Rich Roll || A Psychological Case Study on Greatness

dive into today's episode. First, I wanted to let you know that if you'd prefer an ad free experience and would also like early access to new episodes, you can join us at patreon dot com slash psych Podcast. That's patreon dot com slash psych podcast for a completely ad free experience and also early access to new episodes. Also, I wanted to let you know that my Transcend course is coming back in February. The next iteration of the course will offer even more ways to help you live

more fulfilling, meaningful, creative, and self actualized life. There will only be one hundred and fifty limited slots available, though, so you're gonna want to save your spot as soon as possible and also catch the early bird special, so you can go to Transcend Course dot com to sign up. That's Transcend Course dot Com. Okay, now let's dive into today's episode. Today, it's great to chat with Rich Role

on the podcast. Named one of the twenty five Fittest Men in the World by Men's Fitness and the Guru of Reinvention by Outside, Rich is a globally renowned ultra endurance athlete, wellness advocate, bestselling author, husband, father of four. Rich shares his inspirational story of addiction, redemption and optimal health in his number one best selling memoir Finding Ultra and the cookbook and lifestyle guides The Plant Powerway and The Plant Powerway Italia, which he co authored with his wife,

Julie Piai. Rich has been featured on CNN, on the cover of Outside magazine, and has been profiled everywhere from The New York Times to the Wall Street Journal. His latest book, Voicing Change, features timeless wisdom and inspiration from the widely popular Ritual Podcast, one of the top one hundred podcasts in the world with over one hundred million downloads. Rich, I'm so excited to chat with you today. Thanks for having me, Scott. It's good to see you excited to

dig into this man. Yeah, to get me all pumped for this interview. I went for a run this morning and I was like trying to channel my inner ritual as I as I did my one mile run. Nice. That's great. Yeah, you know, I'd like to have goals, you know, like I run to the coffee shop, do you know what I mean? So then I can have my favorite coffee. But that my goal is like the coffee, not the run. That's all right, man, whatever gets you there. Yeah, No,

it's really exciting to chat with you. You You know. I'm a psychologist, as you know, and I'm really interested in sort of the narratives that people looking back kind of when you look at your whole life story and you try to think, well what try to make sense of it all? You know, and you know, in researching you and for this podcast, I identified it looked like there's three at least three major transformations that are part of

this narrative. It's funny when you look at research on you or you know, articles about you, they tend to focus on this this one transformation from alcoholism to an elite athlete. But I like to look at more you know, nuanced level of things. And this is the Psychology podcast. So I was hoping we could chat today and kind of do a case study of ritual and what those lessons can offer to anyone aspiring to greatness. Yeah, that sounds great. I'm all about it. Like the more we

can make this a therapy session, the better. Well, let's do it. I'll treat you like a patient. You know. One thing I'm really a big fan of in moving this the psychology direction, the whole field of psychology more into a more positive psychology direction, So not focusing entirely on what's wrong with someone or going from negative fifty to zero, but what is it to go from zero

to positive fifty? Right? And when I was looking at your story, you know, I'll just tell you the three major transformations I saw, and I'd love to hear you tell me what you think of that. So it seems like there was this one big transformation where you you decided you were an alcoholic, you know, you were an alcoholic, and you went through you decided enough was enough. You the Rubbert met the road, you know, at a certain point,

I believe you were in jail. You found yourself in jail at one point and you're like, you know, enough is enough with this, and you went through the steps and the commitment to not be an alcoholic. But then it seemed like there was this period of about ten years between your thirties and forties. We were a lawyer. You were not an alcoholic, but you were still kind

of transferring addiction from one thing to another. So you weren't an alcoholic anymore, but it seems like you were still addicted to something, you know, and it maybe success, maybe money. And I'd love to hear more about what you thought you were addicted to and how you would

put it. From your thirties to forties and then in your early forties, it seemed like there was a third transformation, and that's the one I really want to you know, after we cover the first, I really want to nail what is this this new transformation, because that's not in the stories about you. That's you know, when I read these kind of journal articles about you, they again they seem to focus so much on from alcoholism to endurance athlete.

But there's this third, you know, awakening that I that I see you have having now and I'd love to discuss that. So let's start focusing on the first transformation. So can you tell me a little bit more about why you decided and what and how you got that will to once and for all overcome the alcoholism, well as any good recovering alcoholic will tell you, you you know,

alcoholism tends to move. It's not a linear progression, but it tends to move, and you know, in one direction, as they say in the rooms, you either end up in jail or an institution or death. And I had, you know, checked two of those boxes. There was only one left. I was holding on to it desperately for life though, because it was my best friend and it was my coping mechanism and I couldn't imagine life without it.

And I had gone through, you know, some trauma with a marriage that got fit, that failed, and despite you know, my life kind of falling apart around me and people fleeing from the hills, I refused to, you know, basically deal with this problem that that you know, was so evident and leading me into a pretty dark place. And at the end, you know, there's nothing sexy or romantic about it. I was just alone, you know, in kind of a sad apartment, drinking by myself around the clock,

with nobody to call and nobody calling on me. And ultimately, you know, I woke up one day and it wasn't you know, I was hungover, but it wasn't that different from many many other days, similar days. But I just had had enough, Like the switch got flicked and I

was like, I cannot live this way anymore. And at the time, I'd been seeing an addiction psychologist, really and that that was an interesting, you know, experience that my parents didn't want anything to do with me anymore, but they did hook me up with this psychologist and said, we just at least go talk to this guy. And I did, and I was seeing him. It was so clear to him that I needed to go to a treatment center, that I needed to be extracted from my

environment and placed in a more structured environment. And I didn't think that I needed to and I thought that I could solve this problem by myself. And I'm somebody who's driven by self will and in many ways had premised my life on my sort of workhorse capacity to succeed. And when I would look in the rear view mirror, I would say, I accomplished all of these things because I know how to outwork everybody else. I know how to solve problems on my own. There's no reason why

I can't solve this problem myself either. And I was really reluctant to let anyone else in because of a lot of shame and other reasons that scared me. So I was in this sort of game playing thing with him where he would say, you know, I think it's time to go to treatment. I'd say, well, let me. I think I got it this time, you know, but if I relapse again, then we can resurface this conversation. Okay, Like he never pressed me because he knew I would

go out and relapse again. And then I did, of course, And this happened several times. But eventually, me being this person who thought I was like a man of my word, even though I was this you know, bad actor and a horrible liar who couldn't show up on time for anything or you know, handle my life in any responsible fashion. After yet another relapse, I slunk back into his office

and I told him, yeah, I relapsed again. And because I was such a man of my word, I said, okay, well, we'll do it your way, and I agreed, and he helped get me a bed in a facility up in Oregon called Springbrook Northwest. It's now been taken over by Hazelton. And that's how you know, I ended up in a treatment center. But I went into that experience thinking, you know, I need to get in and out of this as

quickly as possible, because you know, I've got this. I'm you know, I'm a lawyer, and I have responsibility all this nonsense, right, But it wasn't until I got there and kind of settled in and realized, you know, just how dire the concert coints as you know, like my actions were like I'm basically in a mental institution. You know, this guy who walked the planet thinking he was a

pretty smart guy, turns out maybe not so smart. And that really once I, you know, the fog clear, that really landed on me and I realized that that I needed to figure this out, and I became willing, willing to ask for help and more importantly, willing to receive help. And that willingness, I think is really what allowed me to not only gets sober, but stay sober. Yeah, you know, in the field of psychology, there's we talk about grit as though it's a trait, you know, this personality trait.

And and what's interesting about this story, this at least this first transformation, is it doesn't sound like you were a particularly gritty person in college or you know, when you were when you were an alcoholic, you know, you were disorganized, you know, you didn't you weren't displaying those

personality traits. Now. I don't know if it was a matter of maybe you were a perfectionist and some people go to alcoholism because they are so overwhelmed with the fact that they can't control everything, as they're so overwhelmed

that they aren't living up to their highest potential. I don't know if that was part of it, But what is interesting to me is how you could almost overnight go from someone who doesn't appear gritty at all to quite frankly when those gritty individuals who's ever lived on

planet Earth? Well, I do think that I am actually pretty gritty, and despite you know, my life kind of capsizing in that way for a long time, I was a very functional alcoholic and you know, was able to still you know, get good grades at Stanford and get into Cornell Law School and somehow graduate law school and get a job in a law firm and not lose that job. So I was balancing these two different worlds.

And that grittiness, I think is something that I developed young as a competitive swimmer, which is really kind of what brought me to Stanford in the first place, Like competing on this unbelievable team of world record holders and Olympic athletes and NC TWOA champions, and as an athlete, you know, I had some modicum of talent, but I wasn't Olympic caliber. I was never going to be Olympic caliber. And any success that I that I had as an athlete was by dint of learning how to outwork everybody.

So I was the guy in high school who got up at four thirty every day and swam for two hours and went to school and then went back to the pool for two more hours, then went did homework

and was in bed by nine. And you know, by like learning how to show up and learning how to outwork everybody else in the pool, I was able to go from a pretty medium talent to somebody who was recruited at all these colleges, and you know, one of the outstanding swimmers in my region and you know, top eight in the country and my age group in my events. So when I was talking about self will, like, that's what I'm like. I understood how to will my way

into a successful situation. And I think grit plays a part there. The thing with alcoholism is that grit doesn't work and self will doesn't work because it's very much a surrendering process of letting go, of shedding as opposed to kind of a forcing energy. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense, and thank you for that and that carverifcation. I mean, you know yourself more better than I know you. So it's good to hear about. You know, what were you like there? As even in high school?

You know, like what how would you describe your personality, you know structure. I was a very you know, bookish,

introverted kid. I was a kid who, you know, in elementary school, you know, was ridiculed and bullied and had an eyepatch and headgear, you know really and would get my you know, my beanie in the winter times at the bus stop stolen, and you know, just not a kid who showed any athletic promise whatsoever, had a lot of difficulty making friends and was kind of a sensitive kid and struggled, you know, and I think with that

I just turned inward. And you know, now it's clear to me that the swimming pool was really my first drugg at choice. I mean, that was like a safe haven when I discovered that I not only enjoyed swimming but was pretty okay at it. That's where I gravitated. That became not only like my focus and my passion, but also my social circle outside of school because it

didn't have anything to do with school. But when in my head was underwater, all that anxiety and sort of dissatisfaction or you know, those those feelings of insecurity and self poor self esteem were muted by you know, being underwater and being kind of away from the world. And I think that that's somehow related psychologically to the alcoholism and is still you know, something that I contend with today.

I think that that, you know, there's a there's a relationship there between alcoholism and my relationship was swimming in the pool in that phase of my life. That's that's really super interesting. I wonder how how much you see that link among competitive swimmers. You know, I don't even

I don't know if that's ever been studied. Well, I do know that in the in the endurance community and specifically the ultra endurance community, where you know, these these are kind of ragtag races where you know, there's no media and there's no prize money, or I think is people are sleeping in tents and they're running fifty miles

or one hundred miles. There's a lot of people in recovery that are in that community, lots of tattoos, lots of you know, ex junkies, and and somebody should really do a study on that correlation, because I think it's fascinating. It's there's something about you know, I think I think an argument can be made that that alcoholics and drug addicts are are fundamentally seekers, you know, spiritual seekers. They're

looking for answers. They're doing it in a very unhealthy way, but there's something about this life that that isn't doing it for them, and they're trying to find out, you know, they're trying to they're seeking for a higher state of consciousness, right, they're doing it through a substance. But ultimately, endurance sports is you know, a different kind of template for that

exploration for sure. And you see people in that community, in the biohacking community, you know, people who might be an interested in ultra endured sports, really interested in experimenting with new tropics for instance. You know, I wonder if it's a similar sort of seeking, you know, even though neotropics obviously aren't. It's not the same thing as alcohol. But right, yeah, I mean there's there is something to that. I think. Okay, let's go. Let's go to your thirties.

You're in your thirties, you become a lawyer. What is the transformation there, you know, from immediately from not being an alcoholic anymore, in an entering adulthood, entering a profession. Well, I kind of emerged from the treatment center where I lived for one hundred days. I was in treatment for quite a long period of time, and when I emerged from that, it was scary, like, now I have to

go back into the world. My law firm had been very supportive of me during that time, but I had to go back and work there, you know, after having this transformative experience. So I took my tool of things that I learned and returned to Los Angeles and made

sobriety my number one priority. Like basically, you know, completely immersed myself in the AA community here in town, going to two meetings a day and working with newcomers and getting a sponsor and just making a whole I needed a whole new set of friends, like I had to completely overhaul my my social circle. At the same time, I was very intent on making up for lost time and you know, re establishing myself as an upwardly mobile, you know, responsible professional, and I think I put a

lot of pressure on myself. Some of that pressure emanates from parental expectations. I grew up in a household where my you know, it was very education focused place, and my dad's a successful lawyer, and there was he was never like a you know, it wasn't like a super intense environment, but there was just kind of this air, you know that Okay, you're these are the things that you're going to do in the world. And I was

trying to live up to those expectations. And also you had a lot of shame because as a young person, you know, when I was eighteen, I was, you know, one of the best swimmers in the country. I got into every college that I applied to. I got into Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, AMers, like all these places, and showed up at one of the greatest universities in the world to be a member of at the time, the greatest collegiate swim team ever.

So the world was like my oyster. I mean, there were you know, I was like, you know, like I could have been you know, like the path was, the doors were swinging wide open for me, and there was a lot of like, oh, Rich is going to do something big in the world or you know, and I and then I screwed all that up and made a disaster of my life. And so throughout my thirties, I was trying to you know, recapture some aspect of who that guy was when I was eighteen, and so you

know that translated into workoholism and my alcoholic tendencies. You know, I was still new in sobriety, Like I wasn't using drugs or alcohol, but I didn't have a mastery over the spiritual tools required to manage what alcoholism is, how it manifests in every other facet of your life. So you know, it workaholic, you know, panicked about finances and trying to make money and trying to you know, impress

people with stuff and status and the like. And you know, along the way, never thought for a second like maybe I shouldn't be a lawyer, or maybe I should do something else, or what is it that you know would make you happy rich. I was just focused on achievement, and I think a decade spent trying to jam a square peg into a round hole and grinding my teeth

and you know, just trying to make it work. Eventually, you know, I cracked, and it led to an existential crisis that basically developed in parallel with a decline in my health because I've been overlooking my well being and

medicating myself with junk food and terrible lifestyle habits. So despite having been this swimmer in college, you know, I wasn't exercising really, I was just working eighty hour weeks and had put on fifty pounds and would hit the drive through on the way home or order the Chinese takeout in the law firm. And you know, when you're young,

you can get away with that stuff. But you know, by thirty nine, it had really caught up to me, and so it all kind of came to a head shortly before I turned forty, where I had this moment walking up the flight of stairs to go to sleep after a long day at work and a bunch of cheeseburgers in my gut, where you know, I had I was two winded to complete that staircase assault and had to take a break, had some tightness in my chest.

Heart disease runs in my family, and it was it was a scary moment where you know, for the second time, I had this kind of you know, moment of awake and this dawning realization that I just couldn't live my life this way anymore. And I think because I had that you know, awareness with my drinking and ended up in a treatment center, and you know, ten years had passed, and I was so aware of how dramatically my life had improved and changed by virtue of making that one

single decision that I had. I think a hypervigilance around like it happening again, like I knew when it was happening, Like this is exactly like when I decided to go to go to treatment, Like I'm being gifted another opportunity to once again make some changes that could be significant in my life, and I think that's the biggest takeaway

for me. I think, I think we're all we all are visited by moments like this, I think, but most most of the time they passed because we don't honor them as much as we should, or we're too disconnected from ourselves to kind of recognize them when they arrive. Yeah, So what were the changes you made in your early forties and what led you to running a five iron man distance? You ran five iron Man distance events in seventies. Is that right, right? On? Five different Hawaiian islands, five

different Hawaiianians. Yeah, no big deal. So what led to that? So what happened was, you know, my whole my rubric is twelve Step, Like That's what got me sober, and that was what I was familiar with. I was very, you know and still am, you know, steeped in in that community. So in the wake of that staircase experience, I kind of was trying to leverage what I'd learned in twelve Step and figure out how to apply that

to general lifestyle habits. And all I knew is that when I showed up in a treatment center, they threw me in detox for a couple of days until I sobered up, and I just thought, I need that for my life, right, you know, I need that for food. I need that for you know, basically I need to detox myself off off of my lifestyle habits. So how do you do that? Well, I thought, why don't I do a juice clanse like that seems to be things that you know a lot of people do. My wife

had done it before. I'd never gone a single day in my life without eating solid food. So she helped me sort that out. And for seven days, all I did was you know, drink press juice and some bras like no solid food. And you know, my thinking in doing that wasn't that, oh, I need to remove the

toxins from my body. I just needed to do something hard that would trigger the same emotions that I experienced when I was detoxing off of drugs and alcohol, Like I needed to do something outside of my comfort zone that would be difficult to kind of reboot my operating system and reframe, like so I could start fresh, like wipe the slate clean. And that experience achieved that, Like, it was very difficult. The first couple of days, I'm laying on the couch sweating, just like you would if

you were trying to get off heroin or something. And then, you know, by the end of that week, I felt unbelievable. I had a clarity of mind and a body like

a resurgence and vitality. And it was such a short period of time, and I think that that planted the seed that food really can be medicine, like what you put in your body actually does impact how you feel, which is something I'd never thought about at all, really, and that catalyzed my motivation to continue this search and also find a way of eating that would allow me to feel like that all the time, because the alcoholic in me is just thinking, well, I'll just do this

cleanse forever. Like I got addicted to that feeling of what it felt like. I don't want to go back to food. I wanted to keep doing this, and my wife was, you know, had to disabuse me of that, you know, like that's a very alcoholic thought, and that took some time to figure out, like how you know, and it wasn't you know, I tried a bunch of diets and it wasn't until you know, I took a stab at eating one hundred percent plant based diet that I connected with what worked for me, and I've been

eating that way ever since. And with that, you know, kind of renewed vigor that got me interested in physical

movement again, which is something that started very casually. I had no desire to returning to becoming a competitive athlete, but very quickly, by you know, dusting off an old pair of running shoes and riding a bike occasionally and hitting the pool, you know, very casually, the weight came off really quickly, and the fitness returned pretty rapidly, and I was seeing incredible gains in a short period of time.

And then I had an experience, like four or five months into this where you know, I dropped into like a crazy flow state on a run that was intended to just be like an hour, and I ended up running like twenty four miles, which was something I'd never I'd never run that far before in my life. I

couldn't believe that my body could do that. I thought, you know, any any kind of athletic excellence was well in my rear view as a forty year old man at this point, and that got me interested in seeking out a challenge for myself and I think part of that was a little bit of midlife crisis, like, oh,

what do you do when you turn forty? You do an iron man Like it's kind of a trope, but you know, me meets I meets this nagging feeling that I had that I never achieved my potential as an athlete because alcoholism, you know, really destroyed my swimming career. But also, and I think most importantly, for the first time, I was trying to address this existential crisis like I'm this lawyer, but like, I can't stand being a lawyer, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do with myself.

I don't even know how to begin to unpack that journey of self inquiry to figure out like what my blueprint is or even what gets me excited. All I knew is that I really enjoyed endurance exercise and started doing more of it, and it was reconnecting me with this really just innocent joy that I experienced as a kid. These things made me happy and it was really just about that. But soon it clicked in that it's what we were talking about before, that it can be this

means for spiritual exploration. There is something about being alone, you know, for an extended period of time with an elevated heart rate, you know, focused on your breath that triggers this you know, active meditative state that really allowed me to drop deep into myself and play with those questions, wrestle with them, and ultimately, you know, I endurance sports played a huge part in helping me, you know, figure that out. The success that I've had in endurance sports

is not that important to me. It's the thing that people seem interested in. But when I look back on the things that I've done, They've all just been tools to help me become a better, more self actualized person so that I can be a better servant for others. Yeah, so thank you for saying all that. You know, it's really interesting to think about your addiction, proneness, tendencies, because it seems like it's a feature of you, not a bug. You know. My friends with of Colllerhood does a lot

of work on flow. He said that flow is the most addictive state known to humankind. So it's funny because you're kind of saying, like, you know, I went from being addicted to then I really started to love the flow state, and I was like, well, I think you

probably got addicted to the full state. But I don't think that's a I don't say that as a negative thing, you know, I say that as a this this is what I see with you, because you're an all in kind of guy, like you know, you you you don't believe in balance, you know, you believe in This is who you are. This is your authentic This is the

authentic you. It wouldn't feel authentic to you. I imagine if I if someone tried to force you, and you know, like probably that's why the lawyer profession didn't really make you feel as authentic as possible. So whatever you're gonna do, you're gonna go all in. And and when one can put all these labels, I'm not a fan of labels. Rich. You know, one can use words addiction to describe certain states of consciousness, and it probably just doesn't even make

sense to apply certain labels to certain things. But that feeling of the full state is, you know, and all the neurochemicals that are activated during that full state, and they give us pleasure, that give us a sense of tranquility, and of course it's going to want to make you return to it again and again and again, Yeah, one hundred percent. I'm definitely, you know, somebody who's never been

able to crack the balance code. For a long time, I would feel bad about myself trying to figure out how I could be more balanced, and finally I just let go of all of that and just realize, like, it's not me, and why am I trying to yet again, you know, jam a square peg into a round hole with this, Like I am an all all in person and I'm going to stop judging myself for that and instead try to find a way to manage it in

a healthy way. And you know, so the way I look at it is, you know, the pendulum is always swinging, and mine tends to swing, you know, a little bit further than other people in either direction, but it always swings back. You know. Certainly, I do love, you know, going all in on something, but I have many things in my life that are important and if those aren't getting attention, then nothing else matters. Everything is going to capsize around me. So you know, I can only go

I don't you know. I have friends that who have been married for a long time and they found of size about the golf trip with their buddies in Las Vegas, and I think about living by myself in the woods and just being able to do what I want to do all day long. You know. Oh yeah, so I can you know what I mean, like, so I can go all in and nobody's gonna bug me. I mean, to me, that's bliss, you know, to a lot of introverts and just people who value solitude, that's that's bliss.

I mean to a lot of people. This pandemic is you know, you're you're supposed to complain, you know, Oh it sucks that I have to be on zoom and I can't go to the workplace. But a lot of people are secretly being like this is amazing. I don't have to go outside too much and interact with humans. But it just seems like this, you know, this idea of authenticity, and it's not It wasn't a matter of like shedding things. It was a matter it was a matter of like becoming you know, who you were meant

to be. You didn't like let go as much as I mean, you certainly let go. I mean that's certainly part of the story, of course, but there was certainly this you know, this authentic process that you went through was really like a process of acceptance in a lot of ways and integrating who you are. I talk a lot about the importance of integrating the dark side, you know, and you had this full acceptance that you're an all in kind of guy, and what an amazing like to me,

that's a transformation itself for someone to embrace. Well, you know what, this is who I am. But I'm going to apply this and integrate this to higher values instead of other values that I've had in the past. It takes a lot of bravery. I appreciate that, you know. I still you know, I get asked a lot like, well, aren't you just still living your life alcoholically, like whether it's these crazy super long races or the other things that interest me, And you know, I always validate that.

I'm like, probably, you know me. You know, it's like it's not for you could have your perspective on that. If that's your perspective, Like I don't drink or use drugs, I certainly can be alcoholic in my pursuits, but what is exactly what exactly does that mean? And when is it okay? And when is it you know, the moment to recal and the only way that I know how to do that for myself, because I'm a poor judge

of my own behavior. Is to surround myself with people who give me feedback, who say, who know me, know the best of me, and know when I'm starting to get off track, so you know, I don't have those blind spots. What does off track mean? Is off track usually something involving ego. I mean, can you describe what? Do you know what off track means? Oh? It can

mean a lot of things. I mean, yeah, you know, my natural disposition is to be irascible and grouchy and self serving and selfish and irritable and blind to you know the fact that there are other people in my life that rely upon me and need me and all the like. So you know, I have to be constantly reminded that or otherwise I'll retreat into my shell, you know, which is kind of like you know, in this pandemic, like you were talking about, is easier and easier to do.

And you know, when I'm working my program and I'm you know, doing all the good stuff, like I'm I'm pretty good, but you know, I'm highly imperfect at all of this, and so I just think it's important to have, you know, friends and people that know you whoo, who you check in with that you tell the truth to, so they can say they can be the mirror you know that that I'm unable to see. So I'm want to give you a mirror that it seems like you're

unable to see. When Lewis Howes was on my podcast about a couple of years ago, I asked him, out of everyone you've ever interviewed, and you've interviewed a lot of people in your podcast, I was talking to Lewis, he does this Greatness podcast. I said, who inspires you the most? And he said, without even thinking about it, he said Rich Role. Oh wow, he said, Rich Role was the kindest, most inspiring person who I aspire to become as a as a as a man, you know,

as a person. And so there's something there's something interesting here in that, you know, you you find that some people who have this kind of self image on themselves is you know, you describe yourself as irascible as all these things. Those people sometimes having that self awareness is actually what allows them to create a value system in their life consciously and intentionally that allows them to paradoxically inspire people more so than those who aren't self aware

of those tendencies within themselves. They're just tendencies that you've become aware of, and that has been a benefit to you, becoming painfully and without any self illusions, aware of it. I don't know, what do you think? How does some of this hit? Yeah? I mean I think you know, we're all victims of our character defects to one degree

or another. And I've just learned, you know, mostly through being an alcoholics anonymous, to develop self awareness around those things, to own them and work through them so that they don't cause the kind of shame that leads to one trying to hide it from other people. Like, there's something very powerful about just owning who you are and doing it in a way that shows that it doesn't it doesn't hold any emotional baggage for you, Like, yeah, this

is this is what I do. You know, Like if I don't do this, then this is how I act. And I think that's refreshing for other people because it gives them permission to be honest and it allows them to emotionally it's a breeding ground for intimacy, right, Like if you I always try to lead with vulnerability. You know, I don't have everything figured out. I've been successful in certain things, but if I really want to connect with another human being, like I have to be vulnerable first

to give them the permission to be vulnerable. And when I do that, that's where true connection happens. And there's a difference between performative vulnerability, which you see a lot of in social media right now because people think it's oh, it trends, well, it's cool to be there's research on that, yeah, and that's actually dishonest. You know, that's that's the antithesis of vulnerability in certain ways. So I'm always running that calculus and trying to put my ego in the backseat

instead of in the driver's seat. And when I do that, I'm able to develop deeper relationships with other people. And I find that the things that I care about talking about tend to connect better with the people who are interested in what I have to say. Absolutely, And you do that in your podcasts so well to elicit stories from people. People aren't going to be vulnerable. The stories aren't going to be pretty good. Stories are not going to be good if they're not vulnerable at all. Right,

you know, A lot, lot. That's a key component of a lot of the stories that really grab at people's hearts in a lot of ways. You know. Just to circle back to the research on what you're talking about, there is a concept called vulnerable narcissism that I study and have published papers on this, and it is a trait that people often talk about the grandiose narcissist, like

the Donald Trump type of chest thumping narcissists. But in the clinical literature, the ones who end up on the psychologist couch tend to be those who are vulnerable narcissts. They feel as though their vulnerability entitles them to special privileges, as opposed to a grandiose narcissist who thinks that they're entitled to special privileges because they're great. So there's a whole literature on this. It's interesting. Got to I would like to read some of that literature. That's a sendit

to you, Yeah, send it to you. So I'm trying to extract and doing research about you. I wanted to extract some you know, reoccurring patterns of things you talk about that I think really can inspire a lot of people and offer an example vulnerable vulnerable example of what one could be. So one area that I think we're

both really interested in is growth and self actualization. You know, I've been on this project to bring the Human Potential movement, you know, from the Esslent era into the twenty first century, and I'm really committed to understanding human basic human needs and how they get in the way of self actualization. So one common area of interest with both of us is this idea of choosing growth. And I'd love to

hear some more of your thoughts about this. But you know, you talk to ones and you said, every decision I make is moving me towards a drink or away from it, and we can build that principle up to everything in life, right, uh, Rich, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about that, you know, because it's I think it's a really profound, profound idea once we start building that up to one's entire lifestyle. Well, let me preface this by saying that

although I may choose growth, I do it begrudgingly. And that's truly, you know, only pain that that actually gets me to change any of my bs, you know, all these levers that we're talking about you know, in my life, were motivated by being in a sufficient amount of pain where the pain of my current state outweighed the fear of change or the fear of the unknown. Like it's

just a weird thing that is human beings. We're so recalcitrant, We're so reticent to change our behaviors or our patterns, and it's not until we're, you know, in some crisis that we're even willing to entertain that despite the fact that change is available to all of us at any given moment. So for me, the best way to remind myself of that, or to kind of maintain some conscious awareness of it, is to snap myself out of this

delusion that things are static. You know, we're all talking now about like when are we going to get back to things being normal? Like things are never going to go back to normal. And even if, you know, even when we get past the pandemic, there's a lot of ways in which we're society is now structured that are not going to bounce back to the way that things were before. There is no real normal. Everything is constantly

changing and in flux. And the more that you can be present with that truth, I think the more malleable you can be, so that adage of yes, every thought that I entertain, every interaction that I have with another human being, over behavior that I indulge is either moving me towards growth or regressing me back to, you know, some person that I don't want to be. And that kind of mantra is really a practice in mindfulness, right.

It's it's developing a greater awareness of truth, and it's about being anchored in the moment and not living in the past or future tripping. You know, it allows you to step a little bit outside of the stories we tell ourselves about who we are that so often, you know, most of the time, become predictors of what we will do in the future because they're based on some narrative that somewhere along the line, you know, we decided was important based on a couple events that occurred in our

past that are so powerful in terms of outcomes. So the more we can hold those stories a little bit more loosely and provide space to create new stories, I think is you know, a way to approach growth and change in a way that is perhaps a little bit less intimidating. I love that, and constantly changing the narrative. You know, I want to ask you, have in the past ten years of your life, have you changed your own interpretation of your own life narrative in any ways?

Because I feel like I almost interpret your story in a different way than the media interprets your story. And do you agree with the way the media always interprets your story? And these are sort of questions I have for you. Yeah, it's that's a great question. I love this question, and I think about this a lot. You know, if you read there's plenty of stories about me on the internet, a lot of them. Most of them get it wrong factoring so too, you know, and actually, yeah,

factually they get it wrong. But also the story is sort of you know, I woke up one day and changed my life and everything changed overnight, you know, and it's like it's like not true, like my growth. You know, I was introduced to spiritual principles in nineteen ninety eight when I went to rehab, and then I spent the next ten years applying them, you know, very poorly in my life, slowly growing, and then you know, at forty, I was like, I need another change. I'm fifty four now,

so it's you know, these things happen. They're like tectonic plates shifting slowly over decades to you know kind of you know, produce the person that I am today. Also, there's this narrative that adopting a plant based diet solved my addiction problem. You know, there's like all kinds of weird you know, ideas out there that that that get

it completely wrong. And I think on top when I layering on top of that is the fact that, you know, I'm often on podcasts like yours and being asked to recount the facts of my story, and I always try to not just like I can easily knee jerk answer these questions. You know, I have a keynote speech where I tell my story over an hour and it becomes so wrote that I often think, did that even happen?

Like it's just total bullshit, like you know, and I'll call myself out and I was like, that's not really what happened. Is that what happened? Like memory is such an unpredictable you know, it's just unreliable in that regard, and so after repeating it and repeating and repeating it, you know, I have to constantly go like, just because you said that ten times before, it doesn't mean that

it's true if it didn't actually happen that way. So I am always trying to deconstruct the story a little bit more, and every time I'm asked, I do really try to, you know, mind my awareness to you know, remember it differently, not remember it differently, or try to remember some different aspect of it so I can approach the truth of it. But it's hard because after you've said it so many times, like what is true and

what isn't true? I mean, certainly you know the facts that I've related are correct, but the emotional experience of that at the time, I'm always questioning whether that's actually how it went down or not. You know, making meaning of our lives is so intimately tied with the narratives that we tell about our life. And when I see you as I try to look as objectively as possible, not being influenced by what people tell me are the narrative of your life. This is here's one thing I

noticed about you. There's something in psychology we call this is actually only really recent research. You know, people have talked about different paths to the good life throughout the course of human history, people have debated different paths of the good life. Some people argue it's happiness and hedonia, you know. Aristotle and others talked about you'd ammonia, you know, meaning and virtue. But more recent years there's been a kind of a third path identified that's just simply the

psychologically rich life. And I wrote an article for Scientific American about this's called the psychological ritual life that I'll send you because I see a lot of it in your own patterns of behavior. You know, it's important to look at it's important to unearth beneath the labels. You know, we can get stuck by these labels. You know that it's funny people ask you that question, well, didn't you

just convert your addiction to your podcast? And it's such a simplistic question because what you've done is, you know, you you have this rich drive for varied, novel exciting and challenging experiences. You know, this is this probably showed up very early in your life, you know, and and you've you've now integrated that and accepted it into something

that's causing greater service to society than drinking alcohol. But you know it's couldn't one frame the story in a similar way and say, you just you've always had this yearning for the psychologically rich life, and and now you're integrating it more with your drive to contribute positively to the world. It's just become it's just become more well integrated. But it's it's couldn't that be part of the story. Yeah, I mean I love that version of the story. I'll

take that version of the story. That sounds good to me. I mean, I think trying to Yeah, you know, it goes back to it's it's all been, you know, a slow journey of imperfect growth, and there's little inflection points along the way where I decide to start something new

or do something different. But you know, it's peppered with me being identified as a certain type of person, like you're a lawyer, you're a swimmer, you're an alcoholic, you're you're a vegan triathlete now, And that was one I was terrified of being pigeonholed as especially you know, as a vocation. It's like there's a shelf life on being

a competitive athlete. You know, I'm interested in other things and the things that I learned in health and nutrition and fitness and endurance and the like are just a part of who I am, and I wanted to continue that trajectory, and the podcast is a reflection of that. It's a dynamic, you know, living, breathing thing that's always changing and as you know, as a mirror into like what I happen to be interested in at the time or what I'm struggling with at the time. That's exactly right.

I think the really wonderings why identify how I see it in you is because identify it with it, you know. It's why I love doing a podcast as well. And some people might say, like the psychology it's so general, you know, like why didn't you pick like why don't you put one specific thing like the psychology of And it's because, well, I want to live a psychologically ritual

life and that's just who I am, you know. I choose that over just picking one narrow thing and going in great depth, you know, you know, becoming more of a generalist and just ravenous curiosity. So I just see

that in you as well. And I think the more that people can just accept that within themselves and not feel like they need to almost be an apologist for it, like I feel like you shouldn't have to be an apologist, and and what someone might do as an apologist is start to create narratives about themselves that almost are an apology kind of narrative, you know what I mean, Like like someone might I'm not saying you've done this necessarily, but you do see this sometimes in the desire to

conform to society's expectation or of what's normal or what one should be. Sometimes people you know, sorry, well you know, I yeah, I know that I suffered from all this, and I regretful of those days as opposed say, well, no, those days were actually really important early understanding of some seeds of who I actually am, you know, like sorry, not sorry, you know, right, Yeah, I think it's a very it's I think it's a very common struggle. You know.

I think we live in a world in which social expectation and external validation and keeping up with the joneses are all like incredibly powerful forces that drive people's decisions, some of which are you know, really critical life decisions. Which career am I going to pursue? Where am I going to live? What you know kind of you know, where what is where I'm going to live? You know

what does the house look like? And I'm going to live like These things instead of being motivated by some interconnected awareness of what works for you, are really a function of what everybody else is doing. Absolutely so well, You've carved this, this unique path for yourself. And I always want to read an Abraham masm quote to you that I think you'll really like. I think we'll mutually geek out over this. He wrote, one can choose to go back toward safety or forward toward growth. Growth must

be chosen, Growth must be chosen again and again. Fear must be overcome again and again. That's the quote, the Maswell quote, and that was the basis for my revised hiercheve needs because you know how, you know how, the static triangle or the how is usually present. He never drew a triangle, He never drew a pyramid. He always made the case that life was a two step forward, one step back, dynamic. Life wasn't like a video game where you reach, oh, I've got that sorted, and now

I'm going to go to the next level. You know, you always have to choose growth. And I just thought that would resonate with you because it seems at the heart of a lot of your writings. Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, choosing growth is a daily struggle, like who wants to grow? I mean, you know, I've just had I've had enough of it, so I have a taste of how much better my life is when I when I recommit to it. But that doesn't mean

that it gets any easier. And in fact, you know, I remember when I was newly sober, somebody said to me, you know, like, oh, the road narrows, and I didn't know what that meant, like, oh, you know, you can't once you get sober, okay, you get rid of the drugs and alcohol, but like, now you can't do this, and now you can't do like your life consistently gets stripped away because you become more aware of the things in your life that don't serve you and then you're

asked to step up and address those and it's a never ending process and you know, it's relentless, and sometimes you know, I just want to watch Netflix, like I don't, you know, I don't want to deal with it, and that's the and that's okay too, right Like and then then there's like, oh, well, are you willing to forgive yourself, like you know, it's a constant process that I think we all grapple with in our own way, you know. I mean, you've become an inspirational figure, whether or not

you set out to or you want to be. You know, the objective fact, no I read you know, you sent me your new book, and I've been devouring it. I've been reading it on the beach here Instem and it's you know, looking at the sunsets and inspire you know, I got all the additional things an addition of reading your book that that inspire me, you know, and I try to you know, I listened to like meditative music.

So all these things are happening once. But but reading the content of the book and the stories that you've highlighted that are not stories about yourself, but you're you're transcending yourself by telling other people's stories, a lot of stories. You have said that what excites you the most is telling the stories of those who have not been heard before. You know, the underdog in a lot of ways. Right, So that's self, that sort of self transcendent motive that

you have is is part of you as well. There is that there is that motive as well, where do you where do you think that you know? At what point? Like? When when did you? When did you? Because to me, that's the third transformation that I see. Remember we start off this whole podcast and I said, I see actually at least three major trans the third one I want

to really zoom in on right now. It seems like you are entering more of this generative stage in the Ericsson model of human development, and the generative stage where you're mastery. You're not so obsessed with mastery anymore, you know, that seemed to be transitioned to right. Transition three tends to be more of wanting to tell other people's stories. But how do you see it? This is just how I see it, But I want to hear how you

see it. Yeah, I mean I think that's fair. You know, the podcast is such a fantastic medium for sharing other people's stories, and you know, it was a medium that I got interested in. You know, I was a very early adopter as a consumer of podcasts when I was training for these races and would have to spend unbelievable amounts of time, you know, alone and couldn't listen to music all that time in an era where it was

tricky to get put. You had to download them on your desktop and bounce them to your MP three player, like you had to be very intentional about it. But I fell in love with long form conversation at this same time, as you know, my investment in alcoholics anonymous was growing, where I would sit in these rooms and listen to people share their stories with extreme courage and vulnerability to an audience of people who would then embrace them.

And it's really a transformative experience with being bearing witness to that and then being asked to do it yourself. And so I think, you know, I wanted to give people who aren't part of that community a taste of what that feels like. I wanted to be more expressive of that ethos in my own life and celebrate, you know, celebrate you know, people who, like you said, have incredible stories that I think are really empowering and inspiring that aren't you know, as well heard or understood as as

I think they should be. And not make it about me, you know, it's not. It's not about me, but it is about what I can hopefully facilitate in that person. And it's about me in that I'm selecting these people and there's a reason, you know that I'm making that choice, and there's something that I want to learn from that person as well. So I straddle this line between you know, this figure that people look to for you know, I don't.

I don't consider myself an inspirational figure. I think it's more there's there's an aspirational aspect to it, and that comes from people being able to identify some aspect of themselves and me, Like when you look at Lebron James, he's inspirational, he's not, but he's not aspirational because you're never gonna you can't connect with that guy because he's he's just so much better than everybody else, you know, at what he does that you know, there's a barrier

I think that comes up. You can't emotionally connect with that, and I'm trying to connect you well, So what I'm saying is, yeah, I'm the I'm in between, right, Like I've done some interesting things that that that that you know in the athletic world or other things that people are like, wow, how'd you do that? But I'm not so advanced in that that people can't see some aspect

of themselves in their own struggles. So like when I went I was very aware of that when I wrote Finding Ultra, like, I, you know, I'm not an Olympic athlete. I've never you know, I've never even won a big race. My story connected with people because I was willing to be honest and vulnerable about stuff that's like kind of scary to talk about and bring people in on this journey with me. And so in that regard, I'm more

of a guide. Like I'm not the guy at the top of the mountain saying here's how you do it. I'm saying, hey, man, I figured out a few things I'm still trying to learn, Like come along with me, and like let's learn. Let's learn these things together. Oh for sure, that's what kind of said. Whether you want

it or not, you're you're inspiring figure you. That's why I added that nuance when I was when I was saying this, you know, or whether or not it was intentional or not, you know, but you're living by example inspires a lot of people. One thing that's really inspirational people is the fact that you can accomplish such seemingly impossible feats of athleticism and you've talked about almost the mundanity of it. How mundane you know, it's all about

taking little, tiny steps. And you made me think of this great article by the sociologist William Chambliss, on which I emailed you a right before this chat, called the Mundanity of Excellence, an ethnographic report on stratification and Olympic swimmers. My colleague Angela Duckworth, who studies grit this is our favorite paper. Like, we always talk about this paper, and we actually emailed William Chambliss and we're like, how's your

paper not more well known? And I think you're gonna love it when you read it, because it seems to dovetail so nicely with your own process of accomplishing what seems to be so broad. So for instance, in training for an Ironman triathlon, you've said, you know, you think, okay, I'm going to have to get in the water, and then once I'm in the water, then I'm gonna take a lap. You know, but you see, one thing follows another, right, and this seems to dovetail nicely with the Chambliss's work.

What are your thoughts about this? Yeah, I think that that all great things are made brick by brick. And we're in a culture where we all want the overnight success and we want to expedite our way to the result, and the focus is so much on the endpoint, and there's not any appreciation for the journey or the hard, wrought like road that you have to trudge to achieve

anything exceptional. And in my own life, everything that I've been able to be successful at was really something that started very humbly and that I showed up for every single day, fell in love with the process of the building of it, not overly focused with the end point of where it was headed. And you know, you wake up a decade later and it's a thing. You know.

But I said this, I've said this before. I did a tweet about it recently as well, that most people, I think are very poor predictors of the timeline required to do anything exceptional. Like I think we wildly overestimate what we can do in a year and wildly underestimate what we can do in a decade. And I look at things in decade terms and then I forget about it and I just focus on what the thing in front of me is to do. So if you're running

an ultra marathon and you're running out of gas. You got to break it down into the tiniest pieces, one step in front of another. Or you wake up in the morning and you don't want to get out of bed and go outside and do the run. Just sit up, you know, Okay, I sat up. Now, put your feet on the ground, you know. Just break it down into the tiniest little pieces, you know. I'm on five hundred and sixty some odd podcasts at this point, on a

show that I started eight years ago. But when I began it, I didn't know if i'd do a second episode. I was doing it for fun, and then I found it to be creatively fulfilling and wanted to do it again. So it's really been a function of following my curiosity and just being in love with the doing rather than the you know, the results of the doing, and it's detaching emotionally, being detached from those results. I think that

is something that we don't spend enough time focusing on. Yeah, I would almost say that you're you're really enjoy the becoming even more than the doing, but I guess that's just a matter of semantics. You've inspired me to. This is my third week as a vegan. Oh nice, isn't that? It's crazy? Right? Like very cool? I said, you know, well, if Fritz can do it, you know, like, let me give it a try, you know, let me give it

a try. How's it going since my third week? I get what I've done is I get delivery from Trifecta Nutrition, just the vegan plan and one hundred percent. I've changed my whole plan from because I do meal delivery, because I have Celiac, so I think eglod in free anyway, But I said, you know what, change it? I said, I called them up. I said, you know what ritual I learned, I learned about this stuff. Just change it all to vegan and I so, what are my thoughts

about it? In week three? Well, I've cheated a couple of times, and we'll be honest. I love making cheese with nachos, So I kind of cheated once or twice, but I would say I had more energy. I definitely feel like I have more energy. It is good. Yeah, my head feels my head it feels lots cloudy, which is good. You know. So I want to see I want to see what I can do. I want to see give it. I want to give it a go for three months at least. What do you what do you?

What are your suggestions for me? I think that's great. Yeah, give it a go, give it an honest go, and don't beat yourself up for those little missteps, you know. I think it's like you said with Maslow, It's like, this is not a linear thing. I think a lot of people with any kind of diet, you know, they have a weak moment and then they just you know, abandon the whole thing. So just use it as a learning experience to adjust and pay attention to how your

body feels and figure it out. I think these these transitions take time, like your gut microbiome has to adjust to you know, a difference in the kind of foods that you're eating and all that kind of stuff. And just be patient with it. But I'm excited and I'm a resource, So feel for to reach out to me if you have questions. Thank you so much. That doesn't mean a lot to me. I'm excited too. I do get excited by these by new things as well, you know, like like extreme things. I'm an all in kind of

guy too, brother, So yeah, I hear you. My last question for today. At one point you had said your motto is mood follows action. I was wondering, do you have a new motto for the for this moment today, the very very end of twenty twenty, perhaps one of the worst years in human history. Do I have a new motto? I don't know that I have a new motto.

I think you know a good one right now, because we're measuring this year against our expectations of what we thought it should be, and we're starting to think about the new year and what we want that to look like. And my suggestion is to like let it go, man Like, let it go. Like in so many ways we're being forced to surrender, and it's uncomfortable. You know this, that we don't have the level of control over you know, so many things is like an epiphany for a lot

of people. Right We delude ourselves into thinking we we have exigency over so many things that we actually don't. And I think this year made that made a lot of us very presently aware of that fact. So whatever expectations you have, whether it's when am I going to you know, things getting back to normal, or what the new administration is going to hearken, Like you know, I would just let it all go and focus on controlling

the controllables. And those controllables are very few. They're what you put in your mouth, the thoughts that you entertain, and what comes out of your mouth. Basically like how are you going to behave? Are you going to react to everything? Or are you going to mindfully respond? And again it goes back to being in the moment, like what is the next right thing for you to do? And the more present we can be, I think, the more the better equipped we are to navigate whatever the

new year shros itous. Oh that what a perfect way to end not this only this podcast, but also this year. Rich. Really cool, really really cool. I really admire you and I look forward to constiting the discussion seriously. Thank you man. It was great, and I look forward to doing the podcast with YouTube when it's time. It's right. Sounds good, Rich, I really look forward to that. All right, We'll have a have a good one and happy New Year yourself

as well. Enjoy your holiday. Great cool, all right, Scott, thanks brothering, thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard. I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Also, please add a reading and review of the podcast on iTunes and subscribe to the Psychology Podcast YouTube channel, as we're really trying to increase

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