I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.
[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there everyone, I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and an explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives. And why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness, the shifts in thinking.
[00:01:00] Trisha: Those of you who've listened to some of the earlier episodes will know that cultural intelligence, the ability to be effective in situations of diversity, sometimes referred to as CQ, is made up of four areas. Motivational, CQ drive. Cognitive, CQ knowledge. metacognitive, CQ strategy, and behavioral, CQ action.
[00:01:22] Trisha: All four of these capabilities can help us operate well in situations of diversity. In this podcast, we're focusing more on the metacognitive aspect, thinking about our thinking, and it's called CQ Strategy. My guest today is a friend and colleague, Tanya Finnie. Tanya and I met at a CQ facilitation training event in Sydney some, oh goodness, Tanya, do you remember how many years ago it was?
[00:01:48] Tanya: It was in 2021, I
[00:01:50] Trisha: Oh, was, no, I think it was earlier than that.
[00:01:53] Tanya: It could have been. I, I, I went the other day and looked at some photos when you mentioned it and I was like, Oh, I think it was 2021, but it could have been earlier. It doesn't seem.
[00:02:03] Trisha: We may have to consult somebody who will remember better than us. Anyway, I feel like I've known Tanya for about eight or nine years, but I'm not sure now. Maybe she's just one of those
[00:02:15] Tanya: No, you're right. 2021 is when I was, at the London CQ event. So it must've been a couple, several years before then actually. You're quite right.
[00:02:23] Trisha: Yes, because it was in Sydney,
[00:02:25] Tanya: That's right.
[00:02:26] Trisha: As some of you might be aware from hearing Tanya's accent, she is a South African Australian. She's based in Perth, which is Western Australia. She founded and leads a boutique consultancy firm called Redhead Communications. And on their website, it's described as the place where diversity thrives and leaders come alive.
[00:02:50] Trisha: Which I love. Tanya has qualifications in business, in learning, in DEI, in CQ. She's been through a lot of different experiences. We're really looking forward to having her with us today. Welcome Tanya.
[00:03:02] Tanya: Thank you. It's lovely to be here. I've been following your podcast for some time and always love your sessions. So it's a great honor to be here today.
[00:03:11] Trisha: Thank you Tanya. We've got a lot to discuss. There's a lot of wisdom that comes from the depth of experience that you've had in your life so far. But first, our standard questions. What is a culture, other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learnt to love and appreciate?
[00:03:28] Tanya: I always find that such a hard question because I love so many cultures that it's really hard to choose.
[00:03:34] Trisha: I know.
[00:03:35] Tanya: and I often refer to myself as a child of the world as I've picked so many different things from different cultures. I was born in South Africa and, then moved to Namibia where I lived for six years as a child, but I've also lived in, in Germany for a couple of years and various other parts of Africa.
[00:03:53] Tanya: but I, maybe from my German side of my culture, which also comes a little bit DNA in my heritage. If you invite me to a party that starts at seven o'clock, I will sit in my car two minutes before seven and ring the bell at exactly seven o'clock. Which is very different from the African timing that I grew up with, but I, I quite like that timing diligence that came from Germany.
[00:04:22] Tanya: but I, I'd love to throw in a bit of Italian food on top of that. I've got an absolute weakness for gnocchi and carbonara. And I love the jovial hospitality of, of my birth country, South Africa, where you can just rock up at somebody's house without having to make an appointment. You know, again, in stark contrast with Germany, where I felt you always had to first drive past 45 minutes, go back home, ring them and say, look, I may be in the neighborhood next week. So, and then with Asia on my doorstep, I always appreciate the variety of smells and the food that you can get on the streets, and I always try to get away from the touristy areas. There's nothing like eating fresh seafood off a newspaper in Malaysia while drinking a tiger beer or, you know, some, some roti kaniya, which is the Indian flatbread, which they also call flying bridge, which sounds very exotic to
[00:05:11] Trisha: Yeah. That's delicious.
[00:05:13] Tanya: but yes, I think a little bit of everything, I've got German and, and Dutch DNA, and my natural style is also very direct with those two in combination, which I'm very comfortable with, but I also recognize that sometimes I may need a little bit of adjusting when I speak to somebody else who's maybe less direct.
[00:05:31] Trisha: And that is an adjustment that I'm sure you're skilled at making.
[00:05:35] Tanya: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Sometimes. Sometimes.
[00:05:39] Trisha: Yes. Well, you obviously adjusted from the thinking about time from one style to, to fit in with the German style. So you've already demonstrated that you're capable of doing that.
[00:05:51] Tanya: Too true.
[00:05:52] Trisha: What about, can you tell me a time when you have experienced, you know, what we're calling the shift when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?
[00:06:01] Tanya: There's probably many moments again, but I know that we have a dear friend in common, Dr. David Livermore, who we both know through the, through the CQ world. And I remember when I met Dave for the first time in Kuala Lumpur in 2019, I told him a story of how I never eat alone because to me, eating is such a, you have to do it with friends and family.
[00:06:27] Tanya: And whenever I travel alone, that leaves me with a bit of a predicament, but I found a way to solve it. And I would literally go into a restaurant, order my food. And scan the room for somebody else that's eating alone. And I will then go up to them and say, Hey, I see you eating alone. I'm eating alone.
[00:06:43] Tanya: People shouldn't eat alone. Can I sit down? And then I'll go get my plate and go over and, you know, get to know somebody new. And I guess I thought that's just what people do. And that seemed like a really normal thing to me. And I remember saying that to David, he was just laughing about it. And every time that he now introduces me to others, he leads with that story, or very often leads with that story.
[00:07:05] Tanya: And everybody thinks it's hilarious. And I think it was a real shift for me to go, Oh, okay. Well, apparently that's not apparently normal. That's not what most people do. So it turned out that it was a bit of an unusual thing to do. I've also worked in a previous life as a tour guide throughout Africa. And I, I have so many experiences there where I was on a bus with tourists from other perspectives and some of the questions that they would ask or, or things that seemed normal for me where, where they would, they would have a complete different, different perspective.
[00:07:39] Tanya: I remember one particular story where, I had a bunch of medical doctors and we visited traditional doctors. So in Africa, They have something called a sangoma, which would roughly to English translate as a witch doctor, someone who would throw out the bones and, you know, tell you a little bit about your future and your past.
[00:07:57] Tanya: And, and those were experiences that when I traveled, I often see that and was often exposed to that. But of course, that's also very different. And, and when you, when you change medical systems across countries, it leaves you with different perspectives. and I think it's that old age story of, you know, drawing a nine between you and me in the room and asking you if it's a, if it's a nine or a six, you're most likely gonna say it's a six from your perspective.
[00:08:21] Tanya: And I, I think we often have to be, brave enough to pause and just, look at it from that other side.
[00:08:28] Trisha: it's sometimes a surprise to people, when they recognise that. So not everybody I've found is able to do that. which is partly why I began this whole podcast. whereas you've just listed off numerous situations that you can recall where you've had those moments and you've thought yeah okay and so you've you've been able to hold the two different perspectives in your head and see them as both normal and listeners I'm doing the inverted commas, with my fingers here.
[00:08:58] Trisha: So it's, it's something I think that's a skill that you can gain, which you obviously have, but not everybody has. So yeah, it's a great, a great way to be able to step into a situation. And, you know, my whole perspective in thinking about this is how can we help others do that as well. And I know, you do a lot of helping others.
[00:09:19] Trisha: So, so let's think about that as well. But first of all, I'd love to take you back to growing up in South Africa. As a young person in a turbulent time, the whole country was shifting and people around you would have been responding to those shifts. And this wasn't something simple, like it looks like a nine to me, or it looks like a six to me.
[00:09:38] Trisha: This was at people's core. So can you tell us a bit about what you experienced and what you noticed at this time?
[00:09:45] Tanya: Yeah, so I grew up in, in South Africa in the, 70s and 80s, uh, which were apartheid years, of course, so we had restaurants for black people and white people and, I may just pause for a moment and explain that, when Nelson Mandela became president, in one of his very first speeches, he divided South Africa and said, we're going to talk about people here as, uh, Black, white, Indian and colored and no disrespect is meant by using using the language of black people and and and white people.
[00:10:17] Tanya: I guess that comes from my roots and my growing up. And I understand to some listeners that maybe quite jarring language. Just hearing me speak like that. But, but we grew up in a segregated world. The schools that I went to, I mean, there was, there was everybody in my school was white. They all came from the same suburb.
[00:10:35] Tanya: And if I say they were all white, we did not have somebody that was Italian or, any different than my, I guess, conservative and religious Afrikaans upbringing. . and then I left school and moved to Germany where I, uh, spent some time as an au pair for a while. and I saw a very different world there.
[00:10:54] Tanya: And it was around that time when Mandela came out of prison and got voted in as president of the country, which was a very proud moment in, in South African history. But of course, we, if I think back to my childhood we grew up with black staff that looked after us, probably raised us more than our parents did.
[00:11:16] Tanya: They cooked for us, they cleaned for us. And unlike many other staff or many other families, our lady's son, Michael, was living with us at some stage. And Michael was seven when I was probably about 15. And I remember coming home from school one day with a friend and Michael and I were sitting down for lunch.
[00:11:34] Tanya: We invited her to join us and she was mortified that we were sharing a table with this black kid and it was the end of our friendship. And I think it was my very first realization of racism because I grew up so different than many others, I guess that I never thought about it. And it. was where I was really exposed to that.
[00:11:53] Tanya: And, and, and I think it was also where that. That it was born a sense of, I want to fix that in the world and create a place where we can all sit around the same table.
[00:12:05] Trisha: So your parents must have raised you with a different set of values than the society around you in some ways for you to have that, difference of perspective than your school friend.
[00:12:16] Tanya: Certainly have. Yes. I think the, common, I mean, it, it was very common and, and still are in some households today to, to have your plates and your cups for your staff separate from your own, they had separate toilets, where I remember, the woman who practically raised me at some stage using our toilet and I know there were others that would have been mortified by that at the time.
[00:12:39] Tanya: So certainly my parents had a. I guess a wider view on the world and a different perspective, but was certainly not the norm when I was growing up.
[00:12:48] Trisha: So in terms of your career and life choices that. thinking, that desire to, to make a difference. How did that impact then, you know, what you chose to study, what you chose to work in?
[00:13:00] Tanya: Gosh, I don't think anthropology was a concept when I, when I went, originally went off starting to study. But I think I've always had that, that desperate need to, to, I was always curious about cultures and I always wanted to know more about cultures. So I did my first degree actually in tourism management and worked for a while as a tour guide.
[00:13:22] Tanya: But I gave up my apartment at some stage because I was on the road all the time. And in my free times, I would stay in places like Soweto, which is the biggest Black township just outside of Johannesburg with, with millions of, of only Black people who lived there. And at the time, white people barely ever entered there to go and learn more about families.
[00:13:42] Tanya: I lived with a, a Zulu king and a Maasai warrior and, uh, various different, uh, cultural groups to learn more about their culture because I think from a young age, I wanted to, Get everybody to get along a bit better to, bridge that gap between all these differences and to see people rather as, as human beings and, and respect and learn from our differences, because there certainly are many differences.
[00:14:06] Tanya: But I think that was very much driven from the way that I grew up and my first career in tourism management. And. Of course later I discovered cultural intelligence, which, which led me to do a PhD in cultural leadership ultimately, because I am so passionate about cultures and, and ultimately how people get along and, and relate to one another.
[00:14:28] Trisha: And so you moved to Australia in 2004. That movement, moving here, would have been a shift in and of itself. Can you tell us a bit what it was like?
[00:14:38] Tanya: Look, it was hard. It was, it was very hard. It was We chose Perth in Australia after we did our, what we called our LSD trip by look, see and decide.
[00:14:49] Trisha: Yep.
[00:14:49] Tanya: And, um, and we chose it for its similarity to South Africa, but of course on face value, what looks similar when you arrive could be very different.
[00:14:59] Tanya: And, I remember the first time I got invited for a, a dinner party, which was called tea. So I brought Tim Tams because I wasn't, I didn't realize tea meant dinner. And they asked me to bring a plate. I thought the poor woman doesn't have enough plates. I'll just take 12 plates. And of course there was no food on the plate, which is a colloquial saying, you know, bring a plate means you actually bring it with some food on it.
[00:15:22] Tanya: And everybody was very perplexed at my weird, cultural decision there, I guess. But they were honestly days where I think my husband and I sat crying on the couch at some stage and, and, and, and we were like, wow, how, how are we going to make this work? Because after all the new stuff wore off, discovering Tim Tams and exploring places, we realized that we had no doctor, we had no pharmacy, we had no butcher, you know, all of the things that was familiar to us, but we also really hung on to the reasons why we left and, we knew that we couldn't go back at the time, and, and that led us to, to really make it work in the end.
[00:16:02] Tanya: And I now proudly call Australia home and, is very proud of, the Australian part of me as well. But there was certainly a long time where I Struggled with my own identity as well, because working in that cultural space, I, I grew up in an Afrikaans background culture, where my husband grew up in an English, culture, which are both from, from a white background, but that was the Boer War, was, was these two cultures against one another.
[00:16:31] Tanya: And I remember when we got, got married that people, stopped talking to us because it was such a bizarre thing for, for us to get together. And I remember when I came here struggling with that identity, desperately wanting to be Australian and obviously not quite sounding Australian and, and practicing the Australian colloquialisms and the Australian accent, which as you can probably hear, I haven't quite nailed yet.
[00:16:56] Tanya: But, uh, it, it was really important for me, uh, in the beginning to fit in. It took me some time to. Find an even keel where I went, okay, this is who I am. And I can take a bit of this and I can take a bit of that. And, and, and, and all of that is still part of me.
[00:17:12] Trisha: I think that's a wonderful summary of what we go through. And having come from New Zealand to Australia, I would identify with a lot of those experiences as well. And I think I also haven't got the accent perfectly and probably never will, because from time to time I get picked out quite quickly.
[00:17:29] Trisha: So There are things obviously that are still part of, me that's a Kiwi, in terms of pronunciation that people pick up on. I think when you think about us in Australia, as a country, what can we learn from what South Africa has been through?
[00:17:44] Tanya: You know, sometimes I think that we're not that dissimilar. I think one of the big differences was in South Africa, they stuck a label on racism and they called it apartheid, which, which Australia hasn't done. But if you think of Australian history, Australia has always had a binary system. And what I mean with a binary system is we've had the, the white Australian policy.
[00:18:05] Tanya: So it was an indigenous versus a, a white policy, basically. So there were only that two party system really. And then later when, when, when that got scrapped, at least to some extent, Uh, we, we operated in a, in a man versus woman world, which was still binary when, when women just entered politics and women were allowed to actually start working, for example, and all, all of those things.
[00:18:32] Tanya: And I really think that we can, we can learn from, South Africa that ultimately adopt, you know, it, it, during apartheid years, for example, that they sports teams couldn't even go and participate internationally because of bans on the country. And, and even though we don't have that in Australia, I think Australia can, really, learn to adapt to a more multi pronged approach, a more intersectional approach where we, where we get rid of the isms, right?
[00:19:04] Tanya: I think we still have a lot of isms, racism, sexism, ableism. All of those isms that, that we could, that we could do. I think Nelson Mandela was to me an absolute legend and such a great example of somebody who's had, he's been in prison for his political beliefs. That was ultimately the reason why he really got in prison, but yet came out.
[00:19:27] Tanya: And, and forgave and, and did some amazing work in bringing people together. And I think if Australia can take something from that as a nation to rather see how we can collaborate and work together in spite of our differences, we can be the perfect country.
[00:19:43] Trisha: Mm. It's funny. I think the last two episodes we've been speaking about Mandela. We had Sam Kellog Blom, who, you know, a fellow South African. And he's come from a different perspective because he is a black South African. he was speaking about the healing. That Mandela tried to do and how much still needs to be done a couple of episodes ago.
[00:20:06] Trisha: And then, Dr. Gary Mason was speaking about in Ireland and the role of a leader in terms of creating shifts and how important a leader is in, in the way that they lead people in the way they speak. And so I feel like, you know, We do need leaders who can speak and can demonstrate that ability to bring people together and speak about people who are different to them in a way that is with, with love and with care and with appreciation rather than separation.
[00:20:37] Trisha: And so there's, there's a lot of work to be done, like you say, and, maybe we are the leaders of the future who can, who can do that in our own sphere. I don't think I'm seeing one in the big sphere, but if anybody does know of somebody, please let me know. But in the meantime, we'll each of us step into that because that's.
[00:20:55] Trisha: That's certainly what Tanya is doing in Perth and across Australia. So tell us a bit about the work you're doing now, Tanya. How has it emerged and evolved?
[00:21:03] Tanya: Well, yes, over time, it certainly turned into something slightly different than what I set out to become. But mostly what I do with my days now involve, doing keynotes at conferences in the space of culture and cultural intelligence, unconscious bias. And, I'm about to release my first book, which I'm quite excited about.
[00:21:25] Trisha: Oh, congratulations.
[00:21:27] Tanya: Thank you. it's a bit of an autobiographical and it's a two part series. It may even be three parts. But, uh, it's from Shadows to Safari, and it's from those shadows in South Africa to where I, at some stage, was actually a game ranger in the bush.
[00:21:44] Tanya: it tells stories about inclusion and takes it right back to the boardroom of how you can use that as a life story because there's many stories in there that, that a lot of people may not necessarily relate to in having been a gang ranger
[00:21:59] Trisha: that's right. Not
[00:22:00] Tanya: but there's lots of.
[00:22:03] Tanya: There's lots of transferable skills though, right? And, so the book is, uh, I've, I've just created a new keynote around the book as well. The book will be, be ready in the next month.
[00:22:13] Tanya: And, uh, then we also have the diversity and inclusion summit that we host. well, the fourth one is taking place, in November.
[00:22:21] Tanya: , coming up, in Melbourne for the first time, we've done it three years in a row, now in Perth. And it was created originally as a, as a place to bring people together to learn about diversity and inclusion, but have the real deep down conversations. Talk about what really matters, but also talks about what have you implemented and what hasn't worked?
[00:22:43] Tanya: What lessons have you learned from that? What were some of the challenges where we can have The real conversations as opposed to, I think often you hear diversity and inclusion conversations around what we can do and what we should be doing rather than what we've already done and has work that others could learn from.
[00:22:59] Tanya: so yeah, that's probably a snapshot of some of the things that we do.
[00:23:04] Trisha: Some really significant work there. And I haven't had the pleasure yet of attending one of the conferences. And sadly, this year again, I'll be in the US during it. So I won't be, but it's going to be prioritized for next year so that we can, I can be there with you. I think I have read. many people's stories of being at the conference and speaking about their learning.
[00:23:26] Trisha: I think it's also a place where people can speak about things that haven't worked, which is, I think, unusual because many conferences want to put a shine on things. And yet we know from working, you know, in, in the cultural sphere that there are some tough times. And as you admitted, Before you and your husband spent some time crying on the couch, you know, in organizations, there are sometimes those embarrassing moments, those difficult moments when people feel that they're not quite a part of the team.
[00:23:53] Trisha: And so to be able to speak about not just what has worked and what we are doing well, but also what didn't work so well and how we can avoid that in the future. I think that's a great opportunity. So This is a conference where people can be real and authentic about the work that they're doing, is the feeling that I certainly have got from speaking with you and with others who've been there.
[00:24:14] Tanya: Yes, thank you. And I think we also have to acknowledge that diversity fatigue is real. There's, there's, there's a lot more people now that felt that they had diversity, equity and inclusion pushed down their throats for whatever reason. And, and it's only when we acknowledge that, that we can really move forward and build on that.
[00:24:33] Trisha: absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's really important to also, because I feel sometimes for the wellbeing of people working in the area, because it can be challenging. It can be thankless. It can be feeling like you're, pushing boulders up hills. So it can be an opportunity of encouragement and refreshment for people to get together and speak about how things are going in these sorts of environments, which I think is a really important wellbeing, resource as well. So Tanya, this is, this is fascinating and I'm sure a lot of people will want to connect with you and follow up. How is it best for them to do that? And also if they want to attend the conference in Melbourne, how is it best for them to find out more about it?
[00:25:14] Tanya: That's probably a couple of ways to get hold of me, but, uh, LinkedIn is always an easy platform. I'm just under my name as Tanya Finnie on LinkedIn. We also have a Diversity and Inclusion Summit page, literally called Diversity and Inclusion Summit on LinkedIn, where we regularly release all the new speakers and some extra fun facts that's not on the website.
[00:25:35] Tanya: And we have the two websites. We have redhead communications.com and the diversity, and it's just diversity and inclusion. summit.com dot au. So there's a au with the, uh, diversity and Inclusion Summit, but no au with redhead Communications or at simple email at info@redheadcommunications.com if they wanna directly get in touch as well.
[00:25:59] Trisha: Fantastic. And when is the conference in Melbourne?
[00:26:02] Tanya: The conference is on the 15th of November, so only two weeks away and uh, around the corner.
[00:26:09] Trisha: Excellent. Well, I'm looking forward to hearing all about it and how it goes, and very much looking forward to reading your book. Will you have that book at the conference?
[00:26:18] Tanya: The plan is, it's a tight turnaround on the two weeks, uh, we are very, very close and I'm hoping to have it there. Time will tell. I
[00:26:29] Trisha: Fantastic. So as our concluding questions, I'd love to know what advice you would give someone who's hoping to follow in your footsteps and bring about major change in individuals and organizations.
[00:26:41] Tanya: I think there's probably, I think we have to pick a lane first of all. We, we, we can all only be a specialist in, in certain things. Pick your lane. And stick with your lane. I sometimes call myself a proud salmon. And I think my advice would be be a proud salmon. Swim upstream. You know, salmon, takes a journey, uh, to, to actually reproduce ultimately upstream.
[00:27:07] Tanya: And it's, tricky and it's hard work. And sometimes I think we feel like we, we, as you said earlier, push, push boulders uphill, right? But I really believe in that one degree of change that over time makes an absolutely enormous difference. So I think sometimes the voices in our head is our worst enemy.
[00:27:26] Tanya: So stick with your beliefs and share and, um, make the world a better place by seeing those different perspectives, but be a salmon.
[00:27:35] Trisha: That's wonderful. There's a really good technique for when we need to shift when we're feeling like everything's too hard. We just see that salmon and be inspired to continue on.
[00:27:45] Tanya: Love it.
[00:27:46] Trisha: Tanya, as you look at your life and the people you've worked with your family and community, and as you look at the future, what are you hoping for?
[00:27:54] Tanya: I think the big dream, which may sound a bit idealistic is, is to have no more isms. We shouldn't even have to speak about things like homophobia or racism. I'd love to see a world where we can delete all of that because if we, if we can see those other perspectives, we can obviously avoid, avoid wars, for example.
[00:28:15] Tanya: But, uh, maybe dialing it down to something slightly smaller to start with. I think we need to start with ourselves. We, we can't, we can't change the world or change others unless we understand ourselves, know where we come from, understand our history, understand our own triggers and, focus then outwards and, and come in with, with grace.
[00:28:37] Tanya: How can we help others? How can we support others? And be curious. That would be my final thing is be curious.
[00:28:45] Trisha: I love it. Thank you very much. And it's Dr. Tanya Finnie thank you very much for being with us today and for all that you've shared with us.
[00:28:56] Tanya: Thank you, Trisha
[00:28:57] Trisha: And listeners, we hope that you are following along on your podcast app or wherever you listen to us. And we look forward to connecting with you again on the next episode of The Shift.
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