Amy Robinson:
Today's SWAPA number is 3025. That's the total number of aircraft mechanics and related professionals at Southwest Airlines, which are represented by the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. AMFA and SWAPA have worked closely together over the last few years to help one another out during contract negotiations.
Kurt Heidemann:
So on today's show we spoke with Scott King, National Safety and Standards Director for AMFA about maintenance issues, AMFAs focuses, and how pilots and mechanics can best work together.
Amy Robinson:
I'm Amy Robinson.
Kurt Heidemann:
And I'm Kurt Heidemann. And here's our interview with Scott.
Amy Robinson:
So Scott, welcome to the show. Can you give our listeners a little bit of a background on what you do for AMFA specifically?
Scott King:
I'll just go all the way back to the beginning. I went to high school here in Dallas. I graduated in 1986 and I went to Skyline High School. It's actually where I started my aviation career, so to speak. Went to Tarrant County Junior College, finished up my AMP license and then my first major airline that ever went to work for was Pan Am. Yeah, I'm aging myself a little bit, but that was 1989. I was there a very short while. I actually got out there before they went bankrupt, fully bankrupt. Worked at Delta for just shy of 20 years most of that time at DFW. And when they reduced that base and closed it down, bounced around the industry for a little bit, spent a short time across the field over here at Gulfstream. And then finally landed my dream job here at Southwest, April 1st, 2009 and been here ever since.
Became involved in the union probably around 2013, 2014, and then 2016 came into national office. So I am the National Safety and Standards Director. I cover the entire United States and Canada now. I help oversee all of our locals. We have five different locals currently in their safety and standards realm.
Kurt Heidemann:
When you talk about five locals, is that how AMFA is organized? Is it one national with five... What are the five locals?
Scott King:
So the five locals that we currently have, I'll start numerically. Local four, which is based in Chicago. Local 11, which is based here in Dallas. Local 14 based in Seattle, Local 18 based in Houston and Local 32 based in Phoenix. The last one, Local 32, has the unique position of covering two different airlines within it's local. It covers, I want to say 17 different stations. So it's pretty expansive with that Local. But among those locals we cover Southwest Airlines, Alaska Airlines, Horizon Airlines, Sun Country Airlines, just recently Spirit Airlines. And then in Canada we cover L3 Harris, they're a contractor for the military.
Kurt Heidemann:
And all those are in Phoenix or is everything else just Southwest? Or how does that even split up?
Scott King:
So Local 18 is all Southwest. Local 11 is all Southwest. Local four is all Southwest. Local 14 is all Alaska Airlines. And then Local 32 has Southwest and Alaska Airlines.
Kurt Heidemann:
Okay.
Scott King:
Spirit and Sun Country have yet to be put into locals they are in the very beginning stages of getting their contract done and starting negotiations with those respective companies.
Amy Robinson:
So I have a question. How do you balance those sort of local versus national issues? I know you said some of them are Southwest specific, but how do you balance those two?
Scott King:
So a lot of times, I'll just give a for instance, when I get contacted from SWAPA, I figure out what city and what local would handle that.
Amy Robinson:
So what are some national issues then that would be larger?
Scott King:
Good question. So we have an ASAP program, just like the pilots do. I oversee that program as well. That's each airline specific. But we have a very good robust ASAP program here at Southwest. We have a good working relationship with the FAA and the ASAP issues can take you all over the country. So just recently we had a couple of ASAPs that were very similar in nature between Southwest and Alaska Airlines. So my spidey sense so to speak, went off and I thought, well, maybe we had an aircraft issue, we had an equipment issue. After getting both of our ASAP representatives together along with myself and we talked to all the specifics of the incidents, would come to find out that they were human factor incidents and just coincidental, but it was very, very eerie to see the similar situations that happened at the same time. So national being able to reach in between these different locals and resolve that and verify that it wasn't a manufacturer issue or an equipment issue turned out to be a very positive thing.
Kurt Heidemann:
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. I would think that obviously Southwest being the 737 experts, having access to Southwest and then Alaska, who if anybody else were experts it would be Alaska with the 737 up there in Seattle. To have both of those operating under one organization has to be very beneficial for identifying some of these aircraft specific issues.
Scott King:
Oh yes. And we trade information just on a very macro level, but there's lessons learned between each system. So it's a very positive thing.
Amy Robinson:
So SWAPA And AMFA have had a pretty close relationship throughout our existence. What would you say about the relationship between the mechanics and the pilots?
Scott King:
I would say overall it's very positive. So far as we're 737 based, we got the world's best pilot for the 737. I believe also we got the world's best mechanics. One example of that where I saw that to really come to light was when we had the max issue and we were meeting I think about once a month back then, and you could see the level of experience and the expertise in the room and trading that information and seeing things from every perspective was really positive experience.
Kurt Heidemann:
Scott, tell us a little bit about a typical day in the life of a mechanic. What's a typical duty day? How many days a week or month? How many hours a day? What's typical?
Scott King:
I'll just take a line mechanic for an example. Days and evening shift line mechanics work eight hours a day, five days a week, varied days off. Typical day for them will be tire and brake changes and then handling any gate calls. It can be anything from avionics equipment to coffee makers to tires and brakes. Our graveyard shift guys, they all work 10-hour shifts four nights a week and they handle more of the heavy loads. So they will do more of the scheduled maintenance and the more in-depth troubleshooting and longer task that are required. Every airplane's looked at by a mechanic at least every three days I believe it is right now, in addition to daily walkarounds and things like that.
In the hangar world, there's really not a typical day in the life. You may come in one evening and work on a heavy structures project doing aircraft modifications. There's always something challenging to do there. We currently do four lines of heavy maintenance here in Dallas and then we have line operations all over the United States. All of our mechanics are well versed in the 737. So that's the best thing we got going for us is that we're able to maintain that expertise in one type of aircraft.
Kurt Heidemann:
So that's the typical mechanic schedule. A thing that we're dealing with a lot on the pilot side of course is reassignments and JAs. Is that a factor for the mechanics? Are they getting a lot of unscheduled duties?
Scott King:
It comes with a territory, especially in the line environment because, let's just say they're sent out to the airplane to do their schedule checks and then whatever you find as a result of inspecting the airplane. I'll just use this for an example. During the spring especially is lightning strike. We get a real big spring weather lightning strike phenomenon I guess is the way to put it. And with the number of flights that this airline operates, just a fact of life so to speak. So you'll see that lightning strike inspection and log book entries go up, especially in the spring. And as far as unscheduled maintenance, that's a huge challenge to address.
Kurt Heidemann:
Do we still fly airplanes down to San Salvador for maintenance?
Scott King:
Yes, we do.
Kurt Heidemann:
And what's AMFA's position on that? Is that a scope issue for you or safety or?
Scott King:
It's a scope issue definitely. It's always been a safety concern because of outsourcing work outside the country. We try to focus on our legislative realm of things. We try to focus on that safety aspect of that. We want to maintain the exact same standard abroad as here in the United States. So legislatively, we have been pushing for drug testing standard. Currently, the vendor in El Salvador does have testing standards, but it's still concerning at times.
Kurt Heidemann:
That letter of agreement, is that between them and the company?
Scott King:
Yes.
Kurt Heidemann:
Okay. So it's a scope issue but is it in violation of your contract or is that out?
Scott King:
No, it's within the contract. It was negotiated at the last contract to not exceed, I want to say, eight lines in an El Salvador or any foreign repair station.
Kurt Heidemann:
And is that something that AMFA would like to see brought back in-house?
Scott King:
Yes, absolutely. Just from the aspect of contractually employing more mechanics here at Southwest, but also from the safety standpoint.
Kurt Heidemann:
Your aspect or your angle's mostly safety, but something that is front centered to our pilots right now is contract negotiations. Where is AMFA in the negotiating cycle?
Scott King:
So our contract becomes amendable in August of 2024 and we can open up our negotiations one year before. So right now we're in the very beginning stages of getting out the word to get contract proposals in. Now it's all handled through each local and then it'll collectively come together at a national level via our airline representatives. So we have four in the Southwest system.
Amy Robinson:
So last time SWAPAs contract negotiations were open at the same time as AMFAs. And so we did a lot of collaboration on that and it was pretty contentious for us, but I know it was kind of even worse for y'all.
Scott King:
Yeah.
Amy Robinson:
What are you feeling like it's going to be this time around?
Scott King:
There hasn't been a whole lot of talk, quite frankly. We're hoping for the best as always. I'm not really privy to a lot of that until towards the end of the process based on our council, our frontline guys, our four airline representatives. We've got four very good ones right now. And in addition to the contract proposals and things like that, they also handle all the grievances and arbitrations throughout the system. So they meet weekly and discuss their issues. There's a lot of cross communication between all of them and we will just be prepared for getting the process started and hopefully not have a fleet of negotiation that we had last time.
Kurt Heidemann:
How long was it? I think ours was four and a half years or so. It was even longer for you last time, wasn't it?
Scott King:
Six and a half years.
Kurt Heidemann:
Oh gosh.
Scott King:
Approximately.
Amy Robinson:
Wow. And you don't open until you said August?
Scott King:
August of next year.
Amy Robinson:
'23.
Scott King:
Mm-hm.
Amy Robinson:
Okay.
Kurt Heidemann:
Talk a little bit about that. That's something that I find interesting. You've got line mechanics, you've got hangar mechanics. What other sort of groups do you have to account for and is it really that different as far as negotiating work rules or contract provisions for them?
Scott King:
So under our main contract we cover all the mechanics, whether they be line or hanger, back shop mechanics as well, our ground support equipment mechanics. The technical instructors are included in that contract as well as our maintenance control folks. We have separate contracts for our appearance technicians, which they're in the process of sewing up their contracts so to speak for this next period. And facilities maintenance technicians, they are under a different contract as well. And they are in the process of starting their negotiations right now. So we have a lot going on at AMFA. Also, the work group for Alaska Airlines is getting ready to open their contract negotiations as well.
Kurt Heidemann:
It doesn't sound like everybody at AMFA is an A&P though. It sounds like you have various levels.
Scott King:
Correct. So under our contract right now, the only positions we have right now that don't require an A&P license would be our ground support equipment technicians and appearance technicians. But there are avenues for either one of those work groups to become AMPs. We have an apprenticeship program. So once you get a license and you don't have the experience requirement, you can enter into the apprenticeship program, which is 18 months long. And then once you successfully complete that, then you can bid into the system and become a mechanic anywhere in the system there's an opening.
Amy Robinson:
So in terms of your contracts, is there something that you already know is going to be a front runner for you in terms of things that have to be improved?
Scott King:
Well, that's where we're unique in the associations that represent mechanics because it's up to our membership to submit for those proposals. Then those proposals are prioritized once they're submitted. It's one of the things I love about AMFA, it's truly a bottom up organization. The member holds the most power.
Kurt Heidemann:
I like the fact you brought up the bottom up sort of process to get to what your contract asks are. That's exactly the process that SWAPA went through with our SEP, survey educate poll process that resulted in this rewrite that we're working on today. So it's another way that AMFA and SWAPA, I think are very similar.
Scott King:
We like to listen to our members and then represent what they ask.
Kurt Heidemann:
So another thing that we probably or at least have in common are the operational issues that are going on, that have gone on basically from really 2019 when the max was grounded all the way through the pandemic and now the recovery. Speak to us about that. Tell us how is it from the mechanic viewpoint as far as the operation.
Scott King:
Starting with that max and then going into the pandemic, there was a lot of panic going on there. A lot of guys, they had extended leave options and early retirement options and things like that. Now that we have demand coming back, we're very shorthanded. A lot of overtime in our ranks and a lot of pressures. And this is what I always remind guys of when I do station visits is I know we're under a lot of pressure, but we've got to maintain our level of professionalism and our level of safety. We can't be short-cutting things, it is just too much at risk. And it is just a constant pressure nowadays. They cannot find enough qualified mechanics to meet what they want for their experience requirements. In addition to that, AMFA is involved with the Aviation Technical Education Council and that's a membership of Hart 147 AMP schools.
And we're seeing the challenges there firsthand of being able to produce enough mechanics for the years to come. The last, what they call a pipeline report that was put out, in the near term by 2026, we're going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 to 40,000 mechanics shy of what we need for just demand in the United States. Worldwide, I want to say that number was around 150,000. So there's a lot of big challenges that lie ahead for us as well as pilot shortage. Everybody knows about that as well. So the demand is coming back, but we're having challenges meeting that demand and it's a good time to be in the field because there's a lot of demand for it, but it'll remain to be seen how we're able to address those operational challenges.
Amy Robinson:
So in terms of Southwest specifically, because I know they have a very progressive schedule for hiring of pilots in 2023, do you know what the numbers are for mechanics or their intent?
Scott King:
I cannot remember what the intent was. I know they were looking for the year 2022, I believe this was back in July, they said they wanted another 400 or so by the end of the year. I don't know. I haven't seen anything on if we were able to meet that demand number yet.
Kurt Heidemann:
Do you know roughly how many mechanics are at Southwest right now? I know we have about 10,000 pilots. How does that compare?
Scott King:
I want to say the last number I looked at was somewhere around 3000. Now that includes mechanics, inspectors, maintenance control, appearance technicians, GSE technicians, plant maintenance technicians as well.
Amy Robinson:
Are there any other sort of operational issues that you guys are seeing that are coming to light? I know you talked about... But that are very specific, specific plane issues or something that's a standard that you're seeing more often than you were before?
Scott King:
I would say our greatest challenge still as of today is maintenance. It's MXI. I hear Kurt laugh there, he's heard this before.
Kurt Heidemann:
Yes.
Scott King:
It's supposed to be, the intent of maintenance was to make us more compliant and have better tracking of our compliance issues. But it's had its challenges and I believe Lufthansa is the only other, or one of the other major airlines that uses it. And they've been using it for about seven or eight years now I believe. And it's still a lot of growing pain, so to speak. So we've had it in place for over a year and a half now, I believe. And it's getting better, but I think the company as well as the mechanics would've hoped that it would've gotten a little better or a little more user friendly by now.
Amy Robinson:
Is that a program that they bought wholesale from another?
Scott King:
Yes. I don't know what the different... I'm not privy to all the different levels of it. But from talking to the guys, I believe they could have expanded on it a little more and been a little more user friendly. But that just hasn't been the case.
Kurt Heidemann:
Scott, enough about the contract. Talk directly to the pilots listening to this podcast, a little bit about the interactions with mechanics and what they should know when they're talking to a guy that comes up, when they call mechanic to the flight deck.
Scott King:
Know that barbed mechanics put theirselves under a lot of pressure. They always want to do the job the best they can and get that job completed and get that airplane back in the air as soon as possible. So they do put their selves under a lot of pressure in addition to all of our time constraints and our scheduling challenges that we have that they fully know and understand that airplane's got to get in the air so we can all be profitable. At the same time, you got to balance that with the safety aspect. You got to make sure that the Is are dotted, the Ts are crossed and everything's done to ensure that we're providing a safe product.
Amy Robinson:
This is kind of a sticky topic, but tell us about some issues you've seen between pilots and mechanics.
Scott King:
Periodically we have issues between mechanics and pilots. Boils down to usually communication. Either I have reached out to John, or John Ross, your Professional Standards Chairman, reaches out to me and we're able to find out the backstory. Like I like to say, John finds out the backstory on his side, I find out the backstory on our side. Or sometimes our local Professional Standards Chairman handle it. And we're able to get people to take a pause and reflect a little bit and then calmer heads prevail and we're able to get down to what the issue was. And nine times out of 10, it's just basic communication.
Kurt Heidemann:
Yeah.
Scott King:
Absolutely. Professional standards, I always encourage it. I always encourage it with the mechanics. If they have issues, not just between themselves but with other departments, we don't want management involved. Not to say that they can't handle it, but usually they're of the position that somebody's got to get fired and I don't want to see, AMFA definitely doesn't want to see anyone lose their job and it's better for a peer-to-peer review and a peer-to-peer resolution to come about and we can just let management stay over there and do their thing.
Kurt Heidemann:
Scott, having worked with SWAPA now for several years, I've seen plenty of AMFA mechanics out on the picket line with pilots out there supporting us as we've worked towards contract negotiations. So let's turn that around and let me ask you, how can pilots support AMFA and support our mechanics?
Scott King:
So let me answer that by saying that what can AMFA do for your pilots? In addition to maintaining our aircraft and the highest standards, we will always be there for you, especially through this challenging contract negotiation time that you have right now. We know that SWAPA will be there for us when 2024 comes around, so we've always appreciated the dedication that SWAPA has shown towards us and we will always reciprocate that.
Amy Robinson:
Our thanks to Scott for being on the show today. We appreciate him taking the time to come in and talk with us.
Kurt Heidemann:
And as always, we'd like your feedback. If you have any podcast ideas we have not yet covered, or any SMEs you'd like to hear from, please let us know at [email protected].
Amy Robinson:
Finally, today's bonus number is 5. That's the number of local associations AMFA has within its ranks. They cover five different carriers, including Southwest Airlines, Spirit, Sun Country, Alaska, and Horizon, as well as L3 Harris out of Canada. While AMFA and SWAPA are organized very differently, we have more similarities than differences. And one of those that comes to the top, as you can see from this podcast, is that we put our membership first.