Are the blokes ok?

There's reality, which is loving awareness,

unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.

And then there are the 10, 000 things.

Hello and welcome to The 10, 000 Things. My name is Sam Ellis. I'm Joe Loh. And

I'm Ali

Catramados. Today in the show, a long time listener, Bron, sent us a request which was to listen to a podcast, a discussion between Mia Freeman and Catlin Moran. They were talking about boys and men in the wake of feminism and "Are the blokes okay" is the topic today, Ali, do you want to explain a little bit more some of the ideas? We were a bit cringe about the Mamma Mia podcast, but maybe we're not the target audience.

yeah, so it was an interview for Catelyn Moran's new book, What About Boys, I think was the title, and and she's obviously written some fantastic, you know, feminist literature over the years, and I think what she's really just exploring. I mean, this is not without, I mean, it's been critiqued quite heavily in the, the news, her, her take as being simplistic, but fundamentally what she's arguing is everyone is a victim of the patriarchy, both men and women.

Yeah. And how can we make sure that the... generation of boys coming through now who don't have the context, who don't understand what life was like even for relatively well to do women in the 50s or what was life was like before that and of course even the more recent history you know what was possible and okay in the 90s and noughties and how much that's changed and they sort of live in a world where it is just expected That women would be treated with the same respect that they would expect,

she had this really good example of where you know on social media You you know a woman will post a photo and all of her girlfriends are like, Pumping her up and saying like, Oh, you look great" and it's such an inclusive way now that it's not just restricted to looking a certain way You can be curvier and post that photo or you can have darker skin and post that photo and you've got women championing you. And what, what do men do?

horrible. And the normal thing among blokes, Joe, is you show love by hanging shit. Yeah.

Yeah. We've discussed that in an earlier episode. we discussed it in an early episode in youth. I remember talking about. Getting quite upset with Because

I was sensitive. Sammy, episode nine or thereabouts. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I, I

mean, I was brought up in a tough school of getting a lot of shit hung on me by my parents and giving a lot of shit back and then going out into the world. But also your mates did it too. Yeah. But let's not get too sidetracked the, the. The example she used was, imagine an overweight boy of 13 or something, and he just goes, fuck it. And posts a photo of himself in his bathers at the pool. Yeah. Now would that, yeah.

And Ali, just before you answer that, I just want to hasten to add, for anyone who's not familiar with Caitlin Moran's work or this latest book or the podcast interview she just did with Mia Friedman on the Mamma Mia Network, um, recommend you listen to it to make more sense of this episode, by the way, and we'll link to it. But... I just want to point out, they're not just saying boys don't get support on social media.

Well, in social media, yeah, like, I mean, there's usually a bit of attention from, in more recent years, I will qualify, from men. You know, you get like them sliding to your DMs with just little fire emoji or whatever and you're like, yeah, cool. And then, but, but absolutely the vast majority of any photo I've ever posted. The support has been from other women and they're like, you look amazing. Or you're looking so happy or like, they're genuinely happy for you.

and that's largely the appropriate thing, you know, you and I, Joe, we're not going to rush in to comment publicly on, on a woman's, um, Selfie.

Oh, I might do what Ali said, like the thirsty dads at Ali's school and like slide in and make a comment and have some angle, you know.

And that's because that's the thing. If you, I had, I would have absolutely no issue telling my friend that she's hot and she's this. But even if she's married right, but if you are yeah publicly commenting Oh my god, you look so hot on someone else's wife or like or husband like yeah It is why is that perceived to be different? Why? Yeah,

but yeah, like I think what Sam said it wasn't An interview about social media, that's just one example. It's the visibility of it that makes it so important. Zooming out to the whole thing, like what are the, what are the power dynamics between men and women, where have we ended up to? I found the thing, the interview a bit condescending because by the end they were talking about men as if they're like quaint little pets, like, it wasn't, isn't it cute?

It's funny to get. It's funny to get stoned and um, uh, look at, look at my husband's balls and just admire how strange and odd and just validate them and I'm like, that's kind of nice. It was a mixture of That slightly condescending, but there was a certain intimacy and respect in it. Yeah, I didn't mind it, but it was odd to get a pat on the head as a

bloke, it felt like. 50ish year old feminists. Yeah, there's a very... They've reached a point of feminism... They're both very successful. Sure, being feminists. And they've reached a point of feminism where they basically look in a condescending way at men as like poor creatures with no idea in the world.

I don't know that, because I can't say I'm Mia Friedman's biggest fan, but,

so imagine if you had a movement called feminism to respond to incredible entrenched misogyny and sexism, but then you had a generation come through after some of the biggest wins in feminism, so people under the age of 20. As Sam said before, imagine if you didn't see the Chico roll, Chico roll commercials in the 80s in the fish and chip shop and women sexualized in that way, not in a positive way, just as objects

for men. Or, or, or female teachers in the 70s striking for equal pay. Like it's so, it's so recent. It's quite, yeah. But on another level, that's ancient

history. If you have no lived experience of that, and all you see is this girl power stuff. Yeah. It seems ridiculous on the face of it to respond to that. with some kind of like, men ism or something, response to feminism. I don't think we need that. and I do wonder, like,

Yes, it's possible, but like, I mean, they sort of, they did touch on, Oh, men are still the beneficiaries of the patriarchy while they're simultaneously also victims of it. So they do have a certain amount of privilege. Like you said, it's the world's tiniest violin. How can you feel sorry for, you know, People who are benefiting from this system, but they're also simultaneously acknowledging that there are parts of it that are negatively affecting them. And we need tools to fight those things.

That's yeah, that's right. And Caitlin's not just making, I mean, look, my number one criticism of the book, um, not having read it, but just based on what she's saying that the central element of the thesis is the critique is operating at the level of discourse, mainly, but she does quote statistics about how men and boys, um, fare more poorly in certain areas and the statistics are like quite Persuasive, when you set them out a certain way, and I'm not saying I doubt that case. Like, uh,

university degrees, uh,

victims of violence,

suicide rates,

incarceration, suicide. Yeah, that's good. That's concrete stuff. I think that's, I think we should try and get into a bit of the meat of that a bit as well.

And there's another one which she didn't quote because it does vary a lot between countries, but workforce participation for men is now lower than it is for women. Yeah, and that is a very serious... So

can we declare victory for feminism at this

point? Uh, no, because, yeah, but, but

it's... Men still tend to control boardrooms. Yes. Political positions and control. The gender pay gap is very real. Pretty much control all the weapons of mass

destruction in the world. This is why I was, I was disappointed that Caitlin mainly focused at... The level of doing a discourse analysis, and she's basically saying the discourse has been a bit one sided and it has produced a reactionary politics, uh, at the level of discourse, and maybe also it's... Sorry, can

you define discourse? I don't really know what you mean. Okay, so Marxists

are more interested in economics and who owns what and class and all that stuff, and if we do an analysis of, gender in terms of wealth... What are we going to find, and it's going to vary a lot by age and by country and the rest of it. So that's the main thing.

at like 13 to, I wrote a novel and then went working for, uh, that's right. Nme, like, yeah. She, yeah. Yeah. She,

so I would write writer, I would write a slightly different book, but I, I still think her book's a reasonable contribution to make. And she's come at it from a very personal angle, which is just to notice that the way boys and girls are talked about is so very different. And I think that is a useful unit of analysis. The discourse on gender is very visible and audible at the moment. So that's a good place to start.

economic terms there is a gender pay gap still, right? Yes. In most countries.

Yes, but you have to break it down by occupation. And yeah, like so it gets incredibly complex.

Why? Why can't you just give me a simple number?

Because it's not illustrative of what's going on in every workplace. I just want

simple numbers, Sam. Well, the problem

is, like, that you talk about careers that women have traditionally gravitated towards and those being underpaid industries, which

skews the data. Or, women enter an industry... And then pay rates within that industry decline.

Or they take time out from work to have babies so that they pay stalls. Or they work part time to be a caregiver. But when

we talk about the gender pay gap, we have to include a couple of invisible things. Capitalism only, cares about money, right? And we only measure things in relation to money. And so, what happens when... You fail to acknowledge the growing number of men that are not making it into the workforce at all. So then that puts the gender pay gap in a slightly different light. So if you bring the men that are earning zero money into the equation, how does it change?

basically what's on Twitter,

what's on Instagram, what's on Twitter,

in the papers. Okay. So can we agree? I was being facetious before. But feminism... is, has, still has gains to make and it's an unstoppable force.

of that. There was a little bit of that. But I, I, like, she primarily came from, because she is a feminist writer and had written how to be a woman and how to be a that. Yeah. And so, you know, and when she was going on tours for her book tours and stuff and realizing, you know, when she was talking not just at girls schools and in front of women, but like in front of boys as well, that, yeah, there was this discourse where. You know, what about boys? And that's how it's come about. So but...

to the response.

Yeah. Basically. I think it's, there's some onus on people, me and Sam's age, actually, to provide an alternative that's not Andrew

Tate. No, it's really true, Jo. And I've, there's a dad who's reached out to me recently, and he said... I really feel like people like you and me need to start posting videos on YouTube, like not just to make money, like not to do that at all as a public service, like who's my son going to look up to? Yeah. And like, it can't come from me.

Well, that's the thing, yeah, like it's a bit of a vacuum at the moment and like that's where these, yeah, the Taits and Jordan Petersons are all stepping in and rather than having, yeah, like really visible, positive, Pictures of masculinity and what that can look like.

Yeah, I think it becomes about what's forbidden too. Yes. Because you're always going to want to rebel. Yes. So, I'll tell you my little Jordan Peterson story. Maybe five or six years ago, and Sam would say, remember that I am economically fragile, paying child support, like a couple of, you know, like I'm kind of on the edge all the time of financial disaster.

Yeah, no, you're very much in the precarious.

Plus, I'm a straight white guy, pretty straight down the line, standard issue, straight white guy, right? So just remember that as context, and then a guy who you are

prime candidate for, uh, masculinist, fascist discourse. Sure, just setting up the

context, but like, prime candidate for some of this alt right stuff, right? Very much. Even though I was raised very strict socialist, hard left.

Well who's, who do you think is voting for, what's her name in France? It's all the old union dudes that have all gotten

shafted by Macron. this story can be illustrative of how this stuff maybe works in a slightly older demographic than teams. Marine Le Pen, yeah. Because I've never seen an Andrew Tate video, I really don't want to be forced to go and watch one. I've read a little bit about

it. No, don't pollute your brain with that,

seriously. I don't, I don't really want to know, like I don't... It's yuck. hate women, and I don't want to... You know, say women are responsible for rape. So that stuff's just way out of bounds and I'm not interested. It sounds upsetting that teenage boys seem to be interested, but what I'm trying to explain is maybe where some of this reaction comes from and this wanting to transgress, right? Yeah, sure. So this actor guy I work with in the film industry, he...

Yeah, he's not getting stuck into women.

It's just like, make your bed. I saw it described as, like, advice to mum. That's right, stand up straight. Yeah. Put your shoulders back, make your bed, there's other stuff in there, but it's, there's nothing too alarming in there. Then I could jump on my GripChat with my old friends from, um...

read? Also, they haven't, they haven't read it at that point. They have

no idea, like, they have no idea what

they're responding to the other

stuff that he's all these... These things.

But they're also responding to a genuine alarm and like a growing number of reports of like him doing these sellout live shows like fairly early after the book. Yeah, and after that, whatever, in the And the audience at his shows were not. It wasn't entirely men at first. There were loads of women who were on board with the message and were actually recommending the book to their sons and, you know, male colleagues and so on.

Yeah, because if you go on, at that point, if you went onto YouTube, you go back and watch his, his lectures on psychology, they're brilliant. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, it's like 200 hours on YouTube of him talking about, PRJ and, and all that. That's right. Like the history of psychology. He wasn't that shit. And in a way that kind of... Hurts your brain as it opens it up. It's really good shit. Right?

responding to part of the largest

part of his, but that was a turning point in my life where I was like, oh shit, what do I do? Do I stop reading this book? And I, instead, I thought, well, fuck you. Like fuck, you should telling me not to read this. Because I was somewhat looking, my dad had been dead for 20 years, I didn't have anyone telling me how to be a man, and Jordan Peterson...

respect. Have some self respect, yeah. Take responsibility.

The problem, Sam, of course, is you take... Uh, have some self respect a bit further and it's like become a fascist, right? And you only have to turn the knob a little

bit. So, like, my psychologist would say, like, that even the worst people sometimes are capable of good things. And... The thing is, we're so quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but he, yeah, he can still have a few good and, like I said, practical ideas that, you know, people will see value in and actually find really helpful.

Yeah, and there's been like incel terrorists

and stuff, right? Yeah, so obviously some of, yeah, that's right, this is all unfolding, we have to remember, this is all unfolding in the context of, you know, yeah, the extremist incel, you know, inciting each other to commit violence and so on, so we have to keep all that in mind, that of a kind of early stage.

that's why it's back on us, Sam, because it's the condescending place that Mia and Kaitlyn are coming from doesn't help. It doesn't help boys. There's, there's nothing for a 15 year old boy really in that podcast. Oh no, see, I'll... Whereas, whereas we have a chance as men to actually be like, well, like, we like women. We're attracted to women. We're friends with women. Okay. We sleep with women. We have children with women.

There's still a place, though, for women to raise the issue, as far as, in the context not just of, yeah, being the partners, but also like the mothers of these boys. I think it's, you know, they're well within their rights to say... You know, these are people we care about that we're, and

I mean, these are feminists who are actually worrying about the problem of men and boys. I would put it to you that most feminists aren't very concerned with the problems of men and boys at all. And Caitlyn certainly has had a lot of the end. Aww.

Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, look, there were, there were elements of the, look, elements of the, I think, I've got some stylistic critique, as does, um, Ali. Yeah, listen,

I mean, let's look at, most people want... Listen to that podcast. So it's the ideas we

need to focus on. I'll give them both a pass on this conversation because despite like a couple of little gripes I have, the essential thesis is like we can uphold that and we can declare it to be somewhat useful. And I think also I think it's absolutely critical that this opening salvo in what will be a long ongoing conversation that was already happening in an unhealthy way, what Caitlin Moran is saying.

It's not even left right. It's this No. Like you said, it's just cultural what's on Twitter. It's not even left right. It's just like, what's the vibe? What's in the culture? She even says

it in the podcast, there are some easy things we can do. Well, she talks about role models, right? She says, we don't even, she even says, we don't even have to do this through politics. We can just do this through culture. And that was very, very revealing. This is not a radical platform at all. They are just suggesting a slight change to the discourse. They don't want to actually do anything more

radical than that. Like, if I, I had to think about this, like, what are the male role models now, if I wanted to give. A 15 year old boy, a male role model. I would probably actually point to someone like Pat Cummins, captain of the Australian Test cricket team, not only because he's an amazing cricketer and a handsome blue eyed boy, but he's also very like outspoken on climate change, he's

Yeah, but what about, yeah, like as Sam said, the boys who have

absolutely no interest in Sure, but what about the boys who do play sport?

Or David, or David Pocock for that matter. But, but

hang on, doing a bit of what they did, what about the boys who do like cricket? Can they have role

time? So I haven't been listening to Bill for a few years now, but I'll say that he's very, very good on, he's got a lot of female listeners, his shows are half half, he's got listeners from every demographic basically, and he does well in so called red states and so called blue states, that's one of the things I like about him. And He really triangulates a lot of stuff. To me, he's a bellwether. He's very good on the contradictions of capitalism.

a good nuance, it's a nuanced take, which is

rare. And basically he upsets white middle class women, and black women applaud him, so... I like that. Now, I'll say, I hate to

see you happy, Sam, but I hate it when you got something that's just your own thing. That's right. But the thing that Bill really, I hate it when you have a

podcast, they hate it when you've got a thing that you're just enjoying doing and it's nothing to do with them. Yeah, that's right. Um, so Bill,

Bill, I can't say that. No, Bill can say that. I'd be

scared to say that. But if I had a wife, you know, that's true. That's true. And you should be, but he, but he makes a point. He makes a lot of good points. Uh, and he acknowledges the failings that men have. Right. But the best thing on his podcast was the agony art section he does on the, on the Thursday show, I think, where he'll answer an email, uh, or maybe even a few from women that are in pain, from men that are in pain.

Yeah, and I think that's actually a much more interesting discussion than the one they were having on that podcast because it actually puts women in the frame a little bit like, are you guys maybe getting some of this a little bit wrong? God, you can't say that because women are fucking perfect.

That's right. Well, and so I think that there's a, there's a, I should

probably let Ali speak.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Well, there's, I think there's a patronizing. He has

that joke about like, I make all these mistakes, but clearly my wife is just. Preserved, you know, behind glass as the perfect human who never gets anything wrong. And yeah, God, that I can relate to that from having partners. It's like, what's this double standard here where

I get pummeled for everything I get wrong. Putting women up on a pedestal and then being patriarchy, right? Yeah, exactly. Because we're imperfect creatures. We're all imperfect to be imperfect is human. Yeah, we don't get it right all the time. Sometimes women and, you know, even like watching, you know, the news this week and watching some really famous women who've utterly fucked up. And... Are you talking about Lizzo? Yeah. And it's... Did she do it? I don't know. I don't know.

So you don't want to be on a pedestal? Come on, you love it up there. I've never been on one, I don't even know what the views like. No, you know

what, it's actually, it's exhausting. When someone's got this like, perception of you that's, you know, a projection of their fantasy, and it is absolutely impossible to live up to, and It might feel nice

here and there, but ultimately it gets you on the back end. It

absolutely does. And so there's no room to make a mistake. There's no room to, to fuck up and yeah, like I said, we all fuck up and I've certainly been in that position before. And you

better keep up with the hair removal if you want to keep up

with the goddess thing. Like, you know, and there's like, speaking about the Barbie, like, you know, that, um, America Ferrera's, uh, you know, monologue, which has got, you know, which, you know, it's talking about, you know. All of the things we're expected to be all the time and being on that pedestal is actually really fucking hard and exhausting.

We'll save that for our Barbie episode. Once Sam does, I think we will genuinely do a Barbie episode because I think I actually need to re watch that film because what I need you to woman splain to me, Ali, is how do I suffer or not benefit from the patriarchy?

Well, I mean, there's one way of looking at it, which is that it's a relatively small number of men owning all the stuff and defining the conditions in which the rest of us spend our lives. So,

Ali? Yeah, no, it's, it's a, yeah, very concise definition, yeah.

And there are some women that are members of the patriarchy. Yeah, absolutely. Like Gina Reinhardt.

Yeah. Hang on, women can be members of the patriarchy?

Absolutely. They can benefit

from it. becomes, the concept breaks down when you tell me a woman can be a part of the patriarchy. Because then I don't have a concept of what the patriarchy is. Basically,

well this is Marxist feminism.

What you're describing is uh, like oligarchy, yes.

Capitalism. This is a class based analysis. Fundamentally.

Patriarchy is class based, isn't it gender based? I mean, come on.

But you can't, you can't have it without class, without

race, those things do need to be the only person listening to this who doesn't understand exactly what is meant by patriarchy. Look, we

have to do Feminism 101 here, but like, it, I do have, like, some ability to talk about it because I've done some of the reading, but The second wave of feminism was basically proposing a class based position for women as a whole. So it was just a simple kind of innovation there to just say women as a whole are like a second class and, you know, what follows from that and the politics that followed. And so a lot of useful things were accomplished through that analysis.

What wave of feminism are we up to now?

3, 3. 5, whatever.

Right. Yeah. And you've read your feminist theory too, Ali? Yeah. And is it common amongst you and your friends to have a decent theoretical understanding of feminism or some of them are just more vibe?

Uh, I think there's a mix, a mix. Yeah. But no, definitely, you know, I'd say women are, well, within my, you know, the context of my friends, pretty across it, yeah.

So what's the project right now? What's the priority for feminism? Is it pay still, or is it education, or is it cultural domination, or getting hold

of the mental load, it's the mental load, and we were going to talk about that as another topic, but the exhaustion of being, you know, a woman. Again, similarly, like being on that pedestal, the expectation that you have to have it all, do it all, and have it all without, yeah. Without the capacity or the supports to be able to actually...

And what happens if you just went on strike from the mental load? Well, everything, well, it'd

be like in, was it in Iceland? It all just fell apart and so you'd have some meaningful changes. Um, yeah.

Because, because the ultimate, the original gender pay gap was the unpaid work women do, right? And so we, we... This is, this is what capitalism does. So that's when, that's when you said we, it keeps railroad us in to certain narrow areas

of debate that's

So, no, it's, so it wasn't really a victory, was it? Yes. Well, that's right to, well, to the, to the extent, to the extent that, let's say to people that happened to be a heterosexual xx and XY with, you know, uh, kids and jobs, right? They're both in employment, so they're both.

Well done. And, and, and, but I suppose like we're still very much where this is. The difference is that, that, that split is still not, and there's a lot of evidence to support that there is not, that split is not equal. But for a variety

of reasons, you get your two weeks in Bali though, where someone else does all the housework and you get along really well for that.

It's not, that's just it. It's a window into how life could be. What's really needed is not two weeks in Bali with third world slaves. What's needed is. An easier life on average and a better work life balance. We need a three day, four day working week.

I wanted to say Sam,

what could benefit most women is what could benefit most men, like it's as simple as

I think we'll wrap it up soon, but um, I wanted to say something you said to me a while ago, cause you and I, as soon as you say the word Marxist, I kind of tune out cause I feel like you're trapped in the 19th century and it's like not that relevant. I'm a pretty retro dude. But something you said a while ago is that to understand the world you decide to understand economic history.

The highest support for it is among the upper middle class. Well, it's

that kind of Guardian Saturday paper kind of thing, right? It is. And I, surprisingly to myself, but I have ended up not that. We're all voting yes, by the way. Yeah, I'm voting yes, of course. Like, God, we fucked up. Whatever we can do to make it better. It's pretty simple, but, I'm not in that discourse anymore, uh, I'm very much a working class person, and,

yeah, it's about, I'm absolutely frothing my dacks right now, but anyway. About what? Oh, just everything I'm hearing, yeah, anyway. But

it's like So, to tie it back into that podcast we all listened to and that book and stuff, I think I'm going to agree with you that it probably needs to focus more on the political, the concrete and looking at that stuff like, are there too many men in jail? Are there too many men committing suicide? Are there too many unemployed men? And then

you don't stop there. What you do is you go, are there too many people in prison? Why are there so many people in prison? Why do we have prisons? Yeah, but

if you go too far,

then it becomes too abstract. I'm not saying we can ever do without, like, some form of incarceration will probably be necessary sadly, but the systems of genuine oppression that are being built up currently around the world are no joke.

So I'm going to say, I've decided from being somewhat conservative, from being a conservative centrist, I think. My economic circumstances lead me to having to be open to more radical... Yes.

Otherwise it's fascism, bro. I'm telling you like, that's it. We either make big changes and create more justice or we're going to get fascism. It's as simple as that.

As will, I think the changes that come about with climate change, where it's like, are they going to go and force me to work when it's 43 degrees? Fucking oath they are. And in the film industry, the answer will be yes. In the building industry, no, they knock off at 35 degrees because they have a union. So like climate change comes back to that stuff as well. as well, actually. So it's, it's, it's been interesting spending over a year in this dialogue with you, Sam, and with you, Ali.

on stuff. But I also think you're an excellent weather vane. Like you do point. Where the winds are blowing like I see it. Well, I'm

glad I didn't back down on exploring Jordan Peterson And then I Jordan Peterson himself went somewhat off the rails Yeah, cool completely ended up in a coma in Russia trying to get over a benzo addiction Well, yeah,

but but he got destroyed by the algorithm

He did. Yeah, he did.

Yeah, really fair question. but you know what I think would be interesting? Let's hear it from Ali. What?

Yeah. What I want to hear from Ali is, you've got a teenage boy. When you look around the cultural landscape, who do you see as role models?

Ooh, I think like when you say sort of gentle masculinity or sensitive masculinity. And you know, and if we're talking about like celebrity sort of, you know,

yeah, I guess it needs to be someone, at least some public profile, you know, like they

mentioned Keanu

Reeves. Yeah. Well, yeah, well, that's what she's saying. Like Keanu Reeves, the Pedro Pascal's like that this, you know, sort of more gentle, masculinity that I feel like. Particularly they would still

throw you around a bit in the bedroom, right? You still got to have a bit of bulk and a bit of like, no, it's,

it's not, it's not that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's actually, I think it's really finding people that you can individually identify with. And that, I mean, that goes for everybody is being able to have a role model that, you know, that, that suits the things that you, that you value. And so, you know, in the context of my son and what I would want for him and. You know, I would like to see more gay, you know, sensitive, you know, gentle role models out there to, you know, that he can look up to

and... What about someone like a Harry Styles or whatever?

Oh, he loves Harry Styles. We all love Harry Styles. So, so,

so... But Harry's a more feminine masculinity...

No, but Harry's a bit of a... Blank Cypher. Really.

I don't know who he is other than see photos of him. Exactly.

Yeah. No, yeah, no, I think, yeah, but actually having people who like, I think that's where Pedro Pascal and like the, the fandom around him has really, particularly after The Last of Us and seeing like the way he speaks. Isn't it like daddy stuff though? There's a bit of that, that, that daddy energy, but at the same time, it's, you know, I mean, that's just more people thirsting after him.

outside of, uh, Hollywood actors?

Well, I was going to say, there's Taika Waititi, um, before he, like... just if you just hear him talk about like growing up with a single mom and like stuff like that like he's really like he he's very he's very good on he's and he's a gentle but also like funny and relatable but i actually think we need closer to home like yeah um and it's good to start with the public sphere you know the media sphere

and it's got to be someone everyone has access to it's going to be a role model but if we're

also talking about yeah like people within his life i look at his dad who is a really excellent example of, you know, what it is to be a man. And even though they are very different in a lot of ways, like I think his dad's always really... Reinforce the message that there is not one way to be a man and whatever you, that looks like to you, we will support you and love you for what that is.

I'm sensing a huge like dearth of anyone in the public sphere other than a couple of Hollywood actors or pop stars. Like, I don't know if there ever was. You know, like, I probably should never have looked up to Jack Kerouac if I hadn't been his contemporary, he was an incredibly flawed person, all the beats were, but when I was 16... I got handed on the road and read that book and that changed me, you know, or I have Bob Dylan to this day.

incredible artist. Also the role models you need change through your life. Yes. And so, yeah. So for me at one point it is Dylan and Kerouac.

And you can still have Dylan and Kerouac as a 16 year old now and they probably do.

Yeah. And like, it was good to have Ginsberg in the mix because he was like, he gave me a window into something. And like, yeah. And he helped me understand my own sexuality a bit more, but like, there's, but there's so much beyond just like the radical icons of the past or the present, moving into my. So, even in my early thirties, I needed role models that helped me move my career forward. A lot of them were actually

women. Yeah, and Che Guevara's not that helpful with that. No, that's right. But when you're 21 and smoking bongs, and, oh, I had like a Che Guevara banner from Cuba hung in my window in... Yeah. A flat in North Melbourne. That's right. That

is the most Melbourne thing. It was

so cool. It had horses on it. It was cool. But like Che Guevara was one, but I didn't know what he really did. I just knew he was cool and a revolutionary. I had one really famous cool photo of him and that was enough. You know, you're not

super deep at trotting. But you're sensing an opportunity. To like, cause you know, Shai,

Shai Govar is not going to be a politician, it's not going to be Albo, is it? No,

I mean, maybe it is for some blokes, but like, I don't get that feeling.

Centrists don't become

icons. And in this country, it's tended to be cricketers and people like that. Or Bob Hawke,

I mean, Bob Hawke. Bob Hawke. See, in the 80s you had a Bob Hawke. You don't have that now. You have a very beige, yeah, you have a very beige

elbow doing the same job. I would say, I would say Max Chan Lamatha, good male role model in lots of ways from, um, good

Max. He's not going to get anywhere with a hyphenated name, mate. Yeah, whatever. Um,

and but, you know, fair enough. But no, there is an opportunity and a responsibility, uh, here, Joe. So maybe it's something we can look into more. Uh, but there's a couple of things that I've, not said so far. So I couldn't quite like I've, I welcome Caitlin's contribution to the conversation. I think it's very important. And I think it's it's going to do a lot of good. Wait till she hears about ours. Yeah. Actually, no, I'll, I'll send this to her. I'll send this to her.

She will not listen

Yeah. Anyway, you never know. You never know. But like the. She's done a lot of useful stuff already, and there's more to come, obviously, and a lot of women are going to really continue to look up to her, some are going to feel disappointed by this, um, but I think a lot of them will come on board eventually. But I was trying to put my finger on like, I was trying to put aside all my little gripes.

I would say it's almost a feeling of men aren't really wanted.

Yeah. And the only time we're going to discuss your feelings is when they've become a problem for us. And then I was thinking about this and I was like, Oh, this is the inverse of the emotional regime that was in place. A hundred years ago, like that's what she's describing. Women's feelings didn't matter except as they related to the prerogatives, well being and desires of men. Oh man.

Wait till you see Barbie. It's going to blow your mind.

And women's feelings, if they went against, if they got in the way of what men wanted, hysterectomy. If they were in line with what men wanted, great, but irrelevant, essentially, at that point. And if they don't affect what men want either way, then not worth discussing. But I think maybe that's where we've ended up a little bit in the, maybe in the middle class discourse. It might be different in the outer suburbs or in certain communities.

work. And so, yeah, the, the issue is like, yeah, if your feelings don't matter also within the context of the patriarchy, that it's not okay to express your feelings if you are having them. It's not okay. Yeah. So it's a

double edged... They're your problem and you're alone to deal with them. And where does that lead?

Gravitating towards Andrew Tate's and that sort of stuff, because yeah, you can't express your feelings because of the patriarchy, but also, yeah, your feelings don't matter

because of the patriarchy. That's right. Or you go, or you externalize them and put them onto others and seek to make them victims. And that's obviously not okay. And so, but the second thing that is like, Caitlin and Mia are not.

and identity. And zooming right out, the reality is that we're loving awareness and the illusion is that we're separate. Different

individuals and that illusion creates so much harm.

And yeah. And the discourse, the hyper identitarian discourse that took over the progressive left is focus on race, gender, and

stuff. And it's created a lot of perverse outcomes.

Like it created this, it's reinforced the illusion that we're separate individuals, uh, at war with each other. That's right. And it's not true. Like we're actually just one. It's a whole thing happening at one time. Suffering, and suffering a lot, under the illusion of being alone, separate, vulnerable, and at war with each other based on skin, gender, class, all of that stuff, right? So that's the big Zoom ride out. But yeah, I think that's probably

Oh look, I, I think they are and they aren't. Like, we, but there's a lot we can, yeah, like a long way to go.

Some of them are doing far too well for themselves. Yes. And some of them are in absolute dire straits. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like, and

that's just not okay. No, and we, and we all need to, we all need tools to, to dismantle the

patriarchy. That's right. We all do.

Alright, well, I'm looking forward to our Barbie episode where... Ali, you can woman splain the patriarchy to me at greater length. And Sam, can Sam splain it to me?

No, no, no. In the Barbie EP, I'll be given a time quota. And Ali will be given a minimum time quota.

Yeah. It's a funny thing, because it's not a feigned ignorance. Like, I have some, not emotional, I struggle with the emotions, I'm working on that in therapy. But, I have some cognitive horsepower. But then there's some things that I come across, like the patriarchy, which I read and I talk to people and I try and understand it. It just doesn't get in, and I don't then walk out. I don't walk out onto the street in Thornbury and see the patriarchy everywhere. I don't.

it's so insidious. Yeah, so it's operations are

invisible. I think it doesn't have to be a feigned ignorance. I think it's a good discussion because you two get it and I don't. So I think hopefully for the listeners, it can be something we come back to. Um, because what I'm not questioning is that everyone else is right and they, they know what it is. I'm just saying, I don't fucking know what it is. And I only ever knew.

we're operating in well This is what Gramsci would call false consciousness where you're like you know, you're like the worker that doesn't realize you're underpaid And you're like the bloke who doesn't realize that You've got this tiny, you've got this like, little bit of pointless privilege, but look at the dis privilege that, like, that comes with it, that you're ignoring, and that the, the same system that's like keeping down your wife or partner is At least indirectly, if not directly, also

consequence. And when I look at the line, it's like my grandfather mercilessly beat my father. My father mercilessly belittled me instead of beating me. But with my daughters, I wouldn't belittle or beat them. And that's what's happened. That's how we're getting better. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as a society, you, I mean,

there, there is good news here that the patriarchy does not have the stranglehold at

once. Yeah. And I agree with you. I wanna kind of be role, I'm terrified for my teenage daughters just 'cause of the stats around self-harm and, and yeah. That's not great depression. Yeah. So I want to try and be a role model for them too. But the best I can come up with is to be a pretty stable, steady, calm, sober presence. Big time. Right. Big time. Um, but, so actually my work won't be really with.

teacher.

Yeah But there's a lot Yeah, I hope Bron who sent us this idea. Thank you for that, Bron. Yeah, really, cheers. We all kind of, sorry if you're a massive Mia fan, we all found her a bit annoying, but there was a lot of good ideas in there. Joe has a crush on her though, too, so. And yeah, Bron, I'd be interested to hear your feedback because, um. Yeah, Bron's a woman who I think has some really interesting perspectives on this. Oh, I want

to know what she thinks about Caitlyn Monroe. Yeah,

I think she's an older woman who thinks men have copped it a bit hard in the last 20 years, even though she's a feminist. So,

well, it is, it is often older women who are not, that are no longer in the thick of it with child rearing and balancing work and all of that. They tend to be able to see it a little more easily. Sorry,

Bron, if I'm putting words in your mouth, but that's always the impression I got from you was that you have a... A bit of a sympathetic view of, yeah, yeah.

I was just going to say, yeah, like when you say in the thick of it, you know, like the things that the second wave feminists were fighting for were like, you know, you know, reproductive rights, equal pay, you know, or being Access to the workplace. All those sorts of things. They've fundamentally achieved those things within their lifetime and it's now these other things. So, yeah.

And, of course, the second wave that is still among us would often be the first to point out that the benefits they managed to win were not an unalloyed benefit to women after all. And there were other feminists at the time who were saying, we need to go way past workforce participation. We need to go to ownership of the means of production, and there were people saying that from the beginning.

Bron. See you next week, guys.

See ya. See ya.