5 Predictions for Nubank 2.0 (116)

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Welcome, welcome everybody. My name is Jeff Tausen and this is Asia Tech Strategy. And the topic for today, five predictions for New Bank 2.0. So this is about the Brazilian digital bank that's making so much news. Huge number of users, 47 plus million. It's one of the most aggressive digital banks we're seeing anywhere. And while it is out of my standard area of Asia, China. It is, in my opinion, a pretty clear copy of Ant Financial. And in fact, today, which we could call New Bank 1.0, looks a lot like Ant Financial around 2016. So I think based on that, we can make some pretty solid, hopefully, predictions about what's gonna happen next. And I'm calling that New Bank 2.0. And I think in the next couple years, there's a good chance we're gonna see these five things happen. and they are going to significantly change the value. Although what is priced in at the moment might be a little crazy. But that will be the topic for today. For those of you who are subscribers, I sent you two decent sized articles about New Bank this week. I think that's probably about as far as I'm going to take it because that was pretty much constrained to the business model, which I feel like I understand. But beyond that, you start getting into a lot of the Brazilian marketplace regulations and that I don't think I am particularly knowledgeable. So that's about as far as I'll go on that. Next on the list is I'm going to start talking about Web 3.0, distributed ledgers, blockchain, which is pretty huge. I mean, I've been focused a lot on this the last couple of weeks. Really important. I think we're going to see a whole new wave of business models coming up. And the biggest target arguably for these business models, they are not trying to disrupt traditional businesses. They're trying to disrupt platform businesses. So they're going right at Facebook, Amazon, YouTube, and all these giants. So that's gonna be kind of interesting to take apart. Anyways, that's coming up in the next week. Let's see, other stuff. Book number two is supposed to be out this week if everything goes well. So part one, part two, book one, book two of Motes and Marathons is gonna be up. Other stuff, no I think that's it. Standard disclaimer, nothing in this podcast or my writing or website is investment advice. The numbers and information from me and any guests may be incorrect. Views and opinions expressed may no longer be relevant or accurate. Overall, investing is risky. This is not investment advice. Do your own research. And with that, let's get into the topic. Now, as always, there's a couple key concepts for today. The two concepts, which are always listed in the show notes, are payment platforms and complementary platforms. Payment platforms I've talked about quite a bit. It's one of the five platform business model types that I often point to. It can be particularly powerful. It's simple. I mean, it's a utility. It's sort of a basic function, but what it is very, very good at is it is naturally viral. If I want to send you money, you have to sign up to receive the money. So the usage of the product gets you more users. So it's a very powerful way to build a user base. Second to that, you also get quite a lot of engagement because, I mean, in terms of stuff people do frequently, they don't book hotels very often. But you know. Probably the most frequent thing people do on a daily basis is they check their messages and they do payments. So it's a high frequency type of platform, a lot of engagement, and it's a very good way to build a network of users. So what Ant Financial has done, and which I'll talk about, Newbank has done, is they've used payment as the foundation. That's the core foundational platform. It got them their users. When New Bank goes into a new country, just like when Ant goes into a new country, they start with payment, and then they build on top of it. So that's payment platforms. The second idea, complementary platforms. This is when you have multiple platform business models and they all help each other. And they can help each other in various ways. They can definitely share users. So if you have a high frequency platform that's very good at getting users like payment, you can then put a second platform next to it like a marketplace that maybe has low frequency activity and they help each other. The customer acquisition costs go down, they share data, you can start to bundle. Often it's just about money. One platform supports the other one financially, but one platform is great, two platforms is better, three is even better and so on. And financial before they got sort of shut down by the government. Well, they didn't get shut down, but they got dialed back a lot. They were building three complementary platforms, which I've written quite a lot about on the webpage. So those are the two concepts for today, payment platforms and complementary platforms. Now typically I like payment platforms. I think they're very, very powerful for the reasons I just mentioned. They're also very good at going cross border. They can be regional. They can be global. MasterCard. Visa, PayPal, Alipay, WeChat Pay, MoneyGram. I mean, for many, many decades, we've been seeing payment platforms be very, very powerful business models. And there's a reason Warren Buffett has invested in like MasterCard and Visa and American Express. I'm not sure if he's still in them, but he was in them for a long time. And that has been my standard approach, like. of business models I really like. That's always been one of them. However, there is so much new technology coming out in crypto, payments, blockchain, that this is really becoming harder for me to predict what's gonna happen. It would not surprise me at all if the traditional payment companies and credit cards all start getting disrupted very quickly. I mean, that is what crypto is trying to do, and that's what a lot of people are working on. So there's a lot of just pure technological change happening in this space right now. So that's a big asterisk on that business model. And I think Warren Buffett, I'm probably quoting him wrong, but someone had asked him, what do you think about payment? And he kind of said, more or less, I can't predict what's going to happen. There's too much moving. That's my assessment of what he said. That's not an exact quote. OK, those are the two concepts for today. OK, let's start with some of just the basics of New Bank. I am not a New Bank expert by any means, but I think I understand the business model. It's a nice, simple, understandable play. They basically say they are a digital bank. That's it. Let's take what a traditional bank is, and let's just do a digital version. That's why I kind of call that New Bank 1.0, because we saw the same thing happen. in let's say travel agencies 20 years ago, where we had travel agencies, you walk into the store, you book your trip to Aruba or wherever. And then these Expedia and Ctrip in Asia and all of these Booking.com emerged. And they basically took the exact same business and just made a digital version of it. And that was a very powerful move. You get rid of all the stores, you get rid of the travel agents. You can look at everything in your app or on the web at that point. I mean it was just a digital version which is sort of 1.0. But they actually did a little bit more than that. They didn't just digitize that. They also turned it into a platform business model. Traditionally travel agencies were just pipelines, service businesses. You go in, you see the person, you book your thing, you pay, whatever. Once you digitize an industry, which is what these companies did with travel agencies, that will often enable the emergence of a platform business model. And that's sure enough what happened. Expedia and booking.com, these are not linear businesses. These are marketplace platforms. So one, they went digital. They got rid of the physical footprint and all of that. And then two, they also went a bit further and they turned it into a platform. That's pretty much what New Bank has doing. done in sort of version 1.0. They took a traditional bank, they said, let's make a digital version. Oh, and at the same time, we're gonna turn it into a platform. That's the foundation. And you can see that with the way they're behaving and the way they're pricing and how they're acting very differently than banks do, partly because banks aren't building platforms, but they are. So they are doing services at a very low price. they're giving away other services for free because they're going for users, engagement, and data. They're building a platform. Actually, they're building a couple of them. Okay, so here's some basics for them. They start out, they wanna build this digital bank founded in 2013 by three people, an American, a Brazilian, and a Colombian, which is kind of interesting. American Edward Wiblay, I'm probably saying his name wrong, Brazilian Christina, definitely saying her name wrong. Junquera, that's whenever I start looking in Portuguese in Brazil, I start speaking in Spanish, which is totally stupid, but I always do it. And Columbia David Velez, okay, so at least I pronounced his name right. And the story goes, which may be just lore, maybe not true, but one of them was trying to open a bank account in Brazil, goes into a bank, does the whole process. For those of you who have never been through this, I don't know how to explain it to you. It is like one of the worst customer experiences you can ever have. Not all banks. There are a couple banks in Brazil I like, but some of them are so bureaucratic. And you fill out form after form and the fees are crazy. I was going to open a bank account in Brazil and I gave up. I was so annoyed at the process. Last time I was in Brazil, I was so annoyed going into a bank to change money that I literally had a friend do the exchange for me. I was doing it through a friend. I gave him some dollars. He gave me some reals because I was so annoyed with the bank. And then the ATM fees were ridiculous. Anyways, there is a long history of Brazilian consumers being treated by any measure you can come up with very, very badly, and especially small merchants. It's not limited to banks. Definitely people gripe about it. So there's a lot of longstanding frustration with this sector. And apparently one of these founders went into a bank, had a bad experience, and said, I'm gonna do this better, I'm gonna make a mobile app, it's gonna be easy to use, it's gonna be convenient and low price. And that was sort of your standard digital play to disrupt a frustrating legacy business. What do you do? You make it convenient, you make it cheap, and you put it on a phone. Which is pretty much what they did. And their first product was a credit card. That's a little different than Ant Financial. Ant Financial and Alipay, WeChat Pay, Chinese consumers had debit cards, but they didn't have credit cards. So mobile payment was their solution. And it was a very good step up for people. Brazil is a little bit different in that a lot of people don't have bank accounts. Those that have bank accounts don't necessarily have credit cards. So, I mean, the situation was a little bit different, but in both cases, you have sort of a, you're leading with a payment solution. Now, when you do a credit card, you can consider that a payment solution plus some additional credit service. But it's kind of both. Okay. So, they go in. They launch their new bank credit card. It does, and it's tied to the mobile app and the mobile app is, I haven't played with it, I don't have it, I'm gonna look it up. Everyone says the mobile app was super convenient, nice, you know, digital company, right? And they offer good user experience, much greater convenience and lower fees. And that's, you know, that was kind of a lot of digital businesses 1.0. That was a very common playbook. Now, I don't know much about the banking market of Brazil. I know some, but not that much. But historically, it has been very concentrated, lack of competition, very high costs, lots and lots of complaints. That's not uncommon in certain sectors of Brazil. There is a bureaucratic aspect to Brazil. Someone there is a Brazilian dude. He described it as the Latin American Italy. which I thought was kind of funny. There's a lot of that going on in certain parts of the economy. The one part of the economy I always think that's really funny is anything to do with having fun. Like if having fun were an industry, like Brazil would be like a world power because you might walk into a retailer and have a bad experience as a supermarket and a bank, especially the post office. and you get frustrated by the bureaucracy. And then you walk out to the beach and it's super entrepreneurial and super, I mean, when it comes to having fun, things work beautifully in Brazil. Like everything on the beach works well. You wanna get a caipirinha anytime, anywhere, super convenient. Anyways, it's an interesting place. Okay, so they launched their credit card. That's their core foundational product. That's how they lead. They started in Brazil. They later expanded to Mexico and Colombia and in both cases they led with the credit card. I believe they're, according to their filing, they're now the number one credit card issuer in Mexico, but they were leading with payment the same way Alipay and financial leads with payment. From there they started to add bank accounts. So you're a consumer, you have your credit card, your mobile app, then you can do your bank account. That's 2017, 2018 they add a debit card, 2019 they start getting into personal loans. So they're sort of building out the payment platform and then they're adding services on top of that, mostly credit. Late 2019 they start offering bank accounts to SMEs. 2020 they enter Mexico, also enter Columbia, and so they're kind of rolling up. So they're basically stacking services on effectively payment platform, the credit card. And that's a good business. And when you start looking at their user numbers, which is what's getting everyone's attention, the user numbers are quite spectacular. 47 million consumers, which is a huge percentage of Brazil. 1.1 million SMEs. And then when you look at the activity rates, the number they show, which I think is impressive, In 2021, about 50% of their monthly active users were also daily active users. So they're getting, you know, if anyone's got this app, about half of the people are using it every day. So this is high frequency and that 50% number was 40% a year before, and it was 35% six months before that. So the number of users is going up. the frequency of engagement is going up, the data produced is going up, and then the revenue is going up, and they basically make their money from fees and from interest on the various credit products, things like that. So last time I checked, were they US millions? Nine months ending, no, let's see, for full year 2020, about 737 million US dollars in revenue. about a 50% gross profit on that. And then as you'd expect, they're spending like crazy on R&D and other things, so they're net negative overall, which is what you would expect for someone building a platform. OK, so that's kind of the basics background of what we'll call digital bank 1.0. And my sort of takeaways from all of this is this is classic digital first business model taking on long established physical business models. And there's already proven demand, but there's a lot of frustration. So that's a really good target. Against this scenario, they leveraged in their digital economics that let them build a better and cheaper product, which is a lot of what digital is about. And number three, it also enabled them to shift from a traditional business model to a platform business model. And we've seen that over and over in industry after industry. When I look at New Bank 1.0, It's a payment platform that has some credit and banking services added on top of it. I would expect the services they provide on top of the payment, which could be a bank account, it could be various types of credit, and I think that's going to grow and I think cross-border payments will go because one of the things payment platforms do is they cross borders very, very well. So they did Mexico, they did Colombia, they did Brazil. They'll roll into the other Latin American countries quite soon. The big two markets of Latam are Brazil and Mexico, right? And then they'll start doing cross-border payments, and then from there we'll see if they choose to go outside of the region. Let's call that New Bank 1.0. New Bank 2.0. I think they're gonna, here's my takeaway, here's my guess and I'll go into it. I think they're gonna start adding complimentary marketplace platforms for wealth management and for insurance because that's exactly what Ant Financial did. Ant Financial at its core, 2016, was a payment platform that was more aggressive in credit. So they didn't just offer a couple types of consumer loans themselves on top of the payment platform. They actually brought in 100 plus banks that they connected to and they offered tons of credit types through them. I'll go into that. That was their core platform. Their complementary platform was a marketplace for wealth management and insurance products. So they connected with all these mutual funds, all these insurance companies, and it was a marketplace. And their consumers could buy an insurance product or they could put their money into a mutual fund or whatever and it was just like a marketplace. Now that is actually kind of the big money. The problem with that marketplace is it's very hard to do that as a standalone marketplace because you don't get enough engagement. People don't buy insurance every day. They buy it once or twice a year maybe. So you're not getting enough frequency. It's very hard for a standalone marketplace for digital, for sort of wealth management products to survive. But when you stick it on top of a payment platform that gets high activity and usage, it works quite well, which is what Ant did. So Ant had a payment platform with a lot more credit services. It had a marketplace on top of that, a complimentary platform for wealth management and insurance products. And they actually had a third marketplace or a second marketplace, a third platform for daily local services, which is really Meituan. It was a Lamma. which was the competitor to Maytwan like Gojek, it just sort of ended up under Alipay. I'll talk about that. I don't think we will necessarily see Newbank do that. But when you go through the history of Ant Financial, you see the mobile app, 2011. Mobile payment was a big thing. They started to add credit. 2013, they started to do... Wealth Management Products, UABOW, which was their big money market fund. 2018, they were really going cross-border in payment, especially in Asia. They went pretty much everywhere. They went to Pakistan, they went to Brunei, everywhere. 2019, they started adding mutual benefit insurance products. And then they filed to go public in 2020, but that obviously got pulled. Okay. So, you know, it's a very... compelling business model. And I think you can see Newbank sort of following in the path. I'll talk about some of the differences, but when I look at, you know, why is that such a powerful model? Well, I mean, I can make a list of really cool stuff happening right then. Number one. it is a dramatic improvement in the user experience. That's always been one of my digital superpowers. That's definitely true for consumers, and it's even true for SMEs on the merchant side. Number one. Number two, it leverages in digital economics. These things can become cheaper and cheaper, and smarter and smarter, and they can grow without limit. If you have a digital platform for payments, you don't need to open branches, and New Bank has no branches. There's nothing stopping New Bank from going into 50 countries. I mean, it is wide open. There's regulatory issues, but the model itself can expand as cheaply and quickly and without constraint as say Netflix or Facebook or YouTube. Number three, it's a platform business model, which means it has chicken and the egg. You're able to subsidize prices because you have multiple user groups and that's definitely something they're doing. They're not charging consumers. They're making the prices to consumers very, very low because they want to grow their users. So you charge the merchants or you charge the banks, but you don't charge the users. Platforms can do that. They can give away a lot of free stuff the same way YouTube and Google give you everything for free. Most banks can't do that. They have three plus network effects. I won't go into that. They get economies of scale in IT and all the very specialized operations you need to do banking. So this is a lot of economies of scale in highly specialized web, IT, and finance operations. That's gonna be hard to replicate. And it's also naturally viral. The more people that use payment, the more users you get. So let's call that New Bank 1.0. So the question is, which is the goal for this talk, what's next? What's New Bank 2.0? And I have a list of five things. So prediction number one, New Bank could offer asset light credit services. And that's a direct copy of Ant Financial. When Ant did it, they have a platform business model, two user groups. you know, consumers and merchants, payments going back and forth. And you can also do payments between consumers and payments between merchants. So you actually get three network effects there. But what Ant really did was they added another user group which was a hundred plus banks. And there's a lot of banks in China. So local banks, regional banks, things like that. And when they would offer credit to consumers, loans, micro loans, things like that, or when they'd offer credit to suppliers, the merchant side, 98, 99% of that loan activity was not held by Ant. They would do the analysis, they would design the credit products and they would make the decision. But once the loan was made, the balance would sit on the bank's balance sheet and not Ant's and they would just take a fee. And then as the person paid back the loan, they would also be in charge of receiving that money and handing it onto the bank. So as interest payments were made, they would take their fee out of the interest payments first. They called it a technical service fee. But it was a really good model in terms of its economics because they were designing the credit products themselves. The banks weren't, it wasn't a marketplace. The banks weren't offering all these different types of credit options and then users would choose like a marketplace. No, Ant was designing the credit itself. controlling the data that determined underwriting risk, credit risk, credit worthiness, that was all them, because they had credit scores. And then they would do the placement and then the balance would be transferred to the bank. But it was really a service controlled by Ant. And it was controlled in sort of, you know what it looks like? It looks a lot like Tsai Niao, their logistics business. The logistics business is core to the e-commerce, but they don't want to own the warehouses. So other companies own the warehouses, they are asset light, but they control the nervous system. They control the data and they control the customers. And that's how they sort of describe their role within their logistics is they control the digital nervous system for the logistics, but they don't have to own the assets. So that's an asset light approach. This is an asset light approach to credit. That was really a cool idea. And now that the government didn't like that, and that was literally the first thing the government objected to was, if you're gonna issue lots and lots of credit, you have to be acting like a bank. You can't just place it, take a fee, and move on. And they later changed the rules. But before that all happened, this was about 40% of their revenue. when they filed to go public, their two big sources of revenue were payment fees and credit. That's where they were making their money. And when people were doing their valuation for Ant, they were really focused on how much the credit was gonna grow, because as a population gets wealthier and wealthier, you get a share of their wallet. So it's not like selling advertising where there's only so many hours in the day, you really, as the country gets wealthier and wealthier, the amount of credit used goes up. So you make more and more revenue. So anyways, I don't see New Bank doing this today. I think they're gonna do it if they can get away with it regulatory wise. Regulatory wise, right? Start to be an intermediary between them and lots and lots of smaller banks. Not the giants who dominate the market, but the smaller banks or whatever would be equivalent. If it's permitted in terms of regulation. That's a massive move. I think they will do it if they can pull it off. If they aren't, I think they should. That's kind of number one on my list, is they will go into asset-light credit services in a major way. Okay, number two. I think they will create a complimentary marketplace for investment and insurance products, just like Ant did. I think they've already sort of got a foot in this. They're starting to offer some insurance products. They're starting to sort of... do some mutual funds and things, but they're really just at the beginning. I think they're going to open up the full suite, complimentary marketplace platform the same way. I mean, if you've got all the users and they're keeping, you know, they're using you for their credit card and payment and you've got their bank accounts. I mean, you're just gonna put all that money in checking accounts? No, you're gonna start to place it other places. It's gonna naturally turn into a marketplace for lots of wealth management products and insurance. Now, I think the question will be, how curated will it be? Will they be very selective and only offer a select number? Or will they just, they will have like 10,000 mutual funds that you could do. Now, obviously, once you start doing that stuff, there's regulatory issues. but that would take them from one payment platform to two platform business models. I think they will do that for sure. Well, I don't know for sure, but I sure would. Okay, number three, new bank will go cross border and offer a growing suite of financial services products. You know, they are still a bank, that is their business model. They wanna be a digital bank. Well, banks offer a lot of stuff. credit cards, debit cards, checking accounts, savings accounts, retirement accounts, child's college funds, things like that. I think they will replicate everything you see in a regular bank on their platform. So that would be just sort of a growing suite of financial services products without necessarily creating a marketplace. And I think they will take their payments cross border very quickly. And You know, that's pretty much, I mean, Ant really moved. People didn't really talk about it, but 2017, 2018-ish, Ant was one of the most aggressive Chinese companies internationally. They were buying banks around the world, investing. They were moving very quickly. And they covered, you know, last time I checked, it was like 30 countries had some sort of deal where they had worked out where they could do their payments. So I'm curious how far New Bank will go, but I think they will do all of Latin America for sure. And then probably, let's say Spanish-speaking Europe, maybe, who knows? Regulations matter. Okay, number four. So one, two, and three, I think absolutely. I'd hang my hat on those. Number four, number five, I hope they do. But I'm not as sure they will. Number four, they could launch mini programs within their payment app. You know, WeChat mini programs is a huge deal. It is number three, maybe number four in terms of e-commerce in China now. Their GMV has been doubling, going up 100% year over year for the last couple years. They have become a major e-commerce player because the highest frequency thing used that people do is check their messages. Well, within Messenger, they have... hundreds of thousands of mini apps that you can rent a bike, get a ride on your car, buy something, donate money, pay your phone bill, pay your electricity bill. I mean, it is just a sea of apps, mini apps within that. So they kind of become like another desktop. When Alipay wanted to compete with this, when Alibaba wanted to compete with this, they didn't have a messenger. They had DingTalk, but that's B2B, it's not B2C. So what did they end up doing? They ended up trying to build mini programs into Alipay. So that's kind of what Ullama was doing. That's why they moved it over there was, the second highest frequency thing people do is they do payments. So let's start putting mini programs within our payment app, Alipay. And that was kind of what was going on as they were ramping up to go public. It was there. Now, since then, things have been shuffled around. But if New Bank were to announce we are launching many programs within our payment app, I think the world would lose its mind. I think all the equity analysts would like to stop on a dime and start to imagine what that might be worth. Because, I mean, let's not kid ourselves. New Bank has consumers' attention. It has their attention. and engagement in a way that apps only dream of having. So once you've got that, you know, messenger to mini apps is what WeChat did, but Alibaba was gonna try and do payment to mini programs. So anyways, I'm hoping they do it. I'm hoping they just make an announcement. New Bank, if you're listening to this, just announce it. Just go out there and say, we are starting to think about doing mini programs within our payment app. And watch everyone lose their minds. It's huge. Okay, doesn't mean it would necessarily work, but it would sure get people's attention. Okay, that's number four. Last one, number five. They could externalize their financial cloud services. And we see this all the time, right? You build up the capabilities you need to enable the interactions on the platform. You build up your web servers, you build up your driver services, you build up your logistics. And then at a certain point, you offer those as services to the entire world. its own market, which JD Logistics did, which Amazon Web Services did, which DD Driver Services tried to do kind of, and that gets you a lot of benefits. It makes it a more impressive capability. It gets you massive economies of scale, and it can turn into a very profitable business in its own right. Okay, New Bank is spending, I mean, is anyone spending as much money building out finance operations, AI, machine learning, security, cybersecurity, privacy, all the specialized tech you need to be a bank. That is very different than building out the tech to share videos or to ship socks. They are building very, very specialized IT capabilities and they're spending tons of money. If they were to externalize that and offer that as a financial cloud service, to various financial institutions all across Latin America. It would be a very interesting business and that's what Alibaba did. They launched Ant Financial Cloud and they sold that as a cloud service to lots and lots of financial institutions across China. You know, it had credit analysis, it had fraud detection, it had cybersecurity, it had regulatory compliance, all those specialized things you need to do. I mean, New Bank may end up with the largest specialized financial cloud in the region, or at least it'll be one of the top players. So that's kind of an interesting thing. And I think they could externalize that and that would be a very cool thing to offer in Latin America. So those are my five. As I said, I think one through three will happen. I think four to five or more guesses. I'm listing them in the show notes. I won't read them back again. And I think that's good for the content for today. Again, the two concepts to take away from here, payment platforms and complimentary platforms. As for me, I am back in Colombo. I had a pretty good week traveling around the island, doing a sort of a typical tourist route where you go to Kandy into the center of the island up to Nuara Elia Ella. Then you sort of head south to the beaches. And I went to a safari in Uduwalawe, really fantastic, I really like safaris, so I went to, this was sort of a smaller safari, a smaller national park, but it's got the most elephants. There were just elephants everywhere, which was kind of funny, we got charged by one, like there was, I guess it's mating season, so the male elephants are a little bit more aggressive, and one guy was just a little bit angry, and he kept sort of, not charging our Jeep, but he would sort of run directly at it, not too fast, but enough to let you know he was angry. flapping his ears and we'd have to back up pretty quickly. I had some funny videos of that. Yeah, but it was really great. You know, it was great. And then I went to the South Beaches and Gal, which is this great fort town and sort of completed my circle and I'm back in Columbia for a couple of days. And then I fly out to the United States and then down to Brazil. I'm gonna be in Sao Paulo for all of February. So if you're in town, give me a heads up. I'm gonna be doing some meetings and some other stuff down there. I'm really looking forward to that. And then I gotta figure out how to get back to Thailand because the rules keep changing and changing, which is problematic. So I didn't actually buy a return ticket because I keep having to eat plane tickets every time I try to get into Thailand. They change the rules about every two to three weeks. So I'm not totally sure what I'm doing after that. I may bounce around Europe a little bit. We'll see, I'll have to figure that out, I guess. It's hard to fly into a country like Brazil because they always ask you like, well, it's hard to fly in when they ask you, okay, where's your return ticket? It's like, I don't have one. You know, they don't generally like that. You generally have to have a ticket out of the country before they get let you on the plane. So I guess I'll have to figure it out this week. Yeah, maybe Eastern Europe, something like that. Who knows? Anyways, that's been my week. It's been pretty fun. I'm having a good time. But anyways, I hope everyone is doing well. Hope you're staying safe and I will talk to you next week. Bye-bye.