Feelpinions

There's reality, which is loving awareness,

unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.

And then there are the 10, 000 things.

Hello and welcome to the 10, 000 things. My name is Sam Ellis. I'm Joe Lowe. And I'm Ali

Kachamatos. Today on the show, Feelpinions. Definition. Definition. What about Ali?

might

have... Feel opinion? I feel like it's, well, it's a, it's an opinion I think deeply rooted in an emotional response. There's an emotional... Behind the opinion. So it's not necessarily based in fact.

Hmm. It's what? 95% of the internet.

Yeah, for sure.

It's 95% of what we all say all the time. I don't think we're all fact checking ourselves most of the time. It's just fact checkings for other people. Yeah. It's the ABC.

That's right. Well, no fact checkings for people you don't like, you know, but like, yeah, that's right. So what we're saying is not because we need to separate. We need to separate the kind of ordinary subjectivity from like the normal, the normal sense of bias like that we ascribe to people for like, Oh, well that person would say that cause they're rich or they would say that cause they're poor or they would say that cause they're this uh, this identity, but like deeper than

that.

Well, I'm not, I'm not, I don't, I'm going to hedge my bets.

Right. Cause what I would like is more facts. Sure. No, no, no. Like facts are great. Imagine if say, I enjoy facts. Imagine Vladimir Putin had a few more facts and a few less opinions, he might not have invaded Ukraine. For example, same with say, the US and Afghanistan, like facts are good things, I'm a fan of facts.

They are, but I think, so in DBT, and we've talked about this before, the dialectical behavioural therapy, and they have the concept of the wise mind, and all decisions come back to the wise mind, which is It's a Venn diagram and one part is emotion and one part is rational. And so that would be your facts, logic, the things that are real and then how you feel about it is also just as important. It's actually real. It's actually

really important. It's an objective fact itself though. Yeah. Because that's a state that the A body is experiencing.

Yeah. And so. Yeah. The wise mind is way to proceed mindfully through decisions is somewhere in the middle where there's overlap between until we are taking into account how you feel about something just as much as the facts and that's probably the right decision. It can't all be emotional the time it can't be all rational all the time.

media, that's, that's the app for today, everyone, Ali's

cross smash. That's an A plus from a psychologist from that one. I remember that. But

we're all, we're not all getting treatment for borderline personality disorder. No,

no, no, that's true. But because

that is a treatment for that, isn't it? It's used for lots of different things. I thought it was almost always. for borderline. No, no. I mean, it's, it's used for that too. It's gold standard treatment for borderline. For borderline,

but it's, but it's used for lots of different,

yeah. Dialectical behavioral therapy. Sorry. I'm the one doing tangents.

No, no, no. You're right. No, but I think DBT is exactly what's... It's

repackaged cognitive behavioral therapy, really.

is. Yeah. Um, that's right. But I think maybe there's a... I think the idea of getting at the wisdom of the subject's judgments is part of therapy, right?

those two poles. Have you ever thought that about yourself, Sam, that you're a dumbass who doesn't know it all. Absolutely. But

what's the flip side of being a know it

all? Why? But why is that? Why would there be a flip side? Because, no,

because I've pretty much said that from the start of this show that all extremes are mutually constitutive, right? So you've got, if you've got like a Basically, MAGA people need the Libtards and vice versa, right? They create each other. They're

complementing each other. Ah, yes. Ram Dass said, cops create hippies and hippies create cops, hippies create cops. Got it in one. I don't get it. I, I, I can say what Ram Dass said and I can dig that that was cool, but I don't quite get it.

What it's saying, what it's saying is. The hippies are kicking back against the established order and cops are reactionary at best and fascist at worst and they, uh, automatically perceive any threat to just the established order as automatically bad. They create each other. They create each other to a degree. Obviously the cops pre exist hippies, but the, the problem of.

only private property owner on this podcast, so That's right. Me and Ellie have got like nothing to

steal. That's right. That's right. When I call the cops, they come. She always worries. She's like, Oh, you know, you off. You always leave. Cause I'm always leaving the house unlocked and things like that. And she's like, I'm like, they're literally going to steal nothing. I have nothing. Like, please take

my stuff. I said, Oh bro. Like if the, when the junkie comes in your front window, you say. There's where the valuables are off you go. Yeah,

I'd be dark on the laptop and that'd be about it I really

have nothing that they could take that I would be angry about. No, just like

that guy needed it more than me Yeah, I'll help him carry it out. Yeah, pretty

fucking Zen Capitalist pig dog.

I've been robbed twice like home robbery and um the only and the first time they stole my grandmother's jewelry and so that, so for, so part of me was really heartbroken about that because she died only about 12 months before. So I was still quite, it was, it was, it was fresh and I was really upset about that. And then the second time we got robbed. It was Christmas Eve and they'd actually stolen all the presents under the Christmas tree.

Oh my God. It was horrible. A drug could possibly

be worth that. Yeah. So I mean, no matter how bad of a situation I was in and how annoyed that like, yeah, Christmas presents had been stolen, I was not the person who was resorting to stealing. Stealing someone's Christmas presents under their tree. Like I feel for that person, really. That

is brutal.

Yeah. All right. So back to the topic. Feel opinions. What

I feel like, and of course the cops were no use in those circumstances, were they? Not before, not during

or after. But see Sam, the way you present things right, and maybe it's because you're autistic. Is that yes, you know facts. Yes. So you can explain what a police officer is, right? Look, I don't should, I don't should talk for what you just said. Most people probably wouldn't agree with. No, that's true. Let's just say, let's just limit it to Australia. Most people in Australia wouldn't agree. that cops are, okay, I'll tell you why the difference on a negative thing, right?

and stuff, right?

Look, I just said it was an app. I think that's part of it, but I do think also speaking with a sense of authority in an authoritative tone can also convey something in the same sort of way, in the way you are feeling like it's a fact, when it might not be based in that.

But as a straight white guy, I talk about things in authoritative tones all the time. Yeah. So,

and

exactly. Yes, that's true.

Now, I have no, no, almost nothing. I've very few facts, which is why I come across as self obsessed because I've worked out in the last few years to just stick to what I do know, which is sort of just me. Yeah. And the rest is unknown. Yeah.

But, but the confidence. Even the self is unknowable to a degree, you know, so it's

like. Oh yeah. But like the confidence is still there because of my conditioning, right? That's true. But Sam, on the other hand, knows a lot of stuff. Yes. Like a lot of information has gone in at some point before he stopped reading books and it's in, and it's in there. And it very

reliably comes out as, as facts and, and actual statistics and numbers and the ability to recall what. Information in real, in such

detail that it's, yeah.

So I only Philpinions, and doing yourself a disservice, because you've probably got an excellent recall of cricket facts,

for example. Yeah, like I'm, but Philpinions and cricket go together really well, and what you create, hopefully, is fun group chat content. That's true. Right? And that's what I'll do, and that's what I'll be doing tonight. Yeah. Right? But, but... I think it's very problematic that so much of, what am I really talking about? I guess I'm talking about how shit Twitter is. Well, I

feel opinion, I feel opinion is that all Collingwood supporters have bad teeth. And then I guess you might hold that opinion in either a joking manner or like my mother in law, God bless her. Love her. I'm like, yeah, it's just a fun thing we say, isn't it? Granny. And she's like, no, they

really are awful. I have a colleague that's supported by the way.

But also like it's for some, for some sport is often a great way to illuminate any kind of idea in sociology. Well, not any, but a lot. So for example, the idea that your team is the best in the world, no matter what. But here's a more interesting one. Other people's teams cheat, mine doesn't, right? So that's like, that's a classic feel opinion of the sports supporter and it's putting the cart before the horse.

it's completely rational. Yeah. In terms of actually running the world. Not in terms of like what I do with my spare time. which is really, it's, yeah.

sometimes he's even right.

It's, I don't know, but it soothes my brain. As opposed to like trying to expose myself to Twitter or something where it's just like, what the fuck?

But do you, do you feel

like, I was going to say like all decisions, like if you had people running the show who are making. Decisions purely based on fact without any emotion at all. That's a really...

For running things, yes. For like building, say, an aircraft or whatever. Do we want

detached ASD people like me running everything? You really don't. You, you, you want...

But you get... Imagine how good the housing outcomes would be

really good if Sam was running stuff. Actually, I should be in charge. But I think... Again, it comes back, you really need to have, we are not without emotion, we are not without feelings, you cannot, you know, it might be the, the, you know, based on facts, the right decision, but there's going to be a lot of people that will feel unhappy still about that outcome. And that needs to be considered when making the decision.

People have different feelings about wind turbines. Like they feel like they give them strange headaches when they don't. Or they feel like they're a blight on the landscape. Whereas I think they look... Cool. However, Joe, there should be completely fucking irrelevant because we really need the fucking wind turbines. Right? So in my perfect logical world, we're building the wind turbines regardless of what anyone feels about them. You know?

But it turns out there's a rationalist. This is, this is really going to blow your mind. Turns out there's a rationalist basis to feeling funny about wind turbines. So send in the anthropologists Someone is adjacent to a property where wind turbines get built. And how it works is the landowner is given money. There's some sort of contract. they're compensated for the installation in the first place, and then they receive like an annual payment after that.

obviously. Yeah. So what I wanted to say about Phil Pinons is that I don't feel like I have access to almost any facts. So I've paid these two bloggers quite a bit of money sometimes, depending on how busy I am in the film industry. Like 30 bucks a month is a lot, but, but their stock in

trade, Joe is look at us, look at how detached we are. Look at how unmotivated by feelings we are. You can trust what we're saying because we are having feeling. But

also, we'll read a lot. This is a masculinist dialectic as well. I don't have feelings, but what they're gonna say is, we'll read a lot, and we'll write blogs, but we will write them from the point of view of a couple of things. We want problems to be solved, and we think some problems can be solved. But we don't think people should get upset about drilling. Whereas the Guardian will tell me the world is ending. What?

Well, yeah, but one of those saying, no opinion, you know, don't get upset about drilling. Biden did the rational

thing. They're both pro drilling, they're both pro drilling, they're both pro drilling in Alaska, but then the way my mind works is, I just think, I don't understand why exactly we need some more oil. But if they're both telling me we need some more oil, just in the short term, even though they're both write a lot about climate change and there's hugely concerned about it. The siren call of

the reasonable

man. Right? If they say we need some more oil to help make sure... Reasonable men will

lead us to our deaths. And they've done it

before and they'll do it again. And the lower petrol prices will make the Democrats much more likely to get elected the next presidential election. Oh God,

this is such tortured logic, honestly.

Like then And I've paid my 30, then what happens to me? And I'm not joking, is their opinions become my opinions. Of course. Sorry, my feel opinions. Exactly. But they're good. They're high quality Sam.

I agree. They're better than other people's feel opinions.

I can ask you, and I've done an experiment. Sorry, Ali, I'll jump to you in a sec. I've done an experiment with Sam in the last couple of weeks where I've asked for like a thread on something and you get like. Something that you, someone else would pay 15 for on, say, the war in Ukraine, right? Like, cause Sam can work at that level too. I can't. I'm, I'm confused. I'm just trying to

absorb. I'll set up a sub stack next week, Joe.

You can subscribe to it. You won't because you fucking lack the executive function or whatever the thing is that gets you around to getting, doing the thing. Plus you've got all the Washington fold. That's true. But, uh, but, but like chat GPT or whatever, I can just prompt you and you'll go, boom, because you've got all these, all this information at hand.

Because you've, it's a, it's an investment. It's that sort of, not a sunk cost fallacy, but in the sense that you've invested, yeah, the inverse of that kind of, yeah, you've, you've, you've spent money. On this person and you feel good about it and you're like, okay, I feel good about giving this month, this person, my money to, to break down all this information for me and give it to me in a really digestible way.

And what it does, I'd be a sucker if I paid for like worthless drivel.

Yeah. And so, yeah. And so, and it's also your field opinions, what it is and you, and you feel looking closely at your values and you know, as sort of, you know, Center left, you know, sort of man who values climate, you know, believes climate change is real. These are the practical solutions. You're paying somebody who's sort of reinforcing those values. Yeah. So that's why you're... And

they're both policy nerds too, so the articles will be quite long. They'll have a lot of graphs. They'll have a lot of numbers.

You'll place more value and weight

on the things they're saying. What to is away from my field opinions and towards some facts. I've only got so much bandwidth.

Ali's got your number here. Like, the thing you're doing is highly rational, but it's irrational, like at the same time. And, and like, Yeah,

I sense that it's, it's, I'm too much of a sponge. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's got all the right forms

of validation. But it's also, yeah. Being able to sort of take a step back and cause, cause that's the thing, you know, like, you know, you never want to meet your heroes or someone's going to disappoint you. You don't want to pay the money and think, Oh, I don't agree with this. I feel like I've wasted my time and my money. Investing in this. Oh yeah, see

I don't need

to agree. There is a sunk cost. Yeah. And there's a

validation. Are you guys paying anyone for news? Mm.

For

news? Um,

no. Well, do you

pay for any of the information that you get?

Well, yeah. Paying by being subject to ads, I guess, in that sense. No, you don't. You don't. I'm not having

Tony's side. Oh no, I do. I subscribe to, um, uh, New York Times and New York Opinion New Yorker. Yeah. I think

that's really good. I think that's good to have paid for some of the information that you're reading. Yes. With with, with your actual dollars.

Yes. Oh, no, no. I tend to agree with that. Um, But I often absorb him from, I often, my sources are in a sense, the person was already paid to produce that, if you see

what I mean. Yeah, but if you never pay... Then, then journalism. No, but

I don't consume journalism, Joe. I consume primary sources and secondary analysis,

but I, I do appreciate

that. It's, it's a boring sidetrack. But, but, but yeah. No, but like I decided for some reason in my own head that I could, I was gonna trust information. I paid for more than the information that was advertised

to me. No, I think it's good to pay for it. I do, I do agree with

that. It's, it's not even trusting it more, it's like I enjoy it more. It's like a little Sunday morning ritual. Yeah. And I go to, you know, like to the New Yorker. It's get the opinion piece. It's a long read. It's I take pleasure in it. It's something I feel like I've invested in for myself. So I'm more likely to read.

Whereas if pirated games don't feel as fun. It's true.

It's like a, it's like the book. It's like Poojy

News. Yeah. The New Yorker opinion. That's the feeling I get from one of these long sub stack articles. Yeah. They've banked up on my phone because I was unwell and unable to read. So now 30 to get through. No, you don't need to get through them. No, I don't. I fucking read every single word and I usually read them within about five minutes of them coming out. But that's just how I am. Wow.

Yeah. You're the dream

subscriber. Yeah, I let them accumulate for a few days and then I have to set some time

aside. Like if, if, if it drops into my email inbox. And I go straight to the substaff, uh, and I read it straight away. Do me a

favor, send this episode to No Opinion and, and Matty Glacius, like, yeah.

Yeah, sure. I mean, to me, like they live on another planet, right?

You'd be surprised how vain they are. Just like tag them on social media with the episode. I'm like, we talk about you in this.

But so, so, so the, the, the relevance, the relevance of paying them or paying the economist was expensive. It was like 50 bucks a month. Oh yeah. That's dear. And the, the reason again, is I'm trying to get away from poor quality. I'm trying to get away from feel opinions. No, no, no. I'm a hundred percent. That is very correct. The quality of The Age or The Guardian is so bad now. Yeah,

fantastic.

It got so bad and I was like, well, The

Age is the channel nine newspaper and The Guardian is, let's just say it's not left or right. It's its own beast.

It's apocalyptic. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, yeah.

It's, you just want to feel bad about yourself for the day. It's just, yeah. It's having

a panic attack about everything. And they're not a hundred percent wrong. Yeah. Terrible thing to say. Awful slur. I apologize. Sorry, say that again. MAGA people would call the Guardian libtards and, and, but the truth is the Guardian is not quite as unhinged as MAGA media, but

like, it's not like, I mean, like, and there's often like there'll be something really good and worthwhile in there. It's not to say that like, I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but there is

a lot of, they're victims of the clickbait. Yeah, the clickbait problem

is why I was trying to, why I was happy to spend 50 of my Australian dollars to give to The Economist, which worked for a couple of years because at least then I was getting quality journalism that wasn't clickbait. But then, you know, well, no, they're on the internet too. So what they started doing was putting like, uh, updates of like little bits of information, which then those little bits of information stopped being thorough articles.

Because the thing is these paid outlets, the thing they really suffer from is that they're constantly getting scooped by. People who call themselves journalists and who don't bother with, I don't have any scruples about fact checking the rest of it. And they know they can only get scooped so much before their paid subscribers decide Guys, I'm sick of you not doing any rumour mongering, so I'm going to go and get my rumour mongering right. I'm So they're caught between

the dilemma of... So that happened to The Economist, so then I'm like, I don't really want that as part of the product. See,

stop consuming journalism, primary sources and everything else can just

fuck off. Then the Ukraine war started and The Economist just went full propaganda mode and I was like... Oh, because it had always been a center right publication, right? Of course. But without a war, it just seemed fairly reasonable, problem solving, organization. The moment there was a war, it's like, this pro Zelensky, like, I wouldn't trust Zelensky as far as I could throw him. And suddenly there's all this pro Zelensky propaganda, and it's like, what the fuck's happened to the economists?

thing that's, I've stayed, I've stayed off Telegram. I've been very tempted to download it a hundred times, but I've decided not to. And it's, it would absolutely rabbit hole me so fast. Mm-hmm. . And what I'm gonna do instead is what I've always done, I consume the secondary analysis. So, and primary, primary sources and secondary analysis. So what I mean by that is, I don't mean firsthand reportage.

Yeah. The majority of them are useless. Like, unless it's like a long form, like a, like a, an investigative piece that there's, you know, it's been months in the works. It's their whole job for six months. Yeah. And I, I, I, I live for those articles and like, they, they're brilliant. And that's the last sort of, I suppose, like really. Good quality journalism that's still out there.

journalism. And there's no disincentive not to pass on the rumour. Yeah. There is, but it's tomorrow's problem. Today's problem is pass on

the rumour. Pass on the rumour and get the ad sponsorship and like, you know, and it's just, and yeah, and that's a shame.

It's a shame. Basically publicly funded media is the only answer. And Well, that's what I've

ended up with is I've got the ABC app. Yeah, yeah. But then it's like facts versus Phil opinions. Okay. ABC's

got loads of that in there too. Don't worry. But, but what I'm, what I'm saying is the ABC's got a bit

of crap, but it's the it's, but it's

still, if you want your day to day, 20%

of the crap that the age has, like the age is just about what do you do with all your money in Europe? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like where do your holiday in Europe and what do you do with

all it's,

yeah, I was gonna say like, you know, Family scoops up property, like in, you know, in Thornbury for only 4 million. And then you're like, Oh my God, this is just like a, like a, an ad piece for realestate. com

and it's a funny

article. The age is absolute dog shit. And I finally had to just walk away. You've finally

seen the light. But yeah, but

the anxiety journey through this show, this show has been going for about 12 months. Yeah. My anxiety levels are much lower than they were around the news. Look, I

don't mind these centrist guys, because they're good for your feelings. Which brings us back to Feelpinions, which

is like... Yeah, I like, they slow my brain down. Yeah, I like them for that. Matt Yglesias will have an opinion on the attempted coup in Russia, and he'll write two paragraphs on it, and I'll assume that Matt Yglesias knows a whole bunch of people who are fucking heaps smarter and more well informed than me.

Oh, I dare say he's got some good sources. In the

administration,

probably. But Matt Tybee as well. Look, there's a lot of these... Loose end journalists out there that are sort of largely funded through subscriptions and that they've got a degree of independence. But what you need to keep in mind also is that they become reliant on their subscribers. Yeah, so the subscribers are the proprietor in a sense and the proprietor is also going to distort the editorial policy. So they're going to

continue to write and investigate or Write about things that that

one got opened by everyone. This other one got ignored. Exactly. I'm going

to make content.

Yeah.

end. With both of those bloggers is that they hardly ever write about Ukraine. And I think Ellie said it the other day, like she switched off from it largely. Well,

yeah. You know why? Cause the audience aren't there anymore. Yeah. And

that's what I want to mental health wise.

switch off. So basically. I'm perverse, I guess. So I basically did not consume any of the hot media about the war for 12 months, and now that it's old news, now I'm tuning in because there's actually some proper analysis to be had because we're this

far into it. And I think that's wisdom. Yeah,

but it's also just more interesting to me ultimately. Like, I try to read news and then I get bored because it's not answering the questions I want answered. It's telling me about something that happened today. But like, I guess I've just got just enough historical training and the anthropology as well. I'm like, No, no, no. What happened 10 years ago? What happened in 2014? Why did that invasion happen? Why did Crimea happen? Why did...

questions just go back and back. The question for me is a psychoanalytical question, which is why do I think Putin personally wants to kill me with a nuclear bomb? Oh, that's a great one. Right? So, so... And I think what's happened in the last 12 months is good psychoanalysis, good addiction recovery work has gone in. Yeah. And that's why like, it's not, I'm not saying I don't care about the fate of Ukraine. I'm not saying I don't care about people dying now.

I do. Of course you do. And that's why you can't pay too much attention because it's not good for

you. But it's different thinking that Vladimir Putin knows who you are and wants to kill you with a nuclear bomb. Or

that Vladimir Putin wants to save you from globo homo gender fascists who want to sissify the boys. Because that's what the MAGA people are getting high on, which is like a field opinion as well. Just take a moment. Vladimir is going to give us a masculine, fascist vision of how the world should be and that's why we're supporting him. Everyone's, everyone's high on their

own supply.

the words you need to think about now, forget MAGA.

Right, because you've said it

numerous times in this episode. You need to think about, I've been saying it for 12 months, you need to think about Christian Identity, capital C, capital I, and you need to think about, just, good old fashioned white supremacy, but it will have different names, it will have unfamiliar sounding names, British Israelism, uh, there's a thousand Basically, flavors of fascism that are, have always been alive and well in the subsoil of American life.

What I'm intrigued by from tonight's episode is that you two seem a lot less worried than me about the idea that it's very hard to establish any facts. Yeah. I

think it's

always been difficult. I think that's how we should finish up. Like, is it just, all right. So because what you described is Christian identitarianism. Yeah. Yeah. Let's call it that. Right? So they, they're imagining that future, but I'm the guy who's with the people in Montana who are expecting World War III and the whole world gets blown up. So I'm actually much more unwell than a Christian fascist

when I'm reading the news. It's all the same degree of... No,

but they imagine a future at least. I couldn't imagine if... I remember driving past some infrastructure in the western suburbs of Melbourne and... And seeing that it was going to take years to build these roads, and saying to my therapist, Wow, people in, the government in Victoria is planning to build new roads and stuff, whereas I imagine myself to just not exist in a couple of years.

died when I was, when she was my age currently. Yeah,

like something has... It's made me not, made it impossible for me to imagine a future for the world. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So then my political opinions are... That's why I can't read the Guardian, because the Guardian agrees with that. You should definitely stay

away from the Guardian. I

do stay away. It's fine. I can't agree more. But, but the, but the insight is that there's something in me that is not well, but, but I feel like facts are important. No, you're not wrong. Facts are an important antidote to that. Yes, I see what you very dangerous, they might make you swerve into an oncoming truck. Yeah. Right? Yes. But you two seem to not need the facts

as much. I see the issue. No, I think the real issue here is, I think Ali and I both, uh, love facts. Yeah, yeah. As much

as you do. Very much. Like, I. Yeah. Like I, and I'm constantly questioning my, my emotional state or those behaviors that are born out of that. I, it's very, I'm very much like facts, but I think it's,

I think what it is is there's a distrust of feelings on your side of things, Joe. That's the real issue here. If you ask me. And so I think experience has taught you. Uh, and you know, therapy will bear this out that you can't afford to trust your feelings, you know, and some of them are misplaced feelings to be sure. And some of them though, unfortunately are well placed and, and those are also ones to distrust for it.

Like, like the, the, the, the, as I say, the, the probability of something really horrible happening because Putin decides to, you know, let off the bomb. Right. And is so small, but it's not completely, it's not completely off the table. That's right. So. But the, the, the reality of that would just be so horrifying. It's better not to get bogged down with that small.

But what Which is an urge you have. But what is

Like, I had a really good conversation with a friend, Cameron, who's got a history degree and is following the Ukraine war very closely. And he explained to me why he didn't think Putin would launch a nuclear attack, you know? And he just said, there was 10 years of war in Vietnam, the Americans didn't do it. Nixon woke up in the middle of the night and told him Even Stalin didn't use the bomb and, you know, Stalin was a monster. Yeah, well, Nixon, I've got

a very comforting story for you. Nixon woke up, talking of Phil Pinions, Nixon woke up in the middle of the night more than once He, you know, pills, he was having a lot of pills at that point, pouring sweat, rings up Kissinger, Henry, drop the bomb. And then, and then, you know, Kissinger, well, he's evil incarnate, but he's rational. He's your rational, platonic kind of evil. And he says, he says, consider it done, Mr. President, and puts down the phone.

What I was going to say is that. Actually, I need to talk some of this shit through sometimes. Of course! And the best I can come up with is pay a couple of fairly, highly intelligent, rational seeming people to tell me some information, and occasionally have some chats with some people who are paying attention.

But that's time and money well spent. But most

people I notice... Just aren't that concerned that we could all die in a nuclear apocalypse, even though, uh, the country with the most nuclear weapons just started a massive

war. No, but think about it. It's not rational to invest in something you can't do much about. Yes.

That's, and that's where I'm

crazy. Yes. So the

rational thing to do. Because, because Putin's not going to listen to Joe. Yeah. So that, that, that's where I think you fall down is that you, you, you feel like if you said enough or spoke enough or had the right conversation with the right person, somehow it would have an impact on the decision. It's a lack of surrender. Yeah. And whereas, whereas yes, Sam and I have completely and

everyone else, you know, 99% of people just go,

well, most of us are just like, well, there's literally nothing we can do about it. So my time's up.

My time's up. If it makes you feel better. Right. You, your blind spot is this thing that most, even dodos step over that easy, right? And you've, you're smarter than them and you've managed to just fall into this snare, right? But if it makes you feel any better, everyone's got the, this thing, like everyone's got one of those at least. So all those dodos have some. Other, more asinine trap, honestly, that they fall into,

I've found the best balance I've ever found so far, which is I check the, Douglas Murray said this. Douglas Murray, who is very right wing, is probably the most right wing guy's books I've ever read. Yep, he's a gateway

to Christian identity and a few other things. Watch out for that, Joe. By the way, you're in the demographic. Disempowered middle aged man.

Sure, exactly. Fascism beckons, my friend. But Douglas Murray said, you know what, I'll just check the news for five minutes in the morning. Look,

Douglas Murray's not a fash, but he,

yeah. But, but. He's. Yeah. One thing. Five minutes is what he said. Well, Alain de Botton said, if we were rational, we would check the news on a Sunday and that would be it.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, I think that there is a lot of truth in that, but like I said, I think the even more rational thing is, so if you're

looking for.

No, it is. It's not bad. But podcasts, there's a great podcast called decoding the gurus. They've got an episode about Douglas Murray. Give that a listen. They've got an episode about. Yeah, I've listened

to that. You told me to listen to it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sweet. Yeah, yeah. Keep at it. Novara Media, you can support them for five bucks a month.

Noah Smith and Matt Iglesias are not gurus. They're just nerds. No, no. I

don't think they qualify as gurus. No.

Douglas Murray is, yeah, potentially dangerous. No, he's definitely a guru. Because he's incredibly

intelligent. But give Novara Media five bucks. They do excellent analysis. Anyway, it just happens to be left wing, but they're not scaremongers like the Guardian. Anyway, Ali, what were you going to say? No, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, I've lost that train of thought. Sorry. Damn it. No, I'm sorry. No,

that's okay. All right. Well, I think that's it. Yeah.

yeah, look, I think, can I, I really want to plug like some non centrist journalism that is.

Yeah. Go for it. I'd usually cut out a lot of. When you get specific about other podcasts, they often cut it out of the edit, because I just think people might find it a little bit the same as when you say someone's name, who they probably don't know. Uh, look,

no, no, I, it's more, it's more for you, that like, if, you know, basically. If you want some America perspective that is heterodox, like some of your guys, um, you know, she'll talk to Michael Schellenberger. She'll talk to like all kinds of cranks, Bad Faith Podcast. That's great. she'll talk to centrists as well. And she'll talk to trade unionists and academics on, you know, and all sorts. Yeah, you're big on the Bad Faith Podcast. Yeah, it's fantastic.

know

No, they probably are yeah in fairness, I haven't read a time I haven't read

enough of it. Yeah, you won't read it That's another thing. I'll say about facts versus filth. I've done

to know opinion articles. Oh, yeah one matter glaciers.

Yes recently Generally, what I've noticed is people won't read articles that you share as well And there's there's a giving up on there was a certain phase of the internet where we can't or wanted To know the same stuff, or kid, that were on the same page, or even more simply, that we all just, we all just got the age delivered, or we all read it in our, our cafe, that's all gone.

It's like, it's a constant, like, yeah, that no one else is, you do. You really do. Like it's, it's disheartening. It can be disheartening.

I give up. I, I put things in the phone and go, Oh, I could, who would I send

that? Yeah. I've got so many open tabs and things and I'm like, I'm going to send that to some, and I never do.

I don't know. But like, I think maybe the, you know, I just content myself with the knowledge that like someone out there right now feels exactly the same way I do about this exact thing. And yeah, I

could jump in the comments section, you know, which I never would. Joe, I would tell you what,

if you gave me like here. We'll get some new podcast hosting next month, which by the way, I want to create, I want to create an appeal to the listeners. I want to solicit a handful of subscribers who can pay for help us pay for the hosting. Right. But let's say once we get that hosting in place, you should have your own feed, which is like Joe breaks down. Centrist articles from two bloggers. Trust me. I would listen to that. I would a hundred percent listen.

I can remember reading Michael Schellenberger at work to the point where I got in trouble. Oh yeah. Because for the first time in five years I thought I might not die and all we're on our own might not die from climate change. Yeah. No one had said that to me until he wrote Apocalypse Never. Yeah. And I was like, Oh my God, we might be sort of okay. Like we might. Yes. Humanity might survive. It's

awesome. Where am I going to put all this existential dread then? Because that was your outlet. You'll have

to put it somewhere. It was

like, I got in trouble at work, whereas the average person will just think Michael Schellenberg is complete nutter. He got pretty weird after that book and got obsessed with San Francisco, but I mean,

like nuclear power. Yeah, sure.

But like, at least that was, that was the, that was the moment I stopped being a standard lefty. Yeah. And became something else. Sure. With Schallenberger actually being willing to put a book out called Apocalypse Never with a picture of a polar bear feeding its cub. And he would write facts about how, you know what, polar bear numbers are up. Didn't you read the Tim

Flannery one years ago about, let's go nukes, don't you remember?

But, but, but, Apocalypse Now is not about nuclear power, it's about the fact that climate change... It won't turn out the way you, yeah. It's not going to be the end of the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The literal end of the world. I never said it would be. But you never thought it would be. No, I never did, no. And most, I've got all these friends that are wiser than me, or... That don't have the same fucking black hole inside them, whatever, right?

think just the algorithm throws it out there because there was a need for something. Basically. What we started with was like the extremes are mutually constitutive, right? So, you know, um, well, the example I gave was Marga and, you know, extreme Libs or whatever constituting one another, but like the, the, the amount of, the amount of concern about climate was created by, by denial that had been existing before that. And then that in turn, Created an industry of everyone calm down now.

and if you, if you. If you just think Greta Thunberg is great, then you'd be shocked to hear Joe Rogan take the piss out of her, and despise her, but he becomes the most popular podcast host in the world, so it's like, where even is the mainstream, is the mainstream. Yeah. Greta Thunberg or is the mainstream Joe Rogan? It's both. It seems to be more Joe

Rogan actually. But if he shitcans Greta Thunberg, it really just confirms what a lot of people already thought about him. So, you know, which is another field opinion yet again. But yeah, but

it's, but I lived in a world for most of my adult life where I never would have heard. Yeah.

That. No, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. But go on Ellie. Yeah. No, I was going to say

like, it becomes like your, those feel opinions are just reinforced by the same. Yeah. It's just a, an echo chamber. I think

it's dreadfully droll to express an opinion about climate change via the medium of Greta Thunberg. I mean, that is just Thunberg or whatever that is just so droll to like boil it down to her, which is a hundred percent. let's say the forces of denial were like keen on doing, and it wouldn't necessarily put Joe Rogan in the 100% denial camp. No, it's not. But it's just very droll to go, I'm annoyed by this girl having opinions.

My God. But the point was that I, all I really ever thought was, she's great and thank God someone's telling it like it is. You were on her side. And then somehow I end up in this other part of the internet where Joe Rogan is like, Taking the piss out of her and, and, and yeah, seemingly like not liking her at all. But I would actually like

to shut the fuck up, but actually being a

bully, and I'm not a Joe Rogan fan, I don't listen to Joe Rogan, but

yeah. I listened to him before he turned into what he turned into back when he was just on the pods before his YouTube success. And because YouTube basically said, come over here and be famous. And he did, but like before that he was already doing really well. But let's say when he was back in the days when he was only getting a million downloads, let's say I was in there and like, he was very likable.

So just

listen to academics and just screw these other people. I just don't worry about journalism. That's my advice.

That's pretty solid advice.

And the best kind of academics will acknowledge the feelings they have and that they have a subjectivity and it's not about denying. The fact that you have a human response to these things. It's just about triangulating all that

stuff, isn't it? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, personally I think I'm lucky that I have wise friends. You know? Most people probably

don't. Well, I would count you among my wise friends. Yeah, same. Yeah,

but there's blind spots or obsessions. But we all

have blind spots and vulnerabilities and, yeah.

And also if you want to remember more facts here, I'll leave, I'll leave you with this. If you want to get more facts into you, you know, like more fiber into your diet or whatever, the best way is to. Absorb things through a framework of what you care about and what you, what feels important to you. And feelings will help those facts stick so much more than like a rational sense of this is important. Like that doesn't do it. It's the feelings. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's weird.

Like what I care about is my kid's future. Yeah. And what, and the, but yeah, but the perceived threats to my kid's future as. Impending. Yeah. Within the next five minutes. No. Is Makes you incapable of functioning. Yeah, that's exactly right. And part of my kid's future is whether they have a roof over their heads at my place. And part of that is being able to go to work. And part of being able to go to work is not having panic attacks. And part of not having panic attacks is never reading The

Guardian. Actually, and you know what? These 15 substacks are a good investment. Yeah. If they're doing that. Like I

said, it's a good investment of your time and your money. I think it's valuable. And if it gives you a sense of, you know, peace and calm and understanding of the world as it is right now, it's worth it.

is just a vague sense that maybe we'll muddle through and solve a few of these fucking problems. You know, Glazius once said... There's always been big problems. Yeah. Do you know how soothing I found that? I think that's a good attitude to have. Imagine if you were in the Great Depression, you'd think today was pretty fucking good, you know? You might, yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. It's just that. I just, so yeah, maybe you're glad this is basically my dad. I think there's

always been big problems, and that's a good thing to remember. It's true. Yeah, it is very good. Yeah, yeah. But why is he like your

dad? Well, cause he says that and then I calm down. Oh. Oh, I mean? It's just like that one person who is so smart, your dad's still around, you know, maybe he can say that to you on the phone and you go.

He's a calm, rational friend who's giving you the information like in a really easy, in a way that yeah, is centering and grounding for

you. That, that, that, and that is something we all need and it's perfectly okay to need that. Yes. There you go. And maybe if there was more of that, people would have less feel opinions. There you go. All right. Well, this has been fun. You guys.

It's been good.

See you next week. See ya. See ya. Bye.