Compromise

There's reality, which is loving awareness,

unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.

And then there are the 10, 000 things.

hello and welcome to the 10, 000 Things. My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

And I'm Ali Catramados.

Today on the show, "are we willing to compromise to be in a monogamous relationship?" Ali, you sent us something to the group chat a little while ago. Uh, we thought it was so good, we thought we'd get you to read it out, if that's okay?

Yeah, sure, um, yeah, I just posted this, in the group chat for discussion and, just chatting with one of my girlfriends, if you have the luxury of being single for long enough and realize you not only enjoy your time to yourself but really value the spare time you do have, do you become more selfish or unwilling to compromise and therefore end up alone? Not a bad option, just a different one. We were talking about relationships, and even the most happy ones come with a fuck ton of compromise.

Hmm, I feel like this is very relevant to the late 30s, early 40s, single person. So Sam, you're our token married guy. Uh, so I mean, I think maybe a broader discussion about how to compromise in relationships, given me and Ali are single, could be good today.

I think that's definitely something worth discussing. How to, and whether to, which is part of this, and how much you need to, which is probably the most important question. And figuring out that's going to be different for everybody. But I certainly don't think anyone who's going to be able to escape compromise in this life, um, whether it's with friends or employers, or if you, even if you run your own business, there'll be compromises involved.

Ali, you're talking about girlfriends who've fallen in love with being single, like being alone.

There's definitely that element of it.

Terrifying thought to me as a single guy, that there's women in this city who just really prefer to be on their

own. Yeah, it's not an

unappealing...

Haven't you heard of bros going their own way? Oh God. Yeah, I know a couple of guys who've retired from dating at 40.

Yeah, that's men going their own way. It's not good. It's, I, that's not healthy. I want to refrain from judgment,

but I'm judging. Yeah. All right.

I was going to say like, there's, there's the appealing aspect of it, but what's to go back to what Sam was saying, I think, and I was talking to somebody about this last night, the compromising, I think if, if, if, if you're compromising your values. That's where it's fundamentally going to fall down. If, you know, you can make compromises about things that are, you know, not as important to you or, yeah, you can work around.

Yeah, and sorting out the difference between what my core values are and Whether some of these other things that I thought were core values, they might actually have been neuroses as it turns out. And you know, uh, so unfortunately I'm not going to be able to hand anyone an easy formula here. I think it's going to come, a lot of it's going to come down to, am I actually happy with this particular thing that I think is really important? Like how well is that serving me?

It certainly can be really flexible and again, like this discussion we were having last night about it, it's like, you know, in safe, and we use the example of someone, you know, with a sugar daddy or a sugar mama. In that you may not, like in a, in a, the context where it's an equal partnership, there are certain things you are not willing to compromise on, but, you know, and, and the example I used was like, I don't want to pick up after a man, like, I don't want to pick up, but like,

No one, no man should be expecting that.

No, but. If he's like a billionaire, sure, will I pick up?

Maybe we can talk.

Yeah, I was like, well, maybe I will pick up your dirty underwear off the floor, because you're a billionaire. Really?

What's, what's the

logic there? So you, you, you, that your values can potentially be compromised, because the benefit, outweighs the

compromise. So you'd take cash, like... Money

be some kind of... So the problem is capitalism rather than actually... Yeah, that's what I was about to say. There's a throwback to a lot of women who are just like, I'm exhausted, I don't want to work, I just want the sugar daddy, where's my sugar daddy? I can totally, and the problem is not so much a reverse back to the values of back in the day where women were, you know, kept women. It's as... from that dynamic, they're actually just seeking that because they're exhausted and burnt out.

it's not like it's necessarily a closely held aspiration that like they've arrived at after much thought.

Well, for most women, it is like, yeah, which is

fine. But it might often just be a state of, yeah, I'm, I'm ready to throw my hands up. And just declare work to be a hoax.

And I just want to be taken care of.

Yeah. And I can fully understand wanting to do that for a month or two. I think, I think most, most people would probably be ready to stick their head up. You know, at least pick up a part time job after that length of time, like you've had a little time off, you know, but

how am I going to pick up a part time job if I'm traveling around the world on yachts?

exactly, that's exactly right. But also the other question that was raised there at the end is like, or is it very different now with maybe people living separately, et cetera, et cetera. And certainly that was a thing that was more possible to do 20 or 30 years ago. because the price of housing. And I knew couples that were like living in separate residences and not, you know, grand or large, not even like average size family home per person, cause that's ridiculous. But you had your own

unit or apartment.

You had your own place and that it worked quite well. And I remember the friend of a, sorry, the mother of a friend saying to me years ago, and you know, she seemed middle aged to me then, but she was probably my age and was saying to me, Oh, we were talking about relationships. she ventured an explanation for why she hadn't repartnered. It was in context. She said, yeah, I've met many fine men, and loved one or two of them, but I just, I just found myself unwilling or unable to.

I feel the older I'm getting and the more I date, the more that's becoming very solidified and it would

really... She said that I'm stuck in my ways and I feel like it's going to be hard work and like

maybe 10 years ago it would have been a different situation but now

I'm coming up on eight years without having lived with it. Girlfriend.

Maybe you're unwilling to compromise too.

Well, that's what I was going to say and I think I am. Uh, I want to be able to watch Test Cricket for seven hours, five days in a row. That's not up for negotiation. Yeah. For example, that's just one example. Yeah. I mean, to miss my footy team playing footy to go to the fucking opera. So,

that is a spurious example, if ever there was,

but, what's completely spurious is what Ali's talking about with billionaires and sugar daddies. It's just a way of framing the discussion. No, no, but for her and her friends having real relationship challenges and trying to work out how to build a, you know, a structure that works. This stuff about, I'm billionaire's underwear is a complete distraction. Oh

yeah, like, I mean, it's complete fantasy from, like

an extreme case of, yeah. Why do you say that? Like, I find it depressing that... That women are now saying, oh, I'd rather not work and be a housewife

or have a sugar daddy.

Well, I think what they're And now you want to go, what, back to picking up underwear? It's gross. Like, don't even joke about it.

Well, I personally, I think it's demeaning to both parties, but Joe, I'd be, there's, He wouldn't

respect that guy. He wouldn't respect you. No, but that's not the point. He wouldn't want to date you. He wouldn't want to take you for dinner

if you're picking up his underwear. The problem is capitalism. It's the problem of feeling overworked and being spread too thin and that's, it's merely a symptom of that. It's not that people are desperate to have that sort of power and wealth inequality within a relationship. They're not. No one actually wants that. They just, want a bit of a holiday.

That's right. And that's right. And in distorted times, people will contemplate distorted arrangements.

That's what I'm saying. We need to hold our integrity.

I agree. I agree. But can I say, like, I think that if a person's self worth was not bound up with their job to the degree that it is, then this would be a different conversation. So like.

Exactly. And yeah, you're going to be like, who's picking up. You know, the work around the house, who's picking up the underwear, who's going to cook the dinner, who's even

going to decide what we're having for dinner.

Exactly. And like that, that level of exhaustion I've certainly felt like in living in arrangements where it just. You become resentful and a nag, and I don't want Even small things just turn into huge problems. Yeah, and those, you know, arguing about who hasn't done the dishes, it's the bigger problem of feeling like I'm not feeling like you're pulling your weight. I feel like I have to think about every single decision. Yeah, and

this other person doesn't understand how much pressure I'm under at work, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and those

resentments and I, these are the conditions, and Capitalism, which becomes immediately irrelevant because it's like saying, oh the problem on earth is that we breathe oxygen. It's like, that's not changing. So they're the conditions. And the happy, healthy couples I see actually both have really good careers, busy careers, and like, the ones that I go, wow, you guys are making it work, are busy as fuck with work and they have high level, high stress jobs and they make it work.

Okay, look, if you're both home unemployed around each other all the time, that's going to be an issue too. How many

go to work for both parties have been the same since about the 70s? So none of this is super relevant or new to the 21st century. You're not working any more hours than someone was 30 years ago at all. So, I mean, some of this is just whinging. Like, yeah, alright, you've got to go to work. That doesn't mean you can't make a monogamous relationship

in someone's work. We're still, even though we've, we've progressed from the seventies, like in a lot of ways and, but yes, we are still both, you know, say you've got two people working those very traditional heteronormative gender roles of what is expected around the house still to a certain degree has not progressed.

aren't expected to cook and do

the dishes and look after the kids. There's real studies and evidence that the mental load of running a household still predominantly falls to women. That's just

thinking about it more. That's not doing

it more. No, it is. It is. It's thinking about it and doing it more. Like that is absolutely...

I think the argument about whether men should do the dishes was over a long time ago and men do the dishes.

No. No. Absolutely not.

Where are they

not doing this? Well, certainly, I mean, all I can offer is one worthless, one worthless anecdotal evidence, which is you'll, you'll never catch me lounging around on the weekend. I'm always getting jobs done. And I just, whether that's what's expected of me or not, I don't know, but that's just, I don't feel like if there's things that can be fixed or mended, or there's things that need tidying or cleaning, or. I'm playing with the kids or we're on an outing.

necessarily leave a whole example of someone who's still married and making it

work. I would say you're the exception, but it doesn't say that that's the, I think that's

wrong, but

I don't, I think there's a fair few blokes that have around these

parts. Yeah. Come on. No, absolutely. Melbourne. You think men aren't doing what? Sam's talking about.

They might be doing it, but not to the extent that...

You just don't meet the ones who are doing it because they're all married and they're all like tucked away. But the reason... You're not meeting them on a dating app. No way. They're the ones like me who live on my own and I might leave the dishes for four or five days and no one cares because my kids aren't there. Make sure they're clean when the kids get there. And like, I leave a lot of stuff now to just stay as it is when no one's around.

dishes. Yeah. I think that's the reality of most people who live

of that, that, and, and I'll acknowledge that there's a, there's an area where the labor is still. Um, cause like I'm doing more of the physical, like the grunt work, um, domestically, but there's, there's a lot of life admin that I feel like has increased. And with children, there's just so much paperwork and like on, you know, emails and online stuff to keep track of, and I don't know if that's evenly as evenly divided as it should be.

I, I, I still get sent or called from the school regardless of whether who's weak. Like they, the default is to call mom. That's right. The default is to send the information, information to mom and then for me to distribute it to, my son's. So it's very much that those things

are so It's not just

the school stuff. It tends to triage, like you said, everything. And it's that mental load that is exhausting. It's not like, it's not just having someone proactively go do the dishes. You're like, Oh, can you do the dishes? You're still managing it.

But the male mind approaches the same problem to say. What's the worst that could happen if I tune out some of those school emails?

Yeah, I think that is actually a valid response. And guess what, Joe? A lot of, a lot of... You still

find out about the concert just in time and you get down to it and, you know, if there's a really an emergency, yep, they'll call both parents. If they couldn't get on to the mum, they'll call the dad. And most of the things that

actually... Imagine

if you just... Drop some of that mental load. That's what I'd advise. Most of the,

well, this is, well, this is But you love it. This is what gets us This is the

contradiction. You actually love it because

you're a concerned mum. That's a dead, that's a dead end. But I think where the conversation is more You do. Where the conversation is more productive

It's really not.

Sorry, Sam. No, no, that's all right. No, no, it's, I think that there's I can imagine maybe a holdover from your earlier relationship where maybe there were times when, you know, the mother of your kids cared more about things than you thought was necessary or even desirable.

No, no, that's still the system. Same system Ali was talking about. School rings mum, you know, the emails go to mum. She's carrying the mental load about anything school related. I get

the emails too, and then they get, I get them forwarded to me sometimes. It's mostly

spam. It's mostly just not relevant crap that they send from the school.

Yeah, and so, but also, can I say, like there's a lot of women I've observed in like the school community who will be really on and off with being all over it one month, and then they've had it the next, and I overhear them. Seriously, they were all over it. They were passing on info at one point and now they're standing there at the gate going, I don't even know what's happening anymore.

There's a curriculum day.

Yeah. And what is this? I don't understand. And then it's someone else's job. One person's gone and said, I'll assume responsibility for these things. Someone else has said, I'll go ahead and assume responsibility for these things. And there's not necessarily a lot of communication or clarification going on around that. And there wouldn't necessarily have to be. If both people had a sustainable workload and felt like...

There are things that you might be inherently bring to the relationship that you're better at. Just say you're a better organizer. You're better at doing those things. So those duties are going to fall to you and they're going to be other things that the other person is better at, like remembering the kid's friends names and Pokemon stuff. So it makes sense that you would naturally fall into those things. I think the problem arises when.

so much. It's a general, it's a general trend you can point to

though. That's accurate. But also I think that both couples are, and look, we, we need, we need to get off like. We need to get away from couples with children at some point, to actually just talk about, let's just say, Yeah, I want to get back to the

question, which, the topic. Older

people aligning with each other, let's say, long after the children have grown up, and they're both set in their ways and used to their independence, and he likes going on cruises, but she doesn't, you know, how are they going to figure it out? But that's,

like, we're being a bit conservative. You said, oh, yeah, I remember someone in the 90s who used to live in separate houses. It's like, hang on, what about, like, Simone de Beauvoir and John Paul Sartre, didn't they live separately? Yeah, of course. Like, this has been going on forever. The assumption in the topic is that you'll meet someone on a dating app, have a great six months, then shack up. And I just don't see that happening very often, actually.

house? I think. We're socialized to believe that that's the case. I still believe that's very much the way we are, you know, that would be the expectation and those conversations usually do start to arise around that six or 12 month mark. It's like, okay, what are we doing? Are we going to move in together? Like those things definitely come up. I, I think where Sam was saying in that, you know, like you were saying, historically, people www. engvid. com Thank you so much for joining

us today and we'll see you

in the next one. Bye. Bye. Bye. Good luck. North Carlton Sharehouse with a bunch of other young women and almost relive my youth a little bit and be going out and getting bagels on a Saturday morning. And I, we got to have the best of both worlds. Yeah, that's fun. And then. That got to about the six month mark and it was going to make more sense to probably shack up. And then I did my usual thing and just became emotionally unavailable and ended it. But

like... Sounds like you, yeah, sounds like you don't want to be moving in and having anyone step on your prerogatives even in the slightest.

Well, would I be happier if I didn't have the opportunity to be a slob? No, no, because Maybe I'd be looking around my very neat... But, you know, look, my place isn't too bad at all, but some days I will, some weeks I will leave the dishes for four or five days, and Sam, you could never do that. No. But I'll put it to you that if Kath kicked you out tomorrow, the flat that you live in around the corner might not be the cleanest. Most well,

uh, that's an, it's interesting. I don't know. Maintained

apartment. You

know what I mean? I would certainly have the option.

You would. When the kids aren't coming around, you can live like you were 21. So no, it's

interesting. I got like dating plenty of men and then you get to see their apartments and you get to see, you know, and you actually get a little. Yeah. You've seen a lot. I've seen a few, but I've seen

more pictures. Hey,

hey, hey, slam,

slut shaming. Come on. But like some of them, yeah, you see like, oh yeah, they definitely live. Like a slob or then you say, well, this is my question,

mock that up to make my place look like that very quickly. I'd

say like these, like, just I'm thinking of specific examples, they're very much live like that and that's just their day to day.

But you're not a hoarder, are you, Joe? So you don't, no, you're fine. Like on that front.

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Look, it's been a fairly fallow period while I've been doing this podcast, and I must admit there's things like the ironing board doesn't get put away anymore, it just gets ironing piled up on it in the lounge room and things...

Ironing? Who irons these days? I don't iron it. I have to get

my white shirts, white t shirts, very crispy white to go under the tracksuits, so I pay my daughter two dollars an item. I've heard that eshays,

eshays need to be good at laundry. Yeah. I've

heard. I've heard. No, that's the only reason to iron the white t shirts. Yeah.

I don't iron anything. It's not in my skill set. And

you're certainly not going to be, no woman is going to be able to iron that t shirt to your satisfaction, Joe. You know. Oh, my

daughter does. It's fantastic. Jesus.

But like, so just so you She makes good money out of it.

It's capitalism. Oh, I see. I see. I see. But

I'm saying like, if you shacked up with someone, the expectation is your partner isn't picking that up and then ironing your t shirts for you.

I've never dated someone who wasn't a pretty hardcore feminist. And I've never had my fucking undies picked up, or, like,

even, a bit, this stuff that

you talk about, to me it's like, from the 1950s, I have no idea what you're talking

about. No, I'm not joking. This is outrageous. And it's not just one person. It's not one. We're not talking one. They said they expect you to do their laundry. No, they didn't say anything. They didn't say anything, it just appears there, and you're like, okay, am I doing

burn this for you? I mean, R E S

P E C T, Ali. I know, when I

was young, and I didn't know any different, and like, that sort of very defined gender roles was modelled to me from my parents. It's just, oh, okay, well, that's what I've got to do. But then, you know, since... This is in the 21st century. No, well, now, I certainly would not tolerate that. I absolutely... Like you can take your stuff home. You can take, I'm not cleaning up after you. Or this is how the, you know, do you need help with how the washing machine works? Like that's about it.

And let's say that there was a scenario where, You, you find, you found yourself doing it and it was not like, um, it was not like a, a huge like burden work wise. It would nonetheless interfere with your respect for that person. And it's just as simple as that.

And you become resentful because it's like, okay, I don't mind putting on a load of washing if you've chucked some things on, but when are you ever going to. Just do a load of washing with my stuff in it. And then, or even worse, like, you know, they'll, you know, the sort of the, you know, um, feigned incompetence where they'll deliberately wash something that is, you know, and do it wrong or shrink something or ruin something so that, Oh, you do it better than me. So that job now falls to you.

I knew lots of women, lots of women growing up, for some reason, I think people's mums would confide in me, but yeah, they would often say things like, I fucking hate doing the cooking. Yeah. And I'm like, like, oh, like you hate doing it all the time. No. I never liked it and never will. I'm like, okay, like, you know, dad would cook like two nights a week and mom was just burdened by it. Like she just didn't like, didn't want to do it most of the time.

You don't have to worry about the 45 school emails.

Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is. That's right, and so what this goes to, I think, is like, let's say, even taking children out of the picture, two people entering into just any level of cohabitation, or just spending any amount of time around each other, it's one of the, like, Uh, you know, has you had to do, uh, with your psychologist and also when you were in the hospital, like auditing your connections and all of that.

the first time I was asked to do it, yeah, it was my psychologist and I was in my late thirties and I'd never thought about that before. Like, Oh, these are the things that actually really bother me or these are the things I really want. And I hadn't really thought about it. It was more just like, I'm attracted to this person. I have a nice time with this person. I'm going to be with this person. I shouldn't have to think about anything else. Yeah, exactly.

it's not hard. My mom's one of these people. It's not hard to meet. A woman in her 70s who gave up on men around their early to mid 40s and just went, you know what? Fuck this. And I think women are much, we've spoken about this And there's a

lot of blokes that too, they just don't talk about Well, like

I said, there are a couple of people I know, my age, who I've heard the rumour that they've just gone, we don't date anymore. And I would say that's not healthy because that's a sexual anorexia. Kicking in in your early 40s, where you should still be having healthy sex and intimacy and that kind of thing, um,

But who's to say you can't have those things

without... Well, you can't without someone else, generally. No,

no, but I'm saying you could still date to have sex or like see people to have sex. No, no, they're not

dating to have sex,

they're not dating. Okay,

and they're just not having... They've just gone, I'm done with it all. And I think it's more common for women to do that than men, Because it's not obvious in this topic that you or all your friends are gonna decide, you know what, yeah, I will compromise on a bunch of stuff and have a big hairy man who leaves his jocks on the floor of the bathroom in my house. I don't think you're leaning, I don't think you guys are leaning...

So I would say a lot of these women have made those compromises though, in their thirties for fertility reasons, as in they would not have necessarily settled down with that person in their twenties or like 10 years before, but because for a variety of reasons, they want to have kids, they have made compromises and are now, you know, have made babies with these. Men, and for whatever reason,

made babies with these babies, I'll begrudgingly acknowledge their adult biologically. Well, look, honestly, I just want to say like, sorry, Ali, I really should let you continue with this. It's an important train of thought, but like, if there's any one that's male listening to this. And you're not picking up after yourself, like, please, for the love of God, do it, do it for your bros. Do it so that Ali can just one day come on the show and say, Sam, I think it's, I think it's over.

And I'll just say I never try and give advice on this show or tell anyone else what to do. Sam's quite happy to do that, I've noticed. Look, I'll say this as if someone's listening to you, Sam, why would anyone listen to you? No,

no, no, no, I'm, no, I'm, no,

I'm, you can talk about your own experience, but when you do share advice, it's like, no one's tuned into this cause they're like, want to hear Sam, the expert on

blah, blah.

collective sadness for the state of men.

I'm actually really tired and sad of hearing these retrograde conversations on the radio, like just the same old stuff. Endlessly. Men still aren't doing this, men still aren't doing that. That's reflecting poorly on me. And I'm sick of it. Like, I feel like I'm not getting credit for what I'm actually putting in. I don't mean within the, these, within this house, I mean within the broader community.

Or is it that, like, have you heard of, there's a phenomenon about like men wanting compliments? or Acknowledgement for doing basic things. Where's my compliments? Yeah, exactly. And that, that women, I definitely want praise for everything. So yeah, you want praise for something that like, you know, look, look, I picked my underpants up off the floor. Am I a good boy? No, whether it's that, or it's just like men, the expect expectation, I somehow want praise for doing.

like... It's definitely, yeah, I definitely identify with that. I want constant praise for everything I do.

this is, look, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong, and I think that a good couple... Um, I'm just going to say this and people can feel free to disagree. I think if you are not in the habit of regularly showering the other person with like, plausible compliments and plausible acknowledgements, and if you're not doing that, why the hell not? Like, it's not hard.

Cause the last few years of my longterm relationship was like, forget about it. And by the time we got into couples counselling, it was like the slightest hint of anything positive coming towards me. Sure. There was so much resentment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, but because I haven't gone into a long term relationship again, there's, there's also been very little praise. Like, but you know, so you see, so you get it from making a woman feel fantastic and then they look at it in this way.

Yeah. And to be honest, I don't always need them. Like if, if the other person's like happy and glowing and they feel like they've done a good job, then I'm happy. But

that's still acknowledgement in itself. Like it's whether it's saying, Oh, thank you so much for cooking dinner or just, yeah, like you said, that loving look, it's still an acknowledgement of thank you for doing this lovely thing for me, whatever it may be. That's important. And those things are the first things to go when you're overworked and you become resentful.

So sometimes you have to put the ritual formulas in place in order to make up for the lack of the natural feeling of like, well, right now I'm not on cloud nine. Yeah. But

thank you for doing this thing for me because actually in the big scheme of things, that's actually going to be really helpful. So thank you for putting on the washing or cooking dinner or whatever it is.

We'll wrap it up, but tell me this, Ali. What is the benefit of having a live in man? I mean, is it sex on tap? Is it someone to give you a cuddle? Is it just a warm body in the bed on the regular?

I was gonna say, these undie not picker uppers, are they at least, like, bringing some good game in other areas? Like, will they listen to your day? Not just for you, but

for you. Just speak on behalf of your girls, your crew.

There is, it's not to say that, yeah, like these, these men don't bring lovely, wonderful qualities with them. They, they're, they're, there's a lot to be loved about them. Some

of them were even good to look at.

Yeah. Like they were, you know, or they were really good cooks and like, you know, they just weren't really good at the cleaning up part or they were, you know, such a low hanging fruit. It really, but like, I think for me, like the things that are really lovely about having a live in partner is it's actually just at the end of the day, having somebody. That you can go to with your day and it's just there for you. And they're all, they're like, yeah, it's, it's a really nice feeling.

that's where I... No, no, but the time, right? Forget about occasionally. You're doing it occasionally. Anyone can do. Occasionally you just download a dating app, you find someone No, but I'm saying like in a consistent, you see them a fortnight and that's occasionally

I can do that. What in a consistent No, I'm saying in a co consistent way. Having that day to day, someone doesn own it. That's

saying you to sell me. Alright. Sell me on the idea of shacking up with someone.

I don't, I

"Ali, do the impossible and persuade me to trust a woman again." Yeah.

I don't know that shacking up with someone is the way to go. I don't know that I would. I I

guess I assume that I'll do it again. I do assume

that I'll do it again. Joe, you are totally, resolutely committed to this idea while simultaneously... Not truly believing that you can do it. So yeah, it's a tough spot to

look at you, Sam, and it seems bloody hard. Yeah, it is. And I don't know Cath well, but it just seems hard. Like, it just seems arduous.

Well, she has two jobs. Like, so, like, I need to mention that. That like, it's very, it, the reason I'm doing more than most blokes is I need to.

that you're, yeah, it's surprising as someone I met when you were wild, wild 20, we didn't know about ADHD, it wasn't

invented in 2000. The level of self neglect was outrageous.

Yeah,

like a wild, wild man in your early 20s.

Seems very familiar. The most scattered, wild, like, you know, the only person who seemed completely scattered when they hadn't actually taken acid the night before, that I knew. It's true. That person now, to be in this harness of incredible structure, and everything's kind of structured, and like, no shade on cats, but it is quite hard to pin you down for a time to do a podcast recording once a fortnight. No, no, that's true, Joe. Because you literally barely have three hours

actually, can I, although, I want to be clear about this. You're the one who told me... "Freedom is living by self imposed rules." And I like, and I was like, yes, yes. Right. So what I had at that point was self imposed standards, which was good, but I didn't actually have rules or I did, but they were kind of unconscious aspirations and I wasn't following them consistently. And, and this does relate very nicely to the topic of compromise.

I was grafting, I was doing the, no, no, well, I mean, It's always a bit fucking ambiguous, that's what used to do my head in. Yeah. If you give me tasks, ten tasks to do at work in a work day, I'll get it done. Yeah. Very, uh, diligently. Yes. But it's a bit vague in a domestic

sense. It is

incredibly vague. And you can't then rely on your partner to then delegate those tasks because they're by default putting them in a managerial position that they didn't ask for. That's right. And that's the argument.

I've just made a friend from, I've just made a friend from Alabama and he talks about Do you get many attaboys from Kath when you get the day's tasks done or is it just

unspoken? Yeah, no, sometimes. Like it'll come in the, it'll just come in the form of. There's a good vibe because things are functioning, you know, and it's like, well, the thing is, but I've got expectations of my own. There's things she needs to keep on the go. There's plates she has to spin, like, and like, if I'm able to, if we're both able to hold onto that, the reality that the other person is spinning plates, everything goes pretty well.

There's no day off from this job, is there? No. There's no rostered day off. There's no Sunday. Nope. And that's the part. But see, I don't have to worry about this part, Sam, because I'm not about to ever have kids again. My youngest is 10. She's becoming a bit more self sufficient. We've spoken about how the 14 year old's doing the ironing now. So she's pitching in, which is amazing. Yeah, that's super cool. They both get themselves ready for school, et cetera.

I'm making the investment now. Yeah. But

that hard labor period is gone. So whoever my new... Perspective partner that I'm going to live with that I imagine does exist. You're not going to have these sort

of strains to do this? He's not going to have

these kind of strains. No.

So it's, it's, it's, you'll have the energy and the time. To be able to enjoy that time with your partner.

it's such a waste of life. You want

that time to be like, Oh, we're going on holiday. We're talking, you know, we're listening to music. We're doing, you know, whatever it

is that you want to do. Or we're just gossiping about the neighbors and having a good

time. And having a nice time. It's relaxed and you're at peace and it's, you know, you've become very protective of your peace and inviting somebody into your life to create drama. Why would you do that at this point in your life?

All right, preach, preach, yeah, yeah, be protective of your peace, that is

good advice. I mean, and that's been my journey for the last 15 16 months, was coming out of the incredible melodrama of the worst relationship I've ever had, but also the most intense as well, with some highs in there as well. You were looking for those highs? Yeah, yeah. I took the highs, gotta bank the highs, but like...

So, and this is the kind of. thing that a lot of women have had to confront many times in the past and And I think that maybe one of the reasons why I did hear more than one woman in the 90s say they weren't going to re partner, and I think it had a lot to do with children and they didn't have that confidence

that... But women with kids as well, you've got to think about the stepdad, the stepdad's often going to be the monster. Correct. Like statistically, he's often going to to introduce a stepdad? Yes. Whereas I don't have, maybe I'm naive, but I don't have that same concern with my daughter's meeting a woman. Correct. And I just think that's a statistical reality that the most less likely they're going to be. There's the evil stepmother, sure, but not so much sexual abuse and stuff like that.

No, not as much of that, certainly, but there might be other resentments. Oh, there's

resentments! I was just talking about actual... I was just talking about damaging emotional abuse that can occur between like... But in saying that, what you ultimately hope is any step parent is just another person there to love and support your kids. I mean, whether they, you know, it all works out that way. It's been my experience, blended families is very tricky. Yeah. And it's talk of talk about compromise. Yeah. It's real. It's real.

what about you now, Ali, your son's just turned 15. Yeah. Do you, you can all, you can factor that in a lot less now, can't you? Yes. It's not so much going to be, here's your new dad.

No, it's not that he was ever introduced as a new dad. yeah. Yeah, but yeah, but like. There's no figurative. No, yeah, no, there's not going to be anybody. And like, yeah, like I suppose it's, it is less of a factor and it will be less of a factor the older he gets in that, you know.

free and liberated and you have a lot of options in front of you, Ali. Yeah. But do you feel that? Or do you feel like it's all a bit, uh,

flat? Some of it's theoretical,

Yeah. Some of it. Look, I mean, honestly, like. There's equal parts of me that really enjoy going out and meeting new people, I really enjoy that, having a really fun time, it's all, it's, dating can be really, really fun.

got the one cat, so you've, you've, you've got one foot in the cat lady

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's interesting. I think I just, you've Joe, you've helped me put my finger on an unconscious thought that has been lingering here this whole time and I finally got it. Oh, it was bugging me. We need to state the unstated thing here, which is if Ali decides. And her girlfriends decide as a cohort, they're out and you can see the reasons why she's laid them out. There's other ones you haven't even gotten into, right? Plenty, any, no shortage of reasons, right?

do on this show, Sam and I appreciate it. Yeah, that's right. but, but men, binary thinker.

That's

I, yeah, physically, I only have to look at my diet as a single guy and know that I would be healthier if someone was watching what I lived on. And not even saying anything, just observing in that way women are so good at doing.

Silent accountability. Oh, where's

the vegetable?

Just the raised eyebrow. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, you're having that again. Yeah, cool. And uh, yeah, I know.

Anyway.

No, exactly right, Joe. Yeah, I think you're right. I met someone recently when I was traveling in her late fifties and she's, she's dating and she's like so many women I find.

And there might be some other men there and I might socialize with them a little bit. Yeah. And

then the men who are successful are the men who go to the tango classes and the book groups. Big time. Right. And that's, I'm staring down the barrel of Anita. Talk about low hanging fruit, Ali. But it's like, I need to either lock someone down. Yeah, who likes test cricket or I need to, I'm going to have to push myself out there to do the line dancing, which I don't want to do. Right. So I'd rather lock someone down.

look at it this way. The test cricket thing is, I'm going to say it makes it a slightly more difficult sell, but I'm a confident salesperson. So I'm going to take this case on and I'm going to put a positive spin on it. What I'm going to say is Joe, you know, values his quiet leisure time and is very understanding All of your needs in that respect, right? And so you're going to, you know, if you partner up with Joe, you're going to have, you're going to have time for your tango class.

And that's what, and what Allie read out. Yeah, that's what we're talking about. You have separate holidays. You have, and it's like, that's the same thing. It's like, well, you know, on Saturday I'm gonna be doing that. So you go and do your thing, your fucking pottery class or whatever. Yeah. Uh, or I don't drink. You go on that winery tour. Yeah. I'll be just right here. Yeah. And then on Sunday I'll come and pick you up when you've got a hangover. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah.

ways, because the last thing you would want is like a girlfriend that is like, Oh, I've made all these plans for the weekend.

Yeah. And you're like, Oh, there's the cricket. And you're like, what am I going to do?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then I just break up with them.

Well, yeah. No, but, but here's what you do instead, right? Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Okay. I'm listening.

Okay. Bill Burr said it best. Hey, you know, Hey boys, how often have you thought to yourself when she says, let's go to brunch. And like, you're screaming inside. No, no, no. Let's go to brunch and then let's go to bed, bath and beyond or whatever. Right. And then you are screaming to yourself inside. No, no, no. But you don't do that because you're afraid of dying alone. So you go to Bed, Bath Beyond and you just silently hate her. And then, Bill's like, don't do that to yourself.

that similarly, like I found myself doing those sorts of things and like, yeah, like I activities that I historically would have been like, yeah, I'll go along with that. No, I don't want to do that anymore. No, I'm not going to spend my weekends doing that. I'm going to do the things I want to do.

And women will say this, that they, you know, that they've really compromised for others. They've done things they didn't want to do, that we've been socialized to be agreeable, et cetera. Yeah. I think a lot of men are just not willing to admit the amount of stuff they do they don't actually want to do and I think it's just all parties have to be more honest about this.

do that without the diplomacy and that's the problem. I mean, I feel like you've got a role model. I don't know how personal you want to get, but you have a role model in your mum who is quite independent in a relationship. Yeah. I mean, story you told me was that. There was a house booked and she's like, I'm not going to that because I don't want to be on the same roof as the whole and do something else and she goes overseas, right? So you've actually... She's only

started doing that because she, this is a woman who's compromised her whole life and compromised and sacrificed a lot. Finally got to a point where the kids were old enough and were off the, you know, and that she didn't have that responsibility anymore. So she finally had the time and the means to be able to do the things she wanted when she did. And she absolutely took that opportunity.

I think we should leave it there. I think that's great that you have that Ali and uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's an ongoing. It's interesting to me to see how clearly you guys can see how fucked I am in this area.

I think you've, I think you've done a lot of work and I think you're willing to do more of it. Like, you just never underestimate that nearly everything I've done wrong in a relationship has come down to a, like a fear of getting it wrong and being instantly rejected forever. And that might sound odd coming from a bloke, like, I think we're used to hearing women say things like that,

but it's But now you've worked out a system which is basically Be consistent and can perform consistently and you have marital bliss.

Well, and yeah, but I'm like 60% of the way there in terms of consistency, right?

And nobody's going to be 100% consistent all the time.

That's right.

And if you've got ADHD, it's really not going to happen.

It's an amazing story, Sam, because essentially, I feel like in this situation, you've essentially taken a round peg, jammed it in a square hole, and it's kind of working. Well, yeah. You in captivity. Yeah, it seems strange to me from the outside. Of course. Actually, it's very strange. You seem to be fairly content in it. So it's good. Yeah, absolutely. And,

but I will say this, like, if anyone thinks, Oh God, all right, so if I want like an orderly life with a bit of meaning in it, like I just have to completely surrender myself and just, and everything's regimented.

Oh yeah, I feel very similar in that sense. Like, if I hadn't known this back then, but it's just not the way it works. And there were a lot of things that I thought were like, Oh, how dare you bust my balls about the amount of video games I'm playing.

I'm a basket case, but hey, I'm working on a lot of stuff, but the one thing I'll say and I'll end on this is the one thing I can take out of that traumatic relationship that God knows has been an obsession on this podcast.

Yeah. That was really positive. This pod is owed to that person, actually, in a way.

Totally, as is a lot of things in my life at the moment, which is fucking weird. Thank you, Weird Lady from Byron. the one thing I'd say that I want to do again, that worked incredibly well and had zero negative side effects, was learning to cook something so that I could cook that person a really nice dinner. And they would watch me get stressed.

Yeah, well that's the thing, I don't care if I'm the better cook and you're not a great cook, but just, even if someone made me a toasty, that would that for dinner because I didn't have to think about or cook it. It does not bother me. And I started to do some of that, and... That was really positive. So I'm going to leave on that.

A high quality toasty, it's not that difficult. Okay, so vegans, block your ears. Throw a bit of butter in the pan, add a little bit of vegetable oil to like, stop it from, so you can get it to a high temperature without it burning.

Oh, see I put mayo on the outside.

Well, yeah, that works very well too. That works very well too.

You've got to have a sandwich press. I'm cutting this by the way.

Sandwich press bar humbug. Throw it in the pan. Yeah, with kimchi in it. Kimchi and cheese toasty Alright, we'll throw the recipe up on the show notes. Actually, alright, I'll add it to the show notes. See ya!