This is the Restaurant Technology Guys podcast, helping you run your restaurant better.
Welcome back to the restaurant technology guys. I thank everyone out there for joining us. I'm excited about today's show because I've got a couple on and we'll let them introduce themselves here in just a second. funny enough, the brand that they started with has been on the show one time before those longtime listeners, probably about two years ago. But, why don't, Michelle, why don't you lead us off with introducing yourself and then you can introduce your partner in life and in business.
And, and then we can get to talking about, about what you guys get to do for a living, both that, at the coffee shop and then, your guys new passion project.
Thank you. My name is Michelle Fish. I am the co founder of One Big Island in Space, which is the project we're really here to talk about. And my handsome husband, Robert Fish, is the co founder of Biggby Coffee.
Yeah, and, I don't go anything, as formal as Robert.
I was like, Robert, it's the first time I've heard this.
Who's that guy, right?
I didn't use your middle name.
but yeah, Mike and I, started Biggby Coffee, 1995. We started franchising in 1999. today we have just under 400 units in 13 states. We're pretty sure we'll be to a thousand units by 2028. things are really rocking and rolling there. but in 2018, after doing a lot of research, I discovered that, that actually, coffee, coffee that has to grow and that we buy, is under threat and it's under threat for two major reasons. One is climate change.
And so because of the consequences of climate change, where wet areas get wetter and dry areas get drier, there's a lot of coffee farms that are failing.
Assessing.
then the other thing that is, putting coffee at threat is the C contract or the commodities marketplace. how that functions out there, is such that often, the coffee farmer, the coffee producer gets paid less than what it. Cost them to produce their coffee and anybody that's been in business, knows that you can only do that for so long and then you can't be in business anymore. farming is a business after all.
And so again, people are just walking away from their farms and this is, an epidemic of people leaving, the coffee production. Industry. we decided to create one big online space. We spelled big with two G's by the way. And what we decided to do in order to solve that problem, because, we were running this business that is a retail cafe and, Oh, by the way, coffee is really important to, to that business model. How do we secure coffee for the future?
what we decided was that we'd create a direct trade model. Now we call that farm direct and what a direct trade model does is it allows an end user like us, to buy directly from a producer, and eliminate as many of. the people in the middle as possible. And some of those people in the middle are nefarious. Some of those people in the middle are unnecessary, every time that coffee touches another hand, the price goes up a little bit more.
so when we eliminate those, we get a savings and what we do with that savings is push it down to the producer or the farmer and what that does for them is make it. more economically viable for them and they can begin to adopt practices that cost money, agronomy practices, farming practices that can actually combat, climate change. In other words, there are different varieties of coffee. There are different ways to farm, even though what areas are getting wetter and dry areas are getting drier.
so what we've done is create a model where we can have. A secure supply of coffee at a really stable price. And that's what we've done for our owner operators, our franchisees. And. We think by working on this particular model and creating these relationships that, we are creating essentially a competitive moat around our business may not be visible today, but in, in not in, in not too distant future, that will be a distinct competitive advantage.
Now, we only work with certain kinds of people and the kinds of people we work with from a farming perspective are people that are already treating their people. So something that's what we would say is beyond fair trade. We work with people that are treating the planet right. And From that perspective, we'd say something beyond USDA organic. In other words, regenerative methods of farming. And then finally, we work with people that are investing in their community.
And that's a little bit like finding a needle in a haystack when you have to find coffee producers, that, that are, that exist around the world, by the way, and I'll pass it off at the end of this, little note here, coffee grows all over the world. At altitude, between the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn, equidistant from the equator. So it grows in Central and South America. It grows in Africa and it grows in Asia. And so we visit these communities looking for these people.
I, I, that was a lot and fantastic. I said it at the onset though. Bob, I'd love for those that are less familiar with the cafes, can you just give us a, a quick history lesson and then, I can't wait to talk to Michelle about, the inception of this, of where this came from. But for those that are less familiar with the cafes, I was privileged enough. And those that heard, me talk to your co founder a couple of years ago. and again, I'm.
Admittedly, not a huge coffee fan, but I do love, enjoying the atmosphere, having another type of beverage, maybe something to eat in cafes all over the place. And so talk to me a little bit about what is Biggby coffee for people that haven't experienced it or haven't, haven't been into one of your guys cafes.
Because I do think it's, I do think it's critical to understand why you guys are so passionate, not just about the cafes and what they do and your franchisees, but it really is a thread that I've seen every time I've been engaged with your brand that I think our listeners need to understand.
Yeah. our cafes are really a people centric, place, in a community centric place, our cafes are, colorful, they're. active, they're bright. they're unassuming and, they, they are generous. They are all those things. that's how we'd identify that. this idea of being people centric, A core, to our business, our mission, or rather our, our purpose in business is to support people in building a life they love, And, we follow the stakeholder model of business.
So when we say that we support you in building a life, you love, we're not just talking about, our home office or our owner operators or their baristas or. the customers, we're talking about everybody, including, vendors and all the families associated with that. And, our vision, by 2028 for Big B Coffee is to improve workplace culture in America. So we think.
That, in our business model of serving coffee, embedded in that is, part of the model is to demonstrate, that the workplace can be a regenerative place for people, the, our society is, ripe with, anxiety and stress and, both financial and emotional and so on, you spend it. eight hours a day at work. 40 hours a week. It's a place that we can have an impact on this world. And we think that's really important. Yeah,
to get into one of the cafes, I would encourage you guys. And I know that I know some very large percentage of the world does drink coffee. And so I know I'm in the minority. I get it. Everybody shames me for it. Funny enough. And I think I told Mike this story. We got a chance to go to the big coffee brand that happens to be in the Pacific North Northwest one time.
And, since I don't drink coffee, but they've got a whole bar of, I don't know, 40 different kinds of coffee from all around the world. And, my line is, I've had my limit for the day, which to coffee drinkers, I guess means something because you just, but I'm like, you know what? My limit is zero. So I just had my limit for the day when I went in there, when they offered me the coffee, cause it was a bit easier to do that than it was to say, I'm sorry, I don't drink coffee.
And they probably would have kicked me out, when I had that appointment. Michelle, talk to me a little bit about where does this passion project come from? Because I got to listen to Bob talk about that and you can see both of your guys eyes light up when you guys talk about a world that's better, but talk to me, actually talk to me first about the name and then let's talk about where this thread comes from, because you know what, it's encouraging to see people in business cause I'm like minded.
Business owner that I love, love, and have passion to see people succeed part of our core values. And, but I love that, that you guys are taking it beyond just your team members and just the cafes. And so talk to me a little bit, where's the name come from first, and then let's talk a little bit about how and where did we get to this point?
keeping in mind that coffee has grown literally all around the world, as Bob described, 11 central tenant that we feel very strongly about is people are people wherever you go. We all want the same things. We want safety, security, health. We want a better life for our children. and Bob was inspired by that picture that they took. I think it's called Moonrise. It was the first picture of Earth ever taken from space by the astronauts.
And when you look at that picture, you do not see maps, you don't see grids, you don't see borders. You just see this beautiful. Blue marble spinning in space and you look around and we don't see any other beautiful blue marbles spinning in space, at least not in our solar system. We are truly one big island in space and all of us are connected to each other and we have way more in common than we ever have, different between us.
So that was a guiding philosophy in, how we started to approach the work we're doing in coffee. our first experience, we were invited, to go to an orphanage in Zambia that had started a coffee farm because coffee can grow in to make itself more, more sustainable. And they weren't growing very much coffee, about 20, 000 pounds a year, but they were having, they were really having trouble, finding a marketplace for it.
And we went and we saw the power of what they were doing, the way they empowered the people that were actually farming the coffee. And the way that as an economic engine was really changing lives for the people in Andola, but also then the profits from that coffee, we're supporting this orphanage that's doing incredible work. and we were inspired. We were so inspired. We bought.
Everything they hadn't sold yet and set about trying to find other coffee producers in the world that had similar values. and for us, that's the most important thing. We start with, with the values alignment with the producers. there's a lot of great things happening in the world, but there's also a lot of exploitation. There's a lot of extraction.
There's a lot of, poverty that is almost imposed on the population because the conditions in which they're trying to work, particularly in any commodity. So we were looking for, at first it's shifted a little since then we were looking for mid sized farms. And that means somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 acres to 200 acres of coffee and production.
trying to find those mid sized farms that were really, having an impact, to the positive, both for the people that worked on the farm and for the communities that they were in, but also, and just as importantly, that they were farming in a way that takes good care of the earth. there, there are all kinds of ways to farm coffee, and the cheapest way to do it is to cut down all the trees, pollute your water streams, and suck every last thing you can get out of the soil.
That is the cheapest way to grow coffee. It really takes both investment and intentionality to do it differently than that. We were trying to find those farmers. That could, really be a guiding light in their communities and then support them. What we bring to it as the marketplace, because we sell about two point something million pounds of coffee a year. and generally speaking, a concept like Biggby like any other coffee chain would buy their coffee through a roaster, right?
And they're not really know anything about the coffee except that it comes from Nicaragua or, they might even know the name of the farm, but they really don't know. Anything about the people that went into growing that coffee. So we want to start with the people
Um, which I think goes back to again, my original, my, my original episode, a couple of years ago back with, Bob's co founder, Bob educate me as to what coffee purchasing and distribution look like prior to this journey, because I do, there's probably a lot of listeners that are ignorant. They buy coffee every day, whether it's at the grocery store or it's at a cafe.
And they have no idea what the impact to the world is, because I think understanding what that means when they go into any brand and buy coffee that doesn't think this way, what it does, because I think it really will finish out the thought process I have around our conversation so that we can get super passionate and I can let you guys riff a little bit about why it's so important that we all consider these things.
So walk me through the journey, from when you guys started in the mid nineties through to when you guys truly understood. The impact that you were making with the decisions that you made, I'm guessing based on the now having met you guys unintentionally, but now that you guys know it, now you have to change it.
we have to change it. That's right. Yeah. I think most people think coffee comes from a roaster or maybe it comes from the grocery store.
Yeah. It comes from the grocery store. It comes from some place that I just walk up and order it and it's just
and I certainly, thought the same thing. No, we existed in business all the way up to 2018 with never having set foot on a, a coffee farm or understanding how it grows and so on and so forth. And, the way it normally works for a concept like ours is, you pick up the phone, you talk to a broker, and the broker figures it out. And, it's really convenient. there's this curtain, that gets pulled and you don't need to know anything about. It's not important to know anything about that.
But once you pull back the curtain and look in, it's a really complicated process, right? So when we say farming coffee, it takes 365 days to get a one crop of coffee. And that starts off as a cherry on a tree that has to be picked at the perfect red moment and not all the cherries turn red at the same time. So pickers have to go through many times in about a three, four month period to just perk the pick the perfect red cherry.
From there, it's wet milled, and that just means that the fruit is taken off and behind his left two seeds that we call coffee beans. But at this stage, they're relatively small and they're green. And at that point, they have to be dried usually on a cement bed. It could be an oven, and it has to be dried to about 10 percent humidity. And then it can go to what's called dry processing. And all of this is still happening in the producing country.
dry processing is where you sort through the beans and you get rid of the defects and the light ones and the misshapen ones and so on and so forth. And then in the end you have this quality green product that's graded. Using something that's called the Q grade, within the specialty coffee industry. And so it'll be assigned a number in terms of its taste value.
So
to be put in a brulette bags. I think almost everybody knows that coffee is packed in brulette bags, and stored for a moment in the producing country, but eventually ends up on a boat. Comes to the consuming country like United States or Europe or whatever. gets offloaded, put on a warehouse. And that's where a broker is waiting for your phone call.
typically speaking, then it has to end up on a truck, go to a roaster, get roasted, get packaged, and then get delivered either to a retail grocery outlet or a retailer cafe like ours to be sold or produced. It's a very lengthy, cumbersome, process. And When we go farm direct, there's all these bits and pieces in the middle that we have to figure out, instead of using a broker to do that. but in the figuring out, you figure out that there's people that are unnecessary in that process.
And then there's some people that are nefarious in that process. In other words, they might take advantage of the producer. And our ultimate goal is to make sure that producer is economically viable to the degree. that they can support their family and send their kids to school, and contribute to their, community.
I love that. Michelle, you talked a little bit about, your, you guys have passion and core values fit, talk to me a little bit about what that means for those that might not understand when you guys are picking providers for this, these products that, that, I've just talked about is. what does that mean? how do you guys figure those things out? Cause having been overseas, I've been, we talked a little bit pre show. I have a son who's from Africa. I've been to some of these places.
I've been to parts of Mexico and parts of central America. I've seen the things you're talking about, Bob. I've seen the nefarious people, going through the adoption process. There were people that I knew were on the take and I was watching, you watch it and you're like, Oh, that guy is probably on the take. and it's tough to watch because you're, dealing with human lives and I love that you guys are so passionate about creating a better life for them because they have all the tools.
They just need somebody to support them and cut all the crap out. That's been holding them down for so long. But what does that mean to have a core values fit, Michelle?
the way we find these producers is changing over time. We've been doing this for five years now, but, one thing that doesn't change is it always starts with a conversation. And sometimes that's complicated because you need translators and,
You need to make sure they're not on the take, too, because sometimes they might tell you what you want to hear, because they've got some ulterior motive, which is hard. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I think it's true.
It's really true. And, we're pretty fortunate, when the other language is Spanish, we have, as we've built our team, we have some very close partners in Central and South America that can really help us vet out other partners when we're in these conversations, but it starts with zoom calls and emails and we check out their website and they check out our website. We have lots and lots of discussion.
And if we really think there's something there, It's not, it doesn't start to become real until we go. a key component of the way we do this work is something we call boots on the ground. we might visit a farm, and we stay on the farm and we stay for four or five days.
We might visit that farm five times before we actually, before we were able to come around to being able To craft a partnership and in that, when you're walking those fields with the farmers and you're sharing every meal, there, there's a lot that unfolds, that you don't get from the conversations, although the conversations are really important first step. it's really been a journey for us.
So we learned something from every farm we visit and we visit many, and we currently only have four partnerships. nos in our world than there are yeses. but the truth of what's happening on the farm unfolds on the farm.
and I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw this question at you both, which is, oftentimes, and again, having lived some ministry worlds around the globe, there are times that people will tell you what you want to hear. Cause they realize that, that, and the other pieces is oftentimes when you're going in with a crazy idea, and I'm not saying it's crazy in a bad way, but it's a very different business model. Oftentimes people are skeptical and, or they don't believe.
Talk to me a little bit about how you guys have overcome that because that's hard. That's hard to change a culture altogether. And you guys are already, you guys already have this huge BHAG about changing work culture in the United States, which I am. I am here cheering you guys on. I'm so grateful that there are people like you guys in the world that are doing that.
And you guys are not only taking it to the U S into the 400 cafes you guys have now, but now you guys are taking it to farms and in that, that those parts of the world where most people won't do that. So Bob, why don't you, why don't you share a little bit about what that looks like? Cause I think it's amazing.
Yeah, I think, what we say is, we're looking for people that are treating people right, the planet right, and investing in their community. But one of the core areas where we have discovery on visiting a farm is on the planet component. So by that, we're looking for somebody that's not using herbicides and pesticides.
And so when Michelle says we walk the fields, you can tell immediately, we can anyway, whether there's, they're using herbicides or whether they're slashing and if they're using pesticides, we don't see butterflies, we don't see grasshoppers, we don't see frogs and so on and so forth. So there, there's some real. evidence, that's right there. But also, we really look for regenerative farming.
And so what that means is there's no deforestation or there's an effort to reforest that, the byproduct, this pulp that comes off the coffee can pollute the water, that there's a, that there's a composting program in place and in effect and so on. And you can tell on the planet side end. whether people are taking care of the land properly, right? So now that really informs already then both the people side and the community side, right? So if
you can't hide that very Anybody that's ever run a restaurant knows the craziness that happens during a meal period in a rush. One of our partners, Restaurant Technologies, Total Oil Management Solution, is an end to end oil management system that delivers, filters, monitors, and recycles your cooking oil, taking one of the jobs that none of your team wants to do and takes it off your hands, allowing your team members to focus on their guests.
Control the kitchen chaos with Uh, restaurant technologies and make your kitchen safer while maximizing your staff's time. The solution can be provided at no upfront costs. If you want to learn more, please check out rti inc. com or call 888 796 4997.
you can't,
just go, you can't just go throw a bunch of grasshoppers out and go, Hey, no. They're all here. They don't have
in the offices of this farm and they're certified this and that and the other, and, Starbucks care and all of it. And Michelle says, great. Yeah, let's go to the fields and, they hitch a little bit, but they throw us in the car and they take us to the fields. and, there was one thing there isn't like when you were manual, manually managing. the plant material. There were always people with machetes around. That's how you, that's how you do it. There were no people with machetes, right?
the dirt, there was no plant material besides the coffee. And, Michelle leaned over and asked the guys that are using. Are you using herbicides here? And he hemmed and hawed and so on and so forth. and she leaned in a little bit more and he looked down a little bit and sheepishly said, yeah, we have to, labor's been so high and so on and so forth. And she's what are you using? And, he stated, I'm using gypsophilic.
And of course, gypsophilate is Roundup and Roundup, is a known, carcinogen, right? So we can't have that. So here, this place actually had the certifications that would lead you to believe that no gypsophilate is being used. But, we have the experience and knowledge after having been on so many farms. and been with so many people that are doing it right that we can identify this stuff pretty quickly.
But I'll tell you that people that are taking care of the planet right are also generally and of course we investigate this as well, but are generally treating people right too. So sometimes we're looking at housing conditions like we've seen housing conditions for workers that you wouldn't put your dog in.
Yep.
and then we also look for this part about investing in the community, and that manifests itself in so many different ways. It might be about providing potable water to the balance of the community. It might be providing schooling for Children that are working on the farm. It might be building a bridge. We don't know when we don't have any expectation. one thing I want to make clear, I don't get too far off track. We're not looking to convert anybody to these things.
We're looking simply for people that we already have this value alignment with, right? And so it can become pretty obvious or not pretty quickly with a boots on the ground visit.
well, and I think even in that community aspect, you walk around the community and you can hear, you can see, you can feel what people's impression of that farm is or what that. Organization is and people will say, those guys are amazing. They helped me with this medical thing when my, XYZ was, or you get the opposite where they're like, yeah, people stay away from there because it's run by some, this, that, or the other.
I'm going to start to wrap up, but Michelle, what does the world look like? As you guys continue to engage in this, I know it's not, I don't believe it's a hundred percent of the coffee you guys sell at this point, but I believe you guys have a vision that you guys are going to get to that place. Talk to me a little bit about what does the future look like and how has the journey been, the last five years and how long do you guys think it's going to take to get there?
our goal is to be 100 percent farm direct by 2028. And, that's a little misleading in a way because Big B continues to Grow at this very, robust rate. So the amount of coffee we need to find is it's more every year. So we're chasing pretty hard, but I believe that we'll get there. and when we get there, we'll probably be selling in the neighborhood of four to 5 million pounds.
Big B will be a thousand unit chain and we will have a bigger soap box to be able to stand up and talk to the industry broadly about. About what's not working for coffee because we all know it, and we'll be able to, point out some of the shortfalls of the way many others in the industry do it because, you can do it in such a way that you maximize your own profits. And it's going, but it always comes at somebody's expense.
And in this case, it's the people that are behind that black curtain and it's the planet. And, we don't believe that, that it's sustainable. if coffee's going to continue to grow and thrive as an industry, we're going to have to do a better job of taking care of the people that produce it. And we're definitely gonna have to do a better job of taking care of the planet. as we have become, as more people know what we're up to, we're finding producers, looking for us.
Like they, we, we think of them as a needle in a haystack, but they definitely think of us as a needle in a haystack.
that.
And we have, we're finding more and more, like minded souls out there in the industry. we're trying to connect. Connect us all together so that we're stronger together so that we can make this change happen because if we don't You won't notice because you don't drink coffee, but I will
Yeah.
Yeah, I will miss my daily cup and it's it's gonna it's changing out there And if we don't do something we may lose it as an industry all together. I
One other thought I had just before we, before we wrap up and we ask our audience how they can support you guys in this journey is what, what things now that you guys are on this five year journey. Did you guys come across that you didn't expect when you guys were visiting these farms? You guys talk about the hundreds of farms. You guys have had to go with things outside of the fact that there are people and they are fantastic out there.
And when you sit arm and arm across the table with people, it is amazing how cultures can get so much people that would never have known each other can sit down and have a meal and can just change the world together. So I love that. And you guys alluded to that earlier, but what are the things have you guys learned as humans, as people?
Thought I understood what poverty was and then I went to Sierra Leone in the far upcountry and, it shook me profoundly to my core that there are still in this age of the world that there are people, who have so few access to resources that, they are, they're living lives. I can't, I couldn't imagine before I spent time there walking those fields. the depth of the challenge is so great for me.
And how about you, Bob?
Yeah, for me, I think it's something that I already knew, but that as human beings, although we like to categorize ourselves into these teams and countries and ethnicities and so on and so forth, but when you sit down and break bread with people, we're 99. 9999 percent the same. And we all want the same things, right? And it's been super rewarding, to humanize our own humanity, and to see, touch and feel that. I think there's nothing more rewarding than that.
And, one of the things that we do, for owner operators and our franchisees and others, that, that. that enter our world is we bring them on these farm direct journeys, right? So we won't bring them to an initial visit, but we, often bring them to our followup visits once the relationship is established. And the number of times that we've heard these words, quote unquote, this has been a life changing experience for me is infinite.
And, we talk about this idea that we're just this one big island in space and that things are interdependent, but when you go see, touch and feel it, you come to realize that profoundly.
thank you. I think that's a fantastic place to, to end, end my questioning other than how do people support the mission? How do people get involved? How do people help? How do people, again, there, there's lots of people out there, there's lots of daily coffee drinkers, people have choices every day with how they spend their time and their energy. So how do people engage with your guys brand to learn more and engage there?
So Bob, why don't you, why don't you take it and then you can pass it to Michelle.
right now we have a blend called Bigby Best Blend. that is 100 percent farm direct. And so every producer in there is a farm direct relationship. And so just simply by, by buying that coffee and making that a drip coffee choice, definitely, supports us. But we also, we keep a blog, we are storytellers, in the end, and we started the blog, in 2018 and it. it demonstrates the journey that we've been through. It shares a lot of the ideology, but you can find that at, www. onebigislandandspace.
com with two G's. we also have a YouTube channel that we keep with the same moniker and we have a Facebook channel with the same moniker as well, but, just sharing, if you heard these words and they inspire you, if you could just share with other people, about what we're up to at one big on in space, that would be just most appreciated.
One of our big goals is to put a name, a face and a place on every cup of coffee we serve, because we think that actually the people who have the power to change. The world are the consumers, and once the consumer understands the connection to the people behind the coffee that they're growing, we think that they will be empowered to make stronger choices to support the work we're all doing.
And you definitely get to meet many of the people, you get to see most of the places on our blog, and I highly recommend you go there.
thank you guys so much for not only, the cafes, but just even what you guys are trying to do to change the world. It's inspiring. And while I'm not a huge coffee drinker, I may go, that may be my coffee choice to, to send gifts out now going forward. Cause again, as you guys said, once you know that it exists and it's out there.
You can no longer claim ignorance that you had no idea that this cup of coffee might've impacted some child's life somewhere around the world that you may never meet or likely will never meet. But, the opposite could also be true should you choose a different path. thank you guys for, taking time to share a bit of the story to our listeners, guys. We know that you guys have got lots of choices. So thank you guys for spending time with us.
If you haven't already done so please subscribe to the newsletter. and, you'll get a copy of all of the shows for that month to Bob and Michelle, thank you guys so much. And to our listeners, make it a great day.
Thanks for listening to the Restaurant Technology Guys podcast. Visit www. RestaurantTechnologyGuys. com for tips, industry insights, and more to help you run your restaurant better.