Amy Robinson:
Today's SWAPA number is 8/31. That's the date of SWAPA's nationwide picket that will take place in 5 of the 11 domiciles. This historic picket is just one of the many things we have prepared over the next few months.
Kurt Heidemann:
So today on the show, we're going to talk to President Casey Murray and Strike Committee Chair John Murphy about upcoming events and strategic plans for our organization.
Amy Robinson:
I'm Amy Robinson.
Kurt Heidemann:
And I'm Kurt Heidemann. And here's our interview with Casey and John.
Amy Robinson:
So, Casey, walk us through some of the things that have happened since we closed our SAV and got the results.
Casey Murray:
Thanks, Amy. We closed the SAV and that was to get rolling on several of the planning of events that we have upcoming. One of them was the mobile billboards, which, last week, we launched, and we'll be launching next week as well. And then, the following weeks, our mobile billboards will be out of Dallas and owned to board members and neighborhoods that live elsewhere. And so, we got those going. We have several billboards up and several more coming up across the system. And then, we plan the 24-hour picket. And as we all know, that one was canceled. But, really, our point of that, I think we got across. The media, picked up on it, had several questions about what the purpose was of 24 hours. And, really, it was to show that we are pilots and we work 24 hours a day, holidays, weekends, every day of the year. And we expect that our Company would have the same commitment to closing this contract sooner than later and meeting with us more.
Amy Robinson:
So do you think this has changed the Company's behavior in any way?
Casey Murray:
That's yet to be seen. Having meetings that are productive and the work is being done outside of the meetings, so that when we come to the meetings, the Company is prepared and ready to make offers and there can be some negotiations that take place is really what we're hoping for. So, hopefully, over the next few weeks, we're going to see some progress and, hopefully, there is a commitment from senior leadership at Southwest to labor relations that it's time to get this done and it's time to close some sections.
Kurt Heidemann:
Case, a lot of our pilots expected a shift in the news coming from negotiations. And as we know, it's been business as usual. You compare that with Delta and Alaska who both got deals shortly after the SAV closed, why are we not seeing the same thing? Or how is it different?
Casey Murray:
That's really a question for Bob Jordan. And we have continually communicated our desire with him that we need to see progress, and the progress that we're making today really should have been made a year ago and through last summer. So we're behind. And that speaks to where our SAV was as far as comparing it to Delta and Alaska. They were a lot closer. But we absolutely have to have the Company show up and we've got to start closing some sections. And I want to be clear, we don't expect them to come in and start agreeing to everything that we've offered. We do expect analytical approach from their end as to why they don't want to do something and we will negotiate from that. So again, SWAPA has been prepared and has been making this same... I mean, I know I've done two previous podcasts where I've said the same thing. The Company has to come and has to be willing to negotiate. And, again, coming out of the SAV, and the fact that we are on the road to a strike, needs to be addressed by senior leadership at Southwest.
Amy Robinson:
Are you a little surprised that Jody has not asked to be released from mediation yet?
Casey Murray:
No. We had lengthy discussions in the made board meeting about timing. And today, it is in Jody's hands. And that's going to happen sooner than later, especially with very little progress that is being made. And I would argue that we've made some progress, but we're not making the progress that, really, our pilots deserve, the public deserves, and that's going to have to change.
Kurt Heidemann:
So if SWAPA does ask for release, do you think that the NMB is going to release us immediately from mediation? Or what goes into that decision from the NMB to release a union from mediation?
Casey Murray:
So we will send a letter to the National Mediation Board itself. And they will take input from the mediators, the ones that are in the room and are seeing the progress or lack thereof. And a decision will be made from there, and they may or may not grant it. But regardless, there has to be a recognition on the regulatory side, the NMB, as well as the Company, that this is where we're at and we can't continue to not close sections and get closer to an agreement as time goes by.
And that's what we've been seeing is just a shell game of playing. And I can't tell you how much I've heard from the Company's side about the rewrite. The fact of the matter is, it's a negotiation and we fully expect language to be negotiated and the Company has their concerns, and they should. And it is our job to listen to those concerns as well. But at the end of the day, this is a pilot's market and we recognize that there will be no concessions, but the work has to be done and we've been willing to do that work, and our Company has to hear that and has to commit to drawing this to a close much sooner than later.
Amy Robinson:
So, John, let me ask you this question. If SWAPA does ask for release, are we ready to go as an organization?
John Murphy:
Pilots voted that they were ready to strike and SWAPA will be ready to strike. What has been the most interesting part is WestJet's recent push all the way up to a strike deadline gave us a frontline seat. We have a pilot embedded in their strike center in Toronto, and it actually really inspired our group to focus on the planning that we could accomplish now. And we don't have to wait for an impasse and we don't have to wait for a cooling off period. And we're now actually getting ahead of our forecast of being strike-ready and putting pieces in place so that all the different committees and organizations are ready to conduct a strike should be released at the president's direction.
Amy Robinson:
Do you think Southwest is ready for that, though?
John Murphy:
I don't think Southwest is ready to run the network. I certainly don't think they're ready to run a strike.
Kurt Heidemann:
Murph, let me ask you this. If Jody does ask to be released, we still have pilots and we've seen them posting on social media and we've heard some of the talking points from management pilots that say we'll never get released. And I know you've talked about it before, but what do you have to say to them?
John Murphy:
SWAPA will be ready. And I'm asking each pilot to be ready. No pilot should ever state that we will never be released. It might be difficult to be released, it might be a challenge to be released, there are many steps to get to a release, but the only exit to the RLA is a contract or a release to self-help.
Casey Murray:
I hit [inaudible] last podcast, I hit it in all of our SAV rallies. It's really important to look at, holistically, what happened with the railroads. Railroads and the 75,000 employees, the 12 unions that represented, were bargaining with the companies for their contracts. We're moving 70% of intermodal freight. It had gotten so far down the path that industry had stopped shipping perishable goods and stopped shipping hazardous waste across rails, which, again, 70% of all intermodal freight in the US moves by rail. That was about to stop. There was nowhere for the stream of commerce of this country to go, but yet they were going and came very close within hours of going on strike. Ultimately, eight of the largest unions signed a deal, and then they were ratified. That left four unions that represented a very tiny amount and they were the ones that got congress shoved a contract down their throat.
But congress was looking at the fact that the vast majority of those employees agreed to a contract and felt that that small group should have as well. The important point and what has to be remembered is it is congresses and it's the presidents to make sure that interstate commerce continues. And it was about to stop. If we compare that to Southwest Airlines, our passengers have many other options. They have other airlines, they have rail, they have cars, interstate commerce will not stop, which makes it even more incumbent upon SWAPA to realize that this is real and we have to address it that way. We have to be prepared. I'm extremely happy with where our strike committee has gotten us and looking forward to the build outs of the strike centers that are coming, and I think John will talk about that here shortly. But there's a lot of respect in the fact that this could go to a strike and it is up to us to put as much pressure on the Company as we can to get a deal done.
Amy Robinson:
So speaking of making the Company come to bargain, we did have that 24-hour picket set up as we mentioned earlier, but why did we decide to cancel that?
Casey Murray:
And we got some questions about that. And, again, I addressed it a few moments ago when I was talking about that we now have meetings scheduled, and the Company is committed, and the NMB has directed that we do meet in our off weeks. And that was the big part of it. Yes, there was a tragic loss in the hotel where negotiations were taking place and it strongly affected the Company's team, but it also affected ours. They had been dealing with Richard for two years. And so, it was hard on everyone. So it was to take a pause, it was respectful.
But we are moving forward, and later this week, we are meeting. It's not going to stop the plans, it's not going to stop our fortitude to doing the things that we have to do to bring the Company to the table and make meaningful offers. There's going to be a nationwide picket on the anniversary of the amendable date of August 31st. And by nationwide... It's not going to be all the domiciles just because of logistics, but it's going to be five domiciles. We're going to have more as we move into the fall, especially there are numerous opportunities with things that our board of directors at Southwest are doing, with Gary Kelly and Bob Jordan as well. So there's going to be lots of opportunities for our pilots to be engaged and we want to keep them engaged.
Kurt Heidemann:
Okay. So I'm going to ask you questions that are maybe a little tough, but some of the pilots are saying... This is out on social media or some emails that the union have gotten. They're concerned that we're taking our foot off the gas by not meeting this week or leaving early on Thursday. And then, another comment that we have heard is a line pilot will pass away and that doesn't mean that we don't keep business going on. So why is this different?
Casey Murray:
And I understand those questions, and I spent all last week on social media trying to answer some of those questions. And I think there was some respectful discussion about it. But this occurred in the hotel where we were meeting, where our teams were meeting. And there was no way the Company was going to meet last week, and I understand that. And they probably shouldn't have. I don't think that we're doing anything different for someone. We've had several pilots pass away who are members of our seniority list and I don't think we're doing anything different. We're just addressing it on the negotiating side.
As far as taking our foot off the gas, I equate it to taking our foot off their throat, and we're not. The pressure will continue. A matter of fact, really, taking a 10-day pause is really just we're going to be at it even stronger starting this week. Billboards in our board of directors neighborhoods is fairly light, but that's going to change as we move into the fall when we start putting pilots in their neighborhoods. But that's what it's going to take. And our pilots have expressed a keen interest in participating and doing whatever they can, and we will continue it. The message within the media as well as on our billboards is going to change, and it's going to continue to change as we move through the summer and move into the fall.
Kurt Heidemann:
Case, for those people who aren't aware, you just mentioned mobile billboards at board members' homes. Explain exactly what that is for people who aren't following us on social media or aren't aware of what's going on.
Casey Murray:
Well, mobile billboards are trucks that have LED billboards on them. And we're driving them around their homes, in their neighborhoods, as well as... And this will be moving into the next phase, but into places where they do business, they have interests, places they go. And so, those that aren't aware, yeah, that's the first step, coming out of the SAV, is starting to address our board of directors of Southwest Airlines.
Amy Robinson:
So people that don't know this, all of them typically have a very pointed message to whatever board of directors member that they are sending those trucks to. But my question to you, Casey, is, strategically, why are we targeting those Southwest Airlines Board of Directors?
Casey Murray:
It's a great question, and it's very important to understand the nuances of why we're doing that. Bob Jordan has been our CEO for 16 months, and nothing's changed. We very specifically gave him a year and didn't really see any movement in negotiations. We had numerous contact with him. We expressed why we needed a contract, why they need a contract even more than we do. And that didn't happen. So now, there are people above Mr. Jordan and we're going to put some pressure on them, as well as Wall Street, which... I was in New York two weeks ago and met with our two largest institutional investors as well as spoke at a buy-side analyst forum. But putting out there that there is risk with Southwest Airlines. So I also met with regulators in DC and expressed some concern as we move forward.
Amy Robinson:
So, Casey, what would you say to pilots who are just very excited to try to help and pitch in and do something eminently?
Casey Murray:
It's very important to understand that any type of helping or, dare I say, wildcat action puts great risk at SWAPA and our pilots as a whole, individually as well. And we will ask and be very clear in our instructions of when we need our pilots to either show up somewhere, or as we get to an actual strike, there's going to be very clear instructions as to expectations and there's going to be no uncertainty as to what we need to be doing.
Where we have to be this summer with the situation that Southwest has put us in, with the schedules, the line densities, the fatigue, we have to continue to focus on safety. That has to be number one. That is what truly gives us the power in the room. Our pilots are the most productive, they're also the safest, exposing themselves to the most liability. So I hope, in a lot of the things that we talked about today, there's an understanding that we are working and we are working every angle to make sure that we have a successful conclusion to these contract negotiations sooner than later. But let us do that work. Show up, do your job, and do it better than you've ever done it before. And when we need you, we 100% know you'll be there, but you will know when we need you.
Kurt Heidemann:
So, Murph, Casey mentioned the nationwide picket, but what are some other upcoming events that the pilots can participate in or what are the details of that that you know of that you can share right now?
John Murphy:
Well, the next event that pilots are invited to attend is an informational picket in Chicago at the Southwest Spirit Party on August 14th. And that will be capacity-restricted due to the venue. But once again, it'll be similar to what we conducted in Nashville in September of last year. The nationwide informational picket on August 31st to draw attention to the fact that we are three years post amendable under this contract, that will be a system-wide picket, as Casey mentioned, in Atlanta, Baltimore, Houston, Chicago, and Los Angeles. And without exception, that will be open to as many pilots as are able to attend. That is the Thursday before Labor Day weekend.
And then, in September, there is a second Spirit Party in Denver, on the 20th, midweek. And the details will be published before the bid lines open for each month. And those details will allow you to make your plans happen. Additionally, and Casey alluded to it, we've sent picket signs to strike coordinators in each domicile to be ready so that we can immediately react to and act tactically to draw attention to the stalled pace and content of negotiations. So if you get a phone call from SWAPA saying, "Hey, what are you doing tomorrow? Can you help?" Please be ready to step up and say yes and stand for your fellow pilots.
Kurt Heidemann:
So popup picket events.
John Murphy:
A popup or a flash mob, but it will be small tactical groups, small cadres in public, and almost certainly, non-air airport locations where pilots in uniform carrying picket signs will certainly stand out. We hope you're able to participate.
Amy Robinson:
So a little earlier, Murph, you mentioned strike center, and Casey alluded to it as well. Can you talk about what exactly that is and let our listeners know what that the plan is for that?
John Murphy:
The strike operations center will be headquartered here and in Dallas and in the SWAPA building, but it will necessarily be complimented by regional strike centers through all our domiciles and through several other airport areas, either large commuter cities or if there's a maintenance presence. And the point of a strike operations center is fundamentally four things. We are tracking all aircraft, we are tracking and supporting all pilots, we are providing resources to pilots and their families, and most importantly, we're providing clear and unambiguous communication about the status of the strike. And that starts long before a strike deadline passes.
Kurt Heidemann:
So with those four, I think support is pretty clear, but talk about the tracking of aircraft and tracking of pilots. What does that mean and what's the purpose of those?
John Murphy:
Well, the fundamental purpose of a strike is to ensure zero aircraft movement and zero revenue for the Company. And the way that the union can control that is by ensuring we know, prior to a strike deadline expiring, where every aircraft is and where every pilot is. SWAPA is developing a check-in program that will be run through the SWAPA app that everyone should have downloaded on their mobile device. And that will allow every pilot to check in on a 24-hour basis that you are aware that we are on strike and that you are in position to support a regional strike center or you are on the road and you are awaiting direction, be it be released to go home, you're waiting for the strike to be announced that it has come to a conclusion and we are returning to work. Aircraft tracking is aircraft movement of any kind, that is revenue flight, non-revenue flying, maintenance-check flights, reposition flights, Southwest flights that are operated under alternate call signs or under lease arrangements that the Company attempts to utilize in order to circumvent the union's withdrawal of service.
Amy Robinson:
And you said that also providing resources to pilots who are out on strike. What could those entail?
John Murphy:
The regional strike centers will be coordinating locally with the committees every pilot should be already familiar with. That includes family outreach, the CISM team, and LIFT. A strike is a very challenging and stressful time for the union and for each individual pilot. And SWAPA will be there to provide all the resources to ensure that our pilots enter and exit a strike healthy and whole.
Amy Robinson:
And are we in a good position that our strike operations center would be available and ready to go should we get to the point of needing a strike?
John Murphy:
Well, underneath the RLA, we have a 30-day window from impasse, during the cooling off period, before a strike center would open. And the benefit of having been exposed to WestJet's set up... And, I mean, they were at the deadline of their regional strike center, is that it really exposed to us that we can put a lot of the programs and planning into place ahead of time and that we don't need to wait for that 30-day countdown. In fact, we're going to pursue a path towards establishing a regional strike center and we're using Chicago, because it's just an excellent location, all the way up to signing leases. And we're not going to invest any money or time in the building, but all of the steps and processes that it takes to ensure that the local strike center could autonomously run and provide support services to the local group of pilots could track aircraft locally and could conduct 24-hour picketing operations outside the airport so that the other domiciles will be prepared with all and have all those challenges answered ahead of time.
Kurt Heidemann:
Do you anticipate each domicile will have its own regional strike center?
John Murphy:
Each domicile will have its own regional strike center operated and run by the local strike coordinators and a large group of volunteers to include pilots and their spouses.
Kurt Heidemann:
How about non-domicile bases? The Nashvilles or San Antonios of the world?
John Murphy:
There will also be some supplemental regional strike centers to include those large commuter population cities, like the Hill Country, San Antonio and Austin, we'll probably have one regional strike center, but it will be covering two airports, and then some of the other areas where there's large commuter populations, Salt Lake, Nashville. And to be honest, because we are tracking aircraft and pilots, locations that maybe don't have as many pilots, but they conduct maintenance. So Seattle, Sacramento, Tampa will also have union pilots in position to ensure that the strike is being conducted properly.
Kurt Heidemann:
So when you say tracking aircraft, are you talking about sitting out there at the fence line with a pair of binoculars and watching airplanes?
John Murphy:
If that's what it takes, that's what it takes. Certainly, in today's modern age, there are innumerable apps and programs to track call signs and to track aircraft. We are developing relationships with our fellow unions, PATCO, the Air Traffic Controllers Union, and we have multiple contingency plans to ensure that Southwest Airlines is not able to move an aircraft under another call sign.
Casey Murray:
John, that's a really good point and I think it's critical to understand that, as you said, talking to PATCO and talking to several of the other unions. And we've had discussions with, of course, the internal Southwest unions and will continue to have those and how they will and can support.
But even more importantly, last weekend, so eight, nine days ago, I spent time with several of the largest unions in the country that aren't associated with Southwest, but do support Southwest on both airside and groundside, support in many of our stations and speaking and gaining support and how they could support us as well that they've expressed an interest, they are the ones that reached out, and want to know what they can do. And so, it is an ever widening net in discussions, and that is all going on every day. So it is a huge undertaking, but it's also a huge bit of preparation to make sure that, if we get there, that we have the support we need, we have the logistics that we need, as John was explaining, and that our pilots are aware and take whatever steps we can to make sure that we have a successful conclusion to the strike and getting a contract that our pilots deserve.
Amy Robinson:
Okay, so I'm going to go ahead and ask this question of you, Casey. Do you think that any of the things that we've spoken about today will move the needle as far as negotiations?
Casey Murray:
Everything that's been said is to apply pressure to a successful conclusion, a successful conclusion of negotiating our contract. So we are preparing for the worst and we're preparing to make sure that whatever we have to do is for a successful conclusion to our negotiations to our contract. And whether that is getting to a strike or not, it is critical that we keep that in focus. It is not to get to a strike. A strike is part of what it might take to get to the successful conclusion of our contract negotiations. We want to apply pressure, apply pressure to Southwest Board, to the analysts at Wall Street, to the investors on Wall Street, to the media, and to our customers to make sure that we don't get to that point and that we have a successful conclusion prior to pulling that lever of asking for and receiving authorization to self-help.
Kurt Heidemann:
So, Murph, given the list of things that we've talked about already, are there other things that are coming that you haven't talked about yet? Or should Southwest expect even more than what we've talked about here on this episode?
Casey Murray:
Yes, absolutely. Everything that we're doing is to provide impetus to the company to come to the table and negotiate. A 24-hour picket, multi pickets, and all the things that we've talked about, we have to be prepared and we have to prepare if we were to get to self-help.
But again, remember, all of us together, everyone individually together has to supply Jody and his entire team with the strength to either pass across the impasse letter. But again, all of those things are just trying to get to a deal. We recognize that the Company needs this more than we do. We recognize that the Company is having problems keeping people here or people coming here. We are hearing more and more from the interview team on the difficulty in getting applicants. And so, all of these things are just trying to get a deal and trying to get us to a negotiated solution that provides the contract, which, let's not forget, this is a contract. This is an agreement between both parties. And the Company absolutely needs this for every pilot here, but also those that are waiting in the wings and those that haven't been born yet.
Kurt Heidemann:
Thank you to Casey and John for taking the time to talk to us today. We appreciate them laying out what has happened and what to expect going forward.
Amy Robinson:
Remember that we do want to hear from you. If you have any suggestions for us, podcast ideas, or any feedback at all, please drop us a line at [email protected].
Kurt Heidemann:
And finally, today's bonus number is zero. As professional pilots, we all have a duty that if a strike is called, zero pilots cross the picket line and zero aircraft are flown by Southwest Airlines. Zero is the only correct answer if SWAPA is forced to go on strike.