Amy Robinson:
Today's SWAPA Number is 11/30. That's the date the federal mediators assigned to our negotiation have indicated that they expect Southwest and SWAPA will have a deal.
Kurt Heidemann:
So on today's show, we'll speak with SWAPA President, Casey Murray, and Negotiating Committee Chair, Jody Reven, about what that date could mean and what our members can expect as that date arrives.
Amy Robinson:
I'm Amy Robinson.
Kurt Heidemann:
And I'm Kurt Heidemann. And here's our interview with Jody and Casey.
Amy Robinson:
So Jody, let's go ahead and start with this, we know that this has been a very critical time for the organization and for you guys in negotiations, but given the episode title, a lot of our pilots are asking this question and that is, what is the importance of November 30th, that deadline that's set by the NMB? Is it like a hard stop? What exactly is it?
Jody Reven:
No, I wouldn't call it necessarily a deadline, Amy. It's an artificial deadline. It's an expectation that the NMB has set on both parties that we'll come to an agreement magically by that date. It's designed to create negative pressure on both parties in the RLA process with a party that is a unionized party, there'd be the expectation that you could be put on ice if you weren't working in good faith toward that deadline. And the companies certainly is the opposite of that. The pressure that it puts on them is if they're not operating in good faith, then we could see the next steps of the RLA process play out.
Amy Robinson:
So then what does that mean from the organizational standpoint, Casey? What are the possibilities if we hit 11/30 and we don't get to a deal?
Casey Murray:
Well, I think there's several avenues that would open up to us. I think that if we're close, then I'd like to see us go into super mediation or super negotiations where they lock Jody and his team and the other team in a room and hopefully with an expectation of another few more days.
But as an organization, we are preparing for what would come next, which logically without an agreement would be an impasse, and that creates a 30 day cooling off period and we have to be prepared for that.
So we've been preparing this whole year in that eventuality and our regional strike centers are being set up as we speak, and we're going to be set to start the education process for our pilots. We have an app within the SWAPA app that will allow our pilots to check in, and it is just all part of us preparing for being released. And if that's the case, we will be prepared. Again, I want to make it clear, our expectation is just sign an agreement and move on.
Kurt Heidemann:
Case. I know you feel like we keep going back to that, but a way it was described to me, and I don't know what do you think of this as we fly an approach, we always plan to land, but we always have to brief all the contingencies, the worst case, and that's where we spend a lot of our focus knowing that that's the worst case and we're preparing for it. So I think that even though we're talking quite a bit about it, it doesn't mean that that's our priority or our preference. We always want to land. We always want to get a deal.
Casey Murray:
And it's a great analogy because well, it says it all. We always have an expectation and a preparation to land. We always have an expectation and preparation to get a deal, and it's been our frustration over the past few years, watching a little bit on the other team, not showing up prepared, not really taking this seriously. And we've seen a holistic change over the last few months and there's been some ups and downs, but we have been making a lot of progress, a lot of progress on the scheduling side. Jody's closing up the last few ends on some of the bigger items with benefits and still waiting on a really realistic compensation counter, but that's generally held to the end anyway.
So we do have an expectation of seeing something realistic that addresses what our pilots do every day, the liabilities they take on every day, as well as the amount of revenue they produce every day. So we are working towards the landing, but we've briefed the miss and we're prepared for a miss.
Kurt Heidemann:
This question's for both of you, where do we stand with the government if there's a government shutdown, what does that do to our timeline? Because that'll happen between now and November 30th.
Jody Reven:
Well, if there is a government shut down, that'll affect obviously the NMB and the services thereof. They've basically stated that they'll be completely non-responsive to emails, to phone calls, to anything like that. And it's not trying to make a point, it's their direction from the top down if that should take place.
But their viewpoint and even their stated preference for us would be to continue meeting weekly. Obviously, it just wouldn't be at the NMB. We would probably roll back to Dallas or a location like this week where we're in Austin and the next week where we're in San Antonio.
Casey Murray:
Yeah, I think that would be our expectation is that regardless, we're going to have to continue moving towards an agreement. Of course, that's going to be up to the company because we are prepared and we are ready, but if the shutdown does occur, we'd like to see talks continue.
Amy Robinson:
So Jody, I would ask you from an NC standpoint, what does this timeline mean? What do you see happening if that date gets closed? You're close, but you're not quite there. What do you think will be next steps or how does that impact you and your path?
Jody Reven:
So Amy, I don't feel any pressure honestly on the date itself and the organization and the pilot group have made it very clear that we have to have an industry leading contract if we're going to put that out for a vote. So I do see though opportunity. If we have that pressure and it creates that momentum to get us over the edge, we're preparing for that. We're already starting to prepare education for some of the industry leading provisions that have already been agreed to that are going to take the pilot group, really digging in during our education period and roadshows to understand what we've negotiated.
Amy Robinson:
So explain a little bit to our listeners about the put on ice scenario. What does that mean? We have a lot of people that are new that maybe don't understand that concept.
Jody Reven:
So very similar to what Casey was talking about earlier. If we went to impasse and we have refiled for release, which is a definite possibility, or if the NMB just said, "Hey, I don't think you guys are being productive right now," and that's one of their tools in their toolbox, really more meant for the union when the union is not negotiating good faith, they would put you on ice. Or if you did something that they didn't like, they would put you on ice and you wouldn't be allowed to meet or negotiate within usually about a period of about 30 days. It can be less or more. They can tailor it to the situation.
In fact, in Phoenix, Casey, I was reviewing some of the podcasts where Casey talked about post Phoenix where the company owed 14 items and we only wanted to talk about work rules. And so we basically took a principled stance there and said, "Hey, we just had the biggest meltdown in history. We're not talking about anything but work rules." And the NMB at that point, they didn't like how we were conducting that meeting, and so they put us on ice basically for the rest of the session. So it was just for a couple of days.
Amy Robinson:
So my other question is I think that one of the things that comes up a lot is what if you're close? What if November 30th comes around and you're close or you're closer than you have been, would we still file for release or would we continue to try to negotiate? What would be our plan at that point?
Jody Reven:
I appreciate the question. The goal is not to strik.e even the point of the SAV and that we don't negotiate so that we can get a 99% SAV or so that we can even get to a strike, the goal is a deal. So if it were obvious, if it's obvious that we're really close to a deal, there wouldn't be a point in dropping that letter again. But if we start playing games like we did in Phoenix again where parties aren't negotiating good faith or it's obvious that there's an intentional delay or if the company's just not realistic about where we sit in the marketplace, then that could definitely be an eventuality.
So we need the pilot group and the pilot group we know a hundred percent, almost a hundred percent minus 81, are prepared for path number two. But path number one, we need guys to understand that path number one is the goal and that's a deal and to be able to absorb information and attend the roadshows. If we can bring something up forward that we think will ratify.
Kurt Heidemann:
We'll get back to path number one, getting a deal later, and we'll talk a little bit more about the education. But let's talk a little bit more about path two and Case, what do we need to do or what do the pilots have to do when that happens? What's their role in that process?
Casey Murray:
In this scenario and as we go through the next couple weeks and our communication is going to be very telling coming into the 28th, 29th and 30th of November, our pilots need to be paying attention and need to be reading what exactly is coming out on our end as far as where we're at.
But if we end up, again, whichever path, there's going to be a ton of education that goes along with it. We're going to be very clear on what our expectations are of our pilots as far as if we end up at the 30 day cooling off and we know there's a possibility of a presidential emergency board and possibly another 30 days, but our pilots are going to have to understand what happens if we ultimately cross that final line into self-help and where we go from there?
And so our pilots need to be watching very closely. They have been for three and a half years, and I have no doubt that over the next three weeks, that they're going to be doing exactly that.
Amy Robinson:
There's been a lot of education and that's true, there has been a lot of education coming out and our intent is to even continue that thread when it comes to the education on what we did and why we did the rewrite and why these things were being talked about.
So what can our pilots do with that information or where can they get that information?
Casey Murray:
Yeah, Amy, we have been building for years and on SWPA.org, the contract 2020 information page. And so if you go to that, even today, there's a ton of information there on the RLA, on the process that we continue to talk about. There's also information on where we're at, what we've agreed to, and there is some education on there as well already.
We are going to continually load that, but most of it's going to be coming as we know which path we're headed down, and there's going to be a huge data dump when it occurs.
And I guess that's why earlier I kept saying our pilots have been very educated on where exactly we're at. And again, over the next three weeks, that needs to continue and even be, you need to talk to those you're flying with whenever you're at an overnight or in the crew lounge and continue to make sure you know exactly where we're at and exactly where we're headed.
Amy Robinson:
I'm going to put a plug in there and say that there is just reams and reams of information on pretty much everything in the rewrite on the Contract 2020 page and SWAPA.org as a whole. So if you haven't gone there, I would highly recommend that you get in there and take a look at that before we even get down even further into this either path.
Casey Murray:
Yeah, it's important to make sure that especially as we head into the holidays, if we end up with a deal or if we don't, that you're completely caught up on everything that we've put out. Just like studying for a check ride, start early and by the time you get the gouge, which will be that final little bit, you've already studied what is there and aren't trying to play catch up or worse yet, making your decisions off faulty information that's out there.
Kurt Heidemann:
And that brings up another good point, Casey, when we talk about getting information direct to and from the association, you mentioned the app, you mentioned strike centers, explain those roles in this process.
Casey Murray:
We have to know where our pilots are at and that's really important. We also are building various regional strike centers. We'll have one open in Dallas and in Baltimore first in the next couple of weeks.
Kurt Heidemann:
So those strike centers are going to open before the 30th even happens.
Casey Murray:
Yes. We can't get behind the power curve on this, and so we are making that investment to make sure we're prepared.
A lot of talk so far that we've focused on on that path. I can't say it enough and I think Jody will back me up as well as all of your reps, that our goal is to get a deal and not just a ratable deal, it has to be what our pilots expect in today's environment and it has to hit the vast majority of those and be industry leading. And so Jody isn't going in there just to get something that'll ratify because that could be 51%. We're looking at achieving and we have been and we're confident that whatever we put out is going to be ratified.
If we get to that point, we keep going back to strike impasse, but again, the reality is we're preparing for that and we have to be prepared. Jody is completely focused on getting an industry leading contract so our pilots can be educated on that and then vote on it.
Jody Reven:
That's a very good point that Casey makes with the team that we've put together and with this board of directors and Casey's guidance, anything that we've put out, you can feel pretty confident that it's going to ratify. But that really is not enough in this environment. We've talked about the last podcast Casey and I were on, Casey was saying, "Hey, here we are into this many years into this deal and we've lost 70 pilots." And that was just months ago. It's a pretty short time ago it seems like to Phoenix, although it's been about a year.
But today, we stand at 276, so just a ratifiable contract, it's not going to turn the tide on that trend.
Casey said before, we're not at the war with the company, but we're at war for the company. And if 276 pilots leave in one year, it doesn't seem like from the C-suite down that there's much urgency in that situation.
Kurt Heidemann:
Do you guys have anything to add about the industry leading versus ratable deal?
Jody Reven:
Yeah, I'd say that's never been our goal is to ratify. We're the keepers of the data and the information and the polling. Honestly, that would be insulting if people thought we were just going to put something out that would pass. What we've closed in lots of other sections, reserve specifically comes to mind, are already industry leading. But you only get this type of a contract negotiating environment probably once per career.
So I can say without a doubt, if we put it out, it's industry leading. There are various levels of that though. Hey, does my 401k look like that of a one year upgrade by the end of my career? Does my time off? There's so many ways where you have to discuss what is and is not industry leading.
Amy Robinson:
I assume that we have some comparison documents and things that would be clear for people to look at those and see where they measure up compared to other carriers, right?
Jody Reven:
Absolutely. Eric Schnitzer and Greg Auld of the EF&A are updating their product and they put out a really kind of a quick contract comparison to see where we were. And so with that shell, they've been updating as we've closed out sections so that the pilot group will have a good readable, user-friendly look at where we stack up in the industry.
Amy Robinson:
Jody, I have the same question of you that we asked of Casey earlier, but what can our pilots do to help you in terms of lift from the NC? What can they help you do to either move this along or take a better position? What can they do for you?
Jody Reven:
Well, the biggest thing they do, Amy, is what they do day in and day out. Go out and fly right now. Fly as much as you can, build your war chest should it come to that eventuality. But then be prepared.
I'm not worried about the pilot group being prepared for the negative outcome. They've already shown their resolve at multiple pickets, SAV vote, constantly having our backs there. What I'm concerned about is the amount of vitriol that's been created unfortunately by upper level management on down that we're going to put something in front of the pilot group that's industry leading and that path we've started headed down, we have to be able to shift and start to absorb information and start to absorb and ask questions and actually evaluate a deal that's in front of them. So that's the emotional roller coaster that happens in this aviation business unfortunately, where you're already at the point where you're ready for the next call from Casey Murray that says, "Hey, we've reached an impasse and we've done another release letter and we need you to volunteer for the strike centers." And then a deal falls.
So it's that whiplash that we have to have the pilot group prepared for to then take it down a notch, start to absorb deals, attend the roadshows, and evaluate the deal in a very objective way and not from this passionate way that we've been driven in the RLA process.
Casey Murray:
And I just want to add that we've understood this and Jody talks about the emotional whiplash and it's something we've tried to manage in that. American was out there with an SAV and it wasn't even in mediation yet, and Delta took an SAV, but really hadn't done really the preparation that we are to prepare for what happens if this dismissed approach does occur. So we're trying to be measured, we're trying to be prepared and better prepared than anyone that has come before us.
Kurt Heidemann:
So I think now Jody would be a good point to mention to the pilots or give an update. As we are recording this, we're about to start negotiations in Austin. This will come out in a week, but where are we today when it comes to negotiations? What are the big items that are open or what are the big items that are closed?
Jody Reven:
So the biggest push at this point, or the biggest obstacle that we have that we'll dive into this week is that a schedule execution of what has to go into open time and when? This idea of sufficient time. And then as you know, that drives what our other choices are with online reassignment, trying to get a volunteer as opposed to disrupting other pilot schedules and causing a mass chaos of deadheads and reroutes.
So here we are in Austin, that's what we're going to start out in. We're going to start out in schedule execution, and we're told that the company has some ideas that they think will be fair compromises with us in agreeing to leg change override. The company has kind of guaranteed that they really need to do things a little bit differently or else that leg change override that we costed however many millions is just going to be exponential if they keep doing things the way they are today.
So that's already a really good agreement on the side of the pilot and swap them. Now we just got to guide the company into some sanity with how they conduct their open time and seeking volunteers.
And then it remains to be seen if the company will come with any, like Casey was talking about earlier, are they going to be realistic about compensation and retirement? So we definitely know what the effect of a 1% raise is to CASMX, the Company language stage length adjusted to a thousand miles, the same with a 1% increase in NEC.
What we don't know is, and what the company doesn't seem to understand yet is I'm not competing with that. I'm competing with a 12 to 18 month upgrade. So I have to put something in front of a 23-year-old now that makes him want to stay at this airline for an entire career so that we stop being a leapfrog airline and go back to being a destination airline.
So in the next two sessions, both in Austin and San Antonio, we'll know if the company is realistic about sharing the two goals that we asked them for. It's probably been three or four sessions ago. Just, hey, can we agree to two goals? Can we agree that goal number one is that we need to stop the attrition? And goal number two is we need to stop being a leapfrog airline and go back to being a destination airline. And so far, they don't seem to have a real strong commitment for the latter.
Amy Robinson:
Is that even reasonable that you would be able to get through that in the next three weeks?
Jody Reven:
Yeah, it doesn't seem like it because it's multiple sections, but we have hammered out the majority of the language in all of those sections and then just hanging up on key items.
For instance, in compensation, we've gotten through all the rigs and all of the overrides and those type of things. Now we're just talking about the actual rate, the rate table and then a few of the overrides that we've still have disagreement on.
So there's much work that's been done and we just have to fill in the major blanks now. Same with retirement. We understand functionally how it's going to work, but it's just the numbers now. So it could start to move fairly fast if the company comes with a good faith offer.
Amy Robinson:
So Jody, with that in mind, could you talk us through what the timeline looks like once... Or even Kurt for that matter, what does it look like? Any of you have done this before when you actually reach an AIP, what happens next?
Kurt Heidemann:
I'll actually try and answer some of this, Amy. First of all, back in '16, we got the deal in Valencia and we all ran back and we were all excited and then found out that there were a lot of loose threads that we still left unsolved. And we came back and found out after talking to legal and some other experts that some of the things that we had agreed to just couldn't be done. So it's a little bit of a black mark against us.
And this team, Casey, Jody, Damian, myself, and everybody that's been with us understands that we can't do that again. So we've really committed to the implementation process. So that was a big chunk that we know that we have to have written and available to the membership, available to the board when we bring them a deal. So that will shorten that timeline.
The other thing that you hear is another airline's got an AIP and then they're going to write language for a month or two and then get it out. We aren't doing that. We have probably about 12 sections that are AIP'd, and of those, nine of them are pristine, written, on the shelf ready to publish tomorrow if we get a full deal.
So that is ready to go and we are doing the education on it as we go. So we have probably half a dozen podcasts already recorded for various sections that are AIP'd. We have some marked up language. That's going to be a big change from other sections or other contracts that we've done. Since this is a rewrite, there's not really such a thing as a red line document. You can't put this contract next to our existing contract and see what's different.
So we have invented this new thing where we're annotating the new language saying this is what this means and this is why we did it. So it's a bit more involved.
So that's what the education looks like. Now when it goes to the board, when we call up Casey and say, "Hey, we have a deal," he'll call the board and they'll thrash that out. Last time it was about three days in Dallas. They'll vote it up or down, and then assuming they voted up, it'll go out as a TA at that point. And then the clock will start. And I believe it's a 14 day...
Jody Reven:
Yeah, balloting for contractual and other issues is open for 14 days. That's just the opening. But that doesn't count the education too. And one of the things we learned last time was a pretty grueling two a day schedule for roadshows. I think this time, we're probably budgeted to do maybe one roadshow per base, but our capabilities since the contract in 2016 in social media and all the-
Kurt Heidemann:
All the virtual calls, yeah.
Jody Reven:
All the virtual call ins have really grown a good deal. So we'll make sure that we're getting the entire pilot group the information that they need to make a good decision. And what's been done this time with the board under Casey has been much more organized in that whenever we finish, Lexi Taylor, she pushes information to each board member's individual board book as soon as it comes out. And so we've been able to keep them in the know and in the loop along the way as we close out sections.
So the goal would be that they get all their questions answered and it makes that special board meeting go much smoother. So then we can get it out to the membership much quicker too and start scheduling roadshows.
Amy Robinson:
Okay. So Jody, do you have any final thoughts or things that you want that we haven't covered that you want the membership to hear or know?
Jody Reven:
I think we've covered most of it, Amy. I would say that the membership's had a chance to get to know us over the last year or two. And I think they understand that we're not going to bring a deal to them unless we feel that it's industry leading and that it's time for them to lock in those gains.
And then between here and now, for the new guys, continue to hit that Contract 2020 page and look at as much of the SEP process and as much of the various sections as you can. There's an excellent resources in the probey to probe, but now it's time to shift your attention to the Contract 2020 resources that we have so that you'll be better educated to compare where we are and what we've achieved.
I would ask that once that a deal comes out, to look at it objectively with comparisons to the industry with what our stated goals were in Contract 2020 and make that decision for your family in an educated way. And we'll be available once the deal goes live with lots more information than you're going to be willing and able to absorb, frankly. But make sure that you're making that educated decision and not the passion one that comes from the forums or the social medias.
Kurt Heidemann:
Casey, how about you? Final thoughts as we go into the last weeks of November?
Casey Murray:
I would ask everybody to stay engaged, to keep up the level of engagement you've showed so far. Be prepared, get on SWAPA.org, get on the Contract 2020 page, start doing some reading, start looking at some of the things that have been AIP, start looking at some of the information if you have it on the RLA and be prepared for the landing, but be more prepared for the missed approach.
And we're going to have a calls to action. We're going to need volunteers for regional strike centers, but we need everyone to do their homework from now until we start the approach.
Kurt Heidemann:
Thank you to Casey and Jody for joining us today.
As we mentioned before, our negotiating team was in mediated sessions in Austin last week, in San Antonio this week, and we plan to be in Washington DC on November 28th through the 30th.
Amy Robinson:
As always, we want to hear from you. If you have any ideas for podcasts we haven't covered yet, or subjects that we haven't talked about, please drop us a line at [email protected].
Kurt Heidemann:
And finally, today's bonus number is 12. That's how many regional strike centers SWPA will be opening over the next several weeks in preparation for what Jody and Casey referred to as the missed approach. As they mentioned, while it's not the path we'd like to take, it's necessary to be fully prepared for every possible scenario.