“The Who is Everything” with Kathy Macchi, Co-Founder of Inverta - Ep 71

TT - 071 - Kathy Macchi === Craig Rosenberg: [00:00:00] eating healthy, just God, it sucks. It is unbelievable. Kathy Macchi: Wait a [00:00:05] minute. Do you have to, do you have like suddenly high cholesterol or Craig Rosenberg: I have, I have, type [00:00:10] one diabetes. Kathy Macchi: Uh, Matt Amundson: Craig's a diabetic Craig Rosenberg: [00:00:15] Thanks Matt, for clarifying that after. Appreciate Craig Rosenberg: that. Matt Amundson: one quarter [00:00:20] pre-med baby. ​[00:00:25] [00:00:30] [00:00:35] [00:00:40] I'm watching the US Open. One of their main tennis players has [00:00:45] diabetes. He can play at that level. Kathy Macchi: I'm sure you Matt Amundson: eating terribly. Craig Rosenberg: So can Craig Rosenberg: I. Sam Guertin: [00:00:50] aren't you there? Air. Matt Amundson: I was at the, I was at the, US Open last week. Kathy Macchi: Were you really? I had a [00:00:55] friend there, uh, watching the quarterfinals and she caught a ball. Matt Amundson: I caught, I Matt Amundson: caught no ball.[00:01:00] Craig Rosenberg: happens. does. And yeah, but she was [00:01:05] cut off on the tv. She was in the front row, but it was like, you know, the tv, it was just, [00:01:10] I know, but I was so excited. Totally robbed. I did record it. So I'm gonna go back [00:01:15] slowly and see if there's, Matt Amundson: frame by frame. Kathy Macchi: flat. Absolutely. That's what you do for your Sam Guertin: [00:01:20] Enhance. Kathy Macchi: Who did you see at the, at the US Open? Matt Amundson: Well, I saw [00:01:25] Alcaraz, uh, make Kathy Macchi: Did you really? He's playing right now. Right now make very light work Matt Amundson: [00:01:30] of an Italian. It was Matt Amundson: a 50 58 minute game. Very [00:01:35] brief. Kathy Macchi: But he's honey dos. Yeah, I'm making [00:01:40] those this weekend. We have our tennis friends coming over. I know. Matt Amundson: Definitely [00:01:45] Hangover central. Kathy Macchi: Yeah, Matt Amundson: Very sweet. Kathy Macchi: yeah. Craig Rosenberg: [00:01:50] w is, is, uh, are you like a big tennis person, [00:01:55] Kathy, Craig Rosenberg: or is Craig Rosenberg: that, that was Craig Rosenberg: do considering. Kathy Macchi: No, I've become one recently. [00:02:00] I don't know, it's been a new thing. I don't know. You get a certain agent and suddenly people are into [00:02:05] tennis and you wanna fit in with your peer group, you know, skateboarding's out at this [00:02:10] point, you know, certain things are just no longer on the table, you know, raves, things like [00:02:15] that. Kathy Macchi: So suddenly Craig Rosenberg: oh, I still go to raves. Kathy Macchi: no, I'm sure you yeah, Craig Rosenberg: they're [00:02:20] cool. Craig Rosenberg: But, uh, something a while back and I had to put on the [00:02:25] headphones and it seems like everyone did this, so, you know, I, and people were amazed I was there, you [00:02:30] know, look at you. Kathy Macchi: and I thought once that was good. There you go. It [00:02:35] was more like, you just feel this pressure, I'm not really sure, and everyone has to have on [00:02:40] headphones. Kathy Macchi: It's like, well, you could just turn the volume down, but that's not the point. I [00:02:45] understand Mm-hmm. it's not the point. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Well, I'm, you know, to be [00:02:50] honest with you, that was an intriguing. There [00:02:55] little bit. Uh, explain yourself. Was this recent that you were at this Kathy Macchi: Uh, [00:03:00] probably Craig Rosenberg: event? Kathy Macchi: would have to, I don't know, is this gonna be cut out? [00:03:05] So I turned, Craig Rosenberg: Oh, no. That, that's the point. Yeah. I mean, Jesus, Craig Rosenberg: we [00:03:10] don't cut. Yeah. Kathy Macchi: uh, I turned 65 and then some of our neighbors are young and [00:03:15] they're like, this would be good to do. So I did. I was easily, [00:03:20] there were a lot of people in their thirties there though, like that was interesting, or Craig Rosenberg: Oh, wait, [00:03:25] wait, Kathy Macchi: to me Craig Rosenberg: wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hold on a sec. But does that mean that everyone else [00:03:30] was in their twenties or was this a rave for sixties Kathy Macchi: No, no, no. I [00:03:35] was like, people were coming up like, Hmm. You know, no, no. Everyone else was like, [00:03:40] easily 40 years younger. Yeah, 40 years Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah. Oh Kathy Macchi: Yeah. [00:03:45] Yeah, yeah. But it seems like, I experienced it You wanna do new things? [00:03:50] So I said, okay, I'll, I'll do this. I don't think I'll do it. Like it's check done. I'm [00:03:55] like, okay. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, you got it outta the way. But actually Craig Rosenberg: it's a great business [00:04:00] idea. I might pitch the partners here on raves for the 60 something crowd. [00:04:05] 'cause I mean like, you know, you just, you're at that point you're like, you know, fuck it, [00:04:10] I'm going for it, man. And just, I'm telling you, dude, Matt, Craig Rosenberg: would you like to co [00:04:15] be a co-founder? Kathy Macchi: well, and it would end at like seven and, well, so here's the deal. [00:04:20] So I was Craig Rosenberg: you. Kathy Macchi: I escaped the, I was escaping the heat in Austin, so I went to Hudson, New [00:04:25] York for a month, and there's a lot of people from New York City. That's what, you know, during the [00:04:30] pandemic, it really grew. And, but there's a lot of retirees there. Kathy Macchi: And I, you know, I'm, I like to check [00:04:35] out all the bars and restaurants over the course of a month. And it's like, oh, there's a new wine bar and it's [00:04:40] open from three to seven. It's like seven like, and it's like, yeah, these are day [00:04:45] drinkers. They're retired, they wanna be home dinner at seven, in bed by nine. Matt Amundson: [00:04:50] Yeah. Kathy Macchi: have you ever heard a wine bar three to seven, Matt Amundson: Well, you don't want to be, you know, [00:04:55] you don't want to have a couple glasses of wine and drive after 7:00 PM You want to keep your drunk driving between [00:05:00] the hours of three and Kathy Macchi: Well, because the state troopers are out after seven. They are, in fact, [00:05:05] one bar he went to. They're like, oh, be careful. They just wait for us to come outta the bar, and then they just pull you [00:05:10] over. Matt Amundson: Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: Oh, Jesus. Craig Rosenberg: All right. Well that you guys were making [00:05:15] fun of me, but I'm gonna say Kathy brought the, uh, in interesting conversation there. [00:05:20] Um, and Craig Rosenberg: just to answer your guys' original question, I'm eating salmon[00:05:25] Matt Amundson: Oh, Oh, Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. that's Well, [00:05:30] it's from a Mediterranean. Yeah, Craig Rosenberg: it's a Mediterranean place in, um. [00:05:35] Uh, when I go all vegetable, I'm just like, I get lightheaded. Craig Rosenberg: So I [00:05:40] have to do lots of vegetables with some, uh, significant protein. Craig Rosenberg: I was [00:05:45] tempted to go with the Euro plate. No, um, no bread, but, [00:05:50] um, you know, I just Kathy Macchi: That no bread. Come on. Matt Amundson: No. [00:05:55] Craig's Matt Amundson: off Lemme tell you, lemme tell you guys something. I have this meter, this [00:06:00] diabetes meter or whatever you wanna call it. Sugar meter. Craig Rosenberg: Glucose meter. Kathy Macchi: Oh yeah. It's nuts to [00:06:05] watch you throw in some like, um, you know, bad [00:06:10] carb like breads or buns or you know, Craig Rosenberg: whatever man that is like, [00:06:15] yeah, you're dropping a bomb man. It is, it is shocking. Um, what that could do, [00:06:20] which is a bummer 'cause I love sandwiches. Matt loves sandwiches too. Matt Amundson: Yeah, it's my [00:06:25] favorite Craig Rosenberg: love Kathy Macchi: there people that don't love bread? Sometimes I just get the bread. I mean. Craig Rosenberg: I know. [00:06:30] Yeah. I like your style. I'm just the same way I, my kids would eat and then they'd leave sort of [00:06:35] the end of the bread that had a lot of the flavors from what was inside. And [00:06:40] I'll eat that and I love it, man. But now, Kathy Macchi: You are such a parent. Just [00:06:45] cleaning up. Are you, are you gonna finish that? Is that what you said? Are you gonna finish that? Craig Rosenberg: now I, I [00:06:50] actually stopped that. I just wait, and then it's like I don't even order anymore. Craig Rosenberg: [00:06:55] Well, now, now I'll have to Yeah, because I'll have to eat healthy. Craig Rosenberg: Okay. So. Kathy Macchi: we [00:07:00] go back on the glucose, I don't know, Matt, lemme bring this back to tennis. Serena [00:07:05] Williams now has one of those, I guess you get your own glucose monitor, not if you have [00:07:10] diabetes. And what she had said, she wished she had had this when she was really a professional athlete.[00:07:15] Kathy Macchi: She had every morning she would have like a smoothie and I don't know, all these other things. And she realized [00:07:20] bad for her, where her husband can have, oh, she would have oatmeal. She doesn't even like oatmeal. I ate every [00:07:25] morning for like 25 years. But she said it made her glucose spike. Matt Amundson: Hmm. Craig Rosenberg: [00:07:30] Yeah, Kathy Macchi: you and Serena Williams, I'm telling you the, the sports analogies here, [00:07:35] Craig, I mean, you're almost like a professional athlete now. Matt Amundson: show writes Matt Amundson: itself. Kathy Macchi: Yeah. [00:07:40] what though? I'm gonna say this, that Kathy, as an underrated [00:07:45] salesperson, going right to the sports analogies to make me feel better about myself. That was [00:07:50] amazing. Like right in line. And I will say though, that I have been [00:07:55] testing oatmeal. I will write, I will tweet. Tweet or what's it called? Craig Rosenberg: When you tweet at [00:08:00] someone now that's called X. Do you accent someone or is it still tweet at someone? Do you [00:08:05] know? I think he just At Matt Amundson: you? At them? Craig Rosenberg: Oh, I, I will Craig Rosenberg: at [00:08:10] Serena, Kathy Macchi: them. Direct message them. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, that's true. Maybe I'll [00:08:15] Serena or I are on a Kathy Macchi: You can probably just call her you, you're probably on. Yeah. Just [00:08:20] text her. Like you don't Probably want to it in a public forum, yeah, Craig Rosenberg: Oh man, I Matt Amundson: hit her on [00:08:25] Reddit. Matt Amundson: Keep it in the family. Craig Rosenberg: All Craig Rosenberg: right, so, so Kathy, we appreciate you coming [00:08:30] in hot. Introducing Kathy Macchi, Co-Founder of Inverta --- Craig Rosenberg: So everyone on the show I'm going to, I've already, this [00:08:35] is, you know, I've done intros for you before I actually thought about this. Craig Rosenberg: [00:08:40] Well, Matt and I worked with you that I met you through Matt. Craig Rosenberg: 'cause Matt had, um, we were in [00:08:45] Austin Craig Rosenberg: at an event. Yeah, Craig Rosenberg: well we did the event first Craig Rosenberg: and I did it with Kathy. [00:08:50] I'm like, holy shit. She's smart. Because remember back that time, and actually maybe even [00:08:55] now we can talk about that. There was like a lot of ABM hocus pocus. Craig Rosenberg: [00:09:00] Right. One was people were very confused about what it was. Craig Rosenberg: So that was [00:09:05] innocent. And then two was a lot of people sort of went to the, um, [00:09:10] talk circuit with frankly not helpful sort of ABM [00:09:15] takes. So then I'm on this panel with Kathy and I'm like, I don't know this person, but she's [00:09:20] really smart. And then we went to that really cool dinner Craig Rosenberg: at, it was like a French [00:09:25] place in a Yeah. Matt Amundson: like in a house. Craig Rosenberg: I was hanging out with Kathy and her friend from New [00:09:30] Zealand, and she's so sophisticated and smart, and I'm like, I gotta be friends with this person. [00:09:35] And then, you know, I've been following you for years now. You're like, um, you're, you're [00:09:40] so battle tested in the world of, of the ups and downs around [00:09:45] ABM, targeting just marketing in general. Craig Rosenberg: Go-To-Market. [00:09:50] And there's it, you sort of see the, like, you kept going like this, but [00:09:55] there was like ebbs and flows of people. Like, I went dark for like three years. I'm just trying to make a comeback right [00:10:00] now. But you've sort of stayed consistently out there and always with great stuff. I mean, [00:10:05] honestly always with great stuff. Craig Rosenberg: So it's with great pleasure that we invite [00:10:10] back Kathy Mki to the show. Craig Rosenberg: The transaction, I believe. Kathy Macchi: Now I have to be [00:10:15] really nice to you. Thank you so Craig Rosenberg: No, no, actually no. That's, Craig Rosenberg: that's an opener for you to, Craig Rosenberg: [00:10:20] yeah, Kathy Macchi: oh. He goes, oh no. Now we're gonna really trash you now. That was just the beginning and now it's. Craig Rosenberg: By the way. Craig Rosenberg: [00:10:25] Sam, before we go, guys, I learned something new on a podcast I was on the other day, [00:10:30] which Craig Rosenberg: is, it's really good best practice to turn on, hide yourself [00:10:35] on squad cast Craig Rosenberg: because then you don't look at yourself. Yeah, you just look at [00:10:40] the other speakers. Sam Guertin: Wow. Craig Rosenberg: Okay, so [00:10:45] Kathy, here's how Craig Rosenberg: you got that one. Craig Rosenberg: All right, so we got two, two big, [00:10:50] uh, yeah, that was a small, uh, two big, uh, topics we like to cover. One [00:10:55] is, you know, we like to hear a, a Go-To-Market story from you. [00:11:00] Um, it could be anything, frankly, like some people do really funny, some people do really [00:11:05] heartwarming. Some people tell sort of hero stories, we're down for whatever. And then two, we will [00:11:10] talk about the, you know, things that you're seeing working today, like one to three, [00:11:15] um, you know, strategies, tactics, pro, you know what, whatever, whatever it is that you're seeing that, [00:11:20] you know, works in today's sort of crazy and changing environment. So Craig Rosenberg: with [00:11:25] that, let's lead you off Kathy's story time, which could [00:11:30] become, depending on your story, Kathy, Craig Rosenberg: just from having said Kathy's story, time could [00:11:35] become a regular segment. Matt Amundson: Recurring Matt Amundson: segment. I Matt Amundson: like Kathy Macchi: A recurring set. Kathy Macchi: [00:11:40] Yeah. I always try to do interesting things. So this is around Go-To-Market. Craig Rosenberg: Well, [00:11:45] you could also talk about raves for 60 plus crowd, but I think, yeah, I think just, [00:11:50] we should Craig Rosenberg: probably, Kathy Macchi: know how to really go through your Medicare plans. Like if there's anyone in that age, [00:11:55] like, I'm gonna be your person. I've navigated it all. You know? Craig Rosenberg: I've been [00:12:00] getting my a A RP mail now. They, Craig Rosenberg: they're hitting me They have. Okay. Do they [00:12:05] have the best marketing? Like the day you turn 50, it shows up The day I turned [00:12:10] 40, it showed up. Craig Rosenberg: are you serious? Kathy Macchi: you're an overachiever. You're an [00:12:15] overachiever. Yeah. Matt Amundson: old They wanted you. They're according you. They're Craig Rosenberg: that's that's nurturing [00:12:20] at fu. That's top of the f that's the top, top of the Matt Amundson: yeah. Tip of the Matt Amundson: iceberg. [00:12:25] so yeah, like, um, or just, you know, a story of, you know, like [00:12:30] company that you're seeing doing really cool, amazing things. Whatever you want to talk, you know, just give us something [00:12:35] to, to, in a, in a story format for us. Craig Rosenberg: Um, we're down [00:12:40] for whatever. The Business Concerns Coming up In CMO Councils --- Kathy Macchi: All right. Let's see. Well, actually I have a little CMO council, so I'll [00:12:45] just, so we went through, what are the biggest challenges going on today? Like, do you want that, do you want like a story [00:12:50] where I was like, a fool or Kathy Macchi: something? Was that a better one? Matt Amundson: we can do both. [00:12:55] let's keep Craig Rosenberg: that one got, Kathy Macchi: yeah. Yeah. Get, Craig Rosenberg: keep that keep, keep that on the back burner. Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:00] No, let's hear, Kathy Macchi: All Kathy Macchi: right. 'cause there's a lot of those. Craig Rosenberg: We'd love to hear Craig Rosenberg: more about that. Yeah. Kathy Macchi: well, so [00:13:05] it was interesting this morning I sort of op, well it started with one CMO couldn't make it. She just said, September's gonna [00:13:10] kill her. You know, it's Mm. month. She like, I can't even come. So we sort of opened it up with what is going [00:13:15] on and. Well, everyone's in annual planning, so that's always just a [00:13:20] stress in itself. Kathy Macchi: And I swear a lot of people do annual planning. It's like they see as a one-time [00:13:25] exercise and then it goes on the shelf and everyone goes back to what they're doing. But the bigger one is, I think [00:13:30] a lot around the marketing org of the future. And what is that gonna look like? In fact, Craig, I [00:13:35] wanna have a separate conversation with you about a longer topic on that. Kathy Macchi: So we've got a [00:13:40] few projects going on now where people are like, I've gotta cut X amount. You've [00:13:45] got the board saying, you can almost replace everyone with ai. You're getting budgets cut [00:13:50] and so, so I'll bring it back. So Jeffrey Moore had a whole [00:13:55] thing back. I don't even know when you know what's core and what's context. Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm. Kathy Macchi: And I [00:14:00] think we're gonna have to go through this exercise about what's in house, what's most strategic, [00:14:05] what needs to have deep company knowledge, maybe not as strategic, more operations. [00:14:10] What's more, you need expertise but doesn't need to be in house. And then what's [00:14:15] just operational? You don't, don't even like posting, you know, social [00:14:20] media things, you know, campaign execution. Kathy Macchi: I think you're gonna have to have a framework to go [00:14:25] into the next year with what are you doing with budget cuts, what are you doing with staffing? [00:14:30] What are you doing with ai? And I think [00:14:35] everyone has to deal with that. Unfortunately right now, Craig Rosenberg: but like did the CMOs [00:14:40] that were on the council, haven't they already cut? Kathy Macchi: [00:14:45] they have, and I'll tell you right now, like everyone's being asked to cut [00:14:50] more, everyone thinks you can just replace BDRs with an agent, Mm-hmm. [00:14:55] Mm-hmm. in fact, the other thing that came up is we're talking about difference [00:15:00] between like MQL, uh, M qls, MQAs, and buying groups. Like that just comes up [00:15:05] and I think there's a big difference, but. Kathy Macchi: Like MQAs is just the operational part. How do you [00:15:10] bundle this stuff up and get it over to BDR? It's like your BDR is your least [00:15:15] experienced. They're the youngest person on the team and they're the ones that had to make a change. Like marketing hasn't done anything [00:15:20] different. Your AEs haven't done anything different. Kathy Macchi: And I think until you go to buying groups [00:15:25] where it's like the people, what's the behavior? What are you gonna do? And how is every team [00:15:30] gonna do things different because you're targeting a buying group? What are their, how are you gonna measure them? How are you gonna do [00:15:35] all that? Everything just falls on the BDR R Like, you change, but we're, we're gonna stay the same.[00:15:40] Kathy Macchi: I mean, Matt, you've dealt always with BDRs. I just think they're the, like, [00:15:45] we need more meetings. Everything falls on them. And that is your youngest [00:15:50] people in the organization? Craig Rosenberg: no. Kathy Macchi: I mean, what are you seeing? Craig Rosenberg: I [00:15:55] mean, look, I, there's a couple things that I think are really interesting. One is, um, [00:16:00] and I don't know what to do about it. 'cause I'm in the world of trying to, [00:16:05] uh, help people cut costs and grow at the same time. Craig Rosenberg: [00:16:10] So we could talk about AI in a sec. I think the big thing is that [00:16:15] we forgot that early pipeline until you figure it out, [00:16:20] costs money. It costs money and you're gonna fail.[00:16:25] Craig Rosenberg: You know, sometimes you're gonna hit it and, you know, some people that like, you know, have their [00:16:30] str you know, they sort of nail it out of the gate. But like, look, even folks with have done [00:16:35] everything will come in and if you can't spend money to fail, you're [00:16:40] just not gonna unlock that. Uh, that Craig Rosenberg: thing that works all the time. [00:16:45] That is brutal because if you have to be efficient in trying to figure out [00:16:50] pipeline, you're probably gonna lose. Craig Rosenberg: Right? It's the same thing with SDRs. They [00:16:55] don't really become economical until you figure it [00:17:00] out. Then. And by the way, even now, it's, it's tough. Like if your [00:17:05] contract size isn't big enough, Craig Rosenberg: you know, but like, but I, but that's a different issue. Craig Rosenberg: [00:17:10] The big one is like they, the every, there's so many things that have to [00:17:15] be sort of figured out in order to get to that point of efficient [00:17:20] growth. It's really hard right now because you gotta spend money and you gotta be inefficient [00:17:25] to become efficient and that sort of. That, [00:17:30] that that's not, it's, there's a level of unfairness here. Craig Rosenberg: It's like a, it's a [00:17:35] dangerous like, road to go down, right? Because let's say you're a new CMO and you're starting a new [00:17:40] place and they're, you know, the, well, the, typically you're brought in because the pipeline sucks [00:17:45] and you know, you go in, Craig Rosenberg: you wanna go, but to figure it out costs [00:17:50] money and you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose and you're gonna have to [00:17:55] use that, those losses to go figure out what you want to go do next. Craig Rosenberg: And [00:18:00] that, uh, that initial part of like the sort of that conflict that [00:18:05] you're just mentioning there, mentioning there, Kathy, that's something like I, I think about a lot [00:18:10] is, um, the best, some of the best demand gen people that we've known over the years. [00:18:15] Um, someone's being kidnapped in the background in case you wanna Matt Amundson: Not at my house. [00:18:20] Craig Rosenberg: Okay, good. It's just that Sam's they were. Relatively [00:18:25] efficient, but you know what I mean? Like even like if you, you know, you, Craig Rosenberg: look at the [00:18:30] big numbers people were putting up like back in the day, if there it still was, [00:18:35] it was still cost money, you know? And like, um, and that, [00:18:40] that's like, that's tough. Craig Rosenberg: Okay. So that's one part of what you just said. The second part is [00:18:45] like, um, until you figure it out, you [00:18:50] can't, ai, it's very hard to use AI to help you. Matt always tells people, no, [00:18:55] you figure it out and then you use ai. Craig Rosenberg: And that, that's the thing is like one Craig Rosenberg: of the [00:19:00] reasons why the AI SDR is in it, the market's in flux and [00:19:05] people are trying to figure it out, is you don't go to the AI SDR R and go, we're [00:19:10] sucking at SDR and you go do it. Craig Rosenberg: No, you go, this is how we [00:19:15] SDR to who? Right to like what Craig Rosenberg: accounts, what [00:19:20] people, what you know, what we say, right? And what we do. [00:19:25] And now can AI make this better? And what you'll find is like, [00:19:30] uh, AI SDR R can work, but not until you've figured it Craig Rosenberg: [00:19:35] out. And that. Is like the issue. That's that [00:19:40] secondary issue, which is we gotta have money, we gotta go figure it out, and we gotta use people to do it Craig Rosenberg: [00:19:45] right and brain and you gotta go. Craig Rosenberg: And that, that takes trial and error. And then once you do, [00:19:50] then AI is like this fuel on the fire. So like Jason Lemkin, you see him on [00:19:55] LinkedIn, he's doing incredible stuff. He's narrowed, like he's got what, two [00:20:00] sales reps, he's got, uh, far fewer humans than ever before. And he is [00:20:05] using AI for everything. But guess what, man, he's been in business for 15 years. Craig Rosenberg: Like what they [00:20:10] do, who they sell to, what they sell. These things are established. What the [00:20:15] companies we work with are in either in product market fit, trying to find it or [00:20:20] they found it and now it's, it's like in the washing machine [00:20:25] again. And like that is not like something that's conducive to like [00:20:30] letting AI handle all of these things so that the, when you bring that up, [00:20:35] Kathy, those two uh, big issues come to mind, so, Kathy Macchi: I [00:20:40] think you nailed it. I mean, I agree a hundred percent. I mean, not only on SDRs, [00:20:45] but for everything. Like I did something, some prompt the other day we're doing some research. [00:20:50] Therese was like, oh my God, that's great. Show all our sales people. I'm like, well, I can't just give 'em [00:20:55] the prompt. Like it was, I had the experience to know what to ask, how to refine it, [00:21:00] and I also had good taste about what I wanted as the output. Kathy Macchi: Like you can't just hand that to someone [00:21:05] who's 22 and has never done it before Matt Amundson: Yeah. Kathy Macchi: and, and I agree, like [00:21:10] we've done a lot of ICP work, but unless, it only works when you already figure out your ICP. Now [00:21:15] I'm going through to say, what's your best ones based on customer lifetime value or NRR? But when they [00:21:20] say, oh, we don't know who our market is, I say, well, I don't have anything to analyze. Kathy Macchi: And that is a trial and error. [00:21:25] And I, Craig, I mean you really nailed it. People just wanna AI that and [00:21:30] you've, you've gotta, that's the human part. You've gotta figure that out and you've gotta test enough and [00:21:35] know either this is good or bad and go on to the next, but learn from that, like what didn't work [00:21:40] and that's not ai. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Matt, do you have any comments or are you [00:21:45] just, you're doing the lazy podcaster by the Craig Rosenberg: way, you came up with that term? That was not [00:21:50] me. Matt Amundson: well, Matt Amundson: here's the he's watching the Alcaraz game right now and I'm [00:21:55] hearing a lot of yelling in my back room. So my guess is Alcaraz is doing okay look, here's the thing, [00:22:00] all right? I don't wanna be judged for what's happening in my background. Okay. Number, that's number one. Number [00:22:05] two, lazy podcaster. You're just running with my takes, Craig. Craig Rosenberg: [00:22:10] Well, it was a really good one. It, that one had a deep effect on me. It's one of the, [00:22:15] by the way, it's one of the funnier, you know, when you do your own jokes, you don't really laugh.[00:22:20] Craig Rosenberg: And then, so Matt Amundson: Well, when I listen to the, you laugh at your own jokes. Matt Amundson: I do. Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: [00:22:25] Oh, that's so cool. Kathy Macchi: they're probably good, but he had a very good that he was paying [00:22:30] attention. Look, see if he's being a lazy podcast, he's, he's got it down. Kathy Macchi: I, maybe Kathy Macchi: he's not [00:22:35] even Matt. Maybe he's ai Matt, he's Matt Amundson: See now. Now you're Kathy Macchi: Matt is on this. Matt Amundson: Now Matt Amundson: [00:22:40] you're talking. Craig Rosenberg: Well he told this story, it was incredible about how the sales rep [00:22:45] is pretending to listen and isn't really, and is just, and he's like, it's the lazy podcast. They're like, [00:22:50] Uhhuh. Yeah. Kathy Macchi: Mm-hmm. Craig Rosenberg: And he is like, I know you don't know [00:22:55] what I'm saying. So anyway, sorry Matt. I just, it was such a good take. Uh, it was [00:23:00] actually an Craig Rosenberg: insult comment I think one of the things that. Has to be [00:23:05] done is, and this is, this can be true for a lot of, uh, Go-To-Market [00:23:10] operators who work with technical founders is in a lot of cases, like AI has [00:23:15] reached a point, whether it's in engineering or whether it's in, you know, product [00:23:20] create, uh, like product ideation, like products like lovable and whatnot, where it can do a [00:23:25] lot of the work for you. Right. Like of course you have an understanding of what you're trying to build and you're [00:23:30] prompting it correctly. I think on the Go-To-Market side, AI is way far behind. And [00:23:35] so it's incumbent upon Go-To-Market operators to sort of do the design [00:23:40] work. And what you're talking about, Kathy, is what we heard when we had David Boskovich on here, which is [00:23:45] like, it really, it's, it's not just about what you can create, it comes down to like your taste [00:23:50] level. Right? And I think that this is gonna become like a really important part of marketing as like marketing, [00:23:55] maybe some of the technical stuff gets, uh, um, uh, [00:24:00] executed by AI and the, the arts and crafts element of marketing. You [00:24:05] know, for years we're like, Hey, we're not the arts and crafts team. In a lot of ways we're kind of gonna have to be [00:24:10] right. Matt Amundson: Like, 'cause our taste level around what does the content look like? Uh, you [00:24:15] know, what is the length and breadth of the content, et cetera, is, is gonna become Kathy Macchi: Well, what's good [00:24:20] Yeah. What is good? that event? Yeah, Matt Amundson: But the point I was, I, I, [00:24:25] I wanted to make is, there's, there's gotta be education either at the board level [00:24:30] or with your CEOs for them to understand that like, yes, you probably [00:24:35] can replace people with ai, but like, but you [00:24:40] also can't. You need the right people who can prompt it. And if I took [00:24:45] my marketing team and cut it in half and said, I'm gonna replace their productivity with ai, I think [00:24:50] the better bet would be to say, keep the marketing team and see how much more you [00:24:55] can do with the implementation of AI and not say, Hey, let's subtract so we can be, [00:25:00] you know, just a baseline or maybe 10% more. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Kathy Macchi: I would agree. Craig Rosenberg: [00:25:05] that's a good point. Yeah, for sure. Uh, you know, ca let me do you [00:25:10] just this one talk. So Kathy took over as host of the show and prompted us into [00:25:15] conversation. I Matt Amundson: Yeah. Yeah. Matt Amundson: Guest hosts coming. Craig Rosenberg: guest host. Yeah, guest host. [00:25:20] Um, so two, two other things that came to mind that I might [00:25:25] forget as I'm talking, which Matt Amundson: Oh, I like this. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, Craig Rosenberg: That's why a, a RP is [00:25:30] reaching out is, uh, Kathy Macchi: Constantly because you keep forgetting. Craig Rosenberg: [00:25:35] but there is, and on the other hand, right, on the other hand, [00:25:40] uh, you have to be willing [00:25:45] to, uh, disrupt yourself in this world. Craig Rosenberg: And that's, [00:25:50] in my opinion, what I see from CMOs and CROs is [00:25:55] they keep going. Well, I did this here, like this is what it takes to do [00:26:00] it. Craig Rosenberg: And, and it's like, okay, but like, did you, you know, the, sorry. We had [00:26:05] this episode with David Boskovich. Kathy, you gotta listen to it. The guy Craig Rosenberg: changed a lot of our, but [00:26:10] yeah. Craig Rosenberg: And one of the things that guy did was he just said, you know what? We're gonna crack the whole thing open [00:26:15] and let's just look at it Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm. Craig Rosenberg: let's think differently about everything and anything you can dream [00:26:20] of, let's go see if we can go do it. Craig Rosenberg: Whether it's AI or not, by the way. Like for example, he [00:26:25] has a lot of AI stories, but like, he hired a basically public speaker [00:26:30] actor to do the demos. That's a human play. That's from him rethinking [00:26:35] everything. And by the way, when he pitched that to a guy that, um, you know, one of a, [00:26:40] a another person who was advising him, the guy was, you know. 30 years in tech was [00:26:45] like, well, that's not gonna work. And he is like, oh, it will work and it works great, like [00:26:50] they use Craig Rosenberg: him for. So anyway, it's not just human, it's ai. The, the thing about [00:26:55] like the budget and um, and growth thing is [00:27:00] like, uh, it's, it's a, we're my first two points stand. It's a dangerous [00:27:05] road to like, to, to go cheap into figuring out is not gonna work. Craig Rosenberg: But [00:27:10] on the Craig Rosenberg: other hand, uh, a classic C-M-O-C-R-O [00:27:15] play is, like I said, is to not rethink everything, Craig Rosenberg: not have a good [00:27:20] story about how they re tunk everything and just say, I need this money because this is how we do it.[00:27:25] Craig Rosenberg: And that, that Craig Rosenberg: the biggest, in my opinion, the biggest AI thing [00:27:30] that we should take, that's not about the tech is like, [00:27:35] uh, just. Rethink this just for like, can you just put [00:27:40] your past aside for a sec? You could bring it back in, but let's look at how [00:27:45] we're doing things. Let's look at how buyers buy and see what we might [00:27:50] think differently about, okay, so that's when I heard Craig Rosenberg: you make a noise. Kathy, follow up on that [00:27:55] noise. Go. Kathy Macchi: Yes, I agree with you a [00:28:00] hundred percent. Well, I was also, the Raz game is going on. There's a lot of noise and they keep [00:28:05] coming to my door, so it must be good. But onto this [00:28:10] topic, I think it's hard for a lot of people, and I think it's a a [00:28:15] personality thing who you are. Think of all the MQL and how things were done. Kathy Macchi: Everyone had the funnel, they [00:28:20] had this and they were incredibly successful. They're on stage at every Marketo show. Eloqua [00:28:25] show everything. So now suddenly you're in your late forties, early [00:28:30] fifties or less. If you're Matt and you're now CMO [00:28:35] and you are gonna say to them, everything you did to get here don't do anymore. Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm. Kathy Macchi: [00:28:40] I think it's real. Some people can make the switch and some, I think it's really hard. I've had meetings where they're like, [00:28:45] I understand everything you're saying, but at the same time, ah. You know, it's a [00:28:50] volume game. Like they're still in that mindset and I, I, I think maybe half the people can [00:28:55] make the switch and half the people can, Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. And I think that's, I actually think [00:29:00] we're all agreeing with each other too much, but that I think is what's [00:29:05] happening right now. Matt Amundson: I don't think that's what's happening right now. Craig Rosenberg: 50 oh, [00:29:10] you don't Craig Rosenberg: think 50% of the executive, 50% of the executives right now [00:29:15] won't, can't make, can't bring themselves around to make the switch. That is true. Matt Amundson: No, [00:29:20] I'm joking with you, you said, but Matt Amundson: we're agreeing too much. I hate you Craig Rosenberg: that've Kathy Macchi: I don't [00:29:25] think that's the only thing go, but I don't think that's the only thing going on. I think the economy has a [00:29:30] big thing to do with it right now. So if you have anyone 35 or [00:29:35] younger on your team, they've never seen a downturn like never. Matt Amundson: yeah. Kathy Macchi: So [00:29:40] everything's just gone up. I'm like my whole lot, you know, like I can go back [00:29:45] 87, you know, the 97, the 2001, the 2008, like that's the economy. Kathy Macchi: And [00:29:50] so for the first time companies who have been around, it was like a 17 year run. If you've run a [00:29:55] company pretty much the last 20 years, you've never seen a downturn. And now [00:30:00] that they have one, I think that's why you're getting, even when companies making money, they're slashing. It's [00:30:05] just like, oh my God, everything's a slog now. Kathy Macchi: It's hard. I'm just gonna cut everything. But [00:30:10] I mean, that's the last almost 20 years where that, we've been on [00:30:15] an amazing run. And so everyone's uncomfortable. Like I've never dealt with this [00:30:20] situation as a, as a CMO, as a CEO, as anything. And I think your first [00:30:25] thing is CFOs. I'm not gonna spend money to this predictability. Kathy Macchi: You are like, we have to cut, we get rid of [00:30:30] staff. It's ai. Like I think it's just people panic. Matt Amundson: I think, I [00:30:35] mean, I, uh, I think a lot about, uh, you know, I, I [00:30:40] think of everything in the context of that, the sales deck, right? That we always talk about. The [00:30:45] world's greatest sales deck, where it's like, Hey, we now live in an AI economy [00:30:50] and here's all the proof points. There's winners and losers, and there's people who [00:30:55] are winning. Matt Amundson: There's clear examples, right? Like the cursors of the world, the lovable of the world. [00:31:00] Uh, I mean, windsurf, CEO definitely won, uh, [00:31:05] the rest of their Matt Amundson: company. I'm not so sure. Um, and there are [00:31:10] losers, right? Like there are people that are getting crushed by, you know, a [00:31:15] couple of kids that'll build a AI application in a couple of weeks, [00:31:20] uh, that, you know, can, can, you know, stomp out the incumbent competition. [00:31:25] And so I think that there's fear. Uh, I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying [00:31:30] it's purely uh, uh, or it's not economically driven, but I think that there is like this [00:31:35] massive sea change that's coming. It's part of the reason why Craig and I started this, this podcast. Although, you know, we started [00:31:40] like before ai. Uh, coming to the forefront the way it is, but there's not [00:31:45] enough, there's not enough people telling you what to do with these, with the new technology or how to build the new [00:31:50] playbook. And so people are scared. And I think [00:31:55] what Craig said is right, which is like you have to challenge your own [00:32:00] assumptions around what you can do with ai. Matt Amundson: You've got to give yourself the space to [00:32:05] experiment with it. 'cause the reality is, if you don't, it's gonna come from the top [00:32:10] and they're just gonna say, uh, with AI you can do with half, you can, you can do it, [00:32:15] right? So it's, if you do not do the work to make the [00:32:20] shifts around whatever your process is, whether it's content creation, whether it's [00:32:25] product marketing, whether it's demand gen programs to incorporate ai, someone will do it for [00:32:30] you. Matt Amundson: And that's gonna hurt a whole lot more than you figuring it out your [00:32:35] yourself. Kathy Macchi: Yeah, I think there's two things there, Matt. One is I think people are taking [00:32:40] AI and just imp like a BDR. Let's just AI the BDR process [00:32:45] as opposed to let's rethink what do people want? Well I want information. I can't get off your website. So [00:32:50] is the problem. You should AI your website first, or how to serve up content difference. Kathy Macchi: So I think a [00:32:55] lot of it's just we're just optimizing a process we already have in place. [00:33:00] And then there was another point I was gonna make, but I'm gonna turn it to Craig while I rethink that [00:33:05] point now. 'cause I can't remember it. I'm falling into the Craig Trap. Craig Rosenberg: [00:33:10] I, I, I, uh, I often do that where I'm like, Hey, Craig Rosenberg: while you [00:33:15] guys do, Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: while you guys do that, I'm gonna go get water. And then, you know, I come back and I could just, I have [00:33:20] like the instantaneous move on 'cause I have no idea what I was gonna say. I mean it's unbelievable. [00:33:25] And lemme give you my second one, which is a lead in for you, Kathy. We [00:33:30] just had this conversa, I started to write this, you guys on my LinkedIn post on [00:33:35] another Boskovich clip where he was like, here's what we do. We segment into [00:33:40] groups of 100 to 500 accounts that have relatively homogenous use cases and [00:33:45] messaging. And if there's over 500, then we keep segmenting down. And I [00:33:50] was just going, first of all, that's ABM. Kathy Macchi: Mm-hmm. [00:33:55] this big issue. Craig Rosenberg: We just had a guy on the show. It's like ABM didn't work. It's like, but his [00:34:00] definition was passing information to sales via Slack. It's like, no, it [00:34:05] was about targeting. A lot of the issues that people try to solve are [00:34:10] downstream instead of just targeting who and like the who thing is, [00:34:15] has been, in my opinion, amazing. Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm. Kathy Macchi: [00:34:20] The who is everything, like 65% of your success comes when do you have the right accounts? [00:34:25] Do you have the right accounts? And people, because everything else, if you have the wrong accounts, doesn't [00:34:30] matter. I mean, and really the nice thing with AI is you can [00:34:35] basically, you do ABM at scale now for the first time and not ABM at scale. Kathy Macchi: Like where people are talking about [00:34:40] like, I'm gonna choose the top 10,000 accounts and I'm just gonna email [00:34:45] them all the same thing. Like that's the same message the whole thing is, and I find use cases being one of the [00:34:50] best ways to segment. A lot of times it's industry and then use case. [00:34:55] And if you can get those things down, and I love these saying once you have 500, split it [00:35:00] again. Kathy Macchi: I worked with a guy a long time ago. He was from. Uh, [00:35:05] Wipro and he's the one that really pushed us on that. It was [00:35:10] like it was a hundred and, and of course we deal with much at Wipro. They sold to the top [00:35:15] 1500 accounts in the world. They're like, if you're sending out something more than a hundred people [00:35:20] stop. Kathy Macchi: Like it's not personalized enough. And that really stuck with me. Like, [00:35:25] learn more about them, and then you can send something out and he just shut [00:35:30] it down. But it makes you do the research and that's one thing you can do at scale now. That was a luxury [00:35:35] we didn't have before. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, for Craig Rosenberg: sure. And there's a second part to it that Kovich also [00:35:40] brought. So this is a guy, by the way, Kathy, who figured it all out for, as Craig Rosenberg: a developer, this was not [00:35:45] a Kathy Macchi: Wow. Craig Rosenberg: OG Go-To-Market guy. As you can tell, we love the [00:35:50] guy. He's like, and he's also amazing to hang out with. Matt Amundson: great. Hang. Craig Rosenberg: but what you just said is really [00:35:55] important. Craig Rosenberg: When there's a hundred and they have a, a homogenous use [00:36:00] case, researching them is actually [00:36:05] more effective. And being able to, you know, think about just a [00:36:10] relevant touch that's gonna work for that group. Like, he's doing these [00:36:15] market reports in AI and he like was able to test with like three. [00:36:20] CEOs, he's like, it worked. Craig Rosenberg: He's only got a hundred accounts, so it's perfect. He knows that these [00:36:25] folks are this very similar and I got this thing that will work. And you know, a lot of [00:36:30] these young folks aren't calling it ABM, but they're using tools, Craig Rosenberg: you know, like Clay, and [00:36:35] they are Craig Rosenberg: going at like 45 accounts at a time. I'm like, Hallel fricking hallelujah, [00:36:40] man. Like, that is how you do it. And, uh, you know, [00:36:45] uh, it's, everyone's like, well, it doesn't scale. Yes it does, because what these kids Craig Rosenberg: are doing that [00:36:50] all of us old folks are like, did I is they go find another 45. Like, it, [00:36:55] it's like they're, but they're finding people where the use case makes total Craig Rosenberg: sense and they can [00:37:00] get, wrap their hands around it. The other thing you guys, I just gotta tell you. So, so [00:37:05] like targeting, um, I think it's still like [00:37:10] this thing that, uh. I can walk in if I were in Kathy's shoes still, [00:37:15] like Topo, we used to do this all the time. We'd go in and they'd be worried about some point in [00:37:20] the revenue process that got stuck and you could attribute a lot of the [00:37:25] issues there. Craig Rosenberg: There's always execution issues. Do not get me wrong, Matt can tell you about his [00:37:30] favorite salesperson, you know, trying to deliver to him a Craig Rosenberg: demo. But you can [00:37:35] attribute Lyft, like you could see Lyft by changing who you put in the [00:37:40] top against every part of the revenue cycle. I still tell the story of Gainsight [00:37:45] Man. They had a app for retention. [00:37:50] They had a retention problem, they tried everything 'cause they were [00:37:55] experts at it. They figured out that the SMB was the big churn [00:38:00] problem. Craig Rosenberg: So they just started giving it away. Craig Rosenberg: They said SMB, here's three of our competitors. [00:38:05] Take it. Churn fixed, not just lifted, [00:38:10] done. Craig Rosenberg: Now they're in the benchmark area and it's like the, the targeting thing. Craig Rosenberg: You could [00:38:15] do such crazy stuff now that like, and learn so [00:38:20] much. Like we had Jordan Crawford on and he's like, put your wins into AI [00:38:25] and ask it to tell you two things that you don't know about these accounts that are common between [00:38:30] all five to 10, even if you're a startup. And he is like, dude, you'll learn things you never [00:38:35] even thought of. Craig Rosenberg: It's like for us ABM folks, this is the greatest time to do Craig Rosenberg: [00:38:40] this, ever. Craig Rosenberg: It's unbelievable. All right, so Kathy, I, you [00:38:45] agreed with me again Kathy Macchi: I did. Craig Rosenberg: one and if 15 Love or whatever Kathy Macchi: [00:38:50] Yeah. Whatever. Craig Rosenberg: is is 15 Love. Good. Matt Amundson: It's just the start, Craig Rosenberg: [00:38:55] Oh, okay. Well, he's Craig Rosenberg: starting, like one nothing thing. Craig Rosenberg: Okay, [00:39:00] well, he's, he's getting there. Um, so, uh, so yeah, [00:39:05] but Kathy, tell us like, just really quick on that topic and then you can, uh, re rekindle [00:39:10] us, but, um, it sound like how, how is [00:39:15] the market, uh, different in terms of [00:39:20] receptiveness to a lot of the fundamentals that you've been teaching over the years on [00:39:25] the account based side? Craig Rosenberg: Like, do you see, like, in my opinion, it's the young startups that have [00:39:30] figured out segmentation without calling it segmentation, but like in the mid-market [00:39:35] and up the folks that you work with. Like, what, what are you seeing? And not just segmentation, but like everything, [00:39:40] like how Kathy Macchi: I find people are getting the audience part now, [00:39:45] but it's really hard. It's still, what's that saying? Uh. [00:39:50] If you have the data, show me the data, but if not, we'll go with my opinion. You know, that, uh, [00:39:55] you know, and a lot of it still, we just got off a call with a client [00:40:00] and everyone, oh, here's our ICP and we had five different answers from five [00:40:05] different executives, Matt Amundson: Right. Kathy Macchi: And so you've gotta pull, get into the data. [00:40:10] And really what I've seen lately is like, yeah, like what you talked about with Gainsight, that's a perfor. We [00:40:15] have one recently where, you know, we saw anyone could use our product, which [00:40:20] is a really bad place to go. You know, like, yeah, anyone could so, you know, target it, like find it [00:40:25] out. Kathy Macchi: But when we went through the end of the year, you know, mostly they went to [00:40:30] under 50 K deals and it was like this much of their revenue, but this much of their [00:40:35] effort. And so now it's like, okay, now we proved it. Who really are our [00:40:40] best customers and who's not gonna churn? And even if they are gonna churn, maybe you have a different motion [00:40:45] Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Kathy Macchi: If they are gonna churn, Hey, you have to hit a number each quarter [00:40:50] regardless. We know we can win 'em in 60 days, wanna take 'em. But they're not gonna get any CSMs. They just get [00:40:55] online support. Or when you have customers that have your whole platform to churn, maybe they need to get white [00:41:00] glove. Like just because they're not in your ICP. Kathy Macchi: How can you make them in your ICP? Is there a different way to [00:41:05] service them so they're profitable? And that's what I'm seeing some of those conversations starting to be. [00:41:10] And I also see people changing markets now, like they really need to expand their [00:41:15] markets and so they have to look at other places. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. [00:41:20] Oh, so they were actually locked in on a segment and now they've got expanded and they're [00:41:25] gonna have to use data to go figure those things out. That makes, Craig Rosenberg: that makes sense. That's a. [00:41:30] That's a similar problem, different situation. Okay. That's [00:41:35] cool. All right, well then I think then we've made progress as an industry. Craig Rosenberg: On the [00:41:40] audience side, I think we'll have to continue to figure out like how we get five people [00:41:45] on the same page. Uh, what, so let's, is there anything else from the [00:41:50] CCMO council that you want to bring up, or should we go to? Kathy Macchi: You go, well, [00:41:55] dealer's choice on this. Craig, go for it. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, so what do you think of [00:42:00] Matt? Kathy Macchi: Other than he is handsome. Matt Amundson: Oh Matt Amundson: man. There we [00:42:05] go. Craig Rosenberg: damnit Matt Amundson: Let the weekend begin. God, let's end on that. [00:42:10] Craig Rosenberg: this thing down. Go watch Allez. Matt Amundson: wow. Craig Rosenberg: Um, [00:42:15] so, uh, can I go, can I get really tactical with Kathy? Matt Amundson: Yeah, let's do it.[00:42:20] Craig Rosenberg: Okay. cause she just. Uh, works with a different set [00:42:25] of customers mind. So Kathy, you know, I'm doing a ton with really early stage, so we're [00:42:30] just sort of Craig Rosenberg: figuring this stuff out, um, channels. [00:42:35] So we've sort of moved from audience into what works from a channel perspective. [00:42:40] Um, so I'm just going to, can I, well, is there, [00:42:45] is there any trends around like, what's working more than [00:42:50] others? Or is should I still be thinking about it as a mix, but like, [00:42:55] I don't know, you know, like I get asked all the time, should I do targeted ads? Craig Rosenberg: [00:43:00] Should I do LinkedIn? Like, uh, and um, like we've seen on the [00:43:05] SDR side, like if, if the, if the market's receptive to the phone, [00:43:10] calling's working great again, um, for the, that, that cohort [00:43:15] and email's not, um, you know, uh. The data. I [00:43:20] just looked at data. This, this guy's, uh, uh, really interesting. I'll, [00:43:25] I'll, I'll look up his name as O Omar. Craig Rosenberg: Um, we're gonna have him on the Kathy Macchi: Oh yeah. Omar, he [00:43:30] used to be with, uh, altimeter. Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: Yes. Omar Atar. Craig Rosenberg: And he, [00:43:35] oh, he's dude, his new company. He's amazing. And I, [00:43:40] Omar, please forgive me for forgetting your name. We just talked about my A A RP moments, but, [00:43:45] um, but yeah, like he, he, he went through a bunch of stuff and some of it's [00:43:50] intuitive, but like real, he is, like, if you're in PLG, it's all paid search. [00:43:55] Right. And, Kathy Macchi: Mm-hmm. Craig Rosenberg: and he said, but the, you know, sort of sales, [00:44:00] not sales lab, but you know, non PLG money from digital's going [00:44:05] into one-to-one field events, because those are the number one. [00:44:10] Um, tactic for many people. So I'm just gonna, that's my long setup for you, but any [00:44:15] insights for us on that? Like Craig Rosenberg: getting in the weeds, like here, things that Craig Rosenberg: we should think about. Kathy Macchi: So the [00:44:20] two points, so one is yes, events we've seen that really come back and [00:44:25] more small, intimate events, Mm-hmm. things like that. And again, not PLG, you have to have a decent. [00:44:30] Price point. But I think people are enjoying that. I, I, you know, I, there was a [00:44:35] CMO I was talking to the other day and she said, yeah, I'm looking for small events to go [00:44:40] to with other CMOs. Kathy Macchi: Like that's been a consistent, but I will say without, it's still an [00:44:45] integrated thing. Like you just can't do a dinner. Like there's no silver bullet. Everyone wants to know what's the channel? [00:44:50] And what I'll say is, if you really did statistical analysis, I will tell you [00:44:55] that as many people that went to your dinner bought from you was probably who didn't buy from [00:45:00] you. Kathy Macchi: And when you took your ad, I mean, like, yeah, everyone who bought from us went to a dinner. Yeah. Well everyone [00:45:05] went to your webinar. Half of them didn't buy either. Like, so they just [00:45:10] like do, like people aren't used to statistics otherwise you'd be like email. [00:45:15] Well you would never email anyone 'cause look at the low rate of conversion. Kathy Macchi: But if people giving up email, no. [00:45:20] So I think it's the channel matters, but I think it matters more. Do you have something to [00:45:25] say and what is your offer? And then just put it out in every damn channel. Like, [00:45:30] Yeah. worry so much about the, the channel is the least important. [00:45:35] You know, Craig Rosenberg: I, I think Sam, make sure you cut that for [00:45:40] LinkedIn. Sam Guertin: You got it. Craig Rosenberg: Uh, yeah, that was a good, that was a very good rant. So [00:45:45] I'm gonna respond because, uh, I forgot the first [00:45:50] response, but I do remember the second one. So we were just talking about A A Kathy Macchi: This is [00:45:55] like podcast for the senior group. We'll just have a separate one. We'll, [00:46:00] Craig, and I'll be like, I had another point, but I can't remember it. Can you? Craig Rosenberg: Oh, that'll be fun. [00:46:05] We gotta do like golden girls. Craig Rosenberg: Uh, I'm you other two? Sam? Matt, you can't be [00:46:10] on it, but I've got some other folks that could join. We can be the marketing curmudgeons, [00:46:15] you know? Oh yeah, I remember that. Matt Amundson: That's not based on age. I've been that for [00:46:20] years. Craig Rosenberg: yeah. So, uh, so I, um, [00:46:25] a couple, couple reactions. One is I just wanna tell you guys a [00:46:30] channel, uh, experience. I had Allah, A A RP, and Bank, bank of America, my [00:46:35] bank, Craig Rosenberg: because they sent, they sent me this offer and I, we all get [00:46:40] the offers, but they did. Digital multiple times, and then [00:46:45] sent me, they're my bank, so they sent me mail. Craig Rosenberg: So I felt like I had to open it, and Craig Rosenberg: it [00:46:50] was that offer, and I went back to the digital to open it and actually [00:46:55] inquired about it. The multi-channel thing, I think sometimes we think about it, we [00:47:00] don't think about it the right way. Like we always think, well, they don't, like they didn't read the email. [00:47:05] Well, probably not, or they did and they moved on, or they kind of looked [00:47:10] at it like, we don't know, but like, that's why what Kathy's saying is really important, which is [00:47:15] like, well then they sent me mail that I actually opened and I was worried that, you know, I was, you know, [00:47:20] the, you know, I, I was in trouble with something, so I read it and I'm like, oh, well that's interesting. [00:47:25] Right? And it's like, uh, an auto refinance. I'm like, that sounds good to [00:47:30] me. Right. Although that it Kathy Macchi: Didn't your car get stolen? Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: So I'm [00:47:35] refinancing The car that, yeah. Yeah, both of 'em. I have two new cars now, Craig Rosenberg: just So [00:47:40] everyone four Matt Amundson: cars. Craig Rosenberg: That's correct. And I, so I wanna refinance the four cars, [00:47:45] but the, but you know, multi-channel is, um, [00:47:50] it's, it, you're, you're, that's right. Craig Rosenberg: I asked you for channel, and it's really about [00:47:55] the, the, the, the, you know, the variety of channels with the same message. [00:48:00] I, I a hundred percent agree with that. Okay, so speaking of channels, so [00:48:05] one of my pet projects has been to get people to follow the LinkedIn [00:48:10] transaction page. But, uh, so I tried the thing where you, uh, [00:48:15] invite people via the, the page, right? Craig Rosenberg: It says invite members, and it sends them [00:48:20] essentially like a direct mail that comes and it says, Craig Rosenberg has [00:48:25] invited you to this page, and it doesn't convert. It, It, like, well, I ha actually I have [00:48:30] figured that out. I'll tell you guys about that in a second. But the, but what we did was I got [00:48:35] hay reach and Craig Rosenberg: I cut the people, so I [00:48:40] had. Craig Rosenberg: Um, I took the people in my network [00:48:45] and then cut out the people that are already following the page [00:48:50] and then narrowed that which was hand to hand by people that I knew, knew me [00:48:55] because I didn't want to do this like, and were like understood my humor [00:49:00] because I tested a formal hey, reach message and it bombed. Craig Rosenberg: But then when I [00:49:05] tested against friends with a informal message, that was more me, it worked. So I [00:49:10] got 1500 people that I consider friends or pseudo friends, and I put it in, Hey, reach. [00:49:15] And with that I was, I used, so I used an automated message, but I was able [00:49:20] to put in a little humor. And what I did was I said, this is an AI message. Craig Rosenberg: I sent [00:49:25] this with hay reach, right? So I admitted it and I sort of try to make a joke about it. [00:49:30] And our conversion rate has been incredible. Um, like the [00:49:35] first set it was like 50%. Um, now it's probably gonna be like 30. I'm in sort of a [00:49:40] different friend zone type of thing. Um, and uh, I [00:49:45] just, it's interesting because it was automated. Um, it was [00:49:50] not necessarily written by ai, but it was mass send. But I knew [00:49:55] my audience. They, I had to have people that had seen me make jokes about [00:50:00] myself. Right. Been self-effacing, like those kinds of things and made them the targets. It was a really a [00:50:05] personality thing. And conversion rate's been great. I've [00:50:10] had people laugh and respond and we've reconnected and jumped on calls. Matt Amundson: Could [00:50:15] they text LOL or, Craig Rosenberg: Oh no, not tag. Yeah, nobody moved it [00:50:20] from, from channel to channel. Matt, they've remained in the LinkedIn channel, but [00:50:25] yes, I Matt Amundson: well, how do you know they left? That's not like a video channel. Craig Rosenberg: I got like [00:50:30] 13 LO Ls. Matt Amundson: There we go. That's what I was looking Kathy Macchi: I am gonna make it That's a [00:50:35] KPI. gonna make it 14. Craig Rosenberg: Thank you. Did I send it to you too? Uh, Craig Rosenberg: 16 [00:50:40] haws. 16 haws, Craig Rosenberg: uh, no. Only one or two with exclamation [00:50:45] points and one complaint. Sam Guertin: Ooh. Craig Rosenberg: [00:50:50] Yes. It was amazing. I'm like, oh, and she's from Germany, so she's probably just a little more formal. She [00:50:55] said, well, in in my opinion, it's more polite to greet someone. [00:51:00] But here's the thing, you guys, I tested it. The greeting [00:51:05] converted less because in my, I, I don't know, we can only con, uh, [00:51:10] guess why, but when I pulled up the, yes, this is AI and I'm reaching out to you to [00:51:15] the top a joke, then conversion went up. Matt Amundson: hmm. Craig Rosenberg: but anyway, I, [00:51:20] I, uh, I just thought I'd mentioned that it, it's worked really well with one complaint. [00:51:25] Um, and, uh, but it, so someone say, well, you did a mass [00:51:30] email. You used automation to do it. But I knew my audience. [00:51:35] I had a except for one, and I knew what they [00:51:40] appreciated and I was willing to lose a little bit for a, a bigger conversion rate. And [00:51:45] so, um. Kathy Macchi: So did you hit your number Kathy Macchi: that Yeah, [00:51:50] well, we'll see. Like we have a bigger, Matt set a slightly higher goal. Craig Rosenberg: I'm on my [00:51:55] way. Um, I said originally to get to a thousand and we were at like 700. I [00:52:00] got us there and then I created a new tranche. We're going for 1500, so it's a [00:52:05] bigger jump. Craig Rosenberg: Um, and I think we're at 1170 or something, so, you know, [00:52:10] we're Craig Rosenberg: getting shooting up the airwaves Matt Amundson: baby. Craig Rosenberg: Hey Rachel, he lets you send 40 [00:52:15] a day, Matt Amundson: Come on. Hey, reach, let's ex, let's, let's increase Sam Guertin: 202 new [00:52:20] followers in the last 30 days. Kathy Macchi: I thought you were saying the last 30 minutes. Yeah. [00:52:25] kidding. Yeah, Craig Rosenberg: yeah. Craig Rosenberg: Kathy's clamoring. Kathy Macchi: Clamoring Craig Rosenberg: Craig would [00:52:30] call me, I've got this on lock. Okay. So, sorry, I just thought I, I have no idea why I mentioned [00:52:35] that that was, but it was fun to mention. Okay. What, um, [00:52:40] you guys always in the ABM world always talk about [00:52:45] sales. Matt Amundson: Yeah. And, uh until [00:52:50] something gets sold. Craig Rosenberg: oh. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. [00:52:55] Ironically, my Mike Kathy Macchi: Yeah. That's a real good LinkedIn post. That's one of those, Sound bite. [00:53:00] we've got it. If it's in stock, we've got it. Nothing gets sold, you know? Craig Rosenberg: [00:53:05] Uh, yeah, the, um, but, um, [00:53:10] the, you know, sales is changing a lot as well, and they're gonna have to, you know, [00:53:15] get more out of each sales rep. 'cause you know, the same thing we're talking about from a CMO perspective that's happening [00:53:20] with sales. And, you know, uh, like Ryan Aze, who I work with, I [00:53:25] said, well, look guys, if we get a hundred K quota lift out of the, the reps, that's, [00:53:30] you know, depending on their numbers, let's say it's 10 reps. Craig Rosenberg: Like if we could just get that [00:53:35] lift right? And, um, the same problem sort of exists on the ai. So [00:53:40] AI can accelerate. What you know to be right. [00:53:45] But if you don't know what to is right, then it's actually not gonna [00:53:50] help you much. Um, but that's, that's a different topic. The topic I want to [00:53:55] talk about is the targeting and the changes that you've seen, Kathy, on the [00:54:00] marketing side, was that for marketing or was that for sales as well? Craig Rosenberg: Like, are, are they more [00:54:05] receptive to, uh, a more targeted account based approach, [00:54:10] or are they Craig Rosenberg: still begging for Kathy Macchi: that's a mix still. That is [00:54:15] still a mix. Yeah. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. How about you, Matt? [00:54:20] I, Matt Amundson: I find, uh, it's interesting, I [00:54:25] think like individual sales reps are like pretty keen to test out ai. I haven't [00:54:30] seen like the top down approach all that much just [00:54:35] yet. Um, uh, I see that much more on the marketing side Matt Amundson: [00:54:40] unless, unless you're talking sales development, which in a lot of cases is Matt Amundson: in sales. but I [00:54:45] think you, you add in another issue though. So once, so we've done this with ICP work, so let's [00:54:50] say we redo it. Great. Here's your ICP, then it affects territory planning [00:54:55] Yeah. and you can't do that in the middle of the year. Like we do one, and they're like, well, there're not enough accounts in [00:55:00] certain territories. Kathy Macchi: And you can't change that midyear for anyone. So that's a, for [00:55:05] me, in sales, that's sort of a once a year thing. So you've gotta plan ahead of that. A few months, what are we gonna do with that [00:55:10] list? Because Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Matt, Matt answered a different question, [00:55:15] Kathy, so thank you for redirecting us back to the topic at hand. Matt Amundson: What. the, [00:55:20] uh, can I just, I can I, can I just add to what Kathy said, [00:55:25] which was the actual conversation is, uh, uh, the. [00:55:30] Greg did you guy, Greg Alexander was the founder of SBI. [00:55:35] And like, you know, he was a gruff dude. Craig Rosenberg: Like he was tough, but like he was a friend of [00:55:40] of mine. I used to love taking that guy out to a drink and just hearing his [00:55:45] thoughts on stuff. And he had this thing on territory design. He would say, [00:55:50] it was like for me, like I carried it with me everywhere on ABM. He said, look, everyone views [00:55:55] territory design as fairness. And he is like, that's not it. [00:56:00] It's putting the right person in front of the account. They are more [00:56:05] likely to close. Craig Rosenberg: And he is like, if you take that [00:56:10] concept, then you might do dynamic territories. You would [00:56:15] likely, and on enterprise level you assign 'em regardless of geo. Right, like, [00:56:20] you, you, you, you want. And he said like, I, you know, he was talking about, you know, where he would [00:56:25] be in an account. Craig Rosenberg: He'd be like, well, like, what do we know? Like, where are they most likely to close now? [00:56:30] Back then it was like, who can get to the CIO of this Craig Rosenberg: company? Right? It's fine. It's still a, [00:56:35] still a start. And he'd say, then you put 'em on it because he's like, I'd [00:56:40] fight with the C. He'd be like, well, it's not his territory. Craig Rosenberg: It's like, do you wanna close that account or not? [00:56:45] He's like, well, you can introduce him. I'm like, again, do you want to cl if you want to [00:56:50] close that account, let's put the biggest percentage odds against that by matching the Craig Rosenberg: right [00:56:55] person with the right account. It's actually, it's very account based [00:57:00] conceptually. Craig Rosenberg: But you know, if you think to all the territory discussions you've had, uh, [00:57:05] you often don't Here that con you put Craig Rosenberg: that Kathy Macchi: never heard that. Craig Rosenberg: yeah, [00:57:10] plant this in your head, plant this in Kathy Macchi: I like it and Craig Rosenberg: then go. It's great. [00:57:15] It's great. Honestly, so there you go. We'll leave it at that on [00:57:20] that one. Um, all right. Kathy Macchi: Oh, wait a minute. I wanna go. So Matt, you've been in sales law. How would you implement [00:57:25] something like that? Like how would you decide? Matt Amundson: I wouldn't, Matt Amundson: I wouldn't, [00:57:30] I wouldn't. I mean, I think, I think it, what, what, what Craig is talking about [00:57:35] is the absolute right way to do it, but that, how are you gonna, how are you gonna get, how are you gonna [00:57:40] roll that out, Kathy Macchi: So is that one of those things that sounds great at a hundred thousand foot, but it Well, and [00:57:45] I think like an expert CRO can roll something like that out and, and make it work and massage it [00:57:50] and make it feel like it's equitable for everybody. And like, I am not in favor of [00:57:55] like, necessarily quote unquote fairness. But at the same time, it's like, [00:58:00] when I think about the practicality of something like that, and I've been working in startups for most of my career, [00:58:05] I've only really been at one large organization, uh, is [00:58:10] if it's not equitable, if the reps think that they can't close, if they think that they're [00:58:15] being mistreated, they bail. Matt Amundson: And you, you know, you run into like a pretty difficult sales [00:58:20] culture. I'm not saying that. That's right. Right. Like all I Matt Amundson: really, you know, I'm, I'm getting towards the end of my [00:58:25] career. All I wanna do is win. All I wanna do is win. Give me another exit, gimme two more exits and I'll [00:58:30] call it a day. And whatever's the fastest way to get there, I, you know, I'm all for that. Matt Amundson: I [00:58:35] just. Matt Amundson: Being the CMO and looking across the aisle at my peer as A CRO and [00:58:40] saying like, Hey, try to see if you can roll this out without having pitchforks and torches at your front [00:58:45] door. You know? Good luck. Craig Rosenberg: Okay. Let me address that really Matt Amundson: Yeah, please [00:58:50] do. Craig Rosenberg: because, no, I think that, I think that's right, that at the end of the day, you can't move [00:58:55] fast enough by taking that concept, Craig Rosenberg: but the concept's better because [00:59:00] one is for eight to 10 account, like strategic account reps, you [00:59:05] shouldn't do any other. Methodology Matt Amundson: agree with that. and you should Craig Rosenberg: [00:59:10] hire for those accounts. Craig Rosenberg: One of the things he used to do was he would have the list of target [00:59:15] accounts. They would look for reps that sold in an account. He said, great, get me a, as the interview process. [00:59:20] Go get me a call with the CIO. Matt Amundson: That's badass. Craig Rosenberg: had to prove they could get in there. Okay, [00:59:25] so that's on the high end. Craig Rosenberg: On the low end though, dynamic Territories is [00:59:30] interesting, like what Gradient Works is Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm. which is matching accounts in real [00:59:35] time to the right rep. So you can do it at scale Kathy Macchi: How do they Kathy Macchi: side the [00:59:40] right rep? What does that mean? Craig Rosenberg: Well, it should be data driven, right? Like does that rep [00:59:45] ha, is that rep more likely to close that kind of account in use case, Matt Amundson: Yeah. But Matt Amundson: the thing that Matt Amundson: [00:59:50] I fear is that like, it, uh, an engine like that might only make things more [00:59:55] equitable, right. So it's like, oh, well Craig's already, you know, he's only 10% away from his [01:00:00] quota and Matt's, you know, sitting on a big fat zero, so let's get him stuff and Right. And [01:00:05] if it's just, if it's feeding me and I'm a low performer, it's just gonna get low [01:00:10] performance. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, yeah. No, but that, but that assumes that it's only feeding the low. [01:00:15] Perform Matt Amundson: right, right, right, right. right. And, and you, you know, but if you took that [01:00:20] concept of the best rep to close that account, you know what I, you know, that's [01:00:25] like, um, uh, you know, you need Michael Jordan's teammates to do [01:00:30] pretty well, but if Michael Jordan wants something, you give it to him. Craig Rosenberg: And like, and if the [01:00:35] guy's at 90%, you actually have that guy, he's clearly shown he can, you give Matt Amundson: [01:00:40] Yes, exactly. use him. Matt Amundson: Exactly. Craig Rosenberg: And that, that, [01:00:45] so, and I've never recommended this on the low end, what I just said. Matt Amundson: Yeah, Craig Rosenberg: To be honest [01:00:50] that makes sense then. Craig Rosenberg: it's too hard, it's, it's just too hard. I don't, you know, for [01:00:55] me, sales reps quitting 'cause they don't get the right accounts, is just because you're not thinking about your account [01:01:00] strategy strategically. Craig Rosenberg: 'cause you have to hire for it, organize for [01:01:05] it, and all those things. Craig Rosenberg: If someone can't have an account, [01:01:10] so think about that. Like, if you put this in play and said, I'm gonna put the right accounts to the right reps, [01:01:15] and then someone doesn't have enough good accounts, then they're, they shouldn't be on the team. Matt Amundson: I totally Craig Rosenberg: It sounds [01:01:20] crazy. Um, but, but I do agree, Matt, like generally it's hard to [01:01:25] imagine in mid-market. Although mid-markets often ch their numbers [01:01:30] are often lower than SMB and Enterprise. Craig Rosenberg: So maybe that's something we should [01:01:35] consider, but you're looking at strategic enterprise, doesn't matter where they're located, it's the [01:01:40] best place to close. Craig Rosenberg: It might matter where they're located, Craig Rosenberg: right? Because you might wanna wait out front their building every [01:01:45] day. Um, and then like on, it's actually really interesting in [01:01:50] velocity, especially like inbound velocity. Can you, can the wheel spin to the [01:01:55] right types of reps. But, um, but yeah, we can have Hayes Davis come on and [01:02:00] talk about dynamic territories one day and how that works. Craig Rosenberg: And we'll Matt Amundson: that would be fun. Craig Rosenberg: he is in [01:02:05] Austin so they can go get breakfast tacos together. Okay. Kathy Macchi: we could just do the podcast from the [01:02:10] restaurant Kathy Macchi: while Matt Amundson: Yeah. That's an excuse for us to come down there. Matt Amundson: So Craig Rosenberg: World tour. World tour. [01:02:15] Kathy Macchi: Another month. Kathy Macchi: It's a good time to be here. Not September too hot. [01:02:20] October. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. I, I like that. Um, we'll make that up. Okay, so we're at time.[01:02:25] Matt Amundson: Supersized show today. What a, Yeah, great job. What a great dang it. That was good. [01:02:30] Highly interactive too. I love that. And even though Alcaraz, who I don't [01:02:35] know by the way, I gotta learn about this guy Craig Rosenberg: was playing. Um, I'll go watch a little bit of [01:02:40] this guy play Craig Rosenberg: tennis. Craig Rosenberg: I don't know anything about tennis, but I'll, Craig Rosenberg: I'll watch it. Kathy Macchi: this people watching at my house and [01:02:45] they keep coming. I have a, you know, like French door, oh, something just happened, you know, like [01:02:50] Matt Amundson: It's a watch party. It's a Craig Rosenberg: Well, no, Kathy Macchi: party and then they come and they're trying to give me [01:02:55] signals at the door, like. Craig Rosenberg: Sam Sam's [01:03:00] segmentation of our audience has told us that there's a 14% Alcaraz [01:03:05] fan rate in, in Craig Rosenberg: our database. Yeah, we're Matt Amundson: gonna Kathy Macchi: there's an [01:03:10] 80% djokovich hate group. So yes, he's playing Djokovich right now. So Craig Rosenberg: [01:03:15] Uh, that's intriguing. I know Djokovich. Matt Amundson: you know Craig Rosenberg: gonna go watch this. Yeah, he's a [01:03:20] good buddy. I'm gonna text him. Hold on a sec. Craig Rosenberg: Alright, I'll Kathy Macchi: and Serena. He and Serena. I know, it's Matt Amundson: [01:03:25] we go. Craig Rosenberg: We'll do Kathy Macchi: It was a pleasure. Thanks guys. Take. Craig Rosenberg: Alright guys, talk soon, [01:03:30] right later. Matt Amundson: Wait to. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Transaction, [01:03:35] Craig, and I really appreciate the fact that you've listened all the way to the end. What are you actually doing [01:03:40] here? For show notes and other episodes, please visit us@thetransactionpod.com, like and [01:03:45] subscribe on Spotify, apple Podcast or any other place you get your podcast from.[01:03:50] Either you have walked away from [01:03:55] your podcast device. Or this is playing somewhere in the background. Someone in your [01:04:00] house would really like for you to shut this off [01:04:05] [01:04:10] now.