I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.
[00:00:14] Trisha: Hi there, everyone. I'm Trisha Carter. An organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a bit of a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives, especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness, the shifts in thinking.
[00:01:02] Trisha: Those of you who have listened to some of the earlier episodes will know well that cultural intelligence, the capability to be effective in situations of diversity, is made up of four areas. Motivational, the drive. Cognitive, the knowledge. Metacognitive, the strategy. And behavioral, the action. And all four of these capabilities help us operate effectively in situations of diversity. In this podcast, we're focusing more on the metacognitive aspect thinking about our thinking, and it's called CQ Strategy. My guest today is someone I've had the privilege of learning from over a number of years on many different aspects that have influenced my work and my skills. Dr. Michelle McQuaid is a best selling author.
[00:01:45] Trisha: She describes herself as a skeptical, award winning researcher, a playful change activist, and a reforming good girl. There's a lot to unpack here and I'm really looking forward to doing so. Welcome, Michelle McQuaid.
[00:02:00] Michelle: Hey, Trisha, it's lovely to be with you.
[00:02:03] Trisha: Thank you. Over the years, you've, you've led a number of really significant research projects and you've been at the forefront of many of the shifts that workplaces were crying out for. You and your partners created the Change Lab and the Leadership Lab, always with a focus on well being at work. And you're now speaking to a new need that's shaking up individual hearts and minds.
[00:02:24] Trisha: So there are many, many shifts that you have initiated and experienced. But before we go to that, I want to ask the questions we ask all our guests. Michelle, what is the culture, other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?
[00:02:41] Michelle: So, Trisha, I've had the pleasure and privilege of living in many different parts of the world, but the culture for me right now that stands out most is actually a hybrid culture of amazing women who are called the Soul Wanderers. and this is a group of women that live near me locally, in Melbourne, Australia, primarily, and they tend to have a commonality around yoga and sort of those spiritual practices that come with it, but also for the love of putting our feet on the earth and going hiking. And so actually in a couple of weeks time, we're heading over to Japan to Mount Fuji to do some hiking there. I will stay in a little monastery. And what I love about the soul wanderers and the culture of it is there is just this place of unconditional love and acceptance of each other.
[00:03:30] Michelle: We come from all sorts of walks of life, different backgrounds, different journeys, different hopes and needs, but whenever we're together, that shared love of just the simplicity of what is the mess and the magic of life and the privilege it is to get to live it for me is my heart's happy place
[00:03:47] Trisha: Ah that's wonderful. It sounds like there's a lot of shared values, and then shared actions that you take and doing things together.
[00:03:55] Michelle: very much. And I think it's so interesting how unifying the shared values and actions is, even when so much of our context is so different from each other, when we're not in that moment, sharing an adventure like Japan together.
[00:04:07] Trisha: And how wonderful to have found them.
[00:04:09] Michelle: Yeah. So lucky. Yeah.
[00:04:13] Trisha: moving on to our next question. Can you tell me about a time when you experienced the shift when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?
[00:04:21] Michelle: Yeah. For me, it's been some of this new work you touched on that around the good girl mindsets. And I certainly knew growing up that I was encouraged to be a good girl. It was often, you know, explicitly said to me in the houses where I grew up, I had a book as a child, a story book, called the good little bad little girl that I used to get my mother to read me at night and all the was she was a good little girl.
[00:04:44] Michelle: And all the ways she was a bad little girl and if she just helped the good girl grow taller and taller and the bad little girl smaller and smaller, then she would be happy and loved. So, It's conditioning very early on in life and the truth is, I know from the research I've done and others have done all over the world, not unique story to me.
[00:05:01] Michelle: And of course, guys get a similar conditioning often more around being tough guys or strong boys. So there's kind of societal expectations. And about probably a decade ago, I kept coming back to the memory of the storybook. I didn't have it anymore, but I was like, something about that storybook and having it read to me as a young age, I'm like, I need to find this book and rewrite this story.
[00:05:23] Michelle: And I actually was able to hunt it down on eBay. I got a copy of it and then I stuck it in the cupboard and didn't do anything with it. And so it was sort of, it's been stages of aha. I think that was sort of the first inkling that these beliefs are not serving me well. I am now a grown ass woman and I'm still stuck in these ideas that I need to be performing perfectly and pleasing everyone and protecting others.
[00:05:45] Michelle: And then actually it was when I was away with the Soul Wanderers last year, we hiked through Nepal, through the Anaconda Mountains and I was sitting on a mountaintop in one of our yoga practices and I really felt this like - calling to my heart. I was like, you know, what am I meant to be doing next in this world?
[00:06:02] Michelle: And it was very clear I should be joyfully following what called to my heart. And I was like, well, that sounds awesome, but what the heck is that? And then next thing that came into my head was the picture of this cover of this book. And all of a sudden I was really clear about I needed to rewrite this storybook, not just for myself, but for others as well to do the research and understand how these beliefs impact women.
[00:06:26] Michelle: And how do we. free ourselves of them, what would the world look like without it? And so the aha in all of that sort of period in the coming weeks and months after that was that there were two questions that I find over and over have set me free and seem to help others. And that is on whose terms. And for whose benefit are we behaving in these ways?
[00:06:47] Michelle: And the moment I used those questions, and the first one for me was thinking about these good girl mindsets, on whose terms was I trying to perform perfectly, please everyone protect others? It wasn't my terms.
[00:07:00] Michelle: Originally, maybe it was my mum's, bless her, you know, it made her life quieter. I think also she was trying to protect and prepare me for the world that she knew at that time, where again, you know, this was in the seventies, women were just getting allowed to have their own credit cards and bank accounts.
[00:07:15] Michelle: And then also, as I went through school and through workplaces, I got a lot of reinforcement to be this good girl, but it was normally always on somebody else's terms and for somebody else's benefit and quite often at my cost. And so that aha of realizing. It can't always be at my cost. It's not sustainable, energetically, spiritually, physically.
[00:07:40] Michelle: And also, interestingly, Trisha, as I've played with it, it doesn't serve me well to always be only on my terms and for my benefit. So you kind of think the other extreme to that is, well, then it's all about me. It has to be right. And everybody else can sort themselves out. But actually what I've learned as I keep playing with these questions, maybe the second aha that's settled into this, is it ideally in the best scenarios is a win win.
[00:08:05] Michelle: Yes, it's some of my terms, but might be some of yours. And yes, it's for my benefit and hopefully for your benefit as well, because then we get to stay in healthy relationship with ourselves and each other as we navigate this world. So that's been the big unfolding aha of this past 12 months for me.
[00:08:22] Trisha: Oh, that's wonderful. And. I mean, you can sort of see the environment of being on a, was it a mountaintop?
[00:08:30] Michelle: Literally sitting on a mountain in Nepal. I mean, could you get more cliche than that Trisha?
[00:08:35] Trisha: I, I don't think I've had a shift quite described to me like that yet. but I think it's wonderful and, and the recognition that there was something, something else, something more, and then just the searching for it and obviously a lot of reflection as well.
[00:08:51] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:08:52] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:08:52] Trisha: Do you reflect as you think through those things?
[00:08:55] Trisha: Are you a journaler or do you reflect with other people, you know, bouncing things backwards and forwards?
[00:09:00] Michelle: All of the above. I, definitely was raised to be a doer. So, go, go, go, was the mantra in my mother's house growing up, keep things moving. And that's been really hard for me to make space from. It's taken me, I think, you know, getting older and having a bit more lived experience, and my body slowing down a little bit more, to actually go, as much as I love being able to go, go, go, and get things done, having space to slow, slow, slow.
[00:09:29] Michelle: and reflect and sit with the complexity of things to sit with how they feel in my body to learn to actually trust and feel things in my body not just always run them from my cognitive mind. I journal, I walk a lot, in nature for me, often chatting away to myself, either silently or out loud, depends on the day.
[00:09:50] Michelle: But I absolutely thrive on having people I can bounce ideas off. And I have a dear friend, Maureen McKenna, and she and I, every fortnight, we just sit down for like an hour or more together. She's in Canada, I'm in Australia. So we do it on WhatsApp. And we just explore whatever is lighting a sapota and I always come off those calls feeling so nourished and rich and engaged and inspired by life.
[00:10:17] Michelle: So I think yes, it's awesome to journal and have that reflecting space alone, but you need buddies and safe spaces and challenging spaces to take ideas out and have healthy debates and turn them around and add different ideas and sources to them that you yourself wouldn't come across.
[00:10:34] Trisha: Yes. That's brilliant. And shout out to Mo.
[00:10:37] Trisha: Hi, who I
[00:10:38] Michelle: . Hey Mo!
[00:10:39] Trisha: Who I met on one of your courses, and, have obviously never actually met in person, but, have been in touch with since. Yeah. So that's wonderful. And speaking of that course that, I did meet Maureen, , that was a part of your work on leadership and on change.
[00:10:54] Trisha: And I've done a lot of, you know, learning with you on that. I'm thinking about, some of that learning was the certificate for positive change and you took us all it was a large group of people if I remember rightly through a change process that had its foundation and appreciative inquiry and I know that was the, core of your PhD work.
[00:11:15] Trisha: Can you tell us a little bit about appreciative inquiry and how your research in that area has informed and continues to inform your work.
[00:11:23] Michelle: yeah, most definitely. So appreciative inquiry is a strength based approach to creating change. That's the really easy way to think about it. How the heck do we create change? And how do we do that from a place that we are intentionally looking for what's working and how do we build on that, the strengths that we have, rather than often we look at change through the deficit lens of what's not working and How do we
[00:11:46] Trisha: we fix it?
Yeah.
[00:11:48] Michelle: Which is not to say, of course, as you know only too well, Trisha, that an appreciative inquiry approach can't deal with the things that needs fixing. It's just that we're going to come to it through that lens of, well, what is working about that? How do we build on that? Because we see a quicker return.
[00:12:03] Michelle: On our efforts and investments when we do that, because those things work for really good reasons, individually and collectively. And can we use those strengths to close some of that gap on what's not working? Or are there bits here that we still need to go ahead on? And I love Dr. David Cooperrider, the founder of that approach, and his colleagues suggest that most of the time when we approach change, We tend to spend 80 percent of our effort focused on fixing what's wrong and only 20 percent building on the strengths and appreciative inquiry tries to help us flip that equation again.
[00:12:33] Michelle: I think super important to say we're not ignoring the strengths. We're not not ignoring the weaknesses. We're not scared to go there. But we are intentionally swinging our efforts towards this strengths focused. So I loved it. I grew up with a lot of change in my life. By the time I was in year seven, I'd been to seven different schools, three different States.
[00:12:53] Michelle: You know, it was go, go, go, as I said, in my mother's house. Bless her. And so I was not a fan of change. Not surprisingly, perhaps Trisha, by the time I got to my teenage years, I was like, let's lock that stuff down. We're just going to make it steady and stable and nothing's going to shift anymore, and then I'll be able to breathe.
[00:13:10] Michelle: And of course, life's not like that
[00:13:12] Michelle: because we. Constantly, we are sitting here in front of each other changing right now. And so then I was like, right, if you can't beat them, you have to join them. So I need to figure out how do we change in more effective and enjoyable and sustainable ways. And so appreciative inquiry for me really gave me those tools.
[00:13:32] Michelle: Number one for that strength based approach, but then the other really big part of appreciative inquiry is this very simple cycle. That's called the 4D cycle. That helps us to Discover what's working where we're struggling to then help us Dream. Well, if we built on those strengths, what might be possible? So we get the hope going then to help us Design or what would it take to move from where we are now to where that dream is taking us. So again, we draw on lots of the design thinking style practices there, and then to Deploy to go, okay, well, what's the small step? What's the next thing that I would start moving to make those hopes my reality.
[00:14:09] Michelle: And so I love these four D's.
[00:14:11] Michelle: Are so simple for me to be able to go, where am I in this cycle of change? How do I keep drawing on those strengths, connect to my hopes, use those design thinking tools and execute the actions as is appropriate and keep moving through that, right. As the world around and within us keeps evolving and changing.
[00:14:31] Michelle: So that's a little on appreciative inquiry. I'm happy to go deeper if you want me into any specific parts. but that's why I've found it so powerful. Yeah,
[00:14:39] Trisha: and, and the same when we, when we did it. And I think one of the things that stuck with me always is thinking of the arc that you take people through as you work through that process. And so any facilitation that I've done since, I've always thought, how am I taking people on an arc through this journey of what we, whatever it is that we're learning and discovering and using those principles so that you almost assist people as they're taking towards the shifts so that you help them to be, moving in the right directions and being open as they go through. I think that was, for me, that was something that was made very explicit by your work.
[00:15:21] Michelle: Yeah, and I love that moving in the right directions because what is right for each of us, right? Who am I to say what's right for you or you for me? And so the other thing I really love around appreciative inquiry is it is this genuine open invitation of what do you care enough to own? What is right for you?
[00:15:42] Michelle: Right now, in this context, with the resources that you have available for the outcomes that you want. And so, while absolutely at times with workplaces when I'm there, they may be, we just need compliance. We just need to tell people, this is the thing you do, and we just need you to get on and do it. So we think about COVID, for example, and we needed to get lots of people suddenly working from home, we needed compliance. And so again, a lot more of our traditional change approaches can be fined for compliance, though I say compliance is short lived. So it worked for a little bit, but once that risk has passed, it's not going to stay that way. Whereas really what we want long term is commitment to most changes.
[00:16:20] Michelle: We want you to care enough. personally to own that change, that you will stay with it, that you will continue to evolve it as things change within you and around you. And so what I love about that appreciative inquiry cycle, and then it's grounding around the questions that we ask so that you can find your own answers that you care enough to own.
[00:16:42] Michelle: To move you through the change, I just think is so powerful. And the last piece I'll say on that, cause often that makes sometimes people who are in leadership roles or organizations really nervous about, well, what if my people don't want the change that I need them to want is. Isn't it better to know that as a leader sooner than later?
[00:17:02] Michelle: Because the truth is, if you force them through the change, and they don't want that, they still don't want it. And if you invite them into the change, but they don't feel they can be honest about the fact they're not that excited about the changes that you want, or it's not meaningful to them. All that happens is they nod their heads in those conversations, and then they go away later.
[00:17:21] Michelle: And don't do any of the things that you asked and three months, six months down the track, you're like, why isn't this change working? Well, nobody was on board from the outset. They just weren't prepared to tell you. So I always say, I would much rather that your people feel safe to be honest enough and tell us upfront, not really on board with that.
[00:17:38] Michelle: Not really excited about that. Let's have that conversation sooner than later. Then sit there all nodding our heads, pretending that, Oh yeah, sure, we'll do this. And then nothing shifts and we lose months in the process of it. So I always say to leaders, Yes, this can feel nervous. What do people care enough to own?
[00:17:55] Michelle: Versus what am I paying you to do? And the reality is nothing happens for very long that people don't genuinely care enough to own anyway.
[00:18:03] Trisha: yes, and we know enough about the number of failed change projects. So
[00:18:07] Trisha: yes,
[00:18:09] Michelle: I think the evidence is all around us on this one.
[00:18:12] Trisha: absolutely, yeah, I've been reading your sub stack and in the sub stack profile you say data insights are the foundation, but practical nudges are the prize. And, I've valued some of the data insights that you've shared. We don't have time to go into them now, but I can certainly put links to some of them, , in the show notes in terms of things like leadership , and the impact of leadership on wellbeing.
[00:18:35] Trisha: But how do you use both the data insights and the nudges to bring about change?
[00:18:41] Michelle: so first and foremost, I grew up as a practitioner. I studied communication, I worked in marketing and branding roles around people's behaviors and how did you bring out the best in them. And then, in my late 30s, early 40s, I went and did a master's in applied positive psychology, which threw me into the world of research and academia and data in a way that I really hadn't experienced a lot of up to that point in my life.
[00:19:08] Michelle: And I think my strength was that. was actually coming from the practitioner side first and then falling in love with the data. Because while I love the data, to me, the data only becomes valuable when there are actionable insights, things we can do off the back of it to improve our world, our lives, the ways that we're working together.
[00:19:28] Michelle: So I actually can't imagine them not going hand in hand with each other. Again, I can nerd out with the best of them. But my curiosity and creativity strengths are always, and what would we do with that
[00:19:40] Michelle: What practically can we do with that? And so again, when we look at the data on behavior change, be it individual or collective, we really do better when we have tiny nudges.
[00:19:51] Michelle: To move us forward, typically one of the reasons that behavior change fails is we set goals that are too big. We go at them too hard, and we expect results too fast. And then we quit and go, don't have any willpower. Nobody's buying into it. None of it's working. Whereas the research of Dr. BJ Fogg at Stanford and others really show that the more we can shrink that change down tiny is mighty, as we often teach from BJ's work, then we can get something going.
[00:20:18] Michelle: If we can just start showing up and making small changes. That we can stick with some degree of consistency, build our confidence, build our muscles and capability in that area, then we will start to grow and move out to the bigger things we want to achieve. And so for me, this is where the tiny nudge part really has to sit alongside the data in order to realize the value of it.
[00:20:40] Michelle: And again, we can have all sorts of tiny nudges that don't need data to be based on them. I would never discount lived experience or your own creative urges. What calls to your heart, much in the way I was sharing my aha earlier. And I think there's real benefit in tiny nudges that are evidence based, that can help accelerate our understanding of what might be effective, inspire our practices.
[00:21:03] Michelle: As long as we remember, we at the end of the day are the best judges of what works for each of us. So we need to feel permission to pull that stuff apart and then tweak as required.
[00:21:13] Trisha: And I think I've had, you know, similar experiences sometimes when I've talked about the power of journaling, which, you know, there's some solid research behind
[00:21:21] Michelle: Absolutely.
[00:21:22] Trisha: and yet have met, you know, real blocks with, and so sometimes different ways of working can be much more powerful. So working in with where the people are at and looking for the nudges that will work for them is, is often better than saying, well, this is how you achieve this.
[00:21:37] Michelle: Yeah, and really always better. It comes back to that invitation of what do you care enough to own? Because, again, if you don't care enough to want to own it from the outset, it might have all the evidence in the world to support it, but it's not meaningful to you. And therefore less likely to deliver the benefit. I love the research of Dr. Edward Deci and Richard Ryan around self determination theory. And while they say, look, you know, autonomy, belonging, relatedness and competence are these foundations for each of us to be able to thrive and to be well, and we could think about it a bit like a three legged stool at the end of the day, autonomy, Seems to be the thing that has the biggest impact on wellbeing.
[00:22:19] Michelle: And so they would really advocate that almost doesn't matter what evidence based nudges I give you, provided I allow you the choice to choose what you care enough to own in that. And so that for me was always such an important cause I love simplicity. And so some of the danger of that is, well, let me just give you one thing to
[00:22:36] Michelle: do
[00:22:36] Michelle: so that you don't have to choose between different things.
[00:22:39] Trisha: Exactly! We know this works!
[00:22:42] Michelle: Let me tell you, this is proven and you don't have to think too hard about it. Right. And not only am I teaching you to give away control of on whose terms, for whose benefit are you doing these things but I'm also, , potentially denying you the very benefit of the work I'm trying to support you in, which is to help you choose what is right for you to have a positive impact.
[00:23:04] Trisha: Yeah. That's brilliant. Thank you. And that takes us to the work that you're doing right now, where you have chosen to step into this, your most recent research that uncovered some really interesting insights about good girl thinking, and it's shaped some new playful change work.
[00:23:21] Trisha: So tell us a bit about that.
[00:23:22] Michelle: Yeah, so again, these days, whenever I want to know about something, I just throw out an invitation and see who cares enough to want to be part of the conversation. , and we had, you know, more than a hundred women all over the world come together to talk to us about, well, what did being a good girl mean to them?
[00:23:38] Michelle: What was the positive alternative to being a good girl? What were the things that made it hard to break free from those beliefs? What were the things that made it possible to break free? So really this kind of qualitative positive deviant research was where we started. What was fascinating out of that, because I come from a human thriving lens in terms of the research.
[00:23:58] Michelle: So you've mentioned I've come up through wellbeing and leadership and change, not gender studies. Um The only gender study part of this for me was I got given this book and told I had to be a good at the age of four , and I intentionally when we did the research with the women stayed away from the gender studies literature at that time because I wanted to come in with fresh eyes and without a bias to what else had already been discovered. what was fascinating out of the conversations we had with the women when we went back to try to say, well, how does this align with what was already understood in gender studies or not?
[00:24:31] Michelle: But we found incredible consistencies. And one of the things I love about the field of gender studies, which again, is reasonably new world to me, is that actually over the last 30, 40 years, the leaders of that field have come to a place where they're saying, it's actually not about gender. It's about human thriving and how to help people understand what it is to be the best version of themselves, an integrated brain, feeling well in body and mind, rather than tapping into the societal expectations. So it's kind of interesting. We're all coming to similar conclusions, but from very different starting places and different journeys on the research and different amounts of time in it.
[00:25:11] Michelle: So that was kind of like, Oh yes, sanity check. You know, we're not completely out there. So the research to me still being really important in it. And then it's how do we make these practical nudges? Because again, that is what I get out of bed every day to do. And so the women were really clear around a number of evidence based tools like self compassion, , secure attachment, , self leadership work, , using things like internal family systems and other tools.
[00:25:37] Michelle: That helped them be able to shake free those good girl beliefs and be there uniquely. You, they called it, that was their word. I'm uniquely you when I'm not being a "good girl", I'm being my unique self. , and so again, we love that this was not gendered. Well, what the alternative was, wasn't a wise woman.
[00:25:53] Michelle: That was what we thought it might've been at the outset. Wasn't a bad girl, which was a popular. It wasn't even reclaiming what did the word good girl mean, but it was actually nothing to do with gender. It was recognizing our common humanity and that capacity we have in all of us. And so, these tools then we've been able to start bringing together because self compassion, for example, with Dr. Kristen Neff, we have decades of wonderful research and tools that we can start to connect to this idea around shaking off these "good girl" beliefs, if they're not serving you well, and then having an alternative. Again, we're always really clear that sometimes those "good girl" beliefs serve us well, even though they come with a cost.
[00:26:32] Michelle: And so I think of situations in countries where, to not be an obedient woman can actually land you in really dangerous situations. I think of countries where we don't have that financial freedom to have our own bank accounts or credit cards. Again, it feels like standing here, you know, that that. It's just always been the way because as a young woman, that's what I knew growing up.
[00:26:55] Michelle: But it's only one generation away for our mother didn't have those choices in Western countries. We look at what's going on in America around, you know, freedom of body choices and things like we're going backwards, you know, in a very supposedly civilized country. So it's really interesting sort of seeing.
[00:27:12] Michelle: How do these beliefs continue to play out today and encouraging women to make their own choices about on whose terms for whose benefit that the answer here isn't just to always be uniquely you and use those tools that the answer here is to be more conscious and aware to challenge our mindsets and where they serve us well or not, and to choose what is right for each of us in the context we're in and for the outcomes and resources we have available to us.
[00:27:40] Michelle: It's been lots of fun for me. The research is there. The nudges are there. The addition to this for me, Trisha, is really two things. One was to stop. I realized that I'd spent a lot of time the last two decades hiding behind the data. For me, giving you all the data is my safe space and it is Little of me personally on the line when I do that, other than that these are things that fascinate me.
[00:28:02] Michelle: So trying to learn how to tell in the ways that are right for me and right for others some of my more personal story alongside is to be seen in all my dimensions, not just the ones that I'm most comfortable in. It's definitely a work in progress. And the other one is, again, I went out on my own in my own little business running all of this now, almost 14 years ago.
[00:28:28] Michelle: And I came out of big companies like IBM and Pricewaterhouse Coopers. So of course, first thing I had a business plan and a budget and milestones and how I'm going to make. And so, you know, and that's really how that part of my business has run all those years. This is not that. This is a again back to that mountain on Nepal, what joyfully called to my heart.
[00:28:49] Michelle: And so it's been really interesting playing with this as a piece of research and action that is driven just by what joyfully calls to my heart. So it has no business plan other than, um, In march will release two little books out of the research and work, and I don't know what'll happen after that. Maybe that's it and I get to that moment and my body tells me that's all it needed to be, you're done.
[00:29:11] Michelle: Maybe there's something else on the other side of it, but that not pushing and striving, but letting it be a joyful adventure that's unfolding. It's a very different way for me to be feeling my way through something like this.
[00:29:23] Trisha: Yes. It certainly is. And it's, I guess, is it a challenge at times to step in that way?
[00:29:30] Michelle: Yes, definitely, because I think you know, the business plans and the like, give us the illusion that we're in control.
[00:29:37] Trisha: Yes. Yep.
[00:29:38] Michelle: They're like, you know, a safety blanket or something like we've had as kids, right? And of course, we know from all of the change research, none of us are in control. The idea that we're in control, that we can manage change is a complete delusion.
[00:29:51] Trisha: Yes.
[00:29:52] Michelle: And so it feels very vulnerable and raw and tender to be going, you know what, I'm going What I do know is from here to March, we're working through this little book, we're building up the sub stack, we'll launch these things and then we'll see, maybe that's it and it's done and it's opening space for whatever comes after that.
[00:30:11] Michelle: Maybe there's a next stage to this that'll start to unfold and we'll find our way forward on that. But to accept that I don't have all the answers for what will happen next on this feels like a very, both scary and liberating place, depending on the day you ask me.
[00:30:27] Trisha: Yes. Right. And I can appreciate that. And can imagine some of the work you're probably doing on your mindset in the meantime.
[00:30:34] Michelle: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And that trust again, back to that secure attachment tool that the women talked about in the research, to know that I, whatever happens, I will figure it out. I will figure it out one way or the other. And, you know, I say that as a single mum with a mortgage to pay and things like, I don't have a massive financial safety net that I'm just out there cruising the world on, so I'm disconnected from those things.
[00:30:57] Michelle: Money and needing to be able to provide for my family are absolutely essential needs at this stage of my life. And that the fear of being driven by the money alone is not how I choose to live my life anymore, because that is on somebody else's terms and for somebody else's benefit, not mine. And so how instead do I come to those responsibilities from a place of love?
[00:31:25] Michelle: and care and self compassion knowing that there are real tangible requirements and consequences and that fear is not going to be the driver of me meeting those things.
[00:31:35] Trisha: I think that would speak to a lot of people as they listen to this. And I'm thinking too about that, you know, as you spoke about that openness and uncertainty, and a lot of the people that I work with who are moving across countries and cultures and organizations are moving them around the world. and sometimes also the partners of those people, that complete uncertainty that you have about what am I going to do in this new country and you know what. You yourself have moved locations a number of times and so you've experienced that too. What did you do to help yourself adapt and shift in those situations?
[00:32:10] Michelle: So the first time we moved was to London was pre kids. My just married husband at that time had a job over there so I was moving to join trying to figure out how I'd have my own career and the like. that time I knew nothing. I moved to London. He was in Sweden. We'd fly back and forth on weekends. And so I expected I should be able to lock it all down, control it, and get on with it. And then when we moved back to Australia after about 18 months, because his role finished there, I also expected coming home. I was so excited to be coming back to Australia. It'd be like, everything will go back to the way it was. It'll be fantastic. Neither thing was true either side of that. So I was like, oh my goodness. So I remember Coming back to Australia must have been about three months after we were home and looking back on that first experience and going, all right, it really took six months after I moved to London to feel like I had any sort of semblance of structure, routine, ritual, community around me again.
[00:33:06] Michelle: And I hadn't given myself the grace of that time or expectation or even quite understood that I was going on this big experimental adventure and I needed to push myself out there sometimes more and also to know that not all of it would work straight away and that would be okay. I would figure it out and the same coming home.
[00:33:24] Michelle: I thought coming home would be so easy. It was almost as hard if not harder Because I didn't of course, you know, like the first week or two is amazing seeing everyone and catching up then you realize they're all doing the exact same thing they were doing when you left and in the meantime like you've changed your whole world
[00:33:41] Trisha: You have changed so much.
[00:33:43] Trisha: Yes.
[00:33:44] Michelle: Why was this so fantastic again?
[00:33:45] Michelle: I can't
[00:33:47] Michelle: So then the next time we went we went to New York and that was with my role And so again, I had in my mind in six months grace going in and six months grace coming out. And that made a world of difference because instead of thinking the whole time in those first few months, I'm bailing. I hate this. I want to go home.
[00:34:06] Michelle: I was more. It's only the first. Don't judge anything until the first six months is done because I don't really know enough of how this is all going to land until we do. And we love New York. Again, I think different to your point when you're the one that's moving for your role because you immediately land in an organization.
[00:34:21] Michelle: The road running, have a bit more social structure and support around you than when you're the supporting partner. So in that case, my husband was the supporting partner. He stayed at home for those six months, drove me bonkers. We had a three year old son by then. So then I was like, you have to get a job because I'm in trouble every time I come home about the house and the systems and the things I'm not doing.
[00:34:42] Michelle: and then more recently, a few years ago, we went to Toronto, which was with his role. We then had a 14 year old and a nine year old. So older kids to go as well. And so I was able to run my business from there, but different time zones. And so I was working really hard to make that work. But again, the six month grace, both sides made all the difference so that I didn't feel, so worried in those early days that it wasn't working. I'd made a mistake. I should never have done this. Um, yeah, so six months grace, That's my best. It is like coming and going. Yeah.
[00:35:17] Trisha: That's right. That's, give yourself time. you need time for a shift. It isn't an aha and you've got it.
[00:35:23] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:35:24] Michelle: And again, I think actively experimenting, like where are the people, the places, the ritual, like sounds silly, but even just finding the little cafes or restaurants you like, like give you some grounding place.
[00:35:35] Michelle: Right. One or two friends, even if they're introductions from other people, help you start to get to know people. And that was, Mo and I knew each other beforehand, but we became really good friends because she lives in Toronto
[00:35:49] Michelle: when I got there. And so we knew each other a little as colleagues. But when I got to Toronto, Mo was like, I'm going to come and take you out and I will drive you to different neighborhoods regularly.
[00:35:59] Michelle: And we'll go and have a meal somewhere and I'll teach you the history of Toronto. And so that was what we started doing. And then. The global shutdown COVID happened and then we started walking, everywhere. And so that was what got us both through COVID was every Saturday we'd go and walk a different neighborhood, in Toronto.
[00:36:15] Trisha: Oh that's wonderful
[00:36:16] Michelle: So again, two years later, we've been home. We're still as close as we were, when we were there in person.
[00:36:22] Trisha: Yeah.
[00:36:22] Michelle: So great things can come home with you from these adventures.
[00:36:25] Trisha: Indeed. Yeah. Lots of, lots of strengths that you pick up along the way, including relationships, special people. Yeah. Michelle, how can people who want to connect with you, do so to follow up if they wish to do?
[00:36:38] Michelle: Yeah. Head to the good girl game changers com, is the best place. That's where you can see all of our new work. The other though would be michelleMcQuaid. com. So if you're wanting more of the workplace leadership change sort of stuff, it's there. If you're more interested in that good girl sort of piece, head on over to the good girl game changers com.
[00:36:58] Trisha: Fantastic. We'll put both of those links and maybe your LinkedIn, profile as well in, in the show notes so that people can connect. And so our concluding questions, what advice would you give someone who's going to follow in your footsteps and shift away from an established area of work into a whole new area of something like research and design or a different business sort of angle?
[00:37:22] Michelle: go gently. I think it feels like it takes so much momentum to make that kind of shift. It's such a leap of faith. And I remember, you know, working myself up to make that leap of faith and leave my day job to follow this passion. And I thought, Oh, I've done it. Like, you know, I'd resigned. I've like lived.
[00:37:39] Michelle: And then it was a few days after the leap. I realized. Oh, crap. Now it's all up to me to deliver it. So just, you know, go gently if you can make sure you've got a little safety net. I was fortunate. I had sort of a client for my first six months that just gave me some coverage to land there. In fact, I was talking to Mo the other day, who also runs her business.
[00:37:58] Michelle: And she's like, I always tell people, make sure you have at least 6 to 12 months of financial, Freedom
[00:38:05] Michelle: to be able to give yourself a chance to grow into the role. And so that means you're juggling a little bit, or again, you've kind of got a client that's coming on board, but just take that pressure off yourself and then really think about the networks of how you're going to sell it.
[00:38:19] Michelle: So, again, I know problems doing the research and creating the tools, but if I can't find people who will buy it. Then I was very quickly almost out of business. And so again, I was so enjoying creating stuff about six months in when that client was starting to finish their work. I was like, Oh, you know, where's the next bit of income coming from?
[00:38:38] Michelle: So go gently, um, do give yourself, if you can, a six to 12 month kind of graceful landing period. So it's not too intense and overwhelming.
[00:38:47] Trisha: Mm. Great advice. Thank you.
[00:38:49] Trisha: And as you look at your life and the people you've worked with, colleagues and clients, family and community, and as you look at the future, what are you hoping for, Michelle?
[00:38:58] Michelle: Yeah, so I'm really hoping for a world where more of us can be freeing ourselves of societal expectations, whether it's gender or anything else, but having more access to the knowledge and the tools and support we need to embody our unique selves. And again, we touched on, while there's absolutely a good girl mindset, there is a strong boy mindset, like None of us are winning from these things.
[00:39:22] Michelle: There's a very small handful of people that benefit from the ideas that we have to perform to these roles. I think, you know, guys are struggling just as much as women are with the set of expectations that are on their shoulders. And I think the more we can have that space to start asking on whose terms and for whose benefits am I living my wild and precious life.
[00:39:43] Michelle: The more we might start to make choices that serve our common humanity better, and step out of this win lose scenario we seem to be stuck going around in circles in.
[00:39:55] Trisha: yeah, that sounds like a picture of thriving that we all long for. Thank you so much, Michelle. And thank you, listeners. I really appreciate you joining us and your learning and growth. Please make sure that you've pushed follow or subscribe on your podcast app so that you can make sure to receive the next episode of The Shift.