Amy Robinson:
Today's SWAPA number is 89. That's the number of days Contract Admin Chair, Seth Kornblum was on strike when he was with his former carrier, Comair.
Mike Panebianco:
With the strike authorization vote coming up and the strike prep booklet having been mailed to homes, we felt that the time is right to sit down and talk with him about what that time in life was like, what were some of the things he'd do differently, and what he feels is important about the upcoming vote.
Amy Robinson:
I'm Amy Robinson.
Mike Panebianco:
And I'm Mike Pan Panebianco, taking over hosting duties today for Kurt. And here's our interview with Seth.
Amy Robinson:
So Seth, you haven't been on the podcast for a while. So for our listeners, go ahead and give them an update on what your current role is.
Seth Kornblum:
So I'm the Chair of the Contract Admin Department here at SWAPA, and I've been back in Contract Admin since 2017.
Amy Robinson:
What is the role of Contract Admin, for anybody who doesn't know.
Seth Kornblum:
So Contract Admin's tasked with making sure the company is complying with the contract. We also educate our membership on contractual provisions, and we also assist with disciplinary hearings that our pilots might find themselves party to.
Mike Panebianco:
As we said in the intro, we're here to talk about the Comair strike. Tell us a little bit about that. When was the Comair?
Seth Kornblum:
So the Comair strike started at the end of March 2001. Lasted for 89 days, where I was a Line Captain.
Amy Robinson:
Before the strike, did you have a strike authorization to vote?
Seth Kornblum:
We did, and the turnout was amazing. As I recall, the participation rate was over 99%. And the only people that voted no, was just six people. Not 6%, but as I recall it was six pilots out of the entire pilot group. If my memory serves me right, I think at that time it was around 1,500, give or that.
Amy Robinson:
So that's a pretty low turnout of no voters.
Seth Kornblum:
Extremely low.
Mike Panebianco:
A lot of our membership is watching this process play out and it's the first time for many of them. We were in mediation 2015, 2016. But I think in one of the previous podcasts, the last two, we talked about 33% of our members weren't even here for that trip through mediation. Talk to us a little bit about the lead up to that strike.
Seth Kornblum:
So as I recall, I think we were in negotiations for about two and a half years. I wasn't actively involved in the negotiations myself, but that's my recollection from the line pilot's perspective. And we'd gotten released to self-help and I was volunteering at the ALPA Strike Center at the time. So what really amazed us about the onset of the strike was the developments in the last few hours prior to it. Around that time, other airlines were getting released to self-help as well. And the trend was that they would get released to self-help, and then on the very last day of the deadline until the strike, usually a tentative agreement would come forward. And our negotiating teams from both the company side and the union side were still meeting in Washington DC on the last day leading up to the strike. And the company team had indicated they were going to dinner and were going to come back.
And I was the one sitting at the computer at the strike center tracking our fleet. And I noticed the private jet that the management team had taken to negotiations departing Washington DC heading back to our domicile. They had indicated in the room that they were just going to dinner, but in actuality they left and got on the airplane and abandoned negotiations with, I think it was about six hours remaining 'til the deadline. And so the actual onset of it was really more of a lockout because the company then, while that airplane was in route carrying the management team members, they canceled all the flights and basically had all our crews ferry airplanes back from maintenance spaces.
Mike Panebianco:
That night, it didn't happen in a vacuum. What was it like in the information phase leading up to that night?
Seth Kornblum:
I think ALPA had done a good job educating the membership, explaining the nuts and bolts of how the process works, all the way leading up to it. Leading up to the release for self-help, the fact that we couldn't just strike until we were actually released by the National Mediation Board. The possibility that a Presidential Emergency Board could be convened and stop the onset of the strike. And actually the background there at the time, the Delta pilot group, had also been going through negotiations. And actually the President at the time had come out in advance and said he would preempt any strike by the Delta pilots.
And so that made everyone in the industry nervous at the time because really it was undercutting the bargaining power we felt of the pilot groups. And so that was the context, and I think ALPA did a really good job and we were really well-prepared. We were actually at the Strike Center. We had already lined up train schedules, bus schedules, rental car availability. We were prepared to bring the entire pilot cadre home. We really thought we were going to have pilots stranded all over the place potentially. But of course that was not our hope. Our hope was that we would reach an agreement prior to the deadline. And our team, the union team, was ready, was there in Washington DC to do that. And it caught everyone by surprise when the company team left.
Amy Robinson:
When the strike started, talk about some of the concerns and the fears that you personally had and also what the ones that people you spoke to had?
Seth Kornblum:
Well, nobody wants to go on strike. I mean, of course, everyone's got people that are depending on them, family dependents, other loved ones. So nobody wants to go on strike. And of course there was the fear of loss of income. How long would it last? If we struck would the airline survive? That sort of thing. But on the other hand, that negotiation was really ugly. In fact, the company had taken 13 hostages during the negotiating process. And when I say hostages, I mean they fired 13 pilots during the negotiation process alleging that those particular pilots were involved in improper work actions, unauthorized work actions.
So we actually had some mixed emotions because we felt that going on strike was the opportunity to bring those 13 pilots back. So there was a rally cry to basically free our hostages, if you will. But no, there was fear. What's going to happen? Nobody had been through that. I don't think there had been a strike at the time. I think Eastern might have been the last significant strike prior to that, if I recall correctly.
Mike Panebianco:
So you said something interesting, and I think that's something that some of our pilots are wondering. SWAPA has come out and told the membership, "Don't make unnecessary enemies, don't do things that are going to bring negative attention to yourself or to our pilot group." When you mentioned hostages, what were some of the things that those pilots were accused of by management that led to those terminations?
Seth Kornblum:
Those all were surrounding allegations of "improper write-ups", which is still a bitter pill for me to swallow to this day because Christmas Eve, gosh, during one of the years leading up to the strike during the active negotiations, all of us at that company were served with restraining orders, basically threatening a $25,000 fine per pilot for any "improper writeup" and $100,000 to the union at the time. So things were really ugly. They really rattled our cage pretty hard.
Mike Panebianco:
I think that's a very important point to make is when we say do no harm, we're not at that point in our negotiation, but that's something that I think they needed to hear.
Seth Kornblum:
That was really a difficult time because there was a lot of pressure on us pilots to not write things up because we were seeing our friends get canned. And so that was a difficult thing. I mean, you still need to do your job. So every time I called in a maintenance writeup, they implemented a program where you had to give your employee number every time you called in over the radio for maintenance so they could enter into a database number of write-ups per pilot. So they were actively targeting. The other allegation that led to the terminations of at least one pilot or one or two, I think it's been a long time, allegations of excessively slow taxying.
Amy Robinson:
Oh, wow. That you can be written up for excessively slow taxing.
Seth Kornblum:
Isn't that crazy?
Amy Robinson:
Is kind of crazy.
Seth Kornblum:
So they were really going out of their way to target people in a way that was shocking.
Mike Panebianco:
I think that's one of the reasons why SWAPA is being very out front in saying, "Follow our instructions. Don't do things. Don't discuss illegal job actions." I know a lot of people think that there's a tongue in cheek approval to do things like that. And that's the fear that most of us have is that somebody's going to start a movement like that or they're going to say something and then it's going to get picked up. And we don't want our pilots to get themselves in trouble. We don't want to impact the security of our pilots and their families by engaging in anything like that.
Seth Kornblum:
Yeah, that's a great point, Mike. And not only the security of our pilots and their families, but also the security of the association itself. The court could impose very hefty fines upon the association and cause financial damage, which would limit our ability to do our jobs here at SWAPA.
Amy Robinson:
My question is, did they end up bringing all of those people back?
Seth Kornblum:
They did. That was part of our return to work agreement when we finally did ratify a contract offer, that was part of it, that they had to bring all the terminated pilots back.
Amy Robinson:
So those 89 days that you were on strike, I've heard this story before, but tell our listeners a little bit what that was like.
Seth Kornblum:
It was a rollercoaster. Yeah, it was an absolute rollercoaster. Good days and bad. And yeah, I would wake up each morning, go picket for a couple of hours and then I ended up picking up a part-time job. And I could get into that if you'd like, but so picket by morning, work a job by the afternoon, come back and try to socialize with some of your colleagues for a little boost and moral support and start all over again the next day. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Amy Robinson:
And your second job was?
Seth Kornblum:
Well, it's funny, in college I was a bus driver, so I got through school and I still have a commercial driver's license. So the part-time job I picked up was as a bus driver. And I was shocked when I showed up for the first day of work, and what they wanted me to do was drive the company's customers to nearby destination. It was like Cincinnati to Lexington, Kentucky, I believe. And I handed them the paperwork back and told them I quit. I couldn't do it. I wasn't going to participate in any activity that would basically undermine the strike. So the company was understanding about that and they said, "Hey, well we've got other vehicles, we've got limousines and vans. You don't have to carry these customers." And unbeknownst to me, they also had the crew contracts for transporting most of the airline crew in Cincinnati to the hotels. So I ended up being the hotel van driver for all the other airline crews coming in and out during that strike.
Amy Robinson:
So you were transporting crews and you're a pilot at that time. That must have been difficult for you in some ways, but also were there any positives that came out of that?
Seth Kornblum:
Yeah, it was definitely, like I mentioned, the whole strike was a rollercoaster and some of those trips in the van were rollercoaster-ish as well. Most of the time I just never let on that I was a striking pilot and I just took care of the customers, the crew. And occasionally though, if I heard the crews on board the van talking about the strike, occasionally I would chime in or correct some misinformation. And I was left really, there was one very impactful day. It was funny, I had a van, but I only had to pick up one pilot and it was a Delta MD11 captain, and he was a really pleasant guy and just started a conversation and saw our entire fleet park there. And so he struck up a conversation about strike and the impact on the city and what I thought of it.
And so I volunteered that I was a striking pilot myself, and we talked about some of the issues that we were on strike over. And so again, the company I worked for had the contracts for all the crews at the time that serviced Cincinnati. And as we pulled up to the downtown hotel that pretty much every airline stayed at, we said our goodbyes and he had rolled up a dollar bill to give me as my tip and wished him a good night and got back in the driver's seat of my van and I unrolled the dollar and realized that he had actually rolled up a couple of hundred dollars bills inside the dollar. And so I went in the lobby at the hotel to refuse it when I didn't feel right taking it. And at this point, there were two other company vehicles that had unloaded full crews.
And as I tried giving the money back to this Delta captain, he not only refused to take it, but he basically got on the pulpit in front of all these other airline crews and explained that not only must I take that money, but it was not just for me, it was for the good of the profession, the good of all of us. And as he was talking to me, someone had taken off their uniform hat and passed it around amongst all these crews. It still chokes me up to this day. And when the hat got back to me, there were hundreds of dollars in there. I mean, really amazing. And I got to say that without choking out, but yeah, it was really pretty impactful and really a great display with unity in the profession. It was amazing. It's still, as you can tell, still chokes me up to this day.
Mike Panebianco:
I think that story hits home for so many people. And you and I were talking to new hires a few days back, and they're all here for their new hire dinner, brunch, depending on which time of day they came here. And we talked to them about the culture of our pilots and how pilot culture is really what will always be here for them and regardless of what they're seeing at the company and the fact that we're going through all this, that's part one. You may not know it, but you signed up to be a part of this fraternity, to be a part of a union, a group of people that will take care of you and will reach out and make sure that you have that future.
But the other thing, like what you said is the generosity. And that's something that I've witnessed countless times here from our pilots, from a guy's house burning down while he was away at a family member's funeral to meal trains for people who are dealing with cancers and things like that. I mean, all of us, I've seen and I think our staff has seen it, I know I've seen it with our line pilots. I lost a classmate and a good friend from a former airline all in a matter of two days, Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. And to see the outpouring of support from this pilot group and it's industry-wide, I think pilots are very generous people.
Seth Kornblum:
I don't disagree. And I think especially here at Southwest, I've always been impressed with the generosity of our pilots, even though you can throw out all the cheap tipping jokes you want at the restaurant, when push comes to shove, when someone's in trouble, our pilots routinely do step up for each other and not just for each other, but also for our other employees around us.
Mike Panebianco:
Given what you just shared with us. And that's a very emotional thing. And I think there's a lot of fear in our pilot group surrounding, "Man, will this really happen?" Anyone who is here for the Christmas meltdown saw what happens with this company just for a couple of days and to go out 89 days on a strike, that's a lot for people to consider. My question to you is, if you had to go through all of that all over again, how would you have prepared yourself, your family, for that event?
Seth Kornblum:
Luckily, the union did a good job there preparing us well ahead of time. None of us were overly well compensated there, and so they prepared us well, reminding us for years, don't make purchases you don't need to be making right now. Save up, build that strike fund and that comfort of that money in the bank is what's going to get you through the adversity. So I was lucky. I did a good job preparing. I squirreled away a lot of money. Of course it also helped I did not have children at the time, so I had less to worry about. But even now I would just say, just save your money. Don't be making extravagant purchases that you don't need.
Amy Robinson:
So Seth, strike is a very scary word for a lot of people. It was obviously scary for you at the time and you had a lot of things that happened during that time. But tell me, what would you say are some of the positives that came from that period?
Seth Kornblum:
Well, we definitely secured some of the contractual improvements we were looking for, specifically a B-fund type retirement and NEC that we did not have before. And we also got new language, which stopped some of the most egregious scheduling abuses and it's been so long, I don't recall many of the other specifics, but we definitely made much better progress towards an industry-leading contract that that pilot group deserved. So we did achieve those many of those goals.
Amy Robinson:
What would you say were some positive outcomes for you personally?
Seth Kornblum:
I guess just a reminder that flying is not your identity. That was a real struggle for a lot of the pilots initially because for so many of us, we've worked so hard to get into these jobs. Some guys, it's tied to their identity. If your email address contains the words 737 or Jet Pilot, blah, blah, [email protected], I'm looking at you. And there's nothing wrong with that necessarily. I'm not judging, but I just point it out just as a reminder to people that that's not your whole identity. You're a person, maybe you're a parent, maybe a sibling. There's so much more that defines you than just this job as an airline pilot. And so that period was a great reminder to me that there's more to life than just than this job, than flying the line.
Mike Panebianco:
What responsibility do you think we have? You said it's more than our identity, but could you expand some maybe especially for pilots who, I don't know about how long it took you to get here, but it took me over a decade to get here and qualifying for food stamps and really not making a lot of money. What do you think a pilot's responsibility is to other pilots in making good choices on the SAV vote and to actually hold the line on a strike?
Seth Kornblum:
I guess I think back to that moving moment in that hotel lobby back in Cincinnati where that Delta captain insisted on putting hundreds of dollars in my hand and soliciting contributions from the rest of the crew members around, we all have a responsibility to build a profession. Not just as Southwest Airlines pilots, but as pilots in the industry. We all need to jack up our corner of the house, make it better for those that come behind us.
Amy Robinson:
I know that's a personal goal of yours as the future of the pilot profession. Would you say that these things are important in securing the future for your children? For other future aviators that are maybe just starting out?
Seth Kornblum:
Without a doubt. I've got teenage boys. I'm teaching them both how to fly, and I want to make sure that when they have their turn flying the line that unlike what myself and other Southwest Airlines pilots face of not being able to tell your family when you're coming home, I want them to have contractual language, whether they work at Southwest Airlines or they work somewhere else, someday, I want them to have language that protects them and so they can actually tell their family, "Hey, barring any storms or unusual i-rup, I'll be home on this day."
Amy Robinson:
So I would say tie those two things together for our listeners, because I think a lot of them would say, "I do want these things, but I don't understand what holding the line or voting us on SAV", how does that in your mind further that?
Seth Kornblum:
All these contractual provisions that we enjoy, none of them were just given. They all had to be bargained for. And this SAV vote is just part of that process. It's unfortunate that we're here, but we are. Right, wrong or indifferent, this is where we are. And the path forward is the correct vote, the yes vote on this SAV to further the process and get us those improvements for both ourselves, our families, and the future generations of pilots to come after us.
Mike Panebianco:
Seth, just say I'm a no voter and I've heard everything from, "This company's been so good to me", to, "It's against my religious beliefs. I'm voting no." What's your best argument to change my mind?
Seth Kornblum:
I would say even if you have some personal conviction that doesn't allow you to vote yes, I would say think about the rest of the group and I'd probably ask you to abstain from voting altogether to make sure that yes SAV vote is a good, strong showing. We need it. Our pilots need it, our families need it, and those that come after us need it.
Amy Robinson:
My final question to you, Seth, is would you be voting yes to the SAV this time?
Seth Kornblum:
Absolutely.
Amy Robinson:
And why would you not vote yes.
Seth Kornblum:
I can't come up with a good reason not to vote yes. Basically, a no vote to the strike authorization vote is basically a no vote on better, clearer language. A no vote is no to better benefits and better disability plans. A yes vote is the right way to continue along this process to get us the contract we need.
Amy Robinson:
And do you believe that in the room this will have an impact in terms of moving the needle and getting us where we want to go?
Seth Kornblum:
I do.
Amy Robinson:
Thank you to Seth for taking the time to talk with us today. We really do appreciate your valuable knowledge and you sharing your story with us.
Mike Panebianco:
Please remember that we want to hear from you. If you have any feedback, please drop us a line at [email protected].
Amy Robinson:
Finally, today's bonus number is six. That's the number of pilots at Comair who voted no on the SAV as Seth pointed out earlier. While that number seems like a very small number, it is that type of participation needed here at SWAPA to move the needle and finally get the contract you deserve.