The Shift 50
[00:00:00] Trisha: I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.
[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives and especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness.
[00:00:59] Trisha: The shifts in thinking. Those of you who've listened to some of the earlier episodes will know that cultural intelligence, the capability to be effective in situations of diversity is made up of four areas. There's motivational, the CQ drive, cognitive, the CQ knowledge, metacognitive, the CQ strategy and behavioural, the CQ action, and all four of these capabilities help us operate effectively in situations of diversity.
[00:01:28] Trisha: Today we'll be touching on CQ strategy as we always do, and probably jumping through many of the others as well. I'm delighted to welcome my dear friend and colleague, Flor Bretón-García. Flor and I have worked together. We are on the board of the Families and Global Transition for many years, and on the Kaleidoscope Group Global team.
[00:01:50] Trisha: I've had the privilege in these situations of seeing her extraordinary skill in helping organizations navigate cultural complexity.
[00:01:59] Trisha: Flor brings over 20 years of experience working across cultural lines of difference to support global leaders in organizations. She's a trained lawyer with a JD and she also holds a master's degree in Applied linguistics. I was thinking about that Flor as I was writing it and reflecting on it and thought that's probably not very common.
[00:02:20] Trisha: And it's probably one of the reasons why she specializes in DEI strategy. In leadership development, storytelling facilitation are part of her skills, and she focuses on program management across global contexts. What makes Flor's perspective particularly valuable is her own rich experience living and working across cultural boundaries.
[00:02:41] Trisha: She's born in Venezuela, has lived in Germany in various parts of the United States, and she speaks Spanish, English, and German. She's working with clients ranging from luxury brands to manufacturing companies and tech giants, always helping them bridge cultural divides and develop inclusive practices.
[00:03:01] Trisha: In today's conversation, we'll explore both the personal and theoretical dimensions of migration and cultural transitions. Looking at what organizations and leaders can learn from these experiences. And we'll also chat about the current challenges facing DEI professionals in the United States right now in light of recent policy changes.
[00:03:22] Trisha: Welcome Flor.
[00:03:23] Flor: Thank you so much, Trisha. I'm excited to be here.
[00:03:26] Trisha: Oh, it's wonderful to have you here. And I'm sure everybody will pick up how long we have been friends and just how this conversation is a chat between friends and so many of the, our previous conversations have been as well. But yeah, this is great. So Flor standard opening question.
[00:03:42] Trisha: What is a culture other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?
[00:03:49] Flor: Trisha, I love this question because it was. It was challenging for me, but also exciting to think about it. So I'm must tell you, I think that I have fell in love with the specific aspects of the two cultures of the countries where I have had the opportunity to live. So I'm a, I'm in love with certain aspects of the German culture and I, you know, head over heels completely in love with certain aspects of the US culture.
[00:04:15] Flor: So, and both of them are related to food and happy, you know, family meals together. So. You can tell by that, that I love to eat, but I also have a family as a one of my strong values.
[00:04:26] Trisha: That's right. So what is the favourite food items that generated that idea?
[00:04:31] Flor: Yeah. Well, more than food items, Trisha, for example, let me tell you, one of the things that I loved about the German culture is this tradition that they have that every Sunday family and friends get together and they have what they call cafe time, so coffee and cake. And it's in the afternoon, usually after a walk.
[00:04:49] Flor: So more than the coffee and the cake is the fact that we come together. It's a pause in the middle of your weekend to come together and have a moment of conversation. And if you ask me about the US culture is one tradition that I have to, that I adopt and adopted and I love is Thanksgiving.
[00:05:06] Flor: Again, it's an opportunity to bring family and friends together and to be thankful for the many things that we get to experience in a year. Yeah.
[00:05:14] Trisha: Oh, that's lovely. So can you tell me about a time when you experienced a shift when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?
[00:05:21] Flor: When I left Venezuela in the year 2002, I moved to the United States, so I, I was living in Texas and I experienced those years. I thought that I was experiencing those years in Texas as a, as your regular immigrant. You know, I have the challenges of the language. I learned to speak English at the age of 22 when I arrived in Texas.
[00:05:45] Flor: So it was hard at the beginning. I couldn't understand words then trying to find a job with the limitations of our permit. So many things. And then after 10 years, 11 years living in there, I got the opportunity to move to Germany. Same challenges, language, finding, you know, a, a residence permit, getting to work and all that.
[00:06:04] Flor: But at the end. I will manage to, to learn the language somehow. I kind of butcher one of both of them, but I do it. I try my best, Trisha, with a heavy accent. But I love both languages and I have found work and jobs that have truly fulfill my passion for serving others and working across lines of difference. There is one moment in one conversation on one of those coffee and cake Sundays in Germany with a huge group of friends and acquaintance that we were talking and they were mentioning a couple of challenges that they believe having a high number of asylum seekers or immigrants in the country will bring forth the economy and for their the number of jobs that they have available in Germany.
[00:06:47] Flor: And I'm talking, this was in 2015, this conversation I'm talking about, I could see that there was certain resistance to welcome in, these individuals. And at one point in the conversation, Trish, I remember that I stopped it and I said. In my very, just very raw German. But what about me? You are speaking about foreigners in your country.
[00:07:11] Flor: I am a foreigner myself. My German is not the best and I want to work here, but I'm not looking for taking your jobs away or anything like that. And they turn around, look at me and say, you are a different kind of foreigner at that moment. I understood that not all immigrants, we are not all the same.
[00:07:34] Flor: That even as an immigrant I had and I have privileges that position me in a different place than others. And it was sad because I could see the different ways of accepting me and accepting others. I could see how others were or could be discriminated, and I wasn't because I came from a different country or because I had maybe economic ways to sustain myself in the country and all that.
[00:08:01] Flor: But at the same time, it kind of inspired me, Trish, I created that shift that changed in my head where I said, I need to do something. For immigrants, for women like me living abroad, that have less privileges than the ones that I get to experience moving and living in other places. So it was a moment of change and inspired me to start working in depth in the area of cultural competence and DEI.
[00:08:29] Trisha: And in that moment you were able to sort of see yourself in the conversation, see yourself out of the conversation, see how people were looking at you, think about how they were looking at other people as well. People with different. Linguistic ability maybe who hadn't begun the journey yet. People whose skin colour was different, whose religious beliefs might have been different, and see all of those privileges as you put them that you hadn't sort of necessarily been counting.
[00:08:57] Trisha: Yeah.
[00:08:58] Flor: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you said, Trisha. One moment. At that moment I wasn't part of the group because I was still a foreigner, but I wasn't part of the group that I thought I had always.
[00:09:10] Flor: Belonged to, you know, I always saw myself as an immigrant that day, August 23rd, 2002 when I left Venezuela. Okay.
[00:09:18] Flor: I'm an immigrant, I'm expat, whatever term you want to use, depending of the work that I was doing abroad. But it was hard because at that moment I was like, oh, I, I might not belong to this one either. So, but then that moment of what can I do for those who are seen in a different way or in a different life from, than me?
[00:09:36] Trisha: Which is a really inspiring way to turn the awareness.
[00:09:40] Trisha: Flor you've already referenced a number of those significant transitions across cultures. You've talked about moving from Venezuela to the US then to Germany. I know we've also said that you've moved back to the US from that moment of awareness you shared before. Can you share anything about these transitions that shaped your worldview as well as the work you do that you shared before?
[00:10:06] Trisha: Yeah.
[00:10:07] Flor: Yes. Yes, Trisha and. It might not be directly related to work, but I believe that one of the key aspects of success of a person living abroad lies on the capacity or the ability of the opportunity to have friends and create friendships. And there is no secret that when we move to other countries, we bring with us.
[00:10:34] Flor: The idea the cultural parents and the values that we relate to, you know, the idea making friendships or creating friendships in a certain way, the ones that, you know. So I moved to the United States, to Texas and to Germany, and then back to the United States. But for those who haven't met me yet, I am living currently in New York, so quite different from Texas.
[00:10:53] Flor: So I, I brought with me that idea of how to make friends and what friendship means based on my Venezuelan upbringing. When I was in Texas I was very concentrated on learning English, finding a job, raising a family. Trisha, I have shared my personal story with you before. I had three beautiful children, so they were born there, so I was quite busy and I must confess.
[00:11:16] Flor: Didn't have time to create those long lasting friendships that I want. When I moved to Germany, I came, I. I need to recognize this with the idea that it was going to be harder for me to make friends there because the culture was quite different. You know, cultural parents are maybe contrasting to the ones that you find in, in, in Venezuela in 2018, my mother passed away.
[00:11:43] Flor: And she was in Venezuela. I couldn't
[00:11:45] Flor: Fly there to see her, but I was at home in Germany and in the middle of the tears and the hard moments, I heard a knock on the door. I open it and there was this one friend, German woman. I still is, has a special place in my heart who was standing at the door because she knew what happened with flowers and a card and a huge hug.
[00:12:11] Flor: And she hugged me and I could completely, I was able to let go and just refuge her arms.
[00:12:17] Flor: And I realized that it was possible to have a friend in with different cultural patterns in a different culture. I never expected that outside of Venezuela and I found it there. That is something that I will never forget. I guess it's related to a very difficult time, but it was just a wake of call to see that even if we are living our own countries and we have a predefined idea what friendship needs to look like, you're gonna be surprised.
[00:12:44] Flor: Like I was to find. Good friends and deep friendships in, in ways and in and with cultural twist and mixes that I never expected before.
[00:12:54] Trisha: Yeah, that is so lovely.
[00:12:56] Trisha: Just stop making me emotional. 'cause it's just making it worse.
[00:12:59] Flor: sorry.
[00:13:01] Trisha: So when we think about friendship, we don't always think we. What you had made the assumption of you had understood already that friendship is something that's defined by our cultural values and that the way we make friends will impact the way we make friends in our home countries will impact on our expectations.
[00:13:20] Trisha: Lots of people would never have sort of had the, I think that's a little bit CQ strategy, that ability to think about things.
[00:13:27] Trisha: So lots of people will never have had that ability. So this is, that's a great story to tell, to first of all by acknowledging your own expectations and then just how surprised you were by a true moment of friendship and how it was so upbuilding. And that's a wonderful thing to hear and hope it inspires all of us to make those true moments of friendship.
[00:13:49] Trisha: We met on the Board of Families in Global Transition. You were the communication co-chair and FIGT as it's known, is a. An organization, it's a voluntary organization and it works with people who are in global transition. Many families some who have experienced third culture's kids.
[00:14:11] Trisha: It's a great organization. And really it is an organization that builds friendships, I think, and that's one of its great benefits. What stories or moments stand out from you that illustrate, I guess, the human side of global mobility in the people that we were working with or working together there?
[00:14:30] Flor: Yeah. Trisha, I cannot avoid, but think about the very first meeting that I had with the co-chair of communications. We were two having that role because there was a lot of, it was a huge team of volunteers to be managed and there, there were a lot of duties and tasks that needed to be done in in, in a fast paced environment.
[00:14:53] Flor: But it was my very first meeting with this person
[00:14:57] Flor: and.
[00:14:57] Trisha: think we can, I think we can name the
[00:14:59] Flor: We can. Absolutely. It was my very fir, it was my very first meeting with Sarah Black, a friend, colleague one of, one of my favourite people in the world. And I hadn't met her before. It was just we kind of crossed paths a couple of times in Zoom calls, but it wasn't.
[00:15:17] Flor: The friendship wasn't there yet. And I'm running Trisha because I'm myself in the middle of a transition. That was the moment. It was a COVID-19. That was the year 2020. I was also in the middle of moving from Germany back to the United States. My husband was already here in the United States working because he needed to come together first.
[00:15:39] Flor: And I was at Germany with the children and I was managing all that, and it was early in the morning. I was very emotional. I had spent the first two hours of the morning with a just a cup of coffee and crying, and I said, oh, I need to connect to this call. I'm a mess. I'm still wearing my
[00:15:57] Flor: pyjama’s. Well Flor here is the part where you are gonna be yourself and you're just gonna do it.
[00:16:03] Flor: So I connect to the call, I click enter the zoom room, zoom meeting, Sarah's there, and she says, good morning. And I couldn't say good morning. I start crying. There were two, three minutes that she just stay there with me and I cry. Then I kind of, you know, clean my tears and I said, I'm sorry. And I still remember this phrase that she said, you don't need to be sorry for being human. And we never say sorry or apologize for showing ourself in an authentic way. It made me realize that even though we all hear these stories about families or professionals or people moving from one country to the other one, and we might think that in certain groups that looks glamorous and is fancy and it's all that, and Trisha, you know, you and I have seen that side
[00:17:00] Flor: too. There is a human side to that global mobility piece. At that moment, I needed to function, I needed to give my best to the organization to family global transition. At the moment, I needed to be the best partner for my for, for the co-chair director of communications. But I was just in a very stressful situation, so she allowed me the space to kind of, feel those emotions with her there.
[00:17:21] Flor: And then we jump into the agenda and we start working. And it was just, it changed my way of working with people. And now, and if you wanna cry in the meeting, I will allow you to cry for two or three minutes.
[00:17:35] Trisha: That is lovely and I can completely imagine that conversation taking place between the two of you and our listeners will know Sarah Black because she has already been a guest on the podcast two times. And so, if you are a regular listener, you can imagine her having that response. Flor, your break around combines law linguistics. Cultural expertise, and as I referenced before, it is a really fascinating combination. How do these different disciplines inform your approach to the work that you've been doing with global organizations?
[00:18:10] Flor: What I can say, Trisha, first, because I know when you say this is an interesting conversa, a combination, and I heard it before. You don't have no idea how many job interviews and conversations have happened that people are like, but what are you, what is this combination?
[00:18:26] Flor: But
[00:18:27] Flor: it
[00:18:27] Trisha: from the perspective of this is an amazing, a
[00:18:29] Flor: amazing, I know, I ha I have heard both perspectives and believe me, it has helped me to kind of find the common thread, the common, the commonalities among the three and there are three key things that I have identified are common in these three hats.
[00:18:45] Flor: That I consider, that I wear myself. One is analytical thinking.
[00:18:51] Flor: The three of them is that a strong analytical skillset to see things to, to kind of push back, see them from different angles. So that is something that is common to those three professions or fields or career. The other one is that ability to kind of break complex challenges or issues.
[00:19:12] Flor: Into smaller pieces so I can kind of review or check every piece individually and find solutions in short term and long term that are gonna solve the problem that looks very complex at first sight. And finally, is the ability to also see elements that might look solo or disjointed, but I can bring them together in one effective system.
[00:19:37] Flor: So that's the way that I see. When I take a look at the different career paths that I have had to experience that I really find fascinating myself and that I see it in my work. If I related to the work that I do as a eh, cross-cultural advisor and also diversity, equity and inclusion consultant in the area of
[00:19:58] Flor: linguistics, Trisha, there is
[00:20:00] Flor: a. There is, it's very important and I think that linguistic hat allows me to see that it's very important that we understand that there are certain grammar structures, especially with people that speaks different languages and grammar structures related to pronounce use gender and politeness that are going to impact and define individual's cultural values and patterns, especially when we talk about masculinity role, power dynamics, or when we're talking about collectivism. So even having that ability to see those grammar structures gives me a deeper look or a deeper understanding of a certain group of leaders or team members and how the dynamics around power. My play in that organization. Also how DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion is gonna be approached because there are certain differences and how their leadership development and involvement is gonna be. And when I see that, I can, I think Trisha and I convince unable to, with their collaboration, to put together a strategies and solutions that are gonna be more relatable to their culture.
[00:21:17] Flor: To the way that they identify language and the way they see their own behaviours. So if you incorporate to that, the law piece, then again, law means. Looking at a complex challenge breaking into pieces, and that's what happens when I work in change management with organizations. It is overwhelming to see the issue of the challenge as a whole piece.
[00:21:42] Flor: Well, let's break it into smaller pieces. Let's take a look at the different details. I usually identify potential scenarios for risk. I think this is the low part. Playing, playing, playing here a role and I'm able also to see potential flaws.
[00:22:00] Flor: As a matter of fact, I sometimes I need to hold the bag Trisha, because I'm always looking at the little, you know, the small letter, the small line of things and I can get down a rabbit hole with that.
[00:22:10] Flor: But this is somehow how I combined three of them.
[00:22:12] Trisha: Yeah. That's brilliant. One of the things we've spoken about in the past is how language changes our brain and the language that we grow up with has shaped our brain in certain ways. And as you spoke about the linguistics and how you bring that to your consulting work. I can certainly see that happening.
[00:22:29] Trisha: And I know your legal skills and how you also apply those too. When I think about cross-cultural programs you've developed and the global programs, you know, really building understanding within organizations, I'm wondering if there are insights about other cultures that have surprised executives that you've worked with.
[00:22:48] Trisha: You know, because often we know our own cultures. And we don't recognize how others have been shaped. And so part of our roles is often helping people to see how others have been shaped differently. Has that been a factor? Things you've seen?
[00:23:04] Flor: Yes, Trisha, especially in those trainings or those opportunities that I have to work with leaders in Germany, Mexico. Guatemala and some countries in South America as well. One of the things beyond the usual punctuality, you know, some cultures are more punctual, some cultures are three or five minutes late.
[00:23:24] Flor: Beyond that, there is one element that has always been a key insight over or an aha moment for executives in both continents. If you talk about the Central and South American or Europe I'm gonna give you a quick example. In Germany, for example, we all the leaders, executives, that I have the opportunity to work.
[00:23:44] Flor: It has always been a surprise to see how important it is for people in Latin America to create, to build connections and relationships before having or doing business.
[00:24:00] Trisha: Yeah.
[00:24:01] Flor: It is a less transactional business. It, you know, pattern. First we create connections. First we interact and then we talk about the business. It is not opposite Trisha, but I think it's quite a different from what you experience in German business patterns because usually they, they are driven by logical punctuality and effectiveness. Doesn't mean that we don't do it in Latin America, but when you come to a meeting. You do the greetings, you shake hands and you sit down and start with the first point of the agenda.
[00:24:32] Flor: So there is not that moment of, tell me about your weekend. I don't know who you are. Nice to meet you on Florida and Trisha, and then you go. You start with that. Same thing has happened to me when I'm preparing executives in South America, central America, to go and work in Germany because it's like, why do they immediately start talking about business?
[00:24:52] Flor: I need to create a rapport first. Because that creates trust. And when I know different personal aspects of your life, that makes me feel closer and it makes you more trustworthy. So the transactional part can flow smoothly. So that's one of the key elements that I always see that both sides find fascinating.
[00:25:15] Flor: And like in aha moment, like you said, a key insight.
[00:25:17] Trisha: Yeah, that's right. and being able to work to hold those things together in their heads without judging other people is always a challenge. Yeah. So Flor, in your work with Kaleidoscope Group, you've helped not just individuals but organizations bridge cultural divides especially during mergers and acquisitions. What are some of the most difficult challenges that you've observed when two whole organizational organizations come together with their own cultures and they've got to merge?
[00:25:46] Trisha: What have you seen?
[00:25:48] Flor: Trisha, there are many challenges, but the two that I see. The most are The first one is cultural mismatch in leadership styles. That's one that happens frequently, especially nowadays or with organizations that I work with where you're merging two companies. One in APAC and the other one in is Europe.
[00:26:11] Flor: So you always find that element is one of the first one that pops, one of the first one that appears that we do work with. The second one is the communication breakdowns, and what is, this is also different communication styles, different ways of providing and receiving feedback. And usually these different communication styles create misinterpretation of facts and even mistrust.
[00:26:38] Flor: So those are the two common that you find when we merge or when we see two organizational cultural merging. So part of the work that we do at the Kaleidoscope group is to help organizations in the midst of their merchant acquisition. To conduct an in-depth cultural assessment of both companies to establish a shared set of values and a mission, and then we equip and actively engage leadership to model those values.
[00:27:09] Flor: So it is somehow, Trisha, a combination and a collaboration of the cultures of the two companies instead of being seen. One, organizational, cultural, dominating or dominant over the one that is coming on board. So that's part of the work that we do. It's quite interesting and addresses those two main challenges that we see.
[00:27:28] Flor: The mismatching leadership and the communication style.
[00:27:31] Trisha: Yeah. And those are. Massive differences in challenges, and yet in every merger and acquisition will need to be something that, you know, due diligence is done to assess where an organization is at exactly the way you've described. So really important work. And then taking from that organization level down to a team level.
[00:27:54] Trisha: You and I, we work together in a virtual global team, which is cross-cultural. How do you see team challenges playing out differently in virtual versus in-person environments?
[00:28:06] Flor: Trisha, I could say, and I was thinking. Lot about those differences because I have several requests from clients that want us to bring the trainings or the leadership development sessions in person more than virtual nowadays. So, and
[00:28:23] Flor: I think, Trisha, that there are benefits and challenges on both sides.
[00:28:27] Flor: But when I want to think about the part that I'm most passionate about, communication and language, I must say that for certain cultures, for certain countries and cultural patterns, it is more beneficial to meet or have those interactions in person. Then it is virtual because this deep person space is gonna allow you to create the relationships at first.
[00:28:51] Flor: It's going to make me feel that I can trust the space so I feel safe. And if, for example, the business language is English, but English is not my first language, I'm gonna feel more comfortable to participate. I create that warmth in the space. Same thing happens with certain cultures where eye contact, direct eye contact can be problematic when you are in a virtual space.
[00:29:15] Flor: Unless you want to be looking down the whole time you need, you are required to have that contact eye contact that is direct in an in-person space. You're gonna be able to lay your eyesight in other spaces that will help you with that cultural pattern or bringing that you have. What is the main benefit or the principle benefit that I see in the virtual space, and you and I have seen with the work that we do is that more people are able to access. Some of the conversations, some of the calls, some of the interactions, trainings and learning and development, because then you don't have to fly them from one country to the other one. And I'm referring to especially to global organizations. The impact on the environment is also less.
[00:29:57] Flor: Instead of me flying to Kuala Lumpur, for example, and coming back in three days. I have done it before and I love it, but still I know the impact of that. So it's it, like I said, pros and cons on both sides, but fascinating nonetheless.
[00:30:11] Trisha: Absolutely. And all of those things that you're speaking about, I have experienced as well can echo those and can also say that it is possible to build positive environments virtually, and positive relationships virtually. And I think sometimes people make the assumption that if we are really going to work well together, we must first of all meet in person.
[00:30:34] Trisha: And right back to the FIGT board, that was always a virtual board until we would hopefully meet in person at one stage. But yeah, it, and so with us, we did, we never met in person for quite some time.
[00:30:48] Flor: I know Trisha, but there is some. There is. So yes to what you're saying and we need to be very intentional about the way we design and we schedule these interactions. Virtual. I think that for certain cultures and certain fields of work, there needs to be a buffer before or spaces where you can create that rapport outside of the meeting with the agenda.
[00:31:13] Trisha: Yes. Yeah. You need that time to get to know people, which, if you just jump onto a virtual meeting, is something really difficult to do.
[00:31:21] Trisha: Yeah.
[00:31:21] Trisha: And so it needs to be intentional, the relationship building virtually. Yeah. Yeah. So much to learn. Let's think about. Immigrant women because you've touched on them right at the beginning in your desire to work to assist them.
[00:31:36] Trisha: You've worked with immigrant women, both in Germany and the US helping them enter the corporate workforce. What barriers do they typically face and what painful mis conceptions do organizations often have about global talent?
[00:31:51] Flor: I really appreciate this question, Trisha, and I want to take just. Just a few quick seconds to acknowledge that being an immigrant, especially an immigrant woman, is not easy. I have seen it firsthand in different, in the different countries that I have had the opportunity to live in and with the women that I have worked with.
[00:32:10] Flor: There are several barriers and misconceptions that we get. Societal level, community, organizational. So I want to acknowledge that there are out there immigrant women working very hard to be successful and to be able to work in a different country. And I think, Trisha, that one of the first challenges or misconceptions that are out there and that I have encountered myself begins with language.
[00:32:38] Flor: Either because if you are an immigrant from a Latin country, and those are kind of the immigrants that I work with when I was in Germany and here in the US is women Latinas that come to these countries and they don't speak English, for example. And they are learning. They are learning and they're trying, but at the same time, they need to be given the opportunity to work.
[00:32:59] Flor: They're highly trained. You have lawyers, you have engineers, you have educators, you have all these women that are extremely smart and prepared and they're not able to insert themselves in the workforce in their areas of training because the language is a barrier. And even though they end up learning the language, one everlasting or ever present barrier, and I had this talk with you before, is the accent.
[00:33:24] Flor: How we are misjudged. And treated because of our accents. The accents that we have when we speak English. The accents that we have when we speak Germany in this case always tells the story that we are foreigners. And in certain organizations it might look like we know less
[00:33:42] Flor: Or that we are less prepared.
[00:33:44] Flor: So that is something that I have seen a lot. The other part is that. Most of these women, like I said, they are highly trained. They come with the degrees from their countries. And when you come to work in a in a country such as the United States or Germany, then you bring your degrees, you bring your credentials, you go through all the process, but your, our degrees are always seen as less valuable because don't come from a university, from a one of these first world countries.
[00:34:12] Flor: If you said it just out of it. So it is always that. And
[00:34:16] Flor: the final, Trisha, and also
[00:34:18] Flor: it has been a topical conversation and of many of our discussions before is the work gap. Meaning that moment when we leave our countries of residents or home countries and we move to another place, there is always a time that we are not working.
[00:34:34] Flor: And then when you go back to the workforce, people ask you, what did you do the last two years? Well, I was learning German. I was, you know, raising three children and helping them learn the language and I will do this amount of things. So I was working in other jobs that I needed to do to survive or to be able to feed my family.
[00:34:52] Flor: And that's why you see that gap in there. So several elements that might cause organizations to judge us in a way that is not accurate.
[00:35:03] Trisha: And I think we are talking at an organization level, but we also need to acknowledge that comes at a personal level. So there's a person sitting on the other side of the phone or you know, in an interview who is. Making that judgment. I mean, this is a real example of CQ strategy because it's like you hear an accent, it impacts somewhere in your brain, somewhere in your thinking.
[00:35:25] Trisha: Unless you unpack that thinking and recognize that you are actually have a bias towards that accent, then you're not going to listen to the content that the person is saying. And it can be a really helpful exercise sometimes in a training situation to just get your participants to listen to accents.
[00:35:44] Trisha: To people speaking with accents, obviously. And to think about what emotions or what judgments are rising up within them, and to learn how to step away from those and acknowledge that they are what they are. Biases and judgments. Yeah.
[00:36:01] Flor: Trisha, I have told you that phrase that I have heard many times. Your accent is so distracting. It's just what you're saying. It's you're not listening to my message. You're just listening to my accent. Go deeper.
[00:36:15] Trisha: you've put me in a box with a label on it. Yeah. Whatever that box might be. And Sexy foreign Woman is one box,
[00:36:24] Flor: Oh yeah. I have heard that too.
[00:36:26] Trisha: yeah.
[00:36:26] Trisha: And Unintelligent Idiot is another box and Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so many, not just women but because of your work, you've focused specifically on women, but so many migrants, you know, face these challenges.
[00:36:43] Trisha: We know that it's very challenging around the world, and I know you're feeling a lot for your fellow immigrant women, especially in the US at the moment, and thinking about the challenges they're facing and yeah. So when we think about, what people are facing. And when we think about people coming to work, it's really important to think about how leaders can make differences in people's lives and in the organizations that they're working in.
[00:37:12] Trisha: You've implemented inclusive leadership programs across 36 different countries. What positive approaches have you found that transcend the national boundaries? And might offer a path forward in today's challenging climate.
[00:37:28] Flor: Trisha, one thing, the power of storytelling.
[00:37:32] Flor: Sharing stories back to those first questions that you asked me about experiences and I told you about authenticity. It is necessary in this work with leadership teams, with executives to appeal to their empathy and to share stories that helps them connect with a reality of groups that have been.
[00:37:53] Flor: Underrepresented or marginalized in, in, in society and stories that are current. So they see what their current challenges are. That is something that I have seen and it's difficult because not everyone wants to share their story. There is fear and sharing stories that a couple of times during the conversation.
[00:38:10] Flor: I'm thinking, do I say it? Do I? But I know this is a safe space. And the people listening to your podcast also are. Individuals that are gonna provide a safe space for your guests. But it's, that is the power of the storytelling and how stories bring us closer. But for that, we really need to have our hearts open to listen to those stories and want to get involved and learn more about what's happening.
[00:38:34] Flor: Yeah.
[00:38:35] Trisha: And we need to have the time to listen.
[00:38:37] Flor: back to the intentional part. You need to be intentional about creating those moments.
[00:38:43] Trisha: Yes. We have an earlier episode listeners and I'll highlight it in the show notes where Dr. Joanna sells spoke about storytelling and she's very skilled in this area.
[00:38:52] Trisha: Flor. It's been amazing speaking with you about your work and some of it is our work as well. So it's great to think about, you know, what, what has been achieved over the years. I'm wondering what advice would you give to someone who's hoping to follow in your footsteps working across cultures to support organizational change?
[00:39:12] Flor: Trisha, three things come to mind. Three, three words. Language, community, volunteering,
[00:39:21] Flor: And I think are the three. Key success factors that I have found in my journey abroad in the last 22, 23 years, and also success factors that I have seen with the women, immigrant women that I have worked with.
[00:39:34] Flor: Language. If you are moving to a place where you don't speak the language or the language is not your first language, learn work hard to do it, to not get discourage from your accent. Your accent is gonna be a powerful tool when you do this job. It is for me. Now, it is a, an eye-opener. It is a conversation starter.
[00:39:55] Flor: It tells my story every time I start with a leadership development training or talking to a group of students in one of those Ivy League universities here in the United States. And I have the opportunity to interact with young people, younger generations. I realize I realize that my accent starts telling the story before I share. Specific experiences myself.
[00:40:15] Flor: Then the part of community. I know it's hard, that integration, and you and I were talking about the different challenges that are happening right now for immigrant immigrants in the world is in the United States especially. And we also see attrition in western European countries at the moment, but again, is find opportunities to, to spend time in the community and be open to those friendships even in the friendships.
[00:40:41] Flor: Are going to be created in a different way than what you are used to because it's important to have certain support system that is gonna hold you when you feel down. That is unavoidable. Finally, volunteering. Volunteering has opened the door for me to listen to stories, to understand that my pain is not unique, is valid, but there are many people going through it and there are other challenges.
[00:41:09] Flor: Go beyond what I'm living and that I can be a part or a change agent with those on those things. So this work requires that. Is this you and I have talked before Trisha it's about serving.
[00:41:20] Flor: I strongly believe in serving others and I think that will be my advice.
[00:41:24] Trisha: And as you look at your life, the people you've worked with, your family and community, and as you look at the future in this changing and challenging political landscape, what are you hoping for?
[00:41:36] Flor: I hope I hope for opportunities. Opportunities for each individual to show who they truly are and to use their abilities and their values to serve the community and create change. I hope for the opportunity to embrace those who are different from us that we might be afraid to include.
[00:42:01] Flor: Because we do not understand. We are highly, you know, we are fearful of those things that we don't know how we can create opportunities to get, to listen to those stories, to get to know those individuals and to open a space for them in the societies and the communities where we are. And it begins at an organizational level as well.
[00:42:22] Flor: Trisha, I, I always said that. The real change for me besides starting at a family nuclear level, it happens on an organizational level that, that it has an impact in the rest of the society. So I will say opportunities that were an opportunity to showcase how valuable each one of us is.
[00:42:41] Trisha: Opportunities for individuals and for organizations. Yeah. How would you like people to follow up with you? I can put your LinkedIn
[00:42:50] Flor: I will say yes,
[00:42:52] Flor: absolutely Trisha, by LinkedIn
[00:42:53] Flor: profile.
[00:42:54] Trisha: Fantastic. So we'll put that in the show notes and you can connect with Flor. She would love to make a connection with you there.
[00:43:01] Flor: Absolutely.
[00:43:02] Trisha: Thank you Flor.
[00:43:03] Flor: Thank you so much, Trisha.
[00:43:04] Trisha: Really appreciate your coming and speaking with me and to the listeners today. And speaking from your very authentic self being very human with us sharing your skills, yes, but also sharing your challenges. Really appreciate it.
[00:43:21] Trisha: We all develop cultural intelligence by listening to others and learning from conversations, and this is part of our shared learning journey. So dear listeners, if this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might also be exploring cultural perspectives and follow us on your preferred podcast platform.
[00:43:43] Trisha: And please join us in a fortnight on the Shift. .