteric and ridiculous to people anywhere else who have long had better, more competitive.

mobile phone universes that don't require all of the shenanigans that we're talking about here. But here in America, it does feel like if we can get eSIMs and we can get unlocked phones and we can get... Big, vast carrier choice. We are like somewhere cool and exciting. Are we on a good path to unlocked phones? I think we're on a like very slow, good path. There's some... legislation i think they were trying to tell the carriers like

You cannot lock someone's phone to a network. Like, you have to unlock it after a certain amount. It was like six months or whatever. I think it was 60 days was the thing they were going for. 60 days, okay. Yeah, that's even better. Whether or not, like... I've paid off my device to Verizon. That's between me and Verizon. But like, they can't just be like, you may only use this phone on a network. That's good. That's.

progress, I think. But I think there is a little bit of just a habit with, especially in the US, of like, it's time for a new phone. go to Verizon or go to their website. And in undoing that a little bit, I don't know exactly how that starts, but like you can just go to it. Apple's website and you can get a device like payment plan.

It doesn't have to come from the wireless carrier, but somehow the good deal always seems to be tied into like, well, you know, if you connect to your Verizon account, we'll just help pay for this phone for you. All right. For now, go back to your day off. Thank you for doing this. I appreciate it. We are going to take a break and then we're going to come back and do a question from the hotline. Thank you, Allison. Thank you. Be right back.

The Supreme Court has just held that federal judges can't block even unconstitutional executive orders throughout the country. So, what now? I'm Preet Bharara, and this week, Supreme Court experts Trevor Morrison, Melissa Murray, and Jack Goldsmith Join me on my podcast, Stay Tuned with Preet, to discuss the biggest implications of the court's term. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're back. Let's get to a question from the VergeCast hotline. As always, the number is 866-VERGE-11. The email is vergecastattheverge.com. You can hit me up directly. Like, we're not hard to find. If you have questions, get at us. We love hearing all of your questions. Today's question...

is something we've talked about on the show before, but we get a lot. And so I want to just tackle it again in as aggressive and straightforward a way as we possibly can. It's about storage. Here it is. Hey, VergeCast. This is Anthony from Denver. I have a question about the best way to free up space on iPhones. Last week, while my mom was visiting with me, she had shared that she had just bought a new iPhone 16, but it was already kind of running out of space and was very slow.

So she wanted to know what she could do to free up space on her phone and hopefully speed it up. And specifically, she wanted to know if there's anything that she could do to remove photos from her phone and back them up and store them elsewhere. Now, my wife and I were both Pixel users, so we were both kind of flabbergasted to learn that Apple doesn't have a photo backup solution. It has iCloud.

which as far as we could tell is like a syncing service. But Apple doesn't really have any solution for both backing up photos while also removing them from the device. And so after researching for a few hours, the solution that we ended up coming to is you could use a service like Google Photos or Amazon Photos, or you could...

try downloading them to a computer and moving them to an external hard drive. My wife and I, we ended up deciding to solve this problem with Google Photos. And after about two hours or so of backing up most of the photos and deleting some of them, we ended up saving her about...

50 gigabytes of space on our iPhone. But we were both kind of left wondering, like, how has Apple not made a well-designed, like, photo backup solution? Like, why would... anyone want to use 50 gigabytes of space on their device for photos when they don't have to, when they probably don't even want those photos to be on their device at all.

Is there anything else that iPhone users can do? You can see why this sent me down a rabbit hole of thinking about where all of my stuff is, right? And I have a few thoughts.

for our friend here. And for everyone who is thinking about this, which as far as I can tell is everyone. I think like I'm running out of storage on my phone is as universal a problem as anybody has on technology, right? Like it's everywhere. So.

Here's what I would say. If you use an iPhone, this is all going to be Apple specific because frankly, Apple does this in the worst possible way. And Google is at least a lot more straightforward. You just dump stuff into Google Photos and there it is. The thing that I would say is that A,

Even if you're on iOS, Google Photos is great and you should use it. If there's a good chance you have lots of storage over there, that's a thing I pay for separately anyway, just because I wanted the drive storage and the more Gmail. And so like, there's a solid chance you're already paying for more.

Google storage. So use that use Google Photos, turn on the auto backup, it'll send everything up there. I think Google Photos is a vastly better photo experience than anything Apple is doing. So that's what I tend to use anyway. I also will say, and I hate so much that I'm saying this, Apple's $299 a month, 200 gigabyte iCloud deal.

is a pretty good deal it is absurd that you don't get that for free that that's not the base tier that apple the richest company in the world is going to nickel and dime you three dollars a month just to have like an appropriate amount of storage for your photos But it's it's three bucks a month to largely not have to think about this most of the time. And frankly, that's worth it. A couple of other things. The first thing most people should do is go to settings.

on their phone and turn on the optimized storage thing in photos. Let me just do this right now. So I have it right. You go you go to settings. And then you tap on your name at the very top. And then you go to iCloud. And then you tap on photos. So this is telling me I have 10,745 photos and 687 videos taking up 102.29 gigabytes of space. That's a lot.

I suspect there are a lot of you who have much more than that. And you want to turn on the thing that says optimize iPhone storage. So basically what that does is instead of leaving the whole... kind of increasingly large file with every new rev of Apple's camera system on your device, it keeps all of it in iCloud and downloads a smaller one to your device. What I have found is this is just rubbish.

at actually working. Sometimes it loads things way too slowly. It seems to leave things on your device for too long. It is not actually optimizing space nearly as successfully. as it ought to. Again, this is where Google Photos does it much better. It just leaves all the stuff in the cloud and then you tap it and it pulls it down when you need it. Much better system. But that should at least save you a little bit of space.

There is also a bunch of tools in here for just deleting things, which I think is what I would tell most people to do. So again, you go into settings, and you go to your face, and you go to iCloud, and you go to photos, and then you hit manage storage.

And it loads this thing for you that basically then gives you actual information about all of the stuff. on your phone, right? It takes a long time, in my case, because it has to look through 10,000 things. But it pops up a thing that says review your photos and videos. Mine is telling me I can get 50 gigabytes of space back by deleting. duplicates, screenshots and videos. In my case, almost all of that.

is videos. And the thing I like about this is there's this one screen all the way deep down here in settings that will actually show you in order your largest videos. And I would bet and I have confirmed this both on my phone and on some others, just as sort of basic, you know, research purposes, that almost everybody has a few like sneakily humongous

videos on your device you accidentally took a seven minute long video in your pocket without noticing it you have one that's like six minutes of pro res that is taking up half the sword on your phone like there's just a bunch of little things here so for me like if i delete The nine biggest videos on my phone, I'm looking at eight gigabytes worth of space just to free up like that. So that's one thing to do. You can delete all your screenshots. You can delete all of your complicated.

overly done edited photos, you can delete your duplicates, you can delete all the stuff that you don't need. And it's much easier to do here in settings than it is almost anywhere else on your phone. So delete the stuff, put it in iCloud, and then... The thing that I would do if you like really want to invest in this is go to the iCloud Photos website, which is a better way to like mass move stuff around. Open it up.

Make the use the little slider at the top to make the photos as small as possible. Scroll all the way to the top to the very first photos you took, which overwhelmingly I suspect are ones you might want to keep, but don't need like ready access to. download all those photos and put them somewhere else. Like delete some of them, download some of them. It is easy and quick to do from a web browser in a way that on your phone or an iPad or even in the Photos app on a Mac is just kind of messy.

This is like a good mass tool for just... getting everything out. And what I'm trying to do in this go round is basically only keep the last couple of years of photos actually in my iCloud. Everything else goes into this like permanent storage of some kind. And so...

The idea is that I have a place to get those and someday when I want to go look at them, I will know where they are. But they're not sitting in the cloud storage accessible to me all the time and taking up space because they don't need to be and I don't need them all the time. So those are all my recommendations. You probably have lots of storage space also, by the way, in places like Amazon and Microsoft. And everybody, I think, has like a Dropbox account lingering that they're not using.

There are places you can put things other than iCloud. And I would encourage you for almost everything that isn't something you think you're going to like actively need and use, put it somewhere else. Because Apple... does not do a good job of managing your storage, and desperately wants you to overpay for it. So just don't play Apple's games. Delete all your biggest stuff, put it all somewhere else, and I think life will be okay. And in theory, this is a thing you should do.

I don't know, once a year, that'll take you 20 minutes. It's like not a hard project, but it is a thing you shouldn't have to do. That is not to excuse Apple. It's annoying that this is the case, but that's what I do. So I hope... Any of that helps. And if you have a better tip for how to manage all of this stuff so that you don't have to go in at the last minute every once in a while and just mass delete a bunch of stuff, I would love to hear it. Tell me all of your tips.

All right, that is it for the show today. Thank you to everybody who's on the show with me. And thank you as always for listening. As ever, if you have questions, thoughts, feelings, storage ideas, weird things that you're as obsessive as I am about with Markdown files, get at us. The hotline is 866-VERGE11. The email is vergecast at theverge.com. We absolutely love hearing from you.

This podcast is produced by Will Poore, Eric Gomez, and Brandon Kiefer. The Vergecast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Eli and I will be back on Friday to talk potentially more about Tesla. He's going to have some FCC thoughts. We got a lot of stuff to catch up on before we all head out. on parental leave. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.