¶ Welcome and intro
Hello and welcome to the 10, 000 things. My name is Sam Ellis. I'm Joe Loh.
And I'm Ali Catramados.
¶ Influence on Children: Personal Experiences
Today on the show, what do we want to pass on to our children? This topic came up because the other week I gave a copy of The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, or Tolle as they say everywhere else in the world, to my daughter. And to my surprise, she started reading it. And I was like, oh my god, my 14 year old daughter is reading a book that I gave her and getting something out of it.
And I was like, it made me think, like, what's my priorities, if, if, if I am going to have some influence, and up until that point I figured I was just not, what's, you know, what's my influence? My father had handed me a copy of On the Road at about 15, 16 when I was in my first deep depression. that really influenced me a lot. So. And then, yeah, just more broadly, like, what do we want to pass on to our, our children?
I don't know, like, you know, in their, in their lives, in, I guess, by the time we die, but mostly, I guess, by the time they're 21. You know, as a framing of the, of the topic. yeah, I don't know, over to you guys, you're both parents,
¶ Power of Now, Books and Reading
so.
We're all just about past the, show me the child at seven, all that, I've got still a couple of years on that, with one, and another's already well past seven, and all, both of you, well past seven, with your, with your kids, so I was, I was thinking about the on the road thing and your dad giving you that, and I wanted to ask more specifically, because you've mentioned this before, what did you, What did you get from that? And what was your father trying to transmit?
depression in six at 16 what's in that book for anyone who picks it up If you can look past the outdated sexism of it. Yeah, is this incredible lust for life? Yes, this incredible sense of adventure this sense that you might have no money But you've got the freedom to walk to the edge of the city and just start hitchhiking and you can get to the other side of a country and you can go on adventures and none of it is dependent on, yeah, material, anything.
It's just a sense of adventure and, and in that book is the most, it's still my favorite book to this day, the most extraordinary, capturing of, What's incredible about human life, I think, and the sense of fun and excitement of being a young man. So I think it helped lift me out of my depression. So yeah.
That's such a gift. That's really a gift. Yeah. That your dad was able to give you.
And, and yeah, it sounds like it was a good choice and do you think that's what he was getting at? With the
Don't know. I mean, maybe it was like me. I handed a copy of The Power of Now to Scarlett. I didn't expect her to read it. Maybe she just handed me this book and thought it might help.
So you were quite convinced she wouldn't pick it up at all?
Yeah, I don't know. Do kids read books? I don't see much sign of it. But yeah, what
¶ Passing on a love of music
about you, Ali?
So, I mean, I'm just trying to think of my son So like Spotify wrapped has recently just, you know, happened and which is like the highlight of our year because, and it's a thing every year we go through and we go through each other's lists and we go through and we talk about like all the different albums and discover new music together and like My boy, you know, from the womb was listening to music, like he's been exposed to music his whole life and, you know, even when he came into the world,
like the first thing he heard was David Bowie. Like that was the, you know, he was, he's always just. So this deep love of music and expression and what it can do for your mood, for your state of mind. I think that's just something that I, yeah, I'm, I can, I can witness the benefits of it, you know, of how it's made him feel like as a direct thing that's come from me. Because I'm trying to think of like, I mean, yeah, we've read similar books.
We've, you know, he's, I mean, he's a voracious reader. So he actually, he reads a lot and You know, I mean, certainly more than I had ever read at that age. So, but yeah, I think like, it would be music, it'd be the thing that I've certainly, I think I can see that I've passed on to him, apart from other, you know, I suppose when I, when you pitched this topic, I was sort of thinking more of like the values and things that we'd,
¶ Values and culture
Yeah, that's why I wanted to broaden it out too. Yeah, because that's, yeah. Like, let's just say, who knows when we're going to die, but let's just say by the time they're 21, like what have we Well. Passed on to
them. It's funny, funny you should put that age on it, because you and I were down a parent by that age, and at that point, whatever legacy they intended to give me, intellectually or culturally or values or whatever, that had already been done.
What I didn't realise was actually that it keeps being transmitted, and that And I don't mean that in any kind of supernatural sense, but that the parents, the dead ones, they still speak to you, uh, you remember things as time goes by that weren't relevant earlier. And they, so things are still being passed down is what I'm saying. And of course my dad's still around and he's still passing things on very much, and I welcome it.
Now with the, you and the books with, it's great to be in the to like you two can actually just ask each other, what did you think about this? And that's great. So what was a book that you really both uh, one that was really productive of a good exchange out of all the What have you recommended? What have you recommended?
Oh, so he, he just goes through phases and like, I mean, yeah, he was He was going through a George Orwell phase, so he read 1984, and then, so he got Notes on Catalonia, and then we just, you know, books that I'd sort of read in my late teens.
Okay, so you'd read Notes on Catalonia, I haven't. Yeah,
yeah, not for a very long time, but I'd read it when I was younger, and so I gave that to him to read, so.
So you two had a chat about the Spanish Civil War one day?
Yeah, so yeah, he's, and like, and he's, he'll bring up, you know, Wikipedia, or he'll bring up like, you know, things that he's been reading in conjunction with it, because he sort of, he's like me, like, we'll be reading something, but we've got to go, and then. Reference and check things as we go. And so it becomes, so you have a bigger picture.
So that sort of dialogue of, you know, of what we do, like, yeah, whether it's all those cultural things, whether it's music or movies or books, like, yeah, it becomes a broader discussion then about what, how did that make us feel or what, what has changed or how is it relevant to us now? And yeah, I love those discussions with him and his insight. And yeah, yeah. Yeah. I agree. Way to really, I think, bring you.
closer to you that's it's the most I feel present when I'm with him like it's because it's You know, so much of the day to day of, you know, work and life and Rundanities.
Yeah. Telling your kids to
do stuff all the time. Yeah. Like, whereas, like, actually when we're just sitting, like I said the other day, like, you know, it's the highlight of our years, the Spotify draft is actually just sitting and having a really in depth discussion about, you know, which grunge songs he was into, which like, you know, like, yeah, cause he's So much of the music influence is like from me and from his dad and from his friends and that sort of melting pot. It's really interesting.
Okay. And of course the lyrical profundity of treat me like a,
That which he was his number eight song. And I'm like, wow, if that, if I haven't like rubbed off on him, What's that?
So
the Kim Petras was my number one played song, treat me like a slut. The song
that Joe was tutting and moral panicking about on the, uh, on the group.
And my son's been listening to it. So. But then, like, yeah, Nine Inch Nails would have been, you know, cause that would have been mine when I was that age. That's right. Yeah, and it's the same for him. And that, I'm pretty sure, that popped up on his list too. Like, you know, Nine Inch Nails popped
up. No one in our generation thinks that Trent Reznor's a bad influence on
the youth, do you? I think I wanna fuck you like an animal is a much better thing to say than treat me like a slut. Oh my
God, they're both, they're both awesome statements that need to be in the right context between the right people.
Anyway, we're way off track. I mean,
Sam, do you feel like, they're both gateways into a world of pleasure and profundity.
¶ What are values anyway. Not a simple thing
Sam, do
you feel like you're consciously trying to influence and shape your children? Yeah. I feel like you are much more conscious. I'm just, I guess I feel like I just observe them. and do some guiding, but basically I just watch them unfold. Whereas I think just from hearing you talk about your parenting, you sound very conscious and focused on certain, you know, modeling certain things and things around gender being a construct and stuff that I have not done at all.
I mean, but so I feel like you're consciously trying to mold your children. Okay. I mean, they're much younger. How old are they?
Okay, five and nine. I would have to tell us, I'd have to tell a bit of a long winded narrative about actually how my view of all this has changed quite a lot. so for example, let's attack it from the point of view of the question of values. All right. And this is one that comes up. It's a favorite hobby horse of mine, actually. People treat it like a simple thing. Empathy. Empathy is good, right? Values. Values are good, right? I think most people, no offense.
They've not been forced to examine it in the way I have, because professionally, like, in teaching, we're constant, there are debates about values, and there's a lot of pressure from the media, from parents, and from all over, politics. What values should we be transmitting, blah, blah, blah. Or people will say, um, you know, I sent my kids to this expensive school, you know, because values. And it's often incredibly vague. What, what values exactly? Do public schools not have values?
That's something that really gets my back up. I think public schools do have values. Democratic, inclusive. Multicultural, etc. Law of the
jungle. Uh, that too. Yeah, that's what I learned at public school. Now of
course, independent schools, law of the jungle also applies.
¶ What we try for vs what we get. Being yourself around your baby
Yeah. In a different way. Different type of jungle though. Yeah. Now, so, so I think that this idea of values is very seductive and I think very simplistic for most people. Now, I'm not, I don't want to do anyone a disservice or discredit. I think most people actually do, when they stop and reflect, they will realize. That they actually do have a conflicted set of values and that it's not a straightforward matter what they want to pass on to their kids.
And of course we often find ourselves trying to transmit one value only to realize that we're not living by it properly. Yeah, do as I say, don't do as I do. Yeah, exactly. And kids don't do what you say, they do what they see. So if you keep that in mind.
What we're, how we're really transmitting values is just through how we live our lives and how we, I would say all three of us, we've changed in how we live our lives and that was revealed in a recent episode for Ali and Joe's been through huge changes, even just in the last two years even, right? So the things that your kids will be picking up from that will have changed in that time.
Also. I think early on I really overthought it when the, when they were babies, like I found myself quite stiff and buttoned up around babies, my babies, and found it hard to be natural and be myself and kind of like how I've felt in the studio when the red light turns on and okay, it's time to sing or kind of,
I totally, I really resonate with that. It's interesting, like, when I fell pregnant, and I was quite young and my son's father was very young when we found out I was pregnant and it's, I mean, mercifully, we have always been on the same page. Like, so co parenting with him has been really, really, like, I can count on one hand the amount of times we've ever disagreed about parenting. We're really very, very similarly minded.
And I remember really vividly a discussion around, Our own experience growing up and what we wanted for our baby and how it was really in stark contrast to what we'd both experienced and sort of, and really being very deliberate in, okay, well, we don't want to do this. So we don't, so it was a really conscious thing of like, Oh, like, yeah, the, my parents, you know, quick to temper and quick to yell and similarly with his.
You know, parents and, or, you know, anger and violence was very much a part of that experience. And so we were so
also his father, yeah,
very much so. And so we both had those sort of volatile childhoods that we just did not want that experience for our boy. And so we very much, it was such a conscious thing of like, and catching ourselves, you know, like, Do as I say, not as I do. And you, you have, when it's something you've observed and you've, it's so natural to be quick to temper or to fly off the handle.
Like, cause that was my experience growing up and actually catching myself and going, no, I need to really, that's not how we're doing it. We're going to be patient. We're going to be calm. We're going to be quiet. We're going to be, we are going to be a safe. You know, a soft landing for him. That is all, that is what we wanted.
And it was such a conscious thing we worked on from the beginning and massively, like I said, we've always been on the same page and I have enormous respect for him as a father. He's been a brilliant father. And so, it's been a really, I think those sorts of things. And, and then watching like our son grow up and, you know, the age that he is now and how. Different.
I mean, like there are similarities, you know, with me and with his father, but also the difference in just in behaviors and things that he and his self confidence that neither his father or I had. And I think that is a result of the way we've. If there's anything else I want to tell
you in this episode Be sure to turn
¶ The Struggles of Parenting and Personal Growth
it up! I'm in Whampara I don't have
a believable idea where my auditory analogy right is
It is really horrible that I lost this for theatre You can watch it at accuracyacademy. tv mmm sung Bob let your heights shoot out That
is so good Woah, no! It's just what I would be concerned about. Of course. Oh yeah,
absolutely. Like what was
good? What was good about having being yelled at and belted as a kid? Probably nothing except that maybe toughened you up a little bit, right? Yes. It didn't happen to me. I didn't get really hit
as a kid. What doesn't kill you makes you weaker sometimes.
Yeah, I don't know. And maybe the world that he goes into isn't going to be a scary place. I have
no idea. I mean, he's certainly experienced, I would say, yeah, things at school that yeah, are horrible or, you know, other kids saying shit. Things and things that he would never have, you know, experienced in the home and like, you know, people being really awful or having, you know, saying terrible things. And yeah, he's come home and we've talked about it, but the way he's been able to handle himself, I think what we've tried to foster is a strong sense of self-confidence. Yeah. So that.
He's confident enough and learned, felt comfortable enough to be able to speak his mind in the home, which was never something I was able to do, or his father was able to do. So that in the real world, that's actually translated to him being able to stand up not just for himself, but for his friends. And he is very quick to step in and say
something. Teenagers have a strong sense of justice generally, as, as kids do.
But it's the confidence to be able to say, actually do something, whereas like I would have probably hung back and been like, you know, or just not say anything. Whereas I think he's actually far more vocal than his father and I ever were. Well,
I think that's right. I think kids and teens in general suffer greatly when there is that gap between their sense of justice and their feeling of agency about being able to do anything about it.
Um, yeah, that's the thing. I think that sense of agency and knowing like, and this is something in stark contrast to my, my. Parents is that he's always, I think he's always had a sense of his. Voice is just as important as mom and dad's in the family. It always was. It was
But we joked about the other week how they sent you to a fancy girls private school and they told you that your voice was important. We joked about We all had a laugh about that because The teenage's voice is not actually that important in society. Agreed. Yeah, but Unless you're Greta Thunberg and then And You know, people have a meltdown about it.
And people say virtuous things like the, the conservatives and the liberals alike are happy to say, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kids, you know, kids should speak up on important issues. And then the second they do, you don't get it. Shut up.
Yeah. I don't know. Like, I feel like.
But yeah, but you've done that. So you can see the irony that you were told that as a teenager, but you don't have irony that your son has full say in, you know, things even though he's a minor. But I was
told that like in the school sense, but there was really still very strict boundaries of when and where that voice could be used or not. This is
just it, right? Yeah. You, your voice is important, now save it till you leave this place, I think is the message a lot of the time.
Yeah, it was like, yeah, not to speak out of turn in class, or out of turn against your parents or anything like that,
whereas Oh, and don't be, don't be putting anything in the feedback box for the school to consider doing
differently. So, yeah. Whereas he certainly would feel comfortable Pulling me up on something that he doesn't agree with and same with his father and like, and yeah, so not take that sort of as a personal affront, but just as another person of equal, like I said, there was, there's no like, Oh, you have to listen to me just because I'm your parent.
Yeah. Appeal to authority. Yeah. Which is a difficult one because we can't live without authority and we can't just base it on authority. Yeah.
Yeah. It's a balance. Like, you know, yeah. Like it's like. Yeah. Trust my judgment because I'm your mother, because I might've experienced something. I might have a bit of insight and knowledge in, you know, when it comes to this versus just like do it because I've told you to do it without any sort of, you know, we've always tried to offer an explanation or yeah, or reason behind what we've said.
I mean, in terms of not going through, not wanting your kids to go through what you went through, I achieved that. We achieved that by breaking up. Uh, well, eight years ago, yeah, which eventually the kids were like six and two, which broke up, which paved the way for you to, well, unlike me, they didn't live in a house with tension, intrigue, fighting. And all their time with me as the single dad is the super chill, laissez faire, I'm not consciously trying to mold those kids.
And not lecturing
them about left wing politics.
If it's what you do, not what you say, then what I do is look at my phone and watch sport. And when I look at my 14 year old, what she does is look at her phone and do her makeup. So you're
on the same page. Great.
Well, I have an exact mirror of myself looking back at me. I'm on my side, you know, past the phone in each direction, right? And so do I want that? It might be really fucking bad. I mean, I think the social media, the data's in on what social media does to teenage
girls. It's really bad. Also, Joe, you're a big one for individual responsibility in your, you know, small C conservative role occasionally, or occasionally a reactionary role, but like, don't forget. Don't give yourself all the credit or all the blame for anything and I mean what
I even the most like strict parents who You know would be like we would monitor like, you know screen time and all that sort of stuff Yeah, that would still be and that is absolutely a battle that every single parent is having in the view in the world What
I'm saying is I'm not having the battle because my experience is I'm integrated with my iPhone so that I would get an implant I would get an implant into my brain that was Google Maps. I would get an implant into my brain that was Black Mirror stuff, yeah. No, I would. I'd get Google Maps and Spotify implanted. Because basically, say if I'm ever driving a vehicle, those things are running and I'm getting music and I know where I'm going. Music I love and I know where I'm going.
So I'm completely integrated with my iPhone, plus then I'm reading books, articles, Instagram, whatever. So my experience was the year that Scarlett was born, when I got my first iPhone, I thought this was cool. I didn't realise I was going to become basically a cyborg, but I have, right? So then I can either hide that from my children and say it's bad. It's very bad. I'm doing it, but it's very bad, but I'm not going to stop doing it. Or, and what I've actually done is just let it slide.
Or I'm,
I'm, or I've got a terrible drinking habit, but I'm going to tell you not
to do drugs. Well the other thing that they haven't seen in the last eight years is me drinking or taking drugs. Great. That's awesome. And in my house, I saw that every single night of my life and then became an alcoholic. So it's, you know, I think you've done all right. Well, there's pros and cons. Exactly. The phone stuff. I wish they looked over and I was, uh, reading a book, a paper book. I might be reading a book on my phone. It's probably unlikely, but I might be.
I kind of wish they looked over. In a way, because, I mean, it's a bit of a joke, but in that small key C conservative way, I kind of wish they looked over and I was sitting in an armchair with a pipe reading a huge newspaper. Which is what
you used to do, kind of.
Kind of? Yeah. Like, I still see the patriarchal role as that, in a sense, and if I'm
there Isn't it curious what a passive image it is? It's very
passive, but it's also, for a patriarchal image,
it's so passive. The mother is always doing, and the father is doing nothing.
The
woman is the man of action, and the man is a Passive consumer, but that's
kind of how bizarre it's kind of like that, but without the giant newspaper and the, and the armchair and the pipe, it's kind of like that, but I'm sitting on the couch with my phone. It's really,
I mean, I really, I feel the guilt there too and stuff, but like we all, we, I think we're all guilty of it. And like,
I mean, the difference with that fifties father though, is that he's unapproachable and will tell them to shush. Yeah. I'm not like that at all. I'm completely wide open if they want to come and climb up on me or they want to. Ask me a question or, well, if they want to engage, I will engage. Well, the phone's not a wall
then. That's good. Yeah. That's good.
No, it's just
It's whether they do then come to you. I think that's And if they do, then it's not a, it's,
it's not a
¶ The Influence of Social Media and Screen Time
problem. In terms of what I want to pass on to them, there's lots of things, but the thing that I 100 percent will pass on to them is to stare at a screen most of the time. I will, I've already passed that on, you know, like Ruby the 10 year old wants her first phone. She's already got an iPad. Yeah, it's happening, you know, so, but, but that is a culture wide worldwide phenomenon that's just galloping away and we're just going to have to see what the wash up is. It can't be stopped now. Hmm.
well, I mean, there's all sorts of things that are actually being done, um, in and outside of industry and, you know, there are popular movements to tackle it. But yeah, so we can't, so that's, that's right. So we're realizing what all the illusions and hidden reefs are here in this topic. And one of the illusions is it's up to us entirely. And one of the illusions is, um, that it's a, there's a simple relationship between our intention and what actually gets transmitted.
And so to take it and taking the example of. Yeah. I'm on my phone too much. This is bad. Uh, you, you don't do it. And at least you're not a hypocrite with that, right? Because let's say with the best intentions, you did really consciously limit your phone use around your kids, which is something I'm working on. Yeah.
That's what, I mean, we just have boundaries around, just don't have it at the dinner table or like, you know, we're having a discussion. Don't, you know, don't look at your phone while we're
talking to each other. Well, that
sort of thing, things like that. So I don't Yeah, those sorts of, but yeah, and that's where I'm trying to model that and not pull my phone out. Well, yeah. And, and so, and he's, yeah, really good like that. So I mean, yeah.
You have to admit your phone is a lot more interesting than your only child, though. So, that's the illusion is the phone is always more interesting than whatever's in front of us, even our beloved children. I agree. I agree in it. It's an illusion. It's an illusion, but it's, it's very pervasive. And then the other, the real sneaky one is I can have both. I can have my beautiful daughters in front of me and be engaging with them, but also checking Instagram. We kind of can't
really have both. Well, this is what I was trying to point us to just now with my remarks, that what I'm trying to get at is like, it's the dialectic. So you, you know, you think you're landing here, this is what actually happens. And then that produces a synthesis of the two things. And so if we adopt a hypocritical stance as parents in the effort to, okay, I know I'm flawed, but here's what you should live by. What we actually transmit is hypocrisy.
Then, so we've got another option, which is accept. How we are, to a degree, and invoke the good enough parent, Winnicott, uh, that's really important. Try to be real with our kids, you know, so that's, that's another option or we can engage in subterfuge and only do our bad things when they're not looking. Yeah. Yeah. Which they always see through. That's exactly right. All parents do that
though. You just wait till the kids have gone to bed and that's when you put on the things you want to watch. That's when you watch Real Housewives. Yeah. And you eat all the snacks. Yeah. That's right. And I don't
do any of that. I think I'm a completely Joe lives
lives like an open book, he does. I do, I think I
do. Yeah, I like that a lot. I mean, I don't,
you know. I think the honesty approach is. Is, it's the way to go. I think it's
the, the, the, the book's been too open in that they've met four girlfriends in eight years and in the end Mm-Hmm. In the, in the final analysis. None of the, that never needed to happen. No. But the Okay. For example, that's probably, it's probably my biggest regret. Okay. Interesting. A single dad is just to go too soon on the meet the girlfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, just 'cause I've made that, I mean, it feels like the kind of stuff that's gonna come up in therapy later. Mm-Hmm. like.
You know, it feels, it has that tone about it of like, well, we did meet all these girlfriends.
What about Byron Bay person? Did they meet her? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, look, on the other hand, again, it's the dialectic. You think what was transmitted was, oh boy, look at loose old dad with his string of girlfriends. But also you gotta, what, what actually So, you've got a one dimensional idea of what was transmitted there. I'm not saying it because
it's immoral, I think it's because it's
confusing. Confusing, sure. That's it. No, no, I get that. But I think the other thing that was transmitted, though, was that you had a degree of control over that situation, and maybe some of it, okay, you brought them in too soon, okay? On the other hand, you ended all of those relationships, and you modelled an example, I would
not say And there was no fighting in front of the kids with any
of those partners. And you modelled a good example, a good enough Viable example of a person making a better decision. And I think that, that example of mistake, better decision is much more powerful than I must avoid errors as a parent and show what perfection looks
like, because that is a deadly, deadly trap. It would have been pretty buttoned down to have a complete bright line between anyone I dated and my kids, even though I dated them for, say, six months, to say you can never meet. There's a pressure that's created of like, well, why can't I meet your kids? Well, so the
artificiality on both sides. So yeah, that's right. So, and also they might express at some point, wait a minute, are you trying to conceal something here? So you just have to negotiate it the whole way through. There's
no rules. Anyway, so that's the stuff that we're transmitting, whether we want to or not. I don't know what you're transmitting. It sounds like you're trying to limit your phone use and stuff, but you also have, like I said, quite a conscious, some very conscious ideas about trying to transmit something that's not, say, heteronormative or whatever, right?
Well, I'll start with where it all began. So with the first baby, and I said to all the, you know, extended family and grandparents and stuff, okay, I just have two things that I want to, lay down. I tried to lay down something. And what, so I've got two very, two things that are very important to me. One, can we please keep them away from sugar for as long as possible? Like refined sugar. And can we not gender them any more than society and consumption is going to do?
Like, we don't need to add to that. It's going to come in hot and strong, no matter what. So it, you know, you go to K Mart or, you know, Big W or whatever, and you walk the toy aisles. It is, it's apartheid South Africa, boy stuff over here, girl stuff over here. It's outrageous. And they pick that up. They know what's what. We've had a hundred years of modern advertising since Freud's nephew invented it, basically.
And we've got a very well established science of influence and market segmentation, audience segmentation, and so on, and they get segmented, they get diced and sliced. In two seconds, by those forces, and the only thing parents can really do there, apart from, you know, try and keep them out of Big W, is We don't need to add to that by validating those signals. We, we don't need to go, here, here's a gun for the boy and here's a Barbie for the girl.
Like, sorry, I know Barbie's a hot property right now, but I think we've been conned to a slight degree by some of that. It's, that particular property is not the only problem. Lego does it. everyone's doing it. And guess what? The first toy company or children's IP that doesn't play the gender game. is going to lose, and they're going to lose market over it. These kids want to be marketed to according to gender for the most part.
So, if, let's say, you know, Disney decided, oh, well, yeah, we're going to like, go gender neutral with all our IP from now on, it wouldn't work commercially. And as much as the right are freaking out about the culture industry, uh, destabilizing heteronormativity, bugger off. Heteronormativity is alive and well.
It is going strong. Gender reveal parties only started happening in the last 10 years, as far as I can tell, with pink and blue balloons and shit. Yeah.
Where do they come from? Gender is being reified more. Gender's fine. Yeah, gender is going
strong. Gender's not going anywhere, and whatever you tried to do in that regard would have had close to zero influence.
Uh, no. No, it's like, cause we did, it was quite similar with, with our boy in that, like, yeah, it wasn't, We had only a couple of rules and one was no hitting, like, like, no parent, like, no grandparent giving them a whack, like, that's just not happening. Like both great, both sets of grandparents tried to, and we would both shut down very quickly that that was not okay. And we were not doing that.
And the other one was around toys are toys and there's no, he can play with whatever he wants with. The girl
should play with guns too. I
do believe that. And like, and he has always gravitated towards dress ups and make believe and you know, and, and Barbies and things like that. It's fun. It's fun. And I remember when he was like, Three, and the, you know, he's just starting to really talk and he's got up on Santa's knee because, you know, what do you want for Christmas? And he asked for a Barbie camper van and a blonde wig. They'll like, they'll be just, and so, and I remember my parents, like my dad being quite at the time.
Affronted. Yeah. Just like, why? You know, why would you buy him that? And I was like, well, every other kid, you know, who's obviously parents are, you know, able to afford to buy, you know, their kids. presents, you know, the kid who asked for Lego is going to get Lego. The kid who wants a bike is going to get a bike. And why can't he have a wig? Cause he wants to dress up like that. This doesn't matter. Like, you know, it's a toy, toys, toys, toys. And you know, that was a huge thing.
Clothes, clothes, clothes that clothes. And, you know, he always gravitated towards those sorts of things and to bright cut, like, you know, and it wasn't because yeah, it was in any sort of gendered thing. It's just, that's the things he enjoyed playing with. And so.
My, I mean, my parents have definitely come around, but that took a really long time and they were much better with the, the second lot with the, my nephews, you know, in like, you know, that they'll buy them dolls and things like that because, you know, kids like to play with all sorts of things. It's, you know, it's the kids, right? Yeah. Um,
Oh, I played with dolls too. It
was also, what is the value that you're trying to pass on to your children?
They don't have to be limited or restricted to playing only with Lego because you're a boy or you only get to play with toy cars because you're a boy. Or you're only allowed to play with Barbies if you're a girl. Like I very much grew up in a house where it was. Barbies and dolls and, you know, girly things, having a sister and no boys around. So, and I was not that kind of kid. I very much gravitated towards, I was a bit of a tomboy or whatever.
And so I, you know, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to play with dinosaurs and, you know, and space thing. That was my thing. I was space and dinosaurs. That was the stuff I wanted to, you know, and would talk at kids, you know, about. But yeah, I was not so much a Barbie kid. And then, you know, my son, like, you know. I mean, and I, and I feel terrible for thinking this, but I remember when I was pregnant, I was like, Oh my God, yes, someone is going to play Lego with me and all these things.
He was never really into Lego as much as he was into Barbies. He just really loved. Yeah. Cause. And, and I mean, but at the same time I was like, well, I'm not going to deny him, the toys he wants to play with. Like he always, yeah. From a really young age, he'd always had Barbies and toys like that because that's as soon as he could ask for those things, that's what he asked for. So yeah, I think that's really. Like you said, they're going to be marketed to, from a really young age.
And I think we were, we were lucky in that we were quite protective of that to, to a point, as long as, you know, we could. And then, you know, obviously it's at school and kinder. Those sorts of things, yeah. That's right,
I forgot to say, yeah, sugar, screens and advertising, limit those as much as possible in the early years and it will pay off hugely, like, it's going to creep in anyway. So what's
next then Sam, you've done that to the best of your ability, now the youngest one's five, you've got two years left to shape. Then you've shaped the other one as best as you can to seven. Mm hmm. We've done
it. Mm hmm. Well, well, let's say that I'm the thing the larger thing I'm pointing to with all these examples of you know, sugar and Gendering and all of this.
¶ The Importance of Freedom in Parenting
It's not really about those things in particular what it's about It's about freedom in a meaningful sense like not just individual freedom, but actually Putting in place The intellectual and physical substrata you need to actually have something resembling meaningful freedom. So the assault of advertising, the effect of sugar on behaviour and so on, and gendering. To me, all of that is counter to freedom. And people will say, oh, but they love it. Okay, but there's actually a compulsion here.
And where there's compulsion, there's a lack of freedom.
¶ Avoiding Addiction Pathways in Parenting
So I think one of the big things that was driving my parenting was trying to avoid addiction pathways, basically. So I think that's, you know, for you, you wanted to avoid the violence and things like that. Totally fair. And it sounds like that effort was very successful.
It remains to be seen, you know, how successful my efforts to, at the very least, avoid Cultivating addiction pathways within the kids, if I could help it, and there's a lot of great science on this, lots of screen and lots of sugar early on, helps build those addiction pathways later. Now, the addiction pathways are there, though, anyway, so you can't just have a, you can't just keep the environment sanitary, right?
¶ Transition from Control to Moderation
What you, this prohibition First phase, that led eventually into a more realistic assessment of, well, these influences are going to be there. Now I have to help them to navigate it and moderate sort of use. Yeah, I have to help them with moderation. Am I in a position to help them with moderation? Oh, what do I need to learn about moderation? So this is what I really want to say. I actually went from going, I'm going to control the environment and then I'm going to transmit this.
Now, I've given up. On that second one, I still think it's worth trying to control the environment to a degree. But what I now, I'm on my focus 90% of the time, is trying to be in the moment with them and to negotiate the things as they arise and then just listen and respond. And now look, actually, I don't think at any point I said, here, sit down and listen to this music. I've actually never done
¶ Influence of Parental Values on Children
that. My left wing environmental politics and gender politics have come in just, but fairly organically. I haven't lectured or laid it out, given them a manifesto to live by, but I have tried to actually more and more over time be led by their interests and so whatever they get into, I get into it as well and learn about it and see the value in it and then just try to sort of maximize. The good stuff that's coming out of Pokemon or coming out of, dolls, you know, or whatever.
And so the thing I'm really trying to transmit is, people working together to help each other through this difficult and fascinating journey. That's, that's really the value that I'm trying to transmit. I don't actually have universal, long lasting, permanent answers that I can give them. Do I? No. We'd never
say it. But like, yeah, no, I think that's, it's very similar. And like, I remember my son's father saying
¶ The Importance of Apologizing and Kindness
that there, and I
say sorry a lot. Forgetting things wrong. And I say, here's what I got wrong and here's why. And here's what I'm going to try and do better next time. So yeah. Yeah. And
I say learning to apologize in front of your kid. That's a huge, that was a huge thing. And yeah, I do it all the time. Yeah. Like I, yeah, I do too. And like, it's never something I heard growing up, but my son's father, I remember him saying that like, there are enough. Pricks and assholes in the world. we don't wanna be putting Yeah. Like another one out there. That was like our biggest goal was Oh yeah. We just didn't want to raise an asshole as a child. Oh man. And so that, so important.
Like that was and yeah, for their sake. For God's sake, yeah. For, yeah. And like
¶ Raising a Kind and Sociable Child
everyone else. And I'm enormously proud of him and like, and my kid is. You know, and every parents, you know, yeah, like, you know, my child's amazing. And I love, you know, they say this and that or whatever, but like I, it is, it has been constantly reinforced. Like, Oh you, his mom, like, you know, you know, he came up to me, you know, my little preppy and was helped him, you know, the other day, you know, get to class or whatever.
And like, he's always been that kid that's always stepped in to help. And I think like, that's the thing I'm most proud of. That's what you want to see. Yeah. I remember this one time. and he came up to me and he had this like box of like biscuits and there was a sticker on the top and it said free and I was like what the, what is this? And like he's like the lady at the bakery gave me to them I was like Like, what? Like, what do you, why on earth would she give you this box of biscuits? Anyway.
What sorcery is this? Yeah. So I walked past the bakery and I was like, did you give these to him? And she was like, Oh yeah, he comes in here every morning before school and has a chat to me. And he's always so polite. And she goes, I had these leftover biscuits. And so I just thought I'll give them to him. Like that is my kid. Like he's, he's that nice, kind, sociable, lovely little kid. And so I think that, yeah.
I just didn't ever, yeah, like, you know, and that's not to say he can't be an arsehole or can't be a prick, you know, all teenagers, yeah, I want him to be able to bite back or to say stuff or like, you know, to pull people up. But for the most part, he is such a jet, like a kind kid. And that was his dad and I, that was such a huge thing for us is that we wanted to put another kind person out there because, and it's not all about him all the time. And I think there's this misconception.
Particularly too, with only children being Oh, for sure. Selfish or, yeah. You know that they're not, you know, community minded or Well, you've done your best to, yeah. Like, we've really tried to be that. It's, it's not just about you all the time. Like, you know, whether it was in the family dynamic that was, you are one of three, or if you're in the big family, like, you know, it's what, you're one of 10 or you're in the class, you're one of 25, your whole life shouldn't
be determined just by that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's
just, you know, you, you are a part of, yeah. Mm-Hmm. I
feel like kindness is the universal value that most people talk about the most now. Yeah, I think that's a huge thing in the culture, focus on
hashtag kindness. And again, I don't think kindness is a simple matter. I'll
say. And it's hard to be kind sometimes. Like sometimes you don't want to be kind or it doesn't feel natural
to be kind. And sometimes what we think is kindness is actually unhelpful and
vice versa. So, you know, it's. learning the nuance around that. What's a better value
than kindness? I don't
think there is a, if we have to pick a single bloody word, yeah, then that one's fine. Probably the best one, isn't it? Look, I
think any, I think any, simplest sense without complicating it. I'm all
about dialectic. Any single word philosophy is faulty at its core. It just doesn't matter. What does dialectic mean? That everything exists in relation to other things. So what does kindness mean? Well, what are we defining it against? Capitalism. Well, sure. Okay. But when we say You know, sometimes you see, be kind and it's delivered through gritted teeth, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah,
there's no point in just pretending to be kind or giving the face of being kind. You have to actually be
kind. Actual kindness. There's a slogan or real kindness or I
don't know. Wanted and appreciated like this, you know, you could be trying to be kind to somebody who it's absolutely not appropriate to be kind in that
moment. See, my 14 year old has an edge to her, which I recognize as my own. And I like that edge, but a 10 year old would have no idea how to do anything
other than be kind. So you want to critique kindness also? That's good. That's a healthy instinct. Not
really. I mean, I was still strongly, and I've been talking to her about, you know, difficult politics with, you know, people at her school. I've emphasized that you need to be kind to people like, even if they're not kind to you, you, like as hard as that is, or if you can't be kind back to them, go and find someone else and be kind to them, but don't turn it into a flame war,
you know, resentment, avoid resentments. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
there's that one again. But I, look, I thought about this topic all week. Oh good. And, which I know you don't do Sam, but, I think about
everything all the time,
um, but
¶ The Role of Curiosity in Parenting
no, you're right. And in terms of what I most want to pass on to my kids, it is to be very curious about the nature of consciousness and be very curious about what this is you're experiencing and don't let it be defined for you. As you are an individual. with a certain identity, having a certain finite experience. I know, we're in complete agreement on that.
Stay open to the openness of consciousness and start to learn how open it is and realize That you're not, things are not what they first seem, and you need to explore that, and re explore that, and have experiences with that. That's what I most want to pass on to my children, which is why I gave Scarlet the power of now, because it encapsulates it very well. About coming into the present moment as a spiritual practice, and then having a profound experience of consciousness.
As a sort of God consciousness, I guess, which is open, which is what everyone's having. It's just, most people never recognize it. Well, that's what
my mother was trying to transmit to me as well, pretty much exactly. The, the value of compassion and kindness and the, uh, cultivate God consciousness. That's what she was trying to get across to me. And that all religions were on the same page in most respects. And that everybody walks a hard road and, you know, kindness and God is how we're going to get through this. And yeah, you and her would have gotten along famously, I'm sure. And well now, but not 10 years ago. Maybe
not. Oh God, no. Not when I was a hardline
atheist. No. Yeah. No, but you guys would have had a great time talking about pantheism and syncretism and meditation and, you know, mantra and prayer and all of that. And you know, she played That's
the stuff, the consciousness expansion stuff is the stuff I wish I'd found earlier and a spiritual life I wish I'd found much, much earlier in my life.
¶ The Impact of Parenting on Children's Future
Uh, you know, the last episode I was kind of berating Ali to try and get her to at least open the door just a little bit to all of this, you know, but you can't, and I can't do it with my children either, like they might both be hardline atheists. I've got good
news, Joe, I've detected, I've not had to. Get my oldest to like, you know, probably open the doors of perception, Aldous Huxley, and you know, critique conceptual reality and connect with the divine and the one, he, he just does it. Like he comes out with, yeah, he just comes out with stuff and I'm like, oh yeah, you get it. I don't really need to tell you anything. Like, he asks the kind of questions, I'm like, no, no, you've You've got this.
The only time I have to, maybe it was like, Oh, okay. Some of these questions are heavy. Like you don't need to hold them heavily. Like, you know, it's okay. These questions are, they're no, they're actually not heavier than any other question. Like what to have for dinner. Now that's a heavy question. You know, if the universe would have existed, if, you know what, what's for dinner.
Now that's a hard question, you know, but all these questions are one, is what I'm saying, but you're asking the right ones. You know,
¶ The Power of Consciousness and Spirituality
good kid. and certainly that, and it points back to that thing I was trying to say earlier about like avoiding the simplistic and, living with others in connection and living in connection to concepts as all just connections rather than absolute things that stand on their own. And so for me, the point of all that is the practice of meaningful freedom. And you're looking for that in a spiritual direction, which is.
Not a bad, uh, instinct and me, I'm kind of maybe looking at it a little bit more materialistically, but not entirely. Like I'm really interested in phenomenology and
psychology. So hang on, you want your children to experience maximum freedom in their lifetimes? I
mean, meaningful freedom. I mean, to live the kind of lives where they're making conscious choices based on reflection on experience and not just being driven by desires and fears constantly.
So you assume that they have
free will? Uh, it is an axiomatic, I'm putting the axiom in there, but I'm really avoiding the issue to a degree. Yeah. As much as, look, I've got a couple of very brilliant friends, including you that I have destroyed free will in front of me many times, but I stubbornly
persist with the illusion of it. It's another one of those useful illusions, I think. I agree. It's hard to run any other operating system, so even though it's not real, you may as well just act as if you have choices, you know. And I certainly experience things as if I'm making decisions. Whether I could ever have made a different decision, I'll never know.
Well, correct, because what we're both pointing to here is a functional common morality. And like, we can't, I don't understand how you're supposed to operate.
That's why I don't think kindness is actually that complicated, because generally we know the difference between right and wrong.
That's one thing, okay, but also So, the
morality, I would
say, is I have to make sure the conscience
develops properly. The morality is, for most of us, is pretty hardwired and, you know, we
Yes, yes. No, but the sense of right and wrong will very much come from the things that you experience and observe and what you're told is right and wrong.
For teenagers, we'll have a stronger sense of it than we will. yeah, yes, true. Why they often speak with such clarity on things like climate change. Yes. Like, well, this is wrong.
Yes. But again, but they're shaped and guided by the discourse around them as well. Cause you have
like, yeah, somebody who's grown up, say in like a far right. Christian, you know, white nationalist kind of experience. They will feel
very strongly that homosexuality is bad. Yeah, exactly. It will invoke that same sense of justice. So the
way that Adam says right and wrong aligns with your values?
Yeah, very similar. I mean, we do have disagreements.
Yeah, you guys are probably right. Yeah. Maybe it's not hard wired. Maybe it's just conditioned
into them. I think the chemical pathways are the biological substrate, but then the inputs. The
inputs are different. Yeah. Is Adam quite woke?
Yes, like me. Yeah. Hell woke. Yes. Yeah. But, but he's also Are you a self identifier as woke? Yeah.
But like I think he's also
He might be the only person in the world. Okay. No, but
like as in
like The original meaning of woke Joe was exactly the thing you're talking about, being aware that reality's not simple and
you know. And I just, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I think he's, but I think he's got a bit more of a nuanced take than I'd say your average
woke. Yeah. He's not a libtard. Is
politics essentially identity politics?
No, no, I would say he's more of a socialist. Yeah, he's
a socialist. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So he
working class is the identity you need. Yeah. Yeah.
So no, I think, yeah, he's proletariat. He's very, very much. Yeah. And very well read on it and, and interested in it.
Oh yeah. They're going to kick some shit off
those guys. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel really hopeful like I, and yeah. And it's, and like I said, I think it comes from a considered place. I don't think he's just parroting news that he's heard from either his parents or from what he's heard at school. I think he's very much. The kind of kid who will want to, you know, it has been also raised. I think we have tried to, to question things and to, you know, to do your own research and come to your own conclusion.
And I feel like Critical kindness. There we go. Critical kindness. Yeah, very much. Like I think he's been, and feels confident enough, you know, when he, yeah, there have been things that he's like, Oh, I mean, I don't know how I feel about that or like, yeah. And you know, or is this right? Or not just. For the sake of it, but for the genuine, what is the right, you know, way to move forward with this. Yeah. Yeah.
That's one way I try to help is to like, try and get the kids, cause this is the thing I've been learning only myself more recently, try and stop and notice like what's happening inside me right now. Like, um, um, oh, oh, okay. Okay. Oh, how does that feel right now? Like, are you experiencing confusion or doubt? Like, okay, what's that like? What are some of the things you're reaching for? Like, what are your first thoughts? Okay, do you have any others?
All right, now let's sort through those and, you know, developing those sort of habits. That's what, that's what I'm getting at with the freedom thing, that we're not just slaves to our trauma or our conditioning or psychosis or neurosis
and like Yeah, I mean, what's coming to me if I had to sum it up pithily would be, be, stay curious and stay kind. Yeah, that's great, yeah, that works. You know The
curious, I think, is actually really important. Like, to question and to be curious and to be involved. I think that's, that's really important.
I was curious, except for On matters of spirituality, I think that's where I was close. I had a closed door now, like all atheists, otherwise you're an agnostic. If you've closed the door, then you're an atheist. I agree with that. And you're no longer curious. And when you have, when you start having spiritual experiences, it's going to
be a shock. Now, but can I ask a more probing question about that, though? Were you not curious? You've just said you weren't curious about it. Now, is that the kind of curiosity that comes from an atheist? A complete absence of any understanding that there's something interesting there or a conscious decision. There's nothing interesting
there. I don't look, I would encourage my kids to take LSD, not now, but when they're older,
25,
28, 35,
40,
40, because that was probably the most profound thing I learned under the age of 21 was what I saw on LSD. And I guess that was the part of
Neurological development doesn't really stop at any point, but there's a lot of development still going on up
14 take LSD, I'm saying
Up to 28, brain development. Profound.
If you're going to be curious, there is no Better eight hours you can spend than a large dose of LSD.
But no, but there's so many ways to get there.
Like, I'll take that to my grade. It's fascinating. I don't think you should do it all
the time. Okay, but what can we do now with 10 year olds, for example, or 14 year olds?
Well, get them to, you know, read a book instead of bloody looking at their
iPad. For sure, read a book, but also just natural, just good old Socratic dialogue, natural philosophy. You know, get the glass of water, put a stick in it. Hey kids, what do you notice? Oh. The stick is bent. What the hell's going on there? So that's the observation that Descartes makes at the beginning of Meditations on First Philosophy. That all sounds really hard to understand. It's not. It's a very simple book.
At the end of the day, he just says, look, notice that the senses have misled you on this occasion. Does this happen? In other things can we trust the senses ultimately what is the basis of knowledge?
You're a teacher I'm not
Anyone can put a stick in a glass of water and say
what's going on? I just don't engage with my kids that way or the way that Ali engages with her kid, but Something I'm getting something right.
I agree Yeah, we're playing my natural game and my natural game is kind of like the father on the armchair But that is a very If you take away the patriarchal baggage of that, that's a very stable thing in two girls lives, is this steady, present, father figure, but I don't get down so much on their level, and I never have, I've never, I've never done all those things you read about in the parenting books that make for great parenting, but I've ended up with kids Yeah, who really love me and I
really love them and we have a great relationship and they're great kids. I mean, I've been reading their reports this week. They're objectively pretty great kids and they're well socialized and And their mom has done probably about 80 percent of that. So, so that's the other things for the last eight years I've actually been in and even before that because I was the main breadwinner I've always only had to play the bit part role.
Mm hmm But the shock when Scarlet started reading that book was ah, I'm not I matter. I actually matter to these children. I am influencing them. And that's a delusion that I walk around with a lot, which is that I kind of almost don't exist. Oh, sure. Right? So that's, now I'm just like, it was a real slap in the face. Like, fuck, okay. And then it was exciting because it's like, oh, maybe I can find some other books and hand them. And then, like you said, talk about the ideas.
I started talking to Scarlett about the ideas in The Power of Now and And, and she said, well, I've always said dad, everything happens for a reason. I'm like, you never said that to me before. And I was like, I had to go away and think about that.
So what were her first takeaways from the, like, what was like, do you remember anything she said early on in reading it?
No, she's, I mean, she's still just starting out reading it, but she, it
just struck a chord with her immediately. It's the kind of thing
you either, you're either interested or you're not. If you're interested, then you're on a certain track. Agreed. Because that book is pretty all encompassing, it basically says If you get what I'm saying, then the rest of your life is basically an illusion. All that really matters is your present moment experience. And that present moment experience is an incredibly profound one. Everything else, your entire future and your entire past, is a complete illusion and you need to drop it.
Like radically, just completely drop it. Oh
man, that's what my wife's father was Very, very keen to transmit to, you know, his children and, you know, they all turned out resolutely pragmatic and not especially interested, uh, Oh, my beloved father in law who passed away three years ago, three years ago, actually, you know, shortly.
And you know, he, cause he, he had a very difficult, you know, a set of difficult experiences after, you know, leaving his home country and moving to Australia and, you know, experiencing a loss of status and, you know, but showed him. I think a marvellous role model of like just trying things and just going, I'm going to start this business.
I'm going to do this and a lot of, a lot of cool or interesting things that he tried and, you know, sure, not all of them succeeded, but, and then he discovered Buddhism, meditation in the, in the eighties, as a lot of people did. And, uh, you know, worked through, You know, things that were holding him back, his personal development, and then really was keen to pass that on to the kids. Cause this is the other thing, when does this process end? So in his, it doesn't.
So in his, the last 10 years of his life, he was, I would say working harder than ever, but in a more subtle way to like influence and like bring something positive from like all that wisdom you've gained after, you know, it's like, he was constantly saying that to me over, over lunch or dinner. Oh Sam, there is no You know, there is no past. You know that, don't you? And I'm like, no, no, that's, that's not a fact. That's a useful way of looking at things though.
And he's like, no, no, no, it's true. There is no past. Like, there is no future. He was just hammering away at me. This is
something that only humans have ever invented that aren't, that are two complete illusions. And, and I think he was just And so much anxiety and
pain. He was driven by compassion. He really, yes. You can just drop it all. That's what he was Sky's off the past and the future. Exactly. He was looking at me and seeing the guilt and the pain and the shame, and he was responding with compassion. And he was like, here's what you need to know. And the monkey, there's a monkey in your brain and it's torturing you. Just tell the monkey to be quiet. There's no past, there's no
future. I was like, wow. That the power of now gets in and, and meditation, hopefully in for Scarlet is the balm that she needs if her mental health does. Take knocks, and she does struggle with things and anxiety. Yes, you need protective. Does come together and depression does come for her. The answer is going to be to come into the present moment. Yes, you know, and appreciate what's right in front of you. That's the only answer to come out of depression and anxiety.
Oh, 100%. No, I agree completely. And that was what one of the things that really helped me was, I mean, I was terrified at the present moment, basically did not want to be there and As I gradually began to recover, and who knows which, you know, which thing comes first, or it all happens at the same time, but gradually going, I actually can tolerate the present. Not only that, there are possibilities in the present that don't exist in the past or the future. Yeah. All of them. All of them.
There are no possibilities elsewhere. And that was cool. And dad tried to set me up with that as well when I was a kid. And I think that, eventually it did get through at a time when it was needed. So. You know, we can try and prepare them as best we can, I suppose. Hopefully. But
it's interesting, isn't
¶ The Influence of Books and Reading
it? Yeah. Like, that's how Western way is. A book is what's going to transmit. You still have the written word, you know.
I'm much more about the dialogue, the dialectic, the bouncing it back and
forth. Well, wait till your kids can read an adult book though, you might be quite excited.
But that's what all those old Greek books are, they're all dialogues. Like, written down,
but like, now is actually a dialogue. Yeah, there you go. There's someone asking questions all
the way through. Yeah. Look, I won't dismiss books. I don't want to be Sam's famous anti book stance. Um, I think what I'm more pointing at is that like a linear text can really work like here, sit down, read the power of now. I, that's a good move for sure. But I think where the power really lies is batting it back and forth and like turning it into something. I
would say that the power lies in practice. It agreed. Yeah. And it is. So for me, so still the Buddhist practices, which will get me most into the present moment. Like most meditators, I know it's just real struggle to do them with any discipline and rigor. Like the things that come and go and then you do them and it's always so good that afterwards, just like the gym, you're like, Oh, I got to do that more often, you know, but you don't, you just don't.
So yeah, I think we can probably wrap it up quite productively.
And we shout out to my dad, his wise friend, Bill Hicks, who passed away a few years ago. He always used to say, at the end of a wise chat between the two of them, Yep, but does it change what you do in the morning?
Your dad was friends with Bill Hicks? No, different Bill Hicks. Different Bill Hicks, but also American?
He was basically a similar guy in a few ways, yeah. Right. Yeah, he was a tripper, and a truth teller, and a crazy man. Does it change what you're doing in the morning? Does it
change what you do in the morning? I've been told that the way you wake up, the state you wake up in emotionally, is your true spiritual condition. Oh God. Whoa. Mine is terrible.
Mine's a worry. I've
steadily improved. Let's hope that's not true though. Oh God. Let's just cut that out.
No, no, leave it in. We need to keep it real for everyone else.
¶ The Role of Practice and Present Moment in Parenting
Keep it real for the kids, you know, but like, my consciousness started off bad today and it's steadily improved. I want to say that.
So, um. That's every day for me, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. I think we should wrap it up. That's right. Does everyone want to find a word on what they want to pass on to their children, Ali? No, I think
we've really, no, I'm just.
Sounds like you've already perfected your child.
My child is
perfect now. Ali gets four points. He's
like, what are you going to pass on? He's cooked.
He's done. I'm pretty much done. Like, I'm just hanging out till he's 18. No, I just, I feel, I don't know. I, it's one of the few things in my life that I, I'm genuinely proud of that I haven't fucked up, because I fucked up just about everything else, but I don't feel like I fucked him up yet, or at least not enough that he's, you know, that
it's a worry. Sam said you pass at seven, at seven years old you're done. Oh, no, no, no, I,
that was my original view. But then like, and I think there's a lot in it, but what I eventually came to was like, oh, it's never too late to make adjustments. Like we can't give up here on the present.
No, and I think, yeah, even watching Don't you
find you're just watching them emerge though, rather than sculpting them? Oh God, that's
what I'm saying.
Yeah, yeah, it is. It's
both.
Like they come with so much pre programmed personality, it's like
fucking hell. It's just more just nudging, a little nudging in the right direction if things feel a little bit like Yeah. Yeah.
Nudging, holding, loosening, boundaries sometimes, hard
boundaries sometimes. I don't know, I mean, I don't know your five year old Sam, but the couple of times she's come out here I was like, oh, no one's telling that kid what to do. Oh, no, no, you're right. She's kind of like the wild kid. No, no, she's
incredibly strong willed, yes, yes, I, I admire it greatly and it defeats me occasionally, often, every day.
No, I think there's, there's something for willful children, I think it's actually a wonderful quality. I'm
not going to crush it out of her, but I am going to try and, um,
shift you, yeah. It's trying to channel it into a way that's actually really productive and good and, yeah. Useful and helpful rather, because it can be like, yeah, your greatest asset, but also yeah.
Totally. Yeah. If I, if I tried to meet her unstoppable force with an immovable object, it's just going to produce neurosis. Like, I don't want to do that. It's like, you have to, you're going to have to find your way through this willfulness yourself and learn to take a suggestion from someone else from time to time. And you'll figure that out eventually. I got it by 40, so. You know, there's hope for her. Yeah. Well, uh, thanks everyone. Thank you.
This has been another one of the 10, 000
things. Ooh. Okay. Now that's an outro. Bye.
Bye.