sustainability has always been at the forefront for me so I was selling the CO2 product. I was pushing that over the HFCs. Just educating why it's a better option. That's sort of really important to me, but also safeguarding for my children. I want it to be a beautiful environment for them and that's a really cool thing to be a part of. There's, there's sort of a measurable impact when you work for an organization like this and you can see the environmental impact that you are having in your job.
sustainability has always been at the forefront for me so I was selling the CO2 product. I was pushing that over the HFCs. Just educating why it's a better option. That's sort of really important to me, but also safeguarding for my children. I want it to be a beautiful environment for them and that's a really cool thing to be a part of. There's, there's sort of a measurable impact when you work for an organization like this and you can see the environmental impact that you are having in your job.
I want to take a minute to talk about what refrigeration mentor training is all about. We are all about helping contractors increase profit. We help end users reduce bottom line costs and really helping technicians make more money. And our mission is to empower those contractors and technicians by equipping them with the, really the skills that they need and the knowledge that they need for success.
And what we do is we help contractors. By building customized training packages that work for their technicians, that work for their busy schedule to advance their skills in gauging them in continuing education and testing them. All these programs that we really do is really by the hands on approach, getting them to go out there and do.
The field work. So they get tangible results and we are committed to getting you the results you're looking for. All our programs are online drip model. So I can meet with technicians or the refrigeration professional. I can coach them. I can mentor them and our team of professional really want to take your business, to the next level.
The field work. So they get tangible results and we are committed to getting you the results you're looking for. All our programs are online drip model. So I can meet with technicians or the refrigeration professional. I can coach them. I can mentor them and our team of professional really want to take your business, to the next level.
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Today I have Megan. We've met, I think about a month ago, maybe six weeks ago for the first time we had a zoom call together. And I'm like, and that's super cool. And the things you're doing with cool safe, and we'll dive into a lot of that stuff. So Megan, welcome to the refrigeration mentor podcast. How you doing?
Thank you. Really good. Thanks. Thanks for having me here.
I don't know. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed the conversation we had in the month. I don't know. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed the conversation we had in the month.
Yeah. Like it was about six weeks ago on things you've done and the things that you're working towards. Let's dive a little bit about what you've, you've done. You were a refrigeration technician in the field for many, many years on the tools, crushing it out there. Let's talk about that journey. How did you even get into refrigeration?
Like many for G's through family, my grandfather was a refrigeration engineer. My uncles are both for G's. So I started my apprenticeship with a company that my uncles own and that my grandfather had retired from as well. So got in there, we sort of worked on anything from domestic fridges, heat pumps to cars, trucks, buses, and ammonia, meatworks, fonteras, so milk, big milk processing plants yeah, kind of anything, a huge, huge variety.
Yeah. So that was kind of how I got into it. Then I moved in, I decided, Let's try your hand at air conditioning. I only did that for about a year, moved away, did that for about a year, decided refrigeration was where I wanted to be. So moved again, cities moved up to Auckland, which is where I've been since and got into supermarket refrigeration.
Yeah. So that was kind of how I got into it. Then I moved in, I decided, Let's try your hand at air conditioning. I only did that for about a year, moved away, did that for about a year, decided refrigeration was where I wanted to be. So moved again, cities moved up to Auckland, which is where I've been since and got into supermarket refrigeration. This is kind of where I found my niche. That's where I wanted to be. I really enjoyed it.
Yeah.
Dabbled in CO2 a little bit at the company I was with at the time. Yeah. And then moved, got presented this fantastic opportunity with a locally owned business in Auckland to specialise in CO2. So I went over there and they were fantastic.
Obviously, being a female in the trade, you don't probably get as many opportunities. As your peers might but this company was totally different. They were like, wow. Yes. Fantastic. Go for it. So I got the opportunity to commission supermarkets and they trained me up in it. And I really, I loved it. Loved it a lot. I love that.
I love that. So you started out family business, you know, in people in the business. And this is what I talked a lot for me. It wasn't like, I just, it just, I luckily tripped and hit my head. And all of a sudden refrigeration appeared in front of me. Right. Cause I'm a first gen didn't know anything about it.
I love that. So you started out family business, you know, in people in the business. And this is what I talked a lot for me. It wasn't like, I just, it just, I luckily tripped and hit my head. And all of a sudden refrigeration appeared in front of me. Right. Cause I'm a first gen didn't know anything about it.
And but that, I think that that was where there are a lot of struggles over the years for me. Cause I didn't have that experience where you got generational knowledge. To really help you, I want to talk about you jumped into air condition for a little bit, and then you came back into refrigeration.
What, what was the up with as an experience? Cause I've done the same thing. Honestly, I went and I've done each bag and air condition. I'm like, I'm back in the supermarket work. What, what, what was that transition? Were you traveling? Were you living in another country? What were you doing in just different city?
No, no, just a different city. So it was about a three and a half hour drive from home. I didn't really have an issue with the fact that I was now away from home. I, I kind of wanted to be I just didn't so much enjoy the work, but I think there's this thing with fridges and air con techs is that if you do refrigeration to start, you're probably always going to do it.
No, no, just a different city. So it was about a three and a half hour drive from home. I didn't really have an issue with the fact that I was now away from home. I, I kind of wanted to be I just didn't so much enjoy the work, but I think there's this thing with fridges and air con techs is that if you do refrigeration to start, you're probably always going to do it. You always, it's kind of one or the other. It's never really. You never really that passionate about and so that came through for me that you should probably stay with refrigeration. And if you ask an air contact, they'd probably say, well, you just don't understand it. And that's probably true as well.
No, I talked with a lot of both, like a lot of HVAC and air conditioning technicians and refrigeration technicians some want to make the transition. That's why a lot of people come into the trainings. They're like, Hey, I've been doing a, like HVAC or air conditioning for eight to 10 years. But I want to challenge myself a bit more and you know, so, and then they come into the programs and they're like, I didn't know I would enjoy it this much.
It's hard. There's a lot of work to it. You know what I mean? I feel like it's more work than I was doing in HVAC, but they feel like it's really rewarding.
It is. Yeah.
Okay. So you got back into supermarket work, you start working on CO2 and then you start doing startups and stuff like that, and that's super cool. Like I, I talked to a lot of technicians in our training programs. Like you got to get to do to start out. Cause that's where you really learn refrigeration systems. Like I, I talked to a lot of technicians in our training programs. Like you got to get to do to start out. Cause that's where you really learn refrigeration systems.
You get to go through it properly, understand how each little component works when you're a service tech. Yeah. You go, it's reactive work. So you're going and you're, you know, something's broken down.
So you've got to go and figure out what's happened. And you're only really focusing on that component and why that's failed. But when you're commissioning and doing the startup, you've got to make sure everything's perfect before you start it up. So you're doing a lot of testing and that's where the learning happens is, why does it have to work like this? And that was where I was like, wow, I love CO2.
Yeah, yeah. Because there's so much to it, right? There's a lot to it. And it's not like it's You just started up and walk away, there's fine tuning afterwards. Yeah, and I think I, I was just actually on a podcast with Dan Foss just before this one and we were talking about it, is that understanding the sequence of operation of CO2 is di a bit different than an HFC system because there's just so many more sequence of operations.
What was that transition for you going from, you know, working on a standard rack to a CO2 rack? Because it, it, it must've been intimidating. At first What was that transition for you going from, you know, working on a standard rack to a CO2 rack? Because it, it, it must've been intimidating. At first
it was, it was I walked into a plant room one day, my boss would say, Megan, can you go and have a look at this? You know, it's, it's only a minor issue. I walked in and the plant rooms did quiet. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And it was the first CO2 record ever touched.
Really?
It was like, I touched them. I'd worked on them briefly, but not. Anything, you know, delving into it and I was like, Oh my gosh, what do I do panic? You know, panic sets in, but then it's okay. Clear your head. Where do you start? You go through and we ended up having to stay all night manually keeping the rack running, but it is what it is.
That's part of the trade. Yeah. And then it was from there. It was just a, a deep dive into it. Here you go. Here's a supermarket with two brand new racks to commission. Okay. Okay. Great. So they gave me a lot of opportunity to learn and I did, and it was great.
It sounds like you embrace it, which is really good. It sounds like you embrace it, which is really good. And this is what I talk about to all the technicians that come in is like, these are the things like you want to learn about because refrigeration is sometimes you're just babysitting. You're sitting there to make sure that that product is safe and the right temperature because sometimes it could be.
10, 000 in product. It could be a hundred thousand. It could be a million dollars in product, depending on how big the systems are. Cause you work on some big systems in your day. And, and I talk about it. Well, sometimes that's our job that we have to sit there all night and just. Turn a valve a little bit, wait, watch it, adjust it until you get that part, you know can it be boring sometimes for sure, but there's excitement in there after you get over the fear of man, the rack is down.
What do I do? I know I've been there. And so you start learning a lot about CO2 and started to gain your knowledge. And you transition from an engineer and get out of the field. What was that process like? Because that's a lot of technicians that talk to me. They're like, well, I don't know what to do next.
You know, I've been doing, I've been a technician or an engineer for 10 or 15 years, and I'm like good at what I do. But I know I can't do this forever, you know, cause it's not an easy job, right? Like we climb in ladders late nights you know, heavy compressors, things like that. But as we start to get older, it's harder on our knees, on our backs, on our heads.
You know, I've been doing, I've been a technician or an engineer for 10 or 15 years, and I'm like good at what I do. But I know I can't do this forever, you know, cause it's not an easy job, right? Like we climb in ladders late nights you know, heavy compressors, things like that. But as we start to get older, it's harder on our knees, on our backs, on our heads.
It is. So what's that next step? And it sounds like you've taken that next step. What are, what was the process for you to start to move forward?
So. At the time I've been off the tools for five years now. So at the time I had enrolled in university to do a bachelor of business. When you go straight from high school into a trade that's all, you know, and I sort of wanted something else.
So if I wanted to get off the tools at a later point, then I'd have another qualification. So that's kind of where I started. But I was, I, I actually didn't plan on getting off the tools when I did, it just kind of happened. I was offered a job at a wholesaler in Auckland as a sales engineer. And I thought, well, probably with the hours that I'm currently doing, it's not going to be conducive to doing a full time degree at home.
So if I wanted to get off the tools at a later point, then I'd have another qualification. So that's kind of where I started. But I was, I, I actually didn't plan on getting off the tools when I did, it just kind of happened. I was offered a job at a wholesaler in Auckland as a sales engineer. And I thought, well, probably with the hours that I'm currently doing, it's not going to be conducive to doing a full time degree at home.
So it worked out really well. I went into Patton as their sales engineer and transitioned to branch manager within the year. So I was running the Auckland branch of that operation. Yeah, and stayed there until last year,
awesome. So, but that's, that's a big transition and the funny thing is that like, I didn't think I was going to get off the tools when I did either, but it, it happened, you know but I think we, I've been preparing the whole time, but I didn't know it.
You know what I mean? Cause I was always taking these extra trainings here and they're trying to better myself. And I actually went to university first and took the business, did the business and then took the trade where you did the trade and then you took the business. Cause this is what we tell engineers and technicians all the time.
You got to keep learning. You know, and it's not only refrigeration, cause we can, you can learn and be the best technical person, but it's the people skills, the understanding of this acumen, understanding finance numbers and things like that, which we're good at as technicians. A lot of people should tell me we're not, Oh, I'm not good at math.
You got to keep learning. You know, and it's not only refrigeration, cause we can, you can learn and be the best technical person, but it's the people skills, the understanding of this acumen, understanding finance numbers and things like that, which we're good at as technicians. A lot of people should tell me we're not, Oh, I'm not good at math.
I'm not good at numbers. That is our job full time. Lengths of pipe, electrical, you know, sizing things, pressures, temperatures, we're in numbers, you know? So, and but we got to prepare ourselves. So it sounds like you were preparing yourself and you worked at a wholesaler, which is great. Cause then you get the.
Meet the technicians, teach them, train them and share your knowledge with them, which is super cool. But then you, then you made another step and then you move forward to coolsafe. Let's, let's talk a little bit about that. Cause I, you know, we talked a few weeks ago about it, but it's still new to me. And I'd love to learn a little bit more of Your goals and what you're working towards, because this is another opportunity that you, you started on the tools, but it's the next step and the next step is that's out there for us.
Yep. So I came on to call safe about four and a half months ago as the general manager operations. Yeah. So it's still very fresh to the role. I'm the first general manager operations. So I'm tasked with obviously leading the team, building the team. We're an ever growing organization. I came in.
Yep. So I came on to call safe about four and a half months ago as the general manager operations. Yeah. So it's still very fresh to the role. I'm the first general manager operations. So I'm tasked with obviously leading the team, building the team. We're an ever growing organization. I came in.
To I guess a startup business, even though the trust has been operating for 30, over 30 years, the way that we've modeled it now is quite new to industry. So it's about getting people on board and removing barriers getting, getting people to do the right thing for the industry. So we're an environmental trust.
And we are tasked with collection and destruction of synthetic F gases. So what that means is we, the gas from customers, so the customers obviously take the gas out of the systems, they give it to us, we consolidate it and destroy it. We're building, not to call safe, but the trust is building a destruction facility in New Zealand. So it's the first destruction facility that's underway now. We'll be running mid, mid. June,
hopefully, should be. So what was the process before? Because we have always had to get rid of refrigerants, right? Like R12s and 502s and 22, you know, and so on and so forth. What was the process before then? hopefully, should be. So what was the process before? Because we have always had to get rid of refrigerants, right? Like R12s and 502s and 22, you know, and so on and so forth. What was the process before then? Were you shipping it off to another country?
Yeah, it was going off to Australia to be destroyed. So we'd ship off the big vessels to Aussie which created some shortages with vessels in New Zealand. And so they've come up with a better way of doing it and it's obviously going to have massive environmental impacts positive impacts.
Yeah. Yeah. So we've also been. Recently accredited by the government as a regulated product stewardship scheme for the priority product being synthetic gases. That means that we're going to be tasked with managing, monitoring the mass bank of refrigerants within New Zealand. So that's going to be tracking imports and destruction and exports, that sort of thing.
We'll also be tasked with training the industry. Obviously a huge part of what we do is trying to upskill the industry, making sure that we're all on the same path trying to, yeah, just get people on the track, doing the right thing. And lots of people are already doing the right thing, which is fantastic.
We'll also be tasked with training the industry. Obviously a huge part of what we do is trying to upskill the industry, making sure that we're all on the same path trying to, yeah, just get people on the track, doing the right thing. And lots of people are already doing the right thing, which is fantastic.
But we all know that there's some, some. People who don't do the right thing always and you know, it's just about educating why we need to be doing this and what the actual environmental outcome is from this.
Yeah, I think that I agree definitely with that because most, most of the technician I work with and deal with. They are trying to do their best. You know, there are slip ups that happen, you know, and mistakes happen, but they're like, I am trying to recover the best I can purge properly. Things like that. They're, they're trying their best. But then there's always these people that don't know they've never been.
I've just done it this way. The guy that showed me before, they just cut the pipes and it's, I don't know, that's normal. Why would it be? Why is there an issue with that? Because they don't, might not know the science behind it. You know what I mean? Or it's another country does it that way. So why don't we just do it that way?
That doesn't, you know what I mean? It affects the whole planet. So, and this is a lot of training that, cause I didn't know the difference. I was taught by people, okay, just, it's a hundred pounds to, you know, cut it. It's against the law. I didn't, didn't know at the time, you know what I mean? But that's against the law where I've learned that it's.
That doesn't, you know what I mean? It affects the whole planet. So, and this is a lot of training that, cause I didn't know the difference. I was taught by people, okay, just, it's a hundred pounds to, you know, cut it. It's against the law. I didn't, didn't know at the time, you know what I mean? But that's against the law where I've learned that it's.
No, you recover properly. Even a few pounds, it's hard work going down to get to your recovery unit and you got to walk, you know, 10 minutes to get it and then 10, 15 minutes and you got another job and you got seven people calling you. It's hard, but you do have to do the right thing because there is legal obligation, but not even the legal obligation is just for the environment. That's the big thing.
Absolutely. And that even comes down to the heel of a disposable cylinder. I'm not sure whether you still use disposables in Canada, but, and here we've got. Lots of disposables, all our gas comes in those and quite often you'll see somebody just open the valve and release the last little bit. It's only going to come down to suction pressure when you're sucking it into a system. Yes.
Yeah. So there's still that tiny little bit and just educating people to understand that, hey, there is actually an impact from your actions and, and, and this is what it is. Yeah. And this is what we're trying to reduce. Yeah. So there's still that tiny little bit and just educating people to understand that, hey, there is actually an impact from your actions and, and, and this is what it is. Yeah. And this is what we're trying to reduce.
Yeah, no, exactly. What, why is this? Cause you, you were in a in the field, you're at a wholesale. Now you're, you're a general manager of CoolSafe. Why is this important to you?
So I talked a bit about the CO2. I'm obviously quite focused on sustainability, always have been. I've, Yeah, I kind of imagined myself going into an environmental role, not specifically one with CoolSafe.
I didn't really understand what CoolSafe did didn't sort of know even about this avenue of the industry. But sustainability has always been at the forefront for me and, you know, at Patton. I still maintained that. So I was selling the CO2 product. I was pushing that over the HFCs. You know, just educating why it's a better option.
That's, yeah, that's sort of really important to me, but also safeguarding for my children. I've got, you know, Kids and I want it to be a beautiful environment for them later on and their children and their children to come. So it's obviously, yeah, the cool, the thing about cool safe is it's not profit driven as well, which means that we give back to the industry.
That's, yeah, that's sort of really important to me, but also safeguarding for my children. I've got, you know, Kids and I want it to be a beautiful environment for them later on and their children and their children to come. So it's obviously, yeah, the cool, the thing about cool safe is it's not profit driven as well, which means that we give back to the industry.
So all the money that we make, it goes back into industry and that's through incentives. Trying to incentivize people to do the right thing and just. You know, through training and events and, and bringing people to New Zealand and yeah, and that's a really cool thing to be a part of. There's, there's sort of a measurable impact when you work for an organization like this and you can see the environmental impact that you are having in your job.
So that's awesome. That's a really good sense of achievement, I guess, for me as well.
Yeah, no, and that's awesome because once again, it's about educating more people on it because a lot of people, like I talked to, like they, they, they know the basics, but they don't know the, the deep Impact, you know, cause you're as a technician for me, it's like, you're, you're the day to day you're putting out the fires and you get more calls and this.
Yeah, no, and that's awesome because once again, it's about educating more people on it because a lot of people, like I talked to, like they, they, they know the basics, but they don't know the, the deep Impact, you know, cause you're as a technician for me, it's like, you're, you're the day to day you're putting out the fires and you get more calls and this.
And so it's like, well, that's just the way I've always done it, you know? And then I have to do it this way now. And it's change and it's hard. Once again I was even doing a CO2 CO2 was a supermarket training last night where we were talking about if you get non condensibles in the system, well, how do you check, you know?
They, some people all pump it down. They'll run the condenser fan. You check it from the top point, you know what I mean? Temperature pressure test. And then I'm like, what's your next step? Well, then they're like purge. I'm like purge. Or what do you mean by that? Well, we just got to let as much out of the system until we get all the air out.
I'm like, yeah, that's the way it was done in the way I was taught, but that's not the way we should be doing it going forward. And they're like, well, what do you mean? Well, this is where you get that recovery cylinder out and you get the recovery unit out and you pull from the top point and it's harder and it takes longer.
It would be way easier just to let it rip, but it's not good for the environment. And they were looking at me like, are you serious? I'm like, yeah. They're like, okay, I'm going to try it now at least. You know what I mean? But, but that's the little steps that we need to make because we're used to doing it one way.
It would be way easier just to let it rip, but it's not good for the environment. And they were looking at me like, are you serious? I'm like, yeah. They're like, okay, I'm going to try it now at least. You know what I mean? But, but that's the little steps that we need to make because we're used to doing it one way.
And even with CO2, in my CO2 trainings too, they're like, well, what I like about CO2 is that I can just blow it all out. I say that's. No, you don't want to blow it all. You want to keep it in the system, all of it. You know what I mean? Cause CO2 is still bad for the environment. It's just not as bad as the other stuff.
Because there's other stuff in it, like POE oil. I was having a conversation with one of the technicians in my program. He's like, Trevor, you know where the PRVs are for the CO2. We had some pop offs. There's no trees there and all the grass is dead in that area. I never thought about it until that point.
It's not the CO2 that's the issue. It's the oil that's flying out onto the, to the ground. Holy smokes. There's way more to it than just letting it out. It's okay to let it out. So this is why I train all the time. You keep it as much in the system as possible. You can use the recovery cylinder on the low side of CO2 200 PSI and move it into another part of the system, you know, but it's just that, that education portion of it.
It's not the CO2 that's the issue. It's the oil that's flying out onto the, to the ground. Holy smokes. There's way more to it than just letting it out. It's okay to let it out. So this is why I train all the time. You keep it as much in the system as possible. You can use the recovery cylinder on the low side of CO2 200 PSI and move it into another part of the system, you know, but it's just that, that education portion of it.
Definitely, which is what we're really trying to tackle and there's lots of different ways to go about that, but really the regulations are going to be key to that for New Zealand. It's going to give us a proper framework Coolsapes commissioned the senior leadership forum, which are tasked with designing this framework for the industry, which will give micro credentials. So it'll be separate qualification essentially for CO2 and ammonia HFCs.
So right now, is there any refrigerant regulations in New Zealand, like, or before, so like, could you just use whatever refrigerant, any HFC, R 22? Like what is, what has been the rules so far up, like or there's not really any, anything import can be used. How does that work there at this point?
I guess it's kind of dictated by the suppliers a launch and that what they're importing dictates what gas you can run it on. I guess it's kind of dictated by the suppliers a launch and that what they're importing dictates what gas you can run it on.
Okay. Megan: There's a lot of development obviously in around the CO2 area. Most suppliers are pushing that now, but the flammable side still a work in progress. R32 is quite prominent here mostly in domestic heat pumps, but R290 a little bit, not so much. There's no regulations or really even guidelines around what you can and can't do. Oh, so you've got to just use 410 if I wanted to and just import 410 and use that or 404? Is there no regulation at this point in that?
So New Zealand does have the ETS scheme. Okay. Which is the emissions trading scheme. So we, it's a carbon tax on import, basically. So the government are trying to reduce carbon emissions. So in doing that, they are putting the price up on the tax. So it makes it, you, you don't want to use the high, GWPs, but not so much because they're high GWPs because I think a lot of people still don't have a massive amount of knowledge around the impact of that where they know it's high GWP, so they know it's bad for the environment, but what is the actual impact?
So New Zealand does have the ETS scheme. Okay. Which is the emissions trading scheme. So we, it's a carbon tax on import, basically. So the government are trying to reduce carbon emissions. So in doing that, they are putting the price up on the tax. So it makes it, you, you don't want to use the high, GWPs, but not so much because they're high GWPs because I think a lot of people still don't have a massive amount of knowledge around the impact of that where they know it's high GWP, so they know it's bad for the environment, but what is the actual impact?
It's more the high price. So Ajago 404a in New Zealand is 8, 000 trade price,
8, 000. Okay. And so what's a jug when you say a jug, because there's different around or like, how many kilograms would that be? 10. 9, 10. 9. And so like 22 pounds or 23 pounds for all for 8, 000.
Yeah. And, and most of that price is tax. So that's how the New Zealand government's trying to reduce. So if the, if the suppliers want to import those gases, their quotas less for higher lower GWP refrigerants. Yeah. So
so it's a smart move to try to move your customers away. Cause your customers. Can't pay like the customers can't pay for that. And and so, okay, so that's a one strategy that they're, they're working on, which is good. So what, what else is happening in there to regulation? So there's still at this point, there's still no regulations there on it or they're implementing regulations
And and so, okay, so that's a one strategy that they're, they're working on, which is good. So what, what else is happening in there to regulation? So there's still at this point, there's still no regulations there on it or they're implementing regulations
at the moment regulations are being drafted. So that's regarding cool safe being the product stewardship scheme.
Okay.
So that's, that's where we'll kick in once the regulations are presented, we'll kick in and start monitoring that mass bank of refrigerant in the country. Part of that's leak mitigation. So it's sort of tracking the refrigerants. Are there any major areas where, you know, this person's buying a lot of refrigerant and they're not destroying any. You know, is that all leaking out to atmosphere? What's happening? That sort of thing, but we won't be the regulator. Cool. Safe won't be the regulator.
Yeah. That's helping to draft up some these proposals.
To go through some sort of agreement or, or through some sort of regulation process to see if you can make it happen. Here in Canada back, I think in the nineties, we came up with where you have to write down if you lose so many, I think it was, I can't remember if it was 22 pounds or 10 kilos or of a hundred pounds, but we've, I remember 15, 20 years ago when we had a big leak, I had to fill out all the MTO reports and how much we use and how much we added back to the system.
To go through some sort of agreement or, or through some sort of regulation process to see if you can make it happen. Here in Canada back, I think in the nineties, we came up with where you have to write down if you lose so many, I think it was, I can't remember if it was 22 pounds or 10 kilos or of a hundred pounds, but we've, I remember 15, 20 years ago when we had a big leak, I had to fill out all the MTO reports and how much we use and how much we added back to the system.
And I'm not saying people are doing. Doing that today. Then lots of people are not, but that's been implemented since the nineties and I talked to people about this today and they're like, I didn't even know that. You know what I mean? So I just bet education that it's not, I just used to doing my day to day.
I might've heard of that before, but it's not something in my realm that I think about all the time. I'm just doing my job. So it's cool that they're starting to. Implement some of this stuff. I know it's going to be hard. You know what I mean? And it's going to be hard in the technicians is different. But I think the biggest thing is talking about the benefits.
Think so. Yeah, and I think we will. I think there'll be a bit of resistance to start out with. But once people can see the impact and why, why it needs to happen, then people will jump on board pretty quick. I think everybody in the industry wants to do the right thing. So yeah. Which should be fairly straightforward.
Think so. Yeah, and I think we will. I think there'll be a bit of resistance to start out with. But once people can see the impact and why, why it needs to happen, then people will jump on board pretty quick. I think everybody in the industry wants to do the right thing. So yeah. Which should be fairly straightforward.
Yeah, but it's hard because there's so much talk from all different sides and all different people. Because here in North America, so Canada's regulation hasn't really changed. I know they were meeting a month ago or a few weeks ago. And our can to talk a little bit more about the the regulations, but in the U S they just came up with the aims act, which is a huge, and there's some snap rules, but it's a huge impact on the refrigeration industry on the GWP level, that global warming.
Potentially. And then depending on how many pounds or how many kilograms are in each system will dictate on what you can or cannot put into a system. So this is regulation is starting through regulatory bodies, but this has already been in motion by the big retailers here, you know, so they've been already like, well, we were retrofits every five years.
Potentially. And then depending on how many pounds or how many kilograms are in each system will dictate on what you can or cannot put into a system. So this is regulation is starting through regulatory bodies, but this has already been in motion by the big retailers here, you know, so they've been already like, well, we were retrofits every five years.
And I've seen this even when I was in the field, it was like every five years you'd go to, it was there are 12 and I didn't work on much of that, but it went to 22 and then the 404 and then 448, 449, they're just like, man, it's just, it's just too much.
Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah.
And so now there's, there's CO2, cause I've trained quite a few people in New Zealand on CO2 come to my refrigeration courses.
But you're starting to see more and more systems there. How has that impacted the. The way CO2 or the way of refrigeration is in New Zealand because you were working on CO2, you're able to feel five years ago. So this is over five years ago, working on CO2 systems. Is it becoming more normal for technicians to see that or is still the uptake slow in New Zealand for CO2 systems?
It's becoming more prominent, but there's still quite a bit of resistance. And that is largely due to a lack of training. There isn't really a CO2 course in New Zealand. So, so technicians would have to engage the likes of yourself, or there's a training academy in Australia that will go through and you can go there and there's a plant that they can work on.
It's becoming more prominent, but there's still quite a bit of resistance. And that is largely due to a lack of training. There isn't really a CO2 course in New Zealand. So, so technicians would have to engage the likes of yourself, or there's a training academy in Australia that will go through and you can go there and there's a plant that they can work on.
There's nothing really set up in New Zealand. Bayer Ref do have a small one that they travel around with, but it's not sort of a hands on experience. So the training aspect is what people get scared about. I guess they don't want to delve into doing these big CO2 plants because their team aren't skilled in it.
And so that's a huge risk to their business, which is understandable. With CO2, I think the difference, there's not too much different between an HFC system and a CO2 system, a little bit more intricate, higher pressure and two extra valves. That's really, it's quite straightforward. It's, it's not very scary, but there's still that scare factor and behind it.
Yeah, I have that in my CO2 programs all the time. Cause one of the questions I ask is like, what do you want to get out of the program? You know, so I give them. And the find out what the dive in and what is your biggest concerns? You know what I mean? And it's always like, there's a high pressure. It's like, how do I charge dry ice here and all this stuff?
Yeah, I have that in my CO2 programs all the time. Cause one of the questions I ask is like, what do you want to get out of the program? You know, so I give them. And the find out what the dive in and what is your biggest concerns? You know what I mean? And it's always like, there's a high pressure. It's like, how do I charge dry ice here and all this stuff?
Oh, it's a higher amount of leaks, all this stuff. And then after the course, they're just like, Oh man, I want to go try it out. You know what I mean? More comfortable because there are risks. We're with working on, if you don't know, it is higher pressure, but I tell them, you ever used nitrogen before talking about Trevor nitrogen.
And you know, that's 2, 500 PSI, you know what I mean? Or, you know, 200 bar inside the nitrogen tank way higher than CO2 tank, you know, so I never thought of that before. So you're already working pressures way higher. And then I had somebody else reach out on social media is like. Well, they leak more, the higher pressure systems leak more.
Well, we're doing it in refrigeration. Yes. It's higher pressure, but it's not the highest pressures. When you get into hydraulics and you get other, other industries, they're dealing with tens of thousands of PSI, hundreds of thousands of PSI, way above what we're working on. Right. So it's just that, that once again, is that fear factor training, the proper teaching them.
Well, we're doing it in refrigeration. Yes. It's higher pressure, but it's not the highest pressures. When you get into hydraulics and you get other, other industries, they're dealing with tens of thousands of PSI, hundreds of thousands of PSI, way above what we're working on. Right. So it's just that, that once again, is that fear factor training, the proper teaching them.
And so they can judge for themselves. Cause I always, I always say like, go to a CO2 bottle and this is something I should probably change, but let's open it up and listen to it. You know what I mean? How loud that is. Well, that is when like a pressure relief could go off. You know what I mean? Not the high side. You know, there are 120, 130, 000. They scare you when they go out because I had it happen. But,
yeah, Trevor: but they sterile you a bit. It's important to get that training. Yeah, because afterward, just like you on the first time I seen CO2 or worked on a real transcritical was 2015. I think it's almost 10 years now and it was unknown.
It was scary. How do I charge this? And hearing about dry ice, like dry ice is not a thing that you really have to worry about. It's you have to try to make it really like the, if you know what you're doing, you turn the right valves. It's, it's not something that you should consider yourself in the system, in your hoses for sure.
You know? But after I. Played around with it, learned about it. I'm like, this is the same thing. It's a refrigerator moving around the float for places. And I was like, why was I so stressed about it? And people say, well, you've been working with it for so long, Trevor. That's why you're, it's okay for you, but I never worked on it.
You know? But after I. Played around with it, learned about it. I'm like, this is the same thing. It's a refrigerator moving around the float for places. And I was like, why was I so stressed about it? And people say, well, you've been working with it for so long, Trevor. That's why you're, it's okay for you, but I never worked on it.
Well, you got to give it a try too. Cause I see a lot of people just, I don't want to do it cause it's hard and it's changed the high pressure. But after they get into it, they're like, I want more systems to work on. Like this, I can troubleshoot it easier. I can see all these points and points on a,
yeah, that's a really, really interesting to work with. So I wish more people would get on board and go, Hey, let's change all of our stuff to CO2. There is still in New Zealand, I guess, as well. The cost to purchase a CO2 system is much higher than it is for an HFC system. So there's, there's that barrier to get around.
Yeah. So it is more expensive at this point to buy CO2 equipment because it's heavier, heavier equipment, newer technology, but I keep telling everyone it's going to continue to come down like 20 years ago, way higher.
For a CO2 system than is today. They didn't even have the components out, but more manufacturers continue to build and grow their portfolios. And that's making more manufacturers come into the game to be more price competitive. Is there any CO2 manufacturers in New Zealand at all then? No, like equipment manufacturers?
For a CO2 system than is today. They didn't even have the components out, but more manufacturers continue to build and grow their portfolios. And that's making more manufacturers come into the game to be more price competitive. Is there any CO2 manufacturers in New Zealand at all then? No, like equipment manufacturers?
Bayer Ref do small CO2 systems. And in New Zealand, yeah, and cooling equipment also do it as well. They build full CO2 racks here.
Cool.
So, yeah, there's like, there's a couple getting on board.
Yeah, I know my friend Matthew Darby, we used to have lots of conversation about having CO2 system imported and I think he worked with Arne when he was at EcoChill.
And there was quite a few of those systems out there, but once again, when I talked to the technician, I trained him like, well, I don't, I don't see them all the time. And so like I do this training and then I'm going to forget it's continuing education, continuing learning, you know, and it's just about pulling and recovering that refrigerant properly.
We got to continue to talk to people about it because if you're not doing it all the time, because you start to forget, well, what's the process on this? So it's new in education. I love it. I love it. We got to continue to talk to people about it because if you're not doing it all the time, because you start to forget, well, what's the process on this? So it's new in education. I love it. I love it.
That would be me. If I were to go back on the tools now, I'd have to re educate.
And that's fair. You know, me too, even though I train it all the time, it's like, I have to go see the guys do it. And what's the process again? Okay. Can you show me? Yes. I remember it now. So you've been doing this, you've been in this role for four months now, four or five months. And what's the next steps? You're going to work on some regulations and you're going to work on training. It sounds like
I'm Gonna be staying here, trying to increase our collections, where our targets are ever increasing and particularly when, when the PSO kicks in our targets for destruction yeah, we have to destroy a phenomenal amount of refrigerant for New Zealand.
It's probably very little compared to the likes of Canada and Australia and yeah. But yeah, so it's, it's mostly, I'm just going to be focusing on a ensuring that teams happy and, and doing their thing. And just keeping those collections coming in, really removing barriers for the industry.
It's probably very little compared to the likes of Canada and Australia and yeah. But yeah, so it's, it's mostly, I'm just going to be focusing on a ensuring that teams happy and, and doing their thing. And just keeping those collections coming in, really removing barriers for the industry.
What I think is going to really help cool safe. Cause I don't know cool safe that much, but what's going to really help is that you relate to the contractors and the technicians you've been there. And you'll be able to have that, those conversations with them because a lot of times these regulatory bodies and stuff, the people don't have a clue about like refrigeration, what a technician deals with on a daily basis or a contractor has to deal with, with their customers.
And they make up all these rules and regulations without a lot having their input. And how does it impact them? Okay. Let's just stop everything. We can't just, and I'll be honest with you, we can't just stop all the refrigerant production that's out there because there's so many systems. People can't just change.
It's expensive. You know, if you have a 20, 000 pound or kilogram plant and it's our 22, it's not like, okay, I'm just going to change it. I get 10 million to go and retrofit this building. It might have to happen in stages where some regulatory body thinks, no, you've got to go and do all that right now.
It's expensive. You know, if you have a 20, 000 pound or kilogram plant and it's our 22, it's not like, okay, I'm just going to change it. I get 10 million to go and retrofit this building. It might have to happen in stages where some regulatory body thinks, no, you've got to go and do all that right now. That doesn't make sense. So it has to be smart and thought out, which it sounds like you're starting to do those processes, which is good.
Yeah. And I can sort of, you know, like you said, being from the industry, I can see it from a practical perspective and what can work and what can't work and giving it from a technician perspective, particularly with the reporting. You know, how is this going to be a pain point for the techs and for the businesses? What can we do to improve that process? So it's more the processes that I'll be focusing on trying to streamline things and make it easier from, from that practical perspective.
Yeah. Because this is it. And this is what I talk to a lot of. I hear, I'm in a lot of conversation with regulatory people or high level people that are dealing with these regulations. But at the end of the day, it's the technician that has to do this job, you know, manufacturer building the equipment that had, you can't use these older gases or refrigerants. But at the end of the day, it's going to be the technicians.
I hear, I'm in a lot of conversation with regulatory people or high level people that are dealing with these regulations. But at the end of the day, it's the technician that has to do this job, you know, manufacturer building the equipment that had, you can't use these older gases or refrigerants. But at the end of the day, it's going to be the technicians. And I see a lot of people not. Educating them, not sharing this with them or sharing it with a higher level that doesn't pass that down to them. Because the technicians I deal with, they want to do it right. They care about it. They care about the industry. They care about doing a good job. But it's, it seems like there are a lot of time left out and they're, you know, they're pushing to a corner to deal with it on their own.
Well, why aren't they doing it right or wrong? Well, they've been trained 20 years or 10 years to do it this way. And now all of a sudden you want them to shift or ship change overnight. And you know what I mean? So it's, it's going to be a process. And this is why I talk with a lot of technicians in my program.
You get, you know, it's going to be hard. But you got to work towards bettering and like going in the right direction. Cause I hear once why are they doing this? What, what's wrong with this? My systems are fine. They don't leak. You know what I mean? And then there's a lot of fingers being pointed at the end of the day. We're all in refrigeration. We all are trying to make the industry better and uplifted.
Absolutely. And it's a gradual process. It's just a matter of getting people on board and rolling with it and doing the right thing. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's a gradual process. It's just a matter of getting people on board and rolling with it and doing the right thing. Yeah. Yeah.
What are, what are, so you, you're, you're learning this new role, which is great. And I think this is a, this is going to be awesome for New Zealand and the refrigeration industry down down there. What are some of the things that worked so far? So you've been doing it for a few months. So what are some of the things that you feel like are working?
Within CoolSafe specifically we have the coolest courier program. So we recently changed right before I came on board. We went through a transition period from having a physical collection network to getting a it's called coolest courier. So we have a courier network where we go and pick up the customer cylinders.
We bring them back, decant them and then ship them back. That's all free of charge and that's a really cool service to be able to offer. So that's really great. That's sort of, there's, there's kind of two arguments to that, I guess, and that it was easy for customers to drop off at a supplier where now they have to book a form and then we'll come and pick it up.
But also once the form's booked. That's all just done for them. They don't have to worry about it. It gets picked up and it comes back and great. You off you go again. So that I think is being really successful for the program. Obviously being accredited in the last, that was in December. Yeah. So that's really new.
But also once the form's booked. That's all just done for them. They don't have to worry about it. It gets picked up and it comes back and great. You off you go again. So that I think is being really successful for the program. Obviously being accredited in the last, that was in December. Yeah. So that's really new.
That's a massive milestone for the trust to get that across the line. They've been working on this for years, so absolutely amazing. There's lots of things. Within cool safe that we're working on, we're constantly evolving, changing processes, implementing new things mostly streamline up for the industry so that it's easy.
So, Trevor: and I think that that's where you're going to have your biggest wins. If you could figure out how to make it easy for the technician, which makes it easier for the contractor, which makes it easier for the end user. And there's always going to be pain points. There's always going to be roadblocks, but you're a technician.
You've been up again. We break them down. Yeah. That's it. You've been doing this for decades. So I love it. I love it. I'd love to hear your, like one or two tips that you could give a technician, because I know you're heavily into education, you're heavily into training and supporting the industry. What are one or two tips of a, a new technician or someone who's been doing it a couple of years that you would like to offer them?
You've been up again. We break them down. Yeah. That's it. You've been doing this for decades. So I love it. I love it. I'd love to hear your, like one or two tips that you could give a technician, because I know you're heavily into education, you're heavily into training and supporting the industry. What are one or two tips of a, a new technician or someone who's been doing it a couple of years that you would like to offer them?
Yeah. Okay. If somebody tells you that you can't. work harder to prove that you can, because you absolutely can, and you absolutely should. And, you know, everybody's going to give an opinion, but the thing about opinions is everyone has one and they're not relevant. So you take what you need, what you need to build yourself to work harder on yourself and take that role with it and prove that you can absolutely prove that you can.
Yeah. There's been lots of people in my career who have. outright told me, you shouldn't be doing that. I'm like, why shouldn't I be doing that? I think I should be doing that. And I'm going to keep doing that. And you know, it's actually given me motivation to keep going and, and be better. Okay. You think I'm not good enough.
why shouldn't I be doing that? I think I should be doing that. And I'm going to keep doing that. And you know, it's actually given me motivation to keep going and, and be better. Okay. You think I'm not good enough. Well, I'll make sure, you know, I am good enough. And it's that motivation that's, that sort of kept me going and growing and wanting to continue my learning journey. So yeah, I think that's really important to know that when people aren't in your corner, be in your own corner.
I love that. That's awesome. Yeah. And, and the next one, I guess, is surround yourself with good people who do support you. You need to have that support network that could be joining groups. So I'm on the committee for women in HVAC and R for New Zealand. That's a bunch of fantastic women who have. Similar experiences to mine in the industry.
And it's great to have those sort of people around you, but also not just women, we need men in our corner. On the tools I've been lucky enough to have build lifelong friendships. You need those people in your corner and not just to prove people wrong, but when you don't believe in yourself, you need to know that somebody else does believe in you and I think another really important part of having the support network is.
And it's great to have those sort of people around you, but also not just women, we need men in our corner. On the tools I've been lucky enough to have build lifelong friendships. You need those people in your corner and not just to prove people wrong, but when you don't believe in yourself, you need to know that somebody else does believe in you and I think another really important part of having the support network is.
accountability. There's been times where I've gone and confided in someone and gone, Oh my gosh, this has happened. What do I do? And I've gone, actually, Megan, I think you're wrong. And I probably would have dealt with it better if I were you and then you have to do this inner reflection and go, Oh, okay, maybe I'll go back and apologize because that helps you build relationships and accountability is essential to building and maintaining these relationships and actually staying respected in the industry, if you can't hold yourself accountable.
Then there's no point in doing what you're doing because you there's always so much to learn here. You're learning something new every single day. So you need to be keeping yourself accountable. And if you have people in your corner that can help you do that, that's amazing. And it's invaluable.
Drop them, Mike. I love it. I love it. That is great. And wise words because it is so important. It is that you can do it. It is going to be hard. This is a refrigeration, you know what I mean? But you can surround yourself with good people. And it's sometimes hurt. Sometimes you have to change. Like a lot of my groups that I talked to might have to change friends sometimes or change companies.
I love it. I love it. That is great. And wise words because it is so important. It is that you can do it. It is going to be hard. This is a refrigeration, you know what I mean? But you can surround yourself with good people. And it's sometimes hurt. Sometimes you have to change. Like a lot of my groups that I talked to might have to change friends sometimes or change companies.
The company could be bad for you. And this is why you're in the situation you are in. Don't blame the company. You got to look at yourself and be accountable. Why? And ask yourself, should I still be here or should I try to move on? And that's hard. Change is hard, man. I love that stuff. I'm looking forward to meeting you in person. That will be awesome. How can people find out more about you? More about Koolsafe?
Ooh, for Koolsafe, they could go to our website, www. koolsafe. org. nz. For me, I guess they can reach out to me directly on LinkedIn, .
Yeah, that sounds great. Megan, I want to thank you so much for taking the time, sharing some of your insight. I'm looking forward to seeing your success. You got a, you got a, you got a big hill to climb right now. Absolutely. To be honest with you, you got a big hill to climb. But I know you can do it, you know what I mean? And it's working with the right people, connecting and networking and just trying to do the right thing and sharing and educating.
I'm looking forward to seeing your success. You got a, you got a, you got a big hill to climb right now. Absolutely. To be honest with you, you got a big hill to climb. But I know you can do it, you know what I mean? And it's working with the right people, connecting and networking and just trying to do the right thing and sharing and educating.
And I think that's the biggest thing. We're all about training, education, and mentorship here at Refrigeration Mentor. And that's what you're trying to do. Love it. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for having me.