Hello, and welcome to The Talent Trade. This is Stephanie Maas with ThinkingAhead Executive Search. Super excited to be here today with one of our rock stars from the nonprofit team. Heather Campbell. Heather, welcome.
Thank you.
Go ahead and tell us a little bit about you, and anything you think our listeners would want to know.
My name is Heather Campbell, I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota, born and raised Minnesotan. I've been with thinking ahead for a little over five years now, sort of in April of 2019. I'm on the nonprofit team. And I focus on working with nonprofits that really work with human rights, equity and equality, as well as the social impact spaces.
Well welcome. We're super excited to have you here. And another thing that I'm super excited about is kind of your topic I remember many years ago, learning from kind of one of thinking ahead gurus and him saying at one point that at the end of the day, if a search is meant to come together, it will with or without us. And he shared that to kind of take the pressure off, especially because when he shared it with me, quite
frankly, I was rather new to the practice. But at the same time, he also said that, hey, when you have opportunity to earn your keep in a search, kind of take it serious and make sure that you really are if you're going to be a part of it, make sure you really are earning your keep as a facilitator of that process. And that's something I think that we're going to talk a lot about today with you.
And I love that I think that prepping and debriefing the candidates and the clients during this part of the process, they probably do great without us. But at the same time, it's that like additional sort of icing on the cake to make sure stuff goes really well. I'm also a big process driven person. So if this is something that could manage in that process, I love it.
And you know, it's funny too, because through the years, the folks that we represent both on the client side and the candidate side, they're not professional interviewers. So I think this is an area where in terms of prepping and debriefing them, we have a huge opportunity to make a difference. Because oftentimes people are incredible what they do, but they don't know how to advocate for themselves. They don't, you know, hey, it's been five years since I interviewed
last, or I'm usually when doing the interviewing. So I think this is a super valuable topic. So jump right in, walk us through your philosophy a little bit. And then just walk us through how you do what you do.
And so from a philosophy standpoint, prepping and debriefing is is just part of our process in general, right. So it's not necessarily this big new thing or something that I'm sure a lot of search firms do. But I think that we do it really, really well. And I enjoy it, it's actually my
favorite part of my job. Because I get to build stronger relationships with both, you know, the client, the hiring manager, maybe some folks that haven't met along the way in the process, as well as then those candidates that obviously there's only one person that typically gets the job, you get to still build relationships with four or five, six other people that you never know, throughout your career, many may
bump into again. So I was going to kind of go over, you know, break it down, what do I do with the clients and then break it down? And you know, probably a little bit longer. What do I do with the candidates? As far as the prep goes?
Can we just stop there for a second, because I want to just spend a minute on the value that you think this brings from a holistic perspective, this was something I was taught very early on in my search career thinking ahead was to prep the clients. And yet, as I've been out, you know, networking with other recruiters attending recruiter events. This is a topic that I'm constantly surprised at how many folks
don't do this. So I'd love to hear from your perspective, kind of why your dogged about making this a part of your process.
It's a super important piece of the process. So that again, I can kind of know what's going on and manage how they're going to work. But again, to your point, oftentimes, they're great at what they do, but they are not professional interview errs. And so being able to make sure that they know what questions they're going to ask, and how to sort of
handle themselves in that interview. Because, frankly, just as much as they are interviewing the candidates, you know, those candidates are interviewing them as well to make sure that this is a good fit. So being able to just talk through logistics, but also how to be in the interview and how to sort of woo the candidates to the opportunity as well. Make
sure that they have a good experience. And then I think from an equity perspective, it's really important that every candidate is having a similar experience and being able to have them present themselves in a way that you know, the clients can can see that in a very similar fashion like they're being able to see every candidate In the same light in the same way to be able to evaluate people from an equity perspective.
Do you ever get pushback from clients? How do you set it up with the clients that this is going to be a part of what you do?
Definitely early on, when we have our kickoff call, we talked through the whole process, everything that I'm gonna be doing, and then everything that I have, as far as an expectation from them, I'm getting some bandwidth off their plate by probably helping to manage schedules and get a hold on their calendars. So that gets a little buy in because
they're like, oh, this makes things easy. But then a part of that scheduling of interviews, were also just, I just kind of assumed that we're going to also schedule the prep call before all those interviews happen. So I think I start early with talking through that, oftentimes, bIown isn't too difficult. But they may need like, I'll tailor the amount of
prep that I do based on how much they do. So if the interview is with HR, first off, they've got their standard list of questions, there's maybe a little bit less that I have to do. But then oftentimes, we'll get a panel involved. And there'll be three or four people from the organization, that they value, this idea of having an interview guide in front of them being assigned questions, and going through those together to say, who's gonna say, what? And does this question make like
sound like you? Is it something that's kind of authentic to what you want to say? And so I would say, it's pretty rare that we get any sort of feedback, we do get a lot of feedback on the back end. In fact, just recently, I had a whole group of a panel say this was the most organized, focused process we've ever had, because of just how detailed you were.
Super cool. And then just just for those of us that want, maybe you want to try this, for the first time, help alleviate some fear for us. If you do get pushback, saying hey, we're good. We don't need that. Thanks. I've held interviews before. How do you handle clients that maybe don't buy in right away or don't respond positively to your assumptive? Hey, we're going to do a client prep here.
I think I would suggest that we try it, I think equity, there's a lot of organizations that are starting to, you know, sort of start a journey from a diversity, equity and inclusion standpoint. And oftentimes, they don't understand that that can start all the way at the interview process, not just when they are on boarded somebody to make sure that they have a good experience with an organization, it is essential that everybody is being asked the same questions.
And that an organization is treating folks with dignity and respect through that, instead of just throwing them into an interview process, that probably doesn't look very good. And so I think being able to educate them on me supporting that part of the process typically gets people to sort of say, okay, yeah, at least we'll meet with you for a half hour.
And if I heard you, right, it sounds like the way you position it is really that this is in their best interest. But even sometimes, so in that language of like, from a legal standpoint, I want to set this up to protect you. But again, the kudos to you is setting it up in a way that you don't get a lot of pushback. Okay, so then you get them on there, you're on your schedule, walk us through, what is this sound like?
Yeah, with the client prep, it's pretty basic. Again, we talked about the scheduling of the interviews and put together this interview guide that gets sent over to them a few days before the prep, so that everybody involved whether it's one person, or four, or five, and a panel gets to see it. So everybody involved gets to have a little bit of input. So we start off first to talk about logistics. Everybody got the calendar invites, what are the goals of the interview?
Again, it is to evaluate a candidate, but it's also to show the candidate a really good experience, because they are ultimately evaluating anybody involved in the interview process as well. We talked about the fact that salary will not be discussed in this part of the interview and the importance of that, because that, again, is handled through me. And it's something that just doesn't need to muddy the waters or make anything kind of feel off when you're talking to those
questions. And then we do schedule a debrief afterwards. So after they've interviewed the candidates that are involved in this part, they want to get them all on the phone together again, for even a 30 minutes or so to just talk about how did it go. Aside from that, though, we are having them fill out fill out evaluation forms, either in a matrix form or you know, like a Google form, so that they can individually share feedback, and then I get that feedback. But then I also want to share it
kind of from their mouths together later. So I get kind of two sides to a really good, deep, like feedback point from an individual perspective than then kind of as a group. So the client prep is is pretty easy. And you know, very process driven. Now the candidate prep, I think there's a little bit more emotion, and sort of a deeper field to how to handle that. As I said, prepping and debriefing with candidates is
actually probably my favorite part of the job. But again, it's something that I have set the tone for this when I started the relationship with the candidate once I've started vetting them and I've had multiple conversations with them. I've submitted them to the client. I'll similarly, they were asked to have an interview, I have told them that if they get that interview, they will be prepping and debriefing with me all the
way through the whole process. So again, kind of trying to build that bond and setting up that expectation that, hey, we're going to talk a lot, and being able to kind of let them know that they will have to share how things went both from a logistics standpoint, from an emotional standpoint, and all those other elements, which I think is really key to to part
of that process. So I'll usually schedule a candidate prep, you know, 24, to 40 to 48 hours before that candidate has their interview, before the prep call, I'll send them an email with things like the names of the people that they'll be meeting with what their titles are usually a link to their LinkedIn. And then we have several good documents that we kind of say take it or leave it. But there's a lot of value in being able to read these interviews and to support
yourself through this. So it's a hitting the target during a personal interview, answering the tell me about yourself question. And then we've got a link regarding the STAR method, and how to use that this technique to ace the next job interview. I think a lot of times people when they answer questions, especially behavioral questions, I talk a lot about the situation, the tasks that they had, the actions that they took, but they sometimes forget to really like all circle it and
bring in the results. What happened at the end, and after all the work that you did, what were the results. And so the that document can be really helpful for folks to sort of review and look through, again, these preps give me face to face time and just build a better relationship and bond with these folks. And ultimately, I want them to trust me through the process. Because if we get to a finish line, there's a lot of things that we cover that I need them to share and talk me
through. So again, it's just another face to face meeting with them that I feel is really important. Again, every candidate usually goes through the same type of crap, we go through the same information. And I tell them that you probably won't be great in this interview, but it's helping you put your best foot forward. And so again, take a look at the information that I that I share with you here. So what I get them on a prep call, the first question I ask is, has anything
changed since we last talked behind listening for? Are they in other interview processes? Has their enthusiasm level gotten higher or lower? At this point in the process? You know, how much research have have they done? Just how are they feeling in general? Are they somebody who typically kind of is more relaxed? You know, are they somebody who gets really anxious before an interview, trying to kind of get get in their head a
little bit around that. And it also lets me sort of see how much prep work they've actually done so far, and how much I need to kind of push them to continue to do more research or look up more stuff? Or or, you know, how do you know the names of the people and their titles, and you looked at where they went to school, things like that. We'll go through logistics next. So whether it's virtual or in person, so So the who, where when how, what's the agenda, you know, all those kinds of things
that just really aware of, of what's happening. And then something that I suggest that they do is schedule a call with a friend or family member member, somebody they trust 30 minutes before an interview, somebody that can champion them and give them just some love before their interview. But sometimes it's not necessary if the person's a little bit more
relaxed. But if there's any outs of anxiousness, it's a fun suggestion to just say, hey, grab a friend and tell them to call you or you call them 30 minutes before and say you've got this, that or you know, I think a lot of times in thinking ahead, we talk about you know, like the power pose or saying in front of the mirror and saying you got this, things like that. So I encourage people to do that before and planning it before the interview. So after we've gone through logistics, we
talked about the people they'll be meeting with. So what's their background? What's their personality? What's their style, you know, how do they interview, if you're the first person in an interview, versus maybe the fifth person to go through an interview, I may know a little less, because I haven't gotten feedback from other candidates about how the interview process went. But it's, it's still good. I've now talked with those clients and the folks that they'll be meeting with because
I did the client prep. So I've got a little bit more of an understanding on you know, who's going to be somebody that's going to have more energy, who's going to be somebody that maybe asks more questions is the talkative one, the facilitator, things like that. So I'll be able to just go through that. And I encourage people, I want them to be authentic in themselves in an interview process, because that's going to
be how they show up for work every day. But I think it's also super important to balance and match sort of the level of energy that the interviewees are giving off. And, you know, if they're kind of call calm, cool collected, it's probably more so how you should be but if you've got someone who's high energy, they don't lean into that and also sort of match that energy. So, again, authenticity is really important, but I think there's also something to be said about just kind of like a
self aware understanding of who you're with. Okay, the interview questions, you know, what can be expected? What do they need to prepare for? I don't actually give them the exact questions and the list of things that they're going to say, well, we'll talk about the essence of the question and sort of why are they asking it? This is the question that you're going to be having to talk about ABC topic. And this is why they want to get
a better understanding of your ability to do this. This isn't done to give the candidates the answers, but it allows them to just prepare and put their best foot foot forward, I have a personal belief that we live in a culture that glorifies fast paced, and on the spot decision making, which is necessary, I realized that but I think there's also a lot of value and strength in allowing people to process and plan. We talked
about closing the interview. So I'll ask them to, you know, wrap up the interview, usually they've asked their questions of the client. But before they go, I encourage everybody to sort of say some sort of version of of this phrase, thank them comment on something that you've learned or something that you're grateful for? And then say some version of before I go, Are there any last minute hesitations, reservations or
concerns you have about my candidacy? I don't want them to say do you have any last minute questions, it's reservations, hesitations or concerns, I feel that this is so important, because they do have something they'll probably share it with, you now have an opportunity to address it on the spot. The last thing I want is for the client to say, Well, they didn't really talk about their experience doing this, but they never asked, they never got the opportunity to actually like,
share a little bit more about that. And if it is something that maybe it's a weakness that you do have, you still could address it and maybe find something that is a you know, a skill set that that's very similar, or you're able to, you know, sort of just know where they feel that you have something that doesn't meet the needs. And again, it's just an opportunity to, to address it candid information is really,
really important. I think it's an old question and allows people just some strength at the end to sort of close it up on their terms, then we will schedule a debrief with the candidate as well. So I want to talk with them, ideally, an hour after their interview sometime within that hour, or just immediately after. And so we scheduled that for just a 15 minute thing, Hey, your interviews over, give me a call, let's get let's talk about how it went questions that typically
asked her, you know, logistics, like was everybody on time? Was there any tech issues? How did it go? Things like that. And then I'll ask tell me very, very broadly, like, how do you feel that it went, and some listening for things like, again, enhanced enthusiasm, anything that they feel they maybe didn't do? So? Well, we'll talk about what did they learn from the interview? Were there questions that you told me you wanted to ask? Did
you get to ask those? And were there additional? Was there additional information that that you were able to hear and learn? Based on how you're feeling so far? Do you feel like this is a job that you can handle? As well as is this something that's going to challenge you enough? You know, so where do they kind of land with that, based on what they learned about the job? How is the synergy with the people that you talk to, especially if
this is somebody that they would be reporting to or appear? And we'll just kind of go through those questions. And again, kind of just letting them download on how it went? I asked them about that question, how they close the interview? If they did they ask it be? Did they have any sort of responses? And then were they able to overcome anything? We next then coach them to, of
course, write a thank you note. But what I would say is based on this debriefing with me, is there anything that you and I just talked about that you could add and include into a thank you note, maybe it's something that you wish you would have clarified or something you were really grateful that you learned or something that you found as a connection between that that candidate or that client and yourself, those are the things to add into a thank you note, I feel that these are super
important, I want you to make it less generic and more personal. So again, anything that you may have have connected on, I have had many clients tell me that a good thank you note has had a candidate rise above others because of the effort that was put into a good Sanku no need to do anything to the mail anymore. Virtual note is just fine. I get asked that question a lot too. You'll probably know if you made it or not sooner than a note
would get to them in the mail. And then the last part of the debriefs that I have is just be really honest about what I'm going to be able to have feedback, I never want to over promise, a timeframe that I will be able to share news with them. And regardless of the decision, I will let them know and mechanistic client was able to offer me about how the interview went.
Wow. So now let's talk for just a second about the client debrief. Again, I think this is part of it. It's like a no brainer, but because so many people just take it for granted, it doesn't end up adding anything to the process. So walk us through your client debrief.
So again, this is something that we scheduled, you know, after all of the interviews for that round, you know, so you've got around one interview, anybody that was involved with that will schedule that whether it's one person or five, and we typically go through each candidate separately, just kind of letting them share. How do they feel? like it went with, you know, John, Sarah, Jim, I also share
with them the feedback. So I've had that conversation with the the candidate about, you know, things that they talked about things, they enjoyed it, maybe some like starstruck pieces that that happen, I'll share that first so that they can kind of usually it's good stuff because most often the candidates feel like, you know, it went well. But they'll resonate with things that maybe were said there, which I feel like kind of helps them either remember some parts of those interviews that that
happened? And also find like a connection with that person, like, oh, yeah, that we did talk about that, or Oh, no, I did, she did share that. So I think that that part is really important to just be candid, we'll go through each candidate, and let everybody just sort of share. Sometimes people disagree on stuff, which is really interesting. But I tried to just really ask probing questions versus trying to input anything
about my experience with the candidate. Because, you know, we're all human, sometimes I, you know, have favorites and everything. I don't want to involve myself in that part of the process at all. I want them to hear from each other about how it went and how it happened. It also depends on is this a panel appears? Or is this an executive leadership team versus
the hiring manager. And so I try to keep the hiring manager on or record those debriefs with the client so that the hiring manager can whoever the decision maker is about the candidate, I want to make sure that they're able to listen to on how those
debriefs with went with everybody else involved. But again, on the back end, I've gotten evaluation forms from everybody in real time, right after an interview, that then I typically will either share or talk with the hiring manager, you know, about how those how those why, and, you know, usually it just kind of ends with a, you know, thank you, I really, really appreciate your time, because oftentimes, if it isn't the hiring manager, you know, they took time out of
their day to make sure that these interviews happen, which I think is really important to value their time as well. And again, I know upfront, who is making the decisions, and so if it's a group of folks that did the interview process that are just there to provide conflict, a balance, thank you, and we didn't move on. And if it is the hiring manager, you know, there's been our goal is to always have two good candidates
at the very end. And so oftentimes, it's a lot of probing and what were the things that were the real strengths, what are the things you know, that that maybe you feel like long term could be an issue or those kinds of things? So So really, it's all about just being really intentional about the questions, I'm asking them so that they can come to a conclusion for themselves on whether a candidate is.
Candidly, listening to you talk, two huge takeaways. Number one, your candidates have got to feel like you are a huge ally and advocate for them. Again, to our point earlier, most folks interviewing is not what they do for a living. So getting into a situation where you're really
preparing them. And I love what you said about the authenticity, you're not preparing them to be a quote unquote, good interviewer, but rather preparing them to put their best foot forward to maximize the time that they spend with folks knowing that they're covering, you know, thoughts, questions, concerns, and an hour. Yeah, anytime you have to have a meaningful conversation, a prep would be super helpful. That's
incredible. And then, on the client side, the attention to detail that you provide, has got to give them tremendous confidence when it's time for them to make a decision.
Thank you a search ago that I had this year, I've had the candidate that was the number two seed that didn't get the job, right, Greg, my boss an email telling him just how important that process of the interview like the prep debrief with her was a professional that how much it supported her. It was really, really enjoyable to read, because it was the person that didn't get the job that felt the like need to share.
Man, what a tribute to you. Okay, anything else that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure it gets on here?
I haven't worked for other search firms. I don't know what this process is for other groups. But I think I believe firmly that thinking ahead does this the best. I think that thinking ahead, really owns this part of the process values, it takes it very seriously. It isn't just something that's like Oak Park, we got to make sure this happens for myself, and I know many others, whether it's a nonprofit
team, or I'm assuming, you know, other groups. There's a lot of care that goes into this because it is what makes our ratios so, so tight. And it's what makes us be able to say that, you know, we get we get candidates in seats, even though yes, we're finding the great talent. I feel like we're also stewarding a part of the process that just maybe not doesn't get as much attention.
I think it's a huge advantage for working with a boutique firm versus and again, everybody has the right to earn a living however they choose and different models fit different people but thinking ahead being a boutique firm versus a resume broker or volume shop. This is an area that we really have an opportunity to make a significant impact, even to your point on the folks who don't get the job. Yeah. Thank you so much for your willingness to share this with our
listeners. I'm going to encourage if anybody has any additional thoughts or questions or wants to see some of the documentation that Heather sends out, I know she's incredibly approachable. You can find her on LinkedIn reach out, you can find her through our website thinking ahead.com Thank the listeners for being with us. Thank you, Heather.
Thank you for having me.