Being the victim

There's reality, which is loving awareness,

unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.

And then there are the 10, 000 things.

Hello and welcome to the 10, 000 things. My name is Sam Ellis.

My name's Joe Loh.

And I'm Ali Catramados.

Today on the show,

three neurodivergent people deal with one of the 10, 000 things.

Yeah, is that our, is that our thing?

Something like that, isn't it? Yeah.

Sounds good to me. Hmm. We workshopped it, we improved it a bit a couple of episodes ago and I think we'll just keep improving it until we find one we like.

Do we need the neurodivergent angle for people to listen to us or not?

I think for some people... It's an, it's added value, but then at a certain point you forget that you're listening to three neurodivergent people, they're just three people and that's kind of the whole point I guess.

Yeah. What percentage of the population is neurodivergent?

Great. I don't know. Ali, you might have a better idea than me. No idea. I mean, you hear things like one in five.

That probably sounds about right.

Yeah, or am I getting that mixed up with, that's the rate for chronic anxiety for under 20s. But I mean look, it's often one in five.

I think in a capitalist society you need to have an angle and we, that's our angle, right? Yeah. The neurodivergent.

Everyone has to market themselves, that's right.

Yeah. And there's a neurodivergent flag that we could hang up here in the garage if we really wanted to.

Oh, for sure. Well, I've already got the rainbow flag up.

But we could slice it and dice it more so that me and Ali were the bipolars, which is much more serious than what you're doing. No, that's

true. Yeah, fair. Yeah.

I don't know if you need to say that.

Which is the problem with, which is kind of the problem, which is kind of the problem with identity politics because eventually we slice and dice. So finally, does Ali win, you know, with her not being a man and me being a straight man but having, you know...

The family... Eventual illness. Yeah, that's right. No, look, it's a real horse race. It's a real horse race with you two, neck and neck.

All identity politics is a complete dead end. Well, no, I... I

think it actually

leads into today's topic, so maybe we should read out our quote from Eckhart Tolle. Yeah,

let's do it. go on then, today on the show. Today

on the show we have a quote from Eckhart Tolle from a book that I just re read called A New Earth. Eckhart wrote The Power of Now quite famously in the late 90s, which Oprah picked up and it became a spiritual, uh, super mega seller. Absolutely. Which I've read and re read quite a few times. This one's also very re readable. Eckhart himself is a weird, not very cool seeming guy. Not in a bad way, just a slightly creepy vibe about him. But his books are amazing.

I agree. The opening of The Power of Now is incredible. It's really strong. It's a very arresting, it's well written chapter. It's just, it's, it belongs in the genre of like the addict's personal testimony, doesn't it? And it's got, it's got the rock bottom. It's got the, the witnessing, witnessing the miracle.

He had a spiritual experience, like a white light moment where All his fear and anxiety just drained away and he was, yeah, standing in the sunlight of the spirit. It's

a salvation, you know, and recovery from addiction narrative with a lot of the classic hallmarks. Well

he wasn't an addict, but he was suicidal. He went from suicidal to spiritually enlightened. And he would say... Has stabilised his spiritual enlightenment, which is often the trick with a spiritual awakening is just can you stay in that state? And he would say stabilize it and now is worth a hundred million dollars or something.

Well, that's right. And I was about to say I think it's one thing to recover from like a really difficult moment or It's a period in your life like that. And then it's quite another thing to achieve radical success in a short time and then start hanging out with the Illuminati. I mean, yeah, it's going to do things to you. All right.

Should we do the quote? So the quote just needs to stand on its own, I think. It does. It Eckhart

Tolle. Well, there you go. We got him out the way up front. So here's the quote. "A very common role is the one of victim and the form of attention it seeks is sympathy or pity or other's interest in my problems. Me and my story. Seeing oneself as a victim is an element in many egoic patterns such as complaining, being offended, outraged, and so on.

think that comes back. You know, just so much of not seeing, being, not feeling seen in childhood, not feeling heard. And perhaps the only times you were seen and heard were in fact, when you were being cared for or tended to perhaps when you were sick or something. And so, yeah, this, this pattern then, you know, of like reward for being, you know, the victim, like, you know, you were bullied at school and, "Oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you."

That's it. That's exactly right. I agree entirely. Yeah.

Uh, identifying as a victim is a particularly toxic thing that swept through the culture in like the 2010s, I think, and has been very bad for people, I think. Sure. Because what he's talking about is broader, like Yes.

Leaving aside identity, for example, I'm a victim because of this one thing that happened or this identity I belong to.

No, but it's the way the ego reifies itself. So yes, that's what I'm saying. So what Eckhart agrees with me on is that I'm loving awareness. Yes. And the illusion is Joe, the separate individual. And the more that I. build up that illusion, the more I suffer. Now, I can, to, to define myself, if I'm not successful in my career, say, or, or in my family or whatever, then maybe all I have left to define myself is I'm a victim. That's right.

of course. Victim blaming or just not acknowledging your own privilege of not actually experiencing those things that people do feel

victims of. Yeah. Now of course, to be fair, Joe's got plenty of claims to that status himself and so that you're not in the, you're not coming at this quite from the point of view of the crusty boomer who's like everyone wants a medal now. Yeah. Like your perspective on it is no, no, no, I've been through the shit and you know, how many times you've been hospitalized? A couple. Yep. And You know, you've had, you had a pretty sticky wicket earlier.

I'm advocating waking up from the illusion of being a separate self. Sure. Trapped in an ego. And, and being able to use your ego as a tool to navigate the world, to make a living and all that, but basically to rest in a loving awareness. That's right. So, a spiritual awakening is what I'm advocating.

Yeah, the ego has instrumental purposes and needs to remain an instrument and not the driver of what's happening.

And I think that's why I read and reread those books because it layers it into my system. The only path that I've found to liberation. Because as long as we're trapped in a purely egotistical material world, we will suffer because we miss, we, we misapprehend reality and we misapprehend who we are, who we are and what we're doing on earth.

It's so, it's limiting, like it doesn't, it's limiting in that there's so many things we could be, but we're just limiting ourselves to these, to this really narrow frame of reference of, you know, of victim rather than, you know, yeah, you could just say you have, Whether it's trauma, diagnoses, you know, bad things that have happened, whatever they are and like multiple things that have affected you negatively.

You've had a car accident.

Like those things are horrible and have absolutely impacted you, you know, in the way that you move through the world. It is limiting to then just be, just defined purely by that rather than, yeah, like you're just a car accident victim rather than, you know, you're also a partner or, you know, you're a parent or, you know, this is what you do for work. Like there's so many other labels and things that make a whole person.

Or the ones that are like, perhaps we could even reframe them as like, you could be proud of what you've gotten past or what you've endured, let's say, maybe you haven't gotten past it entirely.

Right. Which is, you know, yeah. Like everyone has certain barriers. Yeah. If you're able to either work with or around your barrier, you know, those things that everybody has. But yeah, like to just be defined by simply all the things that you've struggled with. I don't want to be defined by my struggle. Yeah, that's right.

Oh, that's right. Oh, you don't want to be, yeah, that's right. You don't want to only be, oh, you know, I recovered from this enormous setback in life. It's like, well, okay, what else? Yeah. Yeah.

I think, yeah, I think the trauma is the big one that people that turned into their identity in the last little while and trauma has been expanded to be this hugely much broader term for something that was like shell shock a hundred years ago. But now it's live. Yeah. Could be all kinds of things that I wouldn't consider trauma.

Agreed.

And then, then the trauma becomes I'm the victim of this trauma and that's who I am and now I'm going to focus On this thing in the past, so not in the present where I'm living my life. This thing in the past will now define me and I like, so I would say that process trauma, if you're able to, as best as you possibly can, and then get on with life as best as you possibly can, you know, and don't make that your, your whole identity.

Also, I wanna broaden this out a little bit into like getting away from, say you've been.

Yeah, they both believe that the things that they have contributed have not been appreciated, and then they're resentful of their partner for,

yeah. And their suffering has been overlooked, or that their suffering is greater than the exactly, yeah.

Or if you don't have anything dramatic, you could just say you're a victim of capitalism or a victim of the government, or pretty much anyone on earth could say they're a victim of something.

Well, this is where I'll push back, though, because I think... The only place where we really disagree, or maybe it's not even a disagreement, is I do think that if someone is willing to say publicly that they're a victim, then something is wrong. So even if they're making it up in the classical sense of like, you know, they're pretending to have a disability or they're pretending to, uh, you know, uh, a sexual identity or something that, you know, they're a fraud on some level, right?

It's awful, but yeah, like it absolutely, it takes so much away from any, yeah, any sort of, like they're absolutely torn apart for it because it's like, it feels like a real betrayal to somebody who actually has. Experienced, you know, any sort of real, you know, um, experience of it. And it's just, it's horrible. It's horrifying seeing other people use things that yeah, have been deeply traumatizing just for financial gain or for notoriety or for any

of those reasons. For the attention, for the pity, the compassion, the sympathy, the fame. And of course, uh, the money, uh, what was her name? Cancer, cookbook, and she didn't have cancer. Bell Hooks. Oh yeah, sorry. Bell Gibson.

Bell Gibson. That's it. That's it. Sorry, that's my um, that's my bad. I'm thinking of someone. Yeah. Yeah.

Bell Gibson. That's right. Not Mel. Bell Gibson. Bell Gibson. One of the most bizarre stories. Yeah. She

had brain cancer. Like that meme. Well, that reel constantly pops up on my Tik Tok of like where she's being interviewed and she's like, so you died twice on the operating table. You've had, you know, you've had brain cancer, you've, you've cured it with, you don't, you all like the, the list of things that she had was extraordinary. Like absolutely. Who would make this up? Yeah. Like it was, it was absolutely extraordinary. And like.

you know, but a bunch of raw food. Yeah. But like,

imagine like, they're making a Netflix series about her at the moment. Awesome.

You know, you've made it. Yeah. Anyway, go on. Sorry. I

was going to say, but it's like a lot of those ones, like, um, inventing Anna and like, we love a fraud. Oh, we do. Well, Netflix loves a fraud. Yes. Sorry. And what's the other Tinder

Swindler? Yeah. Yeah. The dating app.

So, the instinct is, look at me, and in her case, give me lots of money. Now, the give me lots of money probably everyone can relate to, but the look at me is something

that can be... The stolen valour really, really grinds people's gears the wrong way, but here's what I wanted to point to. It reminds me of when something is wrong with that person, let's all agree, and are they having a good time?

at what po like to look at it from like Yeah. Objectively and think what has gone wrong or what has led her to think Yeah. That this is the answer to her problems. Yes.

That's the question I always ask.

What is, yeah, what has, what has led to that? It's that series of events. 'cause it's such an ex, I mean her is such an extreme case of it really is of that, but, um,

but, but that's the point, isn't it? Eckhart's making, which is to have any egoic identity in charge.

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm getting at. I think we're all, we all suffer is what I'm saying. But to have

any in charge is, is a form of sickness. But what he's talking about is what most people operate on, which is, this is my identity. I'm over here, we said at the start about identity politics, I'm over here and this is my identity. I'm Joe the straight white guy who wears tracksuits and has a mental illness and a recovering addict and I work in the film industry. Now all of those things... Are completely irrelevant to who I actually am as consciousness or what I would call loving awareness.

world. I think like falling back into, like, people falling into that trap of like what you say, it's so easy to gravitate towards falling into that trap of becoming the victim. There is a sense of... Familiarity in the known outcome, as in, I know when I say and, or do this or identify in this way, there is going to be some sort of perceived like attention or sympathy or whatever it is.

well worn path. It really

is. So I think that's why people are so quick to.

And let things die of neglect, you know, don't water the plant like that as we were talking about recently. What I would

say is take response, radically take responsibility for everything you possibly can take responsibility for. And the only thing in my life that I'm not sure how much responsibility I have for. Is my bipolar because only because I don't know how much of that is genetic and I don't think science knows how much of that's genetic or biological. That's

true. The gene, the gene of science has been very disappointing on mental illness. It's really come up with nothing this whole time. Yeah. It's a

total myth. It's a bit of a black box, but everything else, like I need to look for what my part in the problem was. So every relationship. Every, the state of my career, uh, how much money I do or don't get from the government, how much money I do or don't owe the taxman. All of that is my responsibility. So that's the opposite of being a victim. But then there's also, I think something I've noticed with Ali and other people is you can have Over responsibility.

people. Everything rests on my shoulders. I'm taking care of it.

Yeah. That martyr sort of complex. I mean, I've watched, I think, like, I don't want to make generalizations here, but I've watched a lot of women, particularly older women and who the expectation really was that you had to do all these things. But then it also became like, well, it's the only thing I can complain about, so I'm going to

weaponize

it. Yeah, because it's all I have. That's all I have. And so I can see how they've fallen into that. But I've certainly witnessed, particularly a lot of older women, who've fallen into that martyr of... Yeah, I've done everything for you. I've had to do everything for you. And

the impulse behind it isn't wrong at all. And this is what happens when you deny people a meaningful role outside of that. It's just what happens. Maybe Joe was almost willing to acknowledge this in a way by... sort of satirizing the, oh, we're all victims under capitalism, but like, okay. You know, I think there's some trust, some truth in that.

This is very crude terms, but I think the left has a lot of people who have a victim mentality. And I think the right has people who have an over, like overly active sense of responsibility and want to be responsible for things which are none of their fucking business.

Are we talking the traditional right here? Or are we talking the neo right? Look, we've got to sort this out because the defining character of Marga and Christian nationalism and Christian identity is also being a victim. It's the defining feature, man. Yeah. Yeah. White people. You can see what I'm talking about. They're a

victim of big government and a victim of the woke left. White people are

being robbed. Like they downsized the food packaging. It's the woke. So

no one's being over responsible then?

Everyone wants to take their hands off the wheel. Everyone. Look, look, like the billionaires are all like, oh no. It wasn't me, I can't, what, uh, I'm just in my bunker if anyone needs me. I can't sort this out. I didn't make this. Everyone's wildly disavowing. Everywhere you look.

Do you know what I mean though about the right wanting to be controlling of other people's, say, reproductive rights or whatever? It's an over responsibility for like, oh, I'll take care of that and control

that. If you want, yeah, no, I agree. It's a

fucked up... But then like the traditional right or the libertarian right would very much be... No. Like, would not want to bar of

that. Absolutely not. Big government out.

Yeah. No big government. No one telling you what to do with your body or anything,

or, yeah. That's right. And no one telling you what to do with your workers. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's right. Your roads or healthcare or anything. You're on your own.

I think the world would be a much healthier place if everyone had a healthy sense of responsibility. Agreed. For the planet and for everything else.

There is a version of small C conservatism which goes... You know, somewhat along the lines of what you're thinking. I don't know, I don't think there's many of these people left where they're like, uh, I have my obligations as a... You know, a business person, and a pillar of the community, and da da da, and as a church member, I have these responsibilities. That's not what we're hearing now. I mean, those people are still around, but they tend to be a little bit quieter, maybe.

of the hat. Well, your man, Jordan Peterson, who I always have to make the disclaimer, I'm not a Jordan Peterson pro.

He's a reactionary now, no. But,

he was the first person I ever heard say, What you need to do is take on as much responsibility as you can. He's the biggest

victim now. He's a victim of feminism. Sure, but

what he's saying... Someone told me I have to find this larger woman attractive.

But what he's saying to younger men... Oh my god, dude, he's a tissue. What he's saying to younger men that's really healthy is take on as much responsibility as you can. No, but he

stopped saying that a long time ago and now it's everyone else's fault. No, no, but

you guys are getting distracted by the celebrity of Jordan Peterson. I'm talking about... The really wise message that he, that I heard and I was like, I hadn't heard that. I

agree. There were some people that liked him early on and it was the

individual responsibility message. With my progressive left wing upbringing, I wasn't told, take on as much responsibility as you can handle and see what happens to your life. And then I look around and I see the people that have done that that aren't me, because I didn't do that. Okay, sure. And they're really successful. Okay, alright. And they're my peers, but they've taken on more responsibility and been willing to...

but similarly growing up in an environment where very, where people were very much pushed academically or business wise and take on all that. I've seen a lot of people get very burnt out living that kind of, that, that responsibility of what they're expected to do. Maximizing constantly. Yeah. It's like to better yourself, like not just to keep up with the Joneses, but like. You could be doing better in your career.

so yeah, so what I, so what I

saw was perhaps the same with victim. The victim frontier is ever receding and I guess so is the illusion of like taking charge and being in control. I think both of those things are ultimately illusions and fantasies to return to the terminology.

Yeah, but I'm not talking about being in control. I'm talking about being healthily responsible, which was something that I, I, you know, didn't learn until I got sober. And I had to make that responsible decision day after day to not pick up a drink and then other responsibilities suddenly seemed appealing when I'd been brought up with a laissez faire, do what you feel, just be, kind of attitude.

no, but your parents were acting in solidarity with people that were asking for more money. What do you mean? From their employment.

Trade unions? Yeah, yeah, sure. But, like, the idea that being successful in business, like, that was just, like, the lamest thing ever. Yeah. Let alone trying to keep up with the Joneses, like, who cares?

Australia wasn't all that entrepreneurial back then, though. Let's keep that in mind. No,

yeah, I was going to say, and my dad was probably the exception to the rule in very much being, like, an entrepreneur. But, I think, like, coming back to the quote and having Like where I agree with you, Joe, that, yeah, we should have a healthy sense of responsibility. The message needs to be in healthy and at being a balance.

disservice. often the thing that we're, that people will struggle to admit is wrongdoing done to them. Strange as that may sound, well, there are, there are, there are safe ones for them to talk about. And then the real one they don't talk about. We've shared about this a little bit, us three. And then the other thing we often struggle to admit. We'll admit to the small sins, but we'll really struggle to own up to the, the, the things we're really the most ashamed of.

place. Did you read out the rest of the quote about how therapists know that people don't actually want their

problem solved? Well, yeah, no, that's what I was getting to, right? I think you stopped

is the problem with therapy, isn't it? Which is, there has no end point.

unhappiness and coming to a balanced view of the self as being... Responsible to the self and to others, and also that, you know, things were done and you have sinned against. I think it's accepting all of that and yeah.

I think, and we've talked about this before on the show, like a good therapist will be working to make themselves redundant. Yes. So the whole point is at this point in your life, I'm teaching you.

Sam said in the last episode about yeah, the patient must devise their own medicine and re administer it Yes, that's right. But I think what he's saying is if What Eckhart's saying is if you have a victim mentality, there will never be an end to your therapy, because

you'll just... It won't progress at all. Yeah. No, no. A hundred percent. You probably won't even get to first base in therapy if you can't contextualize it in some way.

particularly with some things, there's so much shame and guilt that surrounds the event, whether it's of your own, you know, whether it's something you did or not, or something happened to you, there can be so much guilt and shame associated with those feelings that is really hard to speak about. And that's just why a lot of those things, you know, people.

apart. You have to move through that part and it is painful, but yeah, I agree with you that that resonates a lot. It, the clue I was going to try and, you know, offer just a little one piece of insight that I've got maybe about where to look if this is ringing a bell with anyone is like, look for those things where you are trying to explain it to yourself or like trying to figure out what you should have done differently. That's a clue to an area

of thinking what I should have done differently about my most recent trauma. But, I would say that I've never let it become my full identity. Yeah, alright.

Sure. Well, I think you've had a lot of other stuff to chew on along the way that you've held on

to. But I was plagued with obsessive thoughts about some incidents and then a lot of like thinking back over, if I had done that differently then I never would have been in that room or whatever. Yeah, that's right. That's probably true. But, yeah, it's undoubtedly true that... Things could have been different, but that's the point about the past. It's never going to change. So it's about coming into the present and maybe leaning slightly into the future.

Like, but I think it's, it's, it's not a part to be completely ignored or minimized as part of the process of getting through that trauma. I think, and when you then come to the other side of it, that will be a hot. One piece of the puzzle and it'll feel yeah that I needed to go through that as a response to what happened Yeah, in order to actually let go of it. It's you know, it's not

linear So don't make the mistake of going, you know, Joe's right. Oh god. Oh god. What a pathetic Self, pitying victim I've been this whole time. Yeah, Joe's right. I really, God, the amount of time I've wasted on this. Don't make the mistake of like now feeling guilty about that. It's just go, okay, that's what it had to be. Yeah. And now, cause I mean, I've wasted time on it too, but I should have said this upfront.

you've done to other people. Yeah, to rationalize the shitty behavior. Well, I, I responded this way because I was traumatized myself. That's it. And it completely absolving itself of... It's okay for me to keep acting this way because of... Yeah, which is, yeah, horrible. No, stop doing that. That's how it uses me. Perpetrate. Well, yeah, well, people who have been abused have perpetrated abuse.

Exactly. And I firmly believe that all bullies begin as victims and vice versa. And like, like there's, that's why Joe is, there's an inescapable kind of truth to what you're saying, which is at some point the buck stops with me. Like you do, you have to get there at some point, but like you do, but Ali's also right. You have to move through all these phases to get there and like, have that awareness. You know, maybe I could have done this faster. Maybe I couldn't have.

grief for, yeah, lost time or, you know, what could have been. And I've, I've really experienced a lot of that, like going through therapy in that it's like, ah, if I hadn't, God, I would have, it's, yeah, it's like the loss of an imagined future you had for yourself that 20 years ago, things would have been so different for me. It's not how it works. And, and

the loss of a better past, like in a parallel universe, you know, this would have happened

instead. And that's the thing. There's absolutely, my psych would say, well, there's absolutely no guarantee that that's how it would have worked out for you, but it's not, but it's, you're, there's safety in the fantasy because you're, and that, and that's what it is. Cause it's still a fantasy. Whereas yeah, it's actually stepping into like, yeah, into a known thing is. Well, into something that you can know is brave, whereas staying in this fantasy is safe.

Yes, that's right. Exactly. 100 percent safe, but deadly and dangerous. And we have to, to the greatest extent possible. So to rephrase what you said, we all have to take as much responsibility as we can. I'm going to just retwist that a little bit. We all, we all have interdependence with one another and we all have to honour the, those that are depending on us and vice versa. Right. And so. And we all have to let go of as much fantasy as we can, as fast as we can,

I don't, yeah, I don't know what the... Lakan is always, incomprehensible. I think he's, in the fantasy means in the context of that quote.

Lakan is in some ways a fraud, and in some ways a raving mystic. Hesitant

as I am to even try and get into a Lakan conversation. Hang on, I've nearly... It's not clear in that quote what the fantasy

means. No, I've nearly finished it. It's, well, it's how I was discussing

it the other week. What's the fantasy for a victim? So,

the, the fantasy of, sort of, this pure platonic victimhood. It's a fantasy. I have wro no,

I have wronged it as well. Yeah, and how I overcame, say, my trauma from my last relationship was to really radically own... My part in things, which was always very prominent, and there was nothing that happened to me that I didn't put myself in a position to happen.

Well, let's not go too far the other way. Let's not go too far the other way. That's how I overcame it. Well, okay,

that's fair then. So the fantasy was what you said, the fantasy was that I was a victim, an innocent somehow victim, and I

felt that... Purely, purely and entirely

a victim. But in every case I made choices which put myself in a position to be harmed.

You see, I think that's victim blaming though. Of myself? Of yourself, it is. But I don't identify. But I, but,

because I think, yeah, they're, they're, I identify as something that, someone who had some bad shit happen to me. Because there was

absolutely going to be people and circumstances where that is not applicable. Correct. Where they, there's absolutely nothing they could've or would've done where it would've,

yeah. Exactly, but if it's a relationship that you kept, Day by day choosing to stay in or go into, or go further into, and you look back and you can remember all those red flags that you've braved past.

It's easy in hindsight, isn't it? Yeah, but it's a time. But what

I'm saying is, I actually think this is a key to getting over things. There's some things which you can't take any responsibility for, like child sex abuse, but there's a lot of adult things that people don't real... Don't stop and think, what was my part? Okay, you're right. What did I do even a year before this happened that put me in

this position? Can we agree though, responsibility in the past... Be it hard to pin down. Responsibility in the present, also difficult, but it's the one That's

why I say radical responsibility. So I say look really hard. Okay. And find

where you were responsible. Let's, okay, so it's an ambit claim. Let's go for 100 percent and then we'll fall back to wherever reality lies. Okay.

Sure. Sure. No, I'm not really saying there's an ambit thing. I'm saying... Well, in this particular case, I can take full responsibility and then, and then I can overcome it because it's like, Oh man, well,

I guess Jesus is getting nailed to the cross and he's like, yeah, yeah, this, I did this,

I chose this. But are you still going to try and explain this Lakhan quote, which is basically like a whole nother episode? Well, no,

no, it's, I think this will be in another episode, but I think this is not as difficult. Um, now that I've read it five or

six times, I like that last bit you said about the, the quote about the,

subject. Okay. So, and so the therapist has to have, so basically the desire of the analyst, right? An uncompromising belief in the possibility that the dignity of the subject can return in the separation from the fantasy. That's the bit

I like, except I don't know what the fantasy is. It's just any,

any thought that you actively maintain. You know, like a positive or negative self image or a positive or negative idea of others, there's just anything that's not real. Anything that's not

real is the fantasy. I'm talking about the dignity of the subject. When I say take responsibility and look for your part in things, what you'll get back eventually is the dignity

of the subject. That's what, and that's what we should always be striving for.

Yeah. Which is the opposite of being a victim, the opposite of, sorry, the opposite of having a victim identity is to have a. Fully responsible identity.

Well, and ultimately what a lot of victim, uh, victims are seeking is, is that dignity. And often in clinging to the label, they are seeking that dignity. They're asking to be given it. But perhaps what you're saying is stop waiting for others to give it to you or whatever. And you know, like the child that... The cries and then nothing happens and you cry a bit more and nothing happens, and then you really cry and then someone comes and soothes you, you know, like what Allie was saying.

this is pretty hot. This is you like nerding out Like, you're just going, this one is for the Sam stans out there, they're just gonna like, whoa, they've just let Sam off the leash, or no, like, because you've gone beyond what I can, like, what, what else? You can edit

it if you want, but like, I think it's very clear. To, to, to, to,

to, to quote my favorite catchphrase.

Stop investing in your own sense of alienation and try to make connection and, yeah.

I think we should finish up. But, tell me this Sam, I didn't really understand that Lacan quote, I won't be the only one out there.

When I read it a fifth time, you'll get it.

But what about the, so the dignity of the subject, I got that bit.

That makes sense. Doesn't it?

And, uh, and

the separation from the fantasy.

You were talking earlier about having a healthy self as a result of 10 years, say, of therapy. Sure. But what about the fact that the separate self is an illusion? I don't know. I tend to go. So there's a, there's not a contradiction. There's a paradox here that I have to grapple with, which is.

Of course. No, I think that's what it's why I keep coming back to Zizek Sorry everyone like that. We've got the

Yeah, maybe one day we'll just do a Zizek episode. You can try and Sam's

playing Zizek. No, no, I don't understand What I do what I do sort of grasp is that he's managed to kind of Bring ideas from like Pauline Christianity, and Marx, and Hegel, and Freud, and basically, so the way he's integrated the Western canon with the, with the you know, with the New Testament, but he's also integrated that with Marxism and like a account of human dignity, which is relevant to what we're talking about. It's all about human dignity. That's the whole project

I was just talking about the illusion of

the separate self. Well, right. Okay. So to get back to the paradox you're talking about We can't work.

Because that's what's up. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's, that's actually gonna impact everybody else. Yes. Rather than like, yeah. If you alone in your room doing nothing like isn't gonna

impact, well, that's knock yourself out doing it. That's the other side

of, of, of a non-dual understanding of reality is complete interdependence. Correct. Yes. There's not three people in this room. There's just one awareness. With three separate layers of conditioning.

That's right. And what we talk about a lot is our conditioning. Yes. So you are conditioning in a. Center right, business focused upbringing, you're conditioning in a Hare Krishna upbringing and my conditioning in a left wing, communist, anarchist upbringing, right? So that's what makes... It just gives us different flavors. It does. But our awareness, our consciousness, while we're here in this garage, is not separate.

than that, we've just been talking. Absolute rubbish

for 20 minutes. That's absolutely correct as well. Uh,

yeah, yeah. It's always bad when Ali goes quiet for 20 minutes.

No, no, it's like, I, it's like, I really get to like, I'm like, I'm listening with intent and I just, it's, yeah, I get stuck in that sort of, I, I'm, yeah, I don't want to say anything because I'm actually listening and just taking it all in and.

But I'm relying on you as the token Atheist Rational Materialist to step in and be like, no, of course the self and self's not an illusion. I've got mine over here. Thanks.

Because you really are alone in the Atheism because I really am a non committal. Yeah, and

you were drenched in spirituality growing up.

Oh, deeply. And I've said this before, I almost had that medieval experience of religion, when it was real shit, like it was thick, like, you know, like thick.

But that's the point, Ali, take us to task, take me to task on any of the spiritual shit

I say. But am I not allowed to appreciate, like, the discussion around it without

Well, you're not open minded.

Without activating her. Activate atheist mode. Must counteract.

She must, because it's not like she walks away thinking, Oh yeah, maybe I will start to have a curiosity about a higher power.

Joe wants you to be your paper cutout and he'll be his and we'll all act our roles.

But you don't have curiosity about spirituality really.

I

think you've got curiosity. I do around the cultural community sort of sense. And the phenomenology of it. Yeah, like, yeah, there's a, there's a fascination with it, but there's not a. Desire to be. Which you

either have to have an experience with it, like a felt experience with it, or it doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, I'd agree. But you've

never tried to do that either.

No, it's just never, it's never occurred to me that it's something I want or need in my life.

But then when you, when this show came out, you started listening to us and.

I find it fascinating. It's fascinating. I find it fascinating as a thing to.

From the outside, like an anthropologist or something.

How wonderfully non egoic of you. Not enacting the role of the victim or the perpetrator. You're just like, I'm just listening.

I'm just listening. It's something I'm interested

in. No, it's true. I think when I'm doing my best pod listening, it is very, the self almost vanishes sometimes. You're just grokking the consciousness. Yes. Like it's cool.

That's what it is. It is. You just, yeah, you're just sitting back and letting somebody else speak and. Put something together in a way that I would never have thought to put. Myself, because I don't have those thoughts, feelings or desires, but it's definitely a, yeah, it's still a fascination and an appreciation for what it is.

That's right. And also I'll give you credit. My Lakan digression in this episode, it was Ali, you said something and then I immediately started looking through the. Not immediately. I, a couple of minutes later I went, yes, there's something in the WhatsApp. I screenshotted this Lacan thing and I managed to find it in the hundreds of images in there. like you were the inspiration for that with the 'cause you took it back to therapy and that Yeah.

Well, no, it's a form of atheism. That's not the Richard Dawkins Yes. Atheism. Correct. So you don't have the instinct to come in and try and destroy

No, no.

Mike, no. Absolutely not. Nothing to prove. Nothing to prove Nothing. Yeah. No, I absolutely, I, I don't. I don't see any point in pulling apart anyone else's belief system. It doesn't, you know, I think the only time I would ever comment or feel like I would, the need to interject as if I felt there was harm or some sort of harm being perpetrated.

Yeah. That's right. It's working for you, man. Whatever gets you through the day. Yeah.

I find that incredibly condescending. Because what you're discounting is that she might have been having a spiritual experience. No, but

I'm not even saying that she wasn't, but I'm saying I've never had one so it's not something I can speak to. Could happen to you though. It could, I'm not saying it couldn't, but I find it unlikely just because it's nothing I've had an experience of before.

But also the non duality thing, the thing about exploring whether there's a separate self, it doesn't have to be spiritual, it's just an investigation. It's just asking a few questions with your eyes closed a few times in a row and suddenly something will become very obvious, which was not obvious before because it's right on the surface. Anyway, I think we should wrap it up. Well, that's right, man.

Ultimately, you have to get

past all the labels, man. Another few of the 10, 000 things. We're getting through a few now. We are. Thanks, Sam. Oh,

thanks, Joe. I just want to say, before you, well, thanks, Ali. Sorry, going over your thanks there.

No, no. We'll let Sam do another thing. Today, this

ep marks the official, Ali's done as many eps with us as we did before, I think. My count is correct. Just had a look at the stats before. Yeah, I updated some tags.

When does her probation period end?

Uh, I think it's officially over. There you go.

A while ago. A while ago. Good to have a diversity hiring,

officially. Look, I think this DEI policy's worked out really well. Yeah, um, yeah, that's right. Well, I mean, that's the... Geeks have thoughts too, who knew?

That's right. I know.

People with, that's right. People with CPTSD have voices also. That's right. Um, and we, and the PMDD, I'm looking forward to that one. Oh, and earlier you two were talking about... Food. And I was like, Oh man, we're all going to have something to talk about on the food episode. Anyway, that's a preview for next time. Well, as Joe said, this has

been. The 10, 000 things. Yeah. Two or three of. That's right. See you all next week. Yeah.

We're just improv ing this outro till we find one we like. Bye.