Aaron Rabinowitz & Callie Wright || What We Get Wrong About Transgender People

this podcast. In this series, we try to make sense of the distinction between sex and gender and cover trans issues in a very thoughtful and nuanced fashion. We have balanced discussions from multiple perspectives, including scientists, activists, and a leading feminism scholar. This series will hopefully expand your mind and help you make sense of the current heated debates surrounding the distinctions between sex and gender as well as

transgender issues. The aim is to turn down the temperature on this very heated topic and in increase understanding and integrate truth with love. I hope you will listen to this entire series with an open mind and an open heart, and as always, we look forward to hearing your feedback and comments on our website and on the YouTube channel. So that further ado, I bring you this episode within the Making Sense of Sex and Gender series. Today, we

welcome Aaron Rabinowitz and Calli Wright to the podcast. Aaron is a lecturer in philosophy at Rutgers University. He hosts the Embrace the Void and Philosophers and Space podcasts. He specializes in ethics, meta ethics, and problems surrounding AI and personhood. He earned his MA in philosophy from Colorado State University. Calli is a freelance audio producer and the host of the Queer Spleening podcast. They are a non binary trans person. In this episode, I talk to Aaron and Kelly about

gender and trans issues. When it comes to transgendered folk, we tend to focus on extreme examples that are are far removed from reality. Some people think being transgender is entirely a social contagent, while others reject the reality of gender altogether. Calli shares how transitioning has allowed them to become their most authentic self. Aaron sheds light on the

issues of consent, autonomy, identity, and medical ethics. Both Cali and Aaron recognize that specific topics can negatively skew public opinion, which is why addressing misconceptions and highlighting the lived experiences of trans men, women, and non binary individuals are crucial to the conversation. So, without further ado, I bring you Aaron and Calli. I'm really glad to welcome Aaron and Calli on the show today. Thanks for coming on the

Psychology Podcast. Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks so much. Now, look, I want to say I enter this conversation with all the humility in the world because there's so much I'm trying to understand about this swamp of a discussion and all these topics and you know, and what are all the I' hoping you too will teach me today? One of the most triggering things I could you know, people could say things to like foster conversation without triggering people,

you know, And how can this be productive? So if I do say anything stupid today, please please correct me and let me know what I have done wrong because it is unintentional. Yeah, that's aught. We could start with both of you interest introducing yourselves and telling me what are you all about? Why do you interest in the kind of things that you're interested in? Okay, Yeah, so I'm Cali I'm a non binary trains person. I guess that.

You know, I don't normally introduce myself that way, but that's like relevant to the discussion that we're having, so figure it makes sense to just kind of like name the position that I'm in socially here. I just turned thirty eight. I've been making podcasts for like ten years or so, and I kind of have a knack for communicating with folks and helping folks understand things and something that I seem to kind of have the capacity to do.

So I like having these sorts of conversations where people are engaging in good faith because I think, I mean, there's lots of unknowns about trans folks, right, Like the convert the broader mainstream conversation around trans people is still relatively new, and there's a lot of people very invested in spreading misinformation and disinformation about trans folks and like what that life experience is, like what it even means and that kind of stuff, And you know, people who

engage in good and bad faith. I just I tend to not mess with that because it's frustrating and rarely bears fruit. But people engaging in good faith, like I think it's important to just talk to folks and let people know, like this, this is what the real thing is, because I think part of the reason that the propaganda against trans people has been so effective is that there's basically there's just like a void of information that people are filling as opposed to, you know, like a well

understood cultural idea that people are trying to change. It's just like you start with a question mark and then you get to fill it in with whatever you want. And people tend to be a little biased, I think towards like the first thing that they hear about something, and so like it just creates this uphill battle for us, and so I like to I enjoy having conversations like these because of that. Cool and Aaron, introduce yourself before

I start with a bit of questions. Sure, yeah, so I since we're laying all of our identity cards on the table, right, I'm assis hit half Jewish passing white dude. I you know, come from like a fairly boring middle class background, and you know, got very interested in philosophy from an early age, even before I knew that that was what it was. And I'm into a lot of things I won't list all of the weird things that I spend my time on, but this sort of common

theme is moral education. Like Callie, I really enjoy communicating ideas to people, and especially I've found that I really enjoy teaching about ethics and helping people think through really complicated ethical topics. I find that a lot of the folks that I talked to have never gotten any kind

of proper moral education. Either they got like a religious upbringing, or they got you know, whatever secular culture has for moral education these days, which is almost nothing, and so they just feelt feel like they have any of the language that they would need to deal with a lot of issues. So it's a real fun experience. I'm particularly

obsessed with the issue of luck. And that's the only time I'll say that word that hopefully in the next hour, because I just spent the past Yeah, I writing about it.

For qual examples, conspiracy theories, especially anti Semitic conspiracism, is something I'm very interested in, and you know, misinformation in general, and also ethics leads to you know, concern about things like LGBTQ rights obviously, but also I come from a lifetime theater background, so I grew up even though I'm sis around a lot of individuals who were gender nonconforming

before we knew what that word meant. And like, I know multiple people who have vastly more than the like normal average people who have transitioned from living in theater

or who are in some ways non binary. I care a lot about them and their experiences, and you know, I think it's really important to make sure that they are getting what they need in this world, while also you know, addressing the concerns of people who, like CALLI said, are coming to this new and fresh, because you know, you mentioned at the beginning that like you're you know, call you out if you get anything wrong, like everybody

gets things wrong. I have misgendered people. I still missgender people. I probably sometimes accidentally miss gender Callie, because it's just, you know, we we do these things and friends with each other. So that's that's awesome, right, And the important thing is that you don't do it intentionally. You recognize when you've done it, you acknowledge it, you apologize, or you'd get better at it because you become more aware.

I've just switched us. I use they more and more frequently with individuals unless they specifically ask otherwise just because it's it's functional to some degree. But yeah, I care about this for a lot of different reasons, and yeah, I'm happy to chat about you know, I also think it's really important to like try to turn down the temperature on this conversation while also taking seriously the you know,

the various challenges that trans individuals are facing. I want to talk about genuine concerns about treatment, especially in for profit systems stuff like that. So let me start off CALLI just understanding you a little bit more and your interest in this topic personally, I want to learn more about your own personal experiences. So what sex were you

identified at birth? I was assigned male at birth, and I guess I'll just say, like it's an important thing to know that, Like I am super super open to having those kinds of discussions. Not all trans folks are so,

but yeah, I was. I was assigned mail at birth when I was twenty eight ish, so actually coming up on ten years or so ago, I you know, I just figured out for sure that that wasn't what felt correct to me in terms of the way other people treated me, in terms of you know, whatever messaging I got about like what that is supposed to mean for a person's life, Like, none of that made sense to me, And I had not really met or been exposed to

the idea of non binary folks. And so I think what was going on at the time This wasn't explicitly what I was thinking, but I think what was happening was like, Okay, well this box doesn't feel great, so of course the logical thing is to like jump into the other box. And so and so I came out.

She her trans woman, and you know, there's there's an interesting social pressure that can happen when when you come out in that way, because often you end up feeling very pressured to immediately jump into all of the other gendered stereotypes. And there's like a super deep discussion to have about gatekeeping even within the trans community, and the idea of respectability politics that like people are only going to take you seriously if you try your best to

like look and act quote unquote normal. And I think I was feeling a lot of that pressure. And then maybe four five ish, I don't what's time anymore. I just started to figure out that like gender neutral seemed to be the thing that actually resonated the most with me. And so that's the short version of how I came to be where I am been taking hormones for eightish years.

I had bottom surgery six years ago, so I had a vaginoplasty, and you know, both of those things are you know, easily in the top five of the best things that I've ever done for my own Like comfort with my body, the way that I relate to people, like romantically, intimately, sexually, all of that sort of stuff. And you know, I feel like, approaching forty, I'm kind of comfortable in the ways that I see most folks.

I guess if there's an average of like, I'm generally okay with who I am as a person, except being the I guess, quote unquote normal adult problems. I feel like approaching forty, I'm finally like there in life, having gone through all of that and figured all of that out. There's a lot of other things that I don't think are directly related to being trans, but have sort of come as a result of things that I've learned along

that journey. Polyamory, non monogamy, being very open about being a very sexual person, being very open about I mean almost being a hedonist. I guess if that's the way

to go. To be clear, Like, none of those things are explicitly connected to being trans, but in doing a lot of the unpacking about the things that I've learned about gender and you know, the things that make me feel the most comfortable versus the societal messaging that I got growing up about what's correct and what's not correct, sort of unpacking what was what in my head for that and figuring out where I sat, Like a lot of that was sort of like a secondary journey and

figuring out gender stuff for me, It just led me to unpack so many other things about my life. And yeah, so that's that's kind of what what's got me here. Thank you for that. So within the trans community, I don't know the statistics, so maybe can inform me is non binary trans in the minariti? I would assume it is? But is that correct? What do we know? Sort of are you kind of marginalized even within or the minority, even within and already existing minoriti? Yeah, I think that's

probably true. I don't know that there are actually good statistics about that to be able to say for sure, but I think anecdotally I would say probably that's the case. Just based on my own experience and the experiences of folks that I know and have heard talk about it, I would say that's probably true. Cool. So my research topic is self actualization, and so I'm all about helping people in any which way they can possibly be to feel as though they're able to live their most self

action life. Do you feel like the decisions you've made in your life have allowed you to have more alignment between multiple areas of your life and multiplayers within you as well. You know, the idea of alignment, you know, within a self actualization context is about you're aligned with your environment, You're aligned and internally you're aligned with how you see yourself. There's there's a hundred ways we can talk about in alignment. But do you feel like you're

maximizingly solving for x X being alignment? Yeah. Honestly, at this point in my life, I feel like, aside from mostly unconnected like mental health problem is like, I'm a pretty anxious person. And I think some of that is sort of the like the low grade trauma of like going through your life being very different from the people around you. I think some of some of the anxiety comes from that, but I also think some of it is maybe inherent to who I am, and so like,

there's little things like that that I'm working out. But in terms of feeling like I am the most actualized version of myself, I am one hundred percent there, And I think the things that got me the most I shouldn't say one hundred percent there. I've never met anyone in my life who said that, So I'm like, well, as close to one hundred percent, we need to study you more closely. Yeah, as close to one hundred percent

there as I think someone could reasonably be. Wow, the ways in which I'm trying to figure myself out now feel pretty average. Like if I'm talking to the people around me about the things that I'm trying to figure out my life and the way that I relate to the world, I don't feel like those struggles for me

are outsized in comparison to the average person. The way that I used to and what got me most of the way there each time, was was figuring things out around gender and then secondarily to that, figuring out the way that relationships make sense to do to me, Like I'm I'm kind of a relationship anarchist and that's like a whole other discuss but the general thing is that I'm polyamorous, and I have romantic and sexual relationships to

varying degrees with other people, and there's no like hierarchy within that. I don't have like a primary secondary partner or anything like that. And I think all of those things, kind of put together, have put me in the place where I feel I feel I've arrived at being mostly average in terms of the problems that I have along those lines with like self realization. Wow, you're like everything that Matt Walsh stands against, like his uh pretty much

probably would explode hearing everything. Not just I don't mean to just pick on one person, but let's say like the Christian right, you know, like or any set of humans groups who are committed to as traditional you know, as can be, would hear a lot of what you just said in their heads will just explode. My avatar for that is my very very Pentecostal grandma. I was

her favorite grandkid growing up. And then once I started down this journey, it was basically like every time I took a step towards like, oh, this is a thing that makes me feel good about my life was like a step into something that she absolutely unequivocally hated, and that's like a different pain point. And I'm lucky and that there's I've only had two relationships like flame out like that over gender stuff. But yeah, that's that's pretty much.

That's pretty accurate. Yeah, and I want to explain why I think that's a little relevant. And don't worry, Aaron, we will get you into the don't feel excluded, it's okay. I also am hated by the right for many similar reasons. I don't feel left out. We'll bring you in this second.

But I think this is irrelevant because these kinds of conversations are so hard to have as a scientist because you start to realize pretty soon that everyone's kind of committed to a certain ideology that it's almost like once you start pushing it enough, even if you start saying

some things there. I'll give you a stick example because I did see a talk at where someone challenged Matt Walsh on talkie gave and they said, well, actually, the statistics you just said are not true, Like, let me tell you about some scientific findings, and they kept pushing and pushing, pushing, and it finally got to the point where Matt just simply said, you know what, I don't

give a shit about your scientific findings. There's never any scientific finding that will convince me that it's okay to be trans. And I thought that was revealing. Look, I thought that was revealing. And I'm sure there are instances that a lot of people can point me to where they say, well, we see that among the trans community as well, where if you try to give them some science, they'll say, well, okay. At the end of the day, I don't really care. There's no nothing in the world

that convinced me that a trans woman is not a woman. Yeah, I don't know. I would push back a little bit against that because for me, it's I mean, it's literally

just my everyday life, right. It's not really a matter of ideology as much as it's a matter of like these like, this is the life that I live and who I am as a person, and I'm I'm not sure that it's possible for there to be science to convince me that I should I should have a different experience of my life and the way that I relate to the world that I do, right, And I think that's a lot of times where the conversation gets lost is like, like, I mean, what what scientific information are

we even looking for when we talk? Because I think it's it's easy to throw out terms like science and biology and that kind of stuff, But the question I think really is like what are we looking for in that right? Because I can tell you that everything about my life and my emotional wellbeing feels better when I'm on hormones versus when I'm not, or when I wasn't. Everything about my intimate sexual life feels better post bottom

surgery than it did before. So like, I'm not even sure how you would apply science to say that those statements could be wrong, you know what I mean? Like, I don't even think it's necessarily the right framing if I can piggyback on that, like I do think there are like two kinds of things where people can either disagree or agree, and one of them is like empirical claims. You know, what are the effects of puberty blockers? You know what? You know how to what degree are they

quote unquote reversible or not? Those are empirical debates for. But then there are philosophical debates, moral debates about you know, what is the right ethical balance for informed consent for miners. What is what is a woman? Right? That's not a scientific question. You can say what is a biological female might be a scientific question, but the idea of what is a woman in the gendered sense is a philosophical debate that involves social constructs and a bunch of complex issues.

And so don't I don't think you could build a machine that could answer the question what is you know, what truly actually is the essence of a woman? I think that's sort of point part of the point, right of like the second wave of feminism and so, but I also think that, like, it's not true that everybody is Matt Walsh. I think most people actually aren't Matt Walsh. I think Matt Walsh a particularly extreme, you know, zealadous person.

I think if you came to Cali or I with a study that said, look, here are really, really really severe harms from using puberty blockers, that we would take that seriously. It'd be part of our ethical calculus in assessing what is the right treatment. We might still think that the right treatment ultimately is going to be a decision between patient and doctor. But it's not like we're going to be you know, totally in denial about it.

There are certain people who will say things that I think get towards science denial about you know, the difference between post pubescent bodies or the role of distosterone, stuff like that, where I think that there's some some like wishful thinking on the science side of things. But I think for the most part, activists and non activists mostly just want people to have a good quality of life, and they want them to get there by not being sort of duped or or you know, sucked into something

that isn't true. But like, we don't really have a perfect grasp on issues like gender and sexuality. We're still learning about these things quite a bit. And the part of the way that we learn about it in a liberal society is that we let people live their lives in a way that might seem like it's harmful to them from our perspective, but we think that they should be you know, free to harm themselves in those ways,

and that could even be true for under individuals. Sometimes. Well, that's very controversial, and I think where the discussion often goes as straight too is like this the weight that is given to certain questions, right because I think for a fair amount of people who have the conversation from the right wing side of things, when we talk about letting a trans kid be a trans kid, what they're thinking is surgery and hormones and puberty blockers and all

of that sort of stuff. What is actually happening most of the time is like a different haircut, a different toy, maybe different name and pronouns, different clothes, that kind of stuff, like stuff that you can literally just say words and change. Like that's what's happening most of the time, and anything else is in most cases already like you have to go through so many different hoops and so many different

barriers and gatekeepers to get any further than that. You know, I would never say, like there's no possible world in which we could have a conversation about uh, problems that are that are caused in that way. But like, if we're talking about the vast, vast majority of cases, like people are focusing on the thing that happens, to my knowledge, the least amount of the time, it's late term abortions.

It's just right, it's not the central concern. Yes, And in fact, I was going to make a similar point in distinguishing different talks of topics of conversations. And I wanted to kind of start with the most general, which is just having dignity and respect for people who say that they're trands. I mean, it's just the most basic sort of human dignity level without going with and I want to cover all the more niche topics later on. I refuse to be pulled into the deep end just yet.

But I refuse refuse. It's all deepend So just pick your all deepend Oh man, that's fair. Yeah, okay, let me just step back a second. I really like something that Aaron talks about a lot in his writings. I don't know I'm talkingalking about you, Like I said, you're not in the room right now. But there's I like something that you put in your writings at all, which is that you often talk about Look, do the benefits

outweigh the disadvantages? Okay, what really are the disadvantages? For Like, let's say someone who was identified at birth as a male decides that wearing dresses and asking people to call them their pronouns, she what is the disadvantage to us treating that person how they wish to be treated in a way that helps them feel self actualized in a way that feels they're their best they're living their best life.

I mean, who's that hurting what they're doing now? So I'm going to just ask that question, do do you see any disadvantages there? The most outsized harm that could come from that is actually the transphobia that person will experience from their peers, Like I don't. I don't think it's even something that is inherent to that person being trans. I think it's inherent to the cultural position in that transnis occupies. In a lot of places like That's it's

definitely changing. There are pockets where it's changing, and it turns out to not be that big of a deal. But I think if we're talking about the highest risk of harm coming to that person actually comes more from transphobia and gender essentialism than it does from any other thing, which is like, That's the conversation I ended up having

with my mom when I came out. She was like, I was like, I was so ready for all of the arguments that she was gonna like try to throw at me, and she was just like, you know, I just worry because like people are really mean, And I was like shit, that's the only one. I don't have anything because you're right, well, yeah, And the answer, of course is like, you're better off being who you are, and even if society mistreats you than hiding who you

are in that kind of way. I will, you know, I'll step in for the people who would object more strenuously and say, the real problem here is this is a social contagion. So this is the view of lot of gender critical individuals who believe that, like the substantial increase in people identifying in these kinds of ways is the result of a culture that is for in various ways, in doctrinating young individuals to think that they are trans, to think they you know, it makes them special, it

makes them popular, whatever. It's a weird kind of actually the exact opposite of what Kali was just saying there, which is that like this view that individuals can build up a bunch of social cred and capital by being trans or non binary, and like, you know, to be fully, fully honest, I believe there are spaces in our society now, you know, I think it's a good thing where being trans in these kind of ways will get you treated better in some ways than other individuals, and that's like

people trying to correct for all of the other mistreatment and all of the other places. I don't think it's ultimately what's going on. And I think very much like the concerns about gay panics before this, you know, the vast majority of individuals who are expressing these things are

you know, working through what they are genuinely feeling. They're not just trying to build social capital and that you know, what they're really concerned about is they're going to get so indoctrinated early on when they're just wearing dresses and getting haircuts that then they're going to want puberty blockers, which are going to sterilize them and have a bunch of other negative side effects, and then they're going to want surgery, and then they're going to be lifetime patients

at the you know, the whims of the financial you know, medical state essentially. That's the like, the most extreme concern that I see people presenting is that they think, genuinely some of them think that like giant billionaire transnationalists are like pushing the trans agenda for the sake of their own transhumanist goal and to get rich off of consumer body modification. That's the most extreme fear. Yeah, I chuckle

a little bit. The idea of gay panics, it's just from a many perspective, that's pure comedy to think like lavender panic is the correct term. I suppose it's like heterosexuals are suddenly panicking, Oh my gosh, I'm going to be become gay. Oh no, But I mean that doesn't tend to be the case. It tends to be that gay people are like, I'm gay, Like I know I'm gay. It's like, you know, I feel like that. The idea with trans folk, I notice you use the word transfolks.

I'm gona use the word that same phrase. It seems like transfolk seem to know that they're transplant, like they feel it inside them, and it's, uh, it's not something that and it happened tends to happen pretty early. And I know that that's that's controversial because people say, oh that there's this panic or this social contagion in the schools,

which is why it's early. But it could also just be that they people are starting to identify who they are earlier and and kind of recognize understand it more. That's that's an alternative hypothesis. Anyways, the idea of gay

panic is interesting. Yeah, it is a product of our society moving slightly in the direction of being affirming of trans folks, recognizing that we exist, and saying that like, whatever it is you need in pursuit of feeling okay is actually a positive for your life, right, Like society is in some ways at least moving in that direction.

And so, I mean, I think it makes a lot more sense that if you have a kid who is growing up in a far less oppressive environment around gender norms and stereotypes, that you're going to find kids are more likely to express the ways that they don't fit in with those kinds of with those kinds of stereotypes and boxes and stuff. And I think that just feels incredibly logical to me. And I think the fear that you're talking about, I think that's really what it is.

It's fear. And you know, there's a base cultural idea. I guess that you know, the idea that other people can live out gender dynamics in a way that I don't is somehow a threat to the way that I do things. That's like a very pervasive cultural idea, and I don't and I certainly don't want to paint like everyone in the trans community is somehow being beyond that, because I mean, I mentioned earlier, you know, the sort

of gatekeeping within the trans community. You know, it's like, I'm willing to be as progressive as it takes to get to the point where I'm okay, but anyone who goes outside of that box is the problem, right, And that's a sort of respectability politics you see play out in the trans community, where a transman a trans woman will do their best to appear outwardly to be sis and completely blend in. And anyone who doesn't do that is actually the reason why, you know, trans people can't

get the respect that we deserve in society. And so the problem is other trans people, not transphobia. And that's I mean, that's an entirely other tangent to go down.

But that is to say, I think it's a basic cultural idea that we sort of have baked into us growing up that and I do think that reaction is often based in fear, fear of that specifically, And when we say fear, I want to be careful because I think people when they hear oh, your actions are based in fear that's like a dismissive You're not being rational

and that's bad. It's not at all that. And when I talk about moral panics, you know, when I describe these, I really do try to emphasize I think the vast majority of people involved in a moral panic are concerned about something that's genuine, whether that's the well being of children or something there. They may have a disgust reaction towards trans individuals, but I don't think they are like

Matt Walsh for the most part. I think most of them are just genuinely worried that, like, you know, maybe doctors are pushing, you know, treatments on patients that they shouldn't be, or you know, their excesses, or not enough gatekeeping or something like that, and they're real concern is that they just want to make sure that, you know,

people aren't experiencing harms. One difference between the lavender panic and the anti trans panic is, you know, people will argue if you come out as gay when you're a teenager and you you know, are gay for a while and then realize you're straight, there's no irreversible medical treatments

that go along with that. Whereas you know, and this is why there's the big debate happening right now about the use of the word irreversible with puberty blockers, is that, like, there is a reality and there's a different ethical cost benefit analysis to be made when it involves medical treatments in this way. And that's why we need and we don't have good enough data about how many people are detransitioning or you know, desisting, or there's different debates about

the terminology all these kinds of things. And even if you know, I think Kelly and I probably both believe that like new data is mostly going to affirm that the vast majority of people are positively benefited from the treatment, and that much like any medical treatment, there are some people for whom this is not the ideal treatment, and

there may be some trade offs involved there. But I definitely think that it's reasonable to talk about gatekeeping and people not profiting off of the suffering of others, And then there's this whole unreasonable world that essentially is going to say I think people like Matt Walsh really have to get to a point where they enforce rigid heteronormativity, because if you're going to say no men, you know,

no biological men in women's restrooms. Right, You're gonna have to harass anybody who doesn't fit what is the accepted standard norm of what looks like a woman, And people like Kathleen Stock have acknowledged that. That means that, you know, non conforming lesbians are going to get harassed for using

restrooms stuff like that. So I don't see how their approach can can get what they want socially in terms of protections for women's spaces and things like that without rolling back way more than just puberty blockers for precubescent individuals. Something that makes this so much more complicated is that, like Aaron said, I agree with what Aaron said about like where the average person is probably coming from in

this conversation. And there is what the average person thinks, and then there are what the people who actually have the power to enforce those things think, right, Like the people, for example, in US government. Right, I don't actually think that most of those folks have that kind of genuine concern, Right, people like Matt Walsh, for example, He's obviously not a government person, but he's someone who has a lot of social power. Right, I think with a lot of things.

It's a calculated way to use their platform to push whatever they want to get from the culture war, to

try to political and moral agenda. Yeah, exactly. And that's what I think makes it so hard is because I do think the average person probably does have that sort of genuine, understandable concern, But the people who are actually passing these laws and affecting this change, I don't think really do like it adds an extra layer of complexity to trying to talk about these issues, because it's really easy if you're not super super specific, it's really easy

to substitute one group for another in the discussion. And for me, what I I'm usually talking about are the people who have power to actually change the way that I live my life, Like you know, my down the street neighbor, like QAnon conspiracy, Like I don't like that he thinks that way, but he doesn't really have any

power over me. And as long as he's not going to like come to my house and kill me, like do whatever you want, man, I don't care though, to be fair, there just today the Patriot one of the Patriots squad groups, was out in front of a drag

Queen story Hour that got canceled. If you want to talk about like escalating violence against trans community because of the panic there it is, I'll just bookend that with saying that's what makes it hard is because some people do end up usurping that kind of power that aren't necessarily lawmakers, but they take it upon themselves to threaten violence or even like threaten threatening with violence, like like a two steps removed, sort of like well, if these

people don't chill out, things are going to get bad. Like that's not a direct threat, but it kind of is a threat. And like those are the kind of like it's all of those things at once that we're all trying to navigate. I appreciate bringing up a lot of these examples. I've often found that we can be much easier to point to egregious errors among our our

group than within our own in group. So, just for the sake of nuance, are there instances where you think that some people within transactivists have gone too far in your eyes? Cali in a similar way that you could criticize the people that you just criticized. I'll give you one example. I read this tweet that said a note for parents if your child tells you that they are transgender. You have two choices, one have a trans child, to

have a dead child. It really is that simple. For so many of us, the ability to live authentically is a matter of life and death. When you read that sort of thing, it's not statistically true, but it seems to be exaggerating something in order to make a political point or to get more power within that community so that they can get the things that they want. How do you interpret it? I mean, it's a little hyperbolic,

but it's only a little hyperbolic. I think I don't know what the utility would be of like parsing out that and dissecting that, because I think hyperbole, especially on Twitter, is a thing that is kind of accepted. But also

sure it's not statistically true. Okay, I'm not sure that that really matters so much, because what they are pointing to is a very very real phenomenon in which, you know, there is a very very high percentage, comparatively high percentage of trans folks who either commit who die by suicide, or try to and then removed from that is the lifelong psychological and emotional trauma that can come from having family that don't affirm you and the and I don't

have the numbers in front of me, but you know, if you look at the mental health issues that as a whole the trans community deal with, like everything is compounded by having parents who don't affirm who you are. And that's not the same as saying your parents can't like ask you quest questions or have conversations with you. But if a parent is just gonna fundamentally deny who this kid is, I don't actually think that tweet is hyperbolic in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable, Like

I think it's obviously an exaggeration. I think basically anyone could see that, But I don't think it's an egregious one. Well, yeah, I mean I do the moral panic stuff. I often get people coming at me like, well, aren't there moral panics on the left? Is this a moral panic on

the left or that. I would say that sometimes the language around what we could call like transgenocide rhetoric does stray sometimes into that moral panic space in a similar way that I think some of the conversation around police shootings can can stray into that space and get farther away from I think the statistical reality then is actually helpful.

But I think what Cally's pointing to is the difficulty of assessing how much is that a real genuine moral panic when you're dealing with a marginalized community that is experiencing serious mistreatment, right if you know. For me, the concern about the overemphasis on police shootings is that it underemphasizes like the real statistical evidence of you know, significant mistreatment at different levels of you know, physical violence that

isn't just shootings. And similarly with the trans stuff, the focus on suicide, which look, there are higher rates of suicide, so it's not again there is a truth to this idea, but I think the focus on it is because it is particularly scary sounding, and we're just desperately trying to get people to accept their loved ones so that they

can be in healthy relationships. You know, would it be better if we focused more on you know, people who are alienated from their family members, people who experience depression and anxiety, and you know, all these sorts of other things that would probably be you know, potentially helpful. But I also think it's understandable why people point to the extreme but like sometimes common reality that people you know, get pushed towards hurting themselves because they don't see any

other way out. And I think the other thing to consider, too, is when you're quoting like things that people say. I think it's important to consider the power dynamics in play, right, because a person on Twitter being sort of hyperbolic does not have the same social cultural impact as someone like Matt Walls, who has millions of followers who like, we

know that his voice is very influential. People are going to believe what he says and that it's I think it's a lot easier to draw a line between something that he says and a material harm that ends up coming to people than someone tweeting something that's a little hyperbolic, like I think you would have a hard time drawing a line between that and a real world material that ends up coming to a person, then you would someone who has a large platform, someone who has a lot

of social cultural influence. I think there's a very clear difference in the power dynamics at play there. I think what you were asking for were examples where we feel like people take extreme positions, and I would say I'm not as concerned about that tweet, but I can give you examples. So I think claims empirical claims that there is no difference between men and women when it comes to sports biological men and women seems implausible to me.

We can have a debate about what fairness requires for trands athletes, but that has to take into account some of these other kinds of factors, and being kind of denialist about that, I think is not helpful to that discussion, even though I also think the sports stuff is ultimately a wedge issue, but other things are Like you know, there there was a person who argued for a little while that having genital preferences is anti trans or is transphobic. I do not believe that is the case. I do

not think that your genital preferences. That is not to say that you can have an interesting conversation about the ways that our sexual preferences are shaped by transphobia and racism and all these other kind of factors, But in and of itself, I do not think that having preferences for certain genitalia amongst your sexual partners is itself transphobic. And then there was let me say one other one

would be in the area of treatment. There are folks who believe that there should be no gatekeeping whatsoever for access to hormones or something like that. I lean towards thinking that it should be coupled with some amount of counseling. I think that arguing and like that one I'm very sympathetic to, because going back to Calli's point, when you're concerned that your gatekeepers by and large have a relatively anti transposition, it's reasonable to be against gatekeeping full stop.

But I think the ideal world would be one where individuals get appropriate counseling and help in making these kinds of decisions, and that they work through it in a step by step process in a way that like is an onerous for them, right, doesn't require them to, you know, act as if they are X for a certain amount

of years or something before they can get treatment. What ends up being problematic, I think, is that it always seems like we have to like there's so much nuance in all of this, right, and in order to lay out the full reality of the situation, you know, I mean, we're coming up on forty five minutes and we've barely scratched the stars. Sorry, but it's but it's so easy for people fighting against those things to ask gotcha questions

that seem very reasonable from the outside. And that's like, that's the hill that we are continually forced to climb, is that, you know, like we have to become experts on biology, on indochronology, on social and cultural issues of gender, Like we have to become experts on all of those things to be able to argue passionately with nuance, like just to get someone to the stage of like, hey, you know, I should be able to go like get hormones after an hour long doctor appointment, the way that

I might get treatment for the flu or something like that. You know, like that's there's a there's a very strong imbalance in that conversation, and I think that's something really important to name too. Yeah, I really appreciate. I appreciate when there are a nuanced discussion. I'm not really here to take much of a stance on most of this because I want to focus on your perspectives and your

point of views. But I will take one stance, and I think that that tweet I just read, I do see that as a moral panic of the same magnitude as moral panics you see on the other side. And and you can think of it from a perspective of a parent who, let's say that their five year old says their transgender and the parents says, you know, what do I do about this situation? What are my options?

I am an advocate of gender affirming care in the sense of having a team of psychologists, doctors, and parents who are all working together to help understand and help the child understand what's going on and what might be best for that child. But there's no one size fits all approach. And to say to a parent that their only options are have them betrands or you're going to have a dead child, that puts an awful lot of

pressure on an awful lot of people. I mean, I have sympathetic to your concern here, No, I mean I do think that, like I understand why some advocates use that kind of rhetoric. If I was talking to a parent, that would certainly not be the way that I would approach the conversation at all. It's kind of emotional blackmail, and I don't think that's what we should be doing here.

But I think, you know, the more reasonable version of that is the same conversation that people had to have with their families about being gay, which is like, this is who I am. You know, you can be loving and accepting or you can fight it. Now again, this goes back to the social contagion thing. If you're one of these parents who thinks that your child has been indoctrinated,

then you're in a different situation. But I also think I think the point of the tweet is essentially like, if you want your child to healthy and happy, be affirming of what they say they are, whether that means getting them a therapist or what. Like if you were if your response is that's not real, gender isn't real, you're a boy, shut up, like, yeah, you're probably going

to increase their risk of various psychological harms. A big problem that I see in the conversation often is like, you know, that's obviously the way the person words things in that tweet is not how I would approach the conversation either by any stretch of the imagination. And if somebody was saying that to me, like in a person a person thing, I'd be like, well, let's like, let's

take a step back for a second. But I also worry that like saying all of that, I'm not sure what is served by focusing so much on like a tweet like that, when I don't know that it in the grand scheme of things really matters well tonight, idea that I see propagated and among a lot of transactivists there is another option though, So this is you know, they present just two options, either firm that they're trans

or expect a dead child. But there is another option, which is an option a lot of the so called turfs are fighting for. And I wanted to get your thoughts on that option, which is saying, look, what's wrong with saying and teaching your child you are a boy, but you may have feminine interests and there's nothing wrong

with that whatsoever. You should go your whole life, you know, being you know, fighting for the right to be a non typical of your of gender stereotypes and fighting gender stereotypes. So how would you react to someone who says, well, that's a that could be a valid option. My first response is to wonder if that person actually believes that right, because those are the same people saying that, like I know who belongs in what bathroom by looking at them.

So when that kid grows up and says like, yes, I'm a boy, but I like to wear dresses, but I go into the boys bathroom, I'm wearing a dress, Like, how is that person going to react in real life? And that's always my first question is when people say something like that. In all reality, that is the world that I would love to end up in, where people grow up free of pressure regarding gender roles of any kind. But I don't. I also don't believe that those folks

genuinely think that. Rit large because their behavior towards trans people,

I don't think demonstrates that they actually think that. And let me just add, like, you know, to me, it's indistinguishable from saying, oh, well, no, Timmy's not gay, he's just you know, different, he's just he just likes theater and you know, dance and stuff like that or something right like maybe, but like if he's actually gay, then he's gay and you shouldn't try to say, you know, being gay is wrong and God hates it and you

should try to be straight. And I think the difference is these people believe that there is such a thing as homosexuality, but they don't believe there's such a thing as transgender because they don't I don't think believe there's such a thing as gender, which I think is I think is just implausible because we live in a world constructed around gender, like not around biological sex, very clearly around gender and gender presentation. We're not, you know, checking

biological sex at bathrooms, we're checking gender presentation. So I think it's it's silly to sort of take the position that there's no such thing as gender, or no such thing as being transgender. So if that's, you know, if that's the view they're taking, that's false. And if the view is there is this thing, but it's harmful and you should avoid doing it, I think that's also false.

And there isn't sufficient evidence to support that either. And I think, you know, we don't like to some extent, we allow parents to be abusive towards their children if they're religious enough about it, and I think that's unfortunate. But I think for anyone who genuinely cares about your child, like telling them that they're just a feminine or they're just a lesbian or something like that to help try to dissuade them away from this thing that you think

is bad, is probably not helping them. I think that's probably projecting onto them parts of your own insecurities that aren't healthy, And I think there is a conversation pursuant to that that is valid to have and to say. You know, if a kid comes to you and says like, hey, I think I'm actually X, Y or Z, to say, Okay, what is it that makes you feel that way? Like, talk to me in depth and specifically about your feelings, like what are the things that make you feel that way?

And you might dig in and find that that's actually what the kid means. Right, Because regardless of what we learn at home, we also get a lot of ideas from the culture that we grow up in, especially when we start going to school, we start watching a lot of TV all of that sort of stuff. So you may find that someone's like, oh, I think I'm a girl because I want to wear dresses and that's what being a girl means to me in my five six seven year old view of what gender is. You may

uncover that and in that case like cool, whatever. But I think that's a very very different thing than saying no, actually you are this and here's why you think what you think you do. I think it's entirely valid to dig further into why people feel the way that they do. But that's a very different thing from saying no, you are this. So what does it feel like to be a man who is a trans woman, who's a legit trans woman, like to be a man identified as birth?

I should say, who is a trans woman? What is that? Because that feeling is not standardized. It's not like you take everyone who is a man identified at birth and identifies as trans woman and say what does that feel like? And they it's objectively all exactly the same characteristics and mental things. So what's confusing to me is it seems

like there's no standardization of that. And that's and so I'm trying to understand it's all legit, right, Like you would never say there's no there's like an illegitimate trans woman, right, you would never say such a thing. I mean unless someone legitimately says, like I call myself a trans woman because I think it's cool or because you know, my friends think it's like for like obviously disingenuous or dishonest reasons.

But like that's also just largely not a thing like we talked about before, is it Because there's a feeling of such a mismatch somehow this is how I see Sometimes, Yeah, I'll first give you the I guess, like the little bit of of my personal experience, and then I'll kind of zoom out a little bit to what I understand

talking to lots and lots of trans people. Over the course of however many years, for me, it was a very discreete sense that like in fifth grade, like ten eleven years old, when you start to get the sort of like basic sex edd conversations like your body is changing, here are the ways you can expect it to change. It may have started already, et cetera of those sorts of very basic puberty conversations. And I started to realize that, like I was uncomfortable during puberty in ways that a

lot of people were not. And you know, at first, it was just like, Okay, well, not everybody talks about these things. Maybe that's just you know, people are talking about those things because that's what the teacher told us about. And so now we're comfortable because we know that's like a common thing, right, Puberty is weird, because puberty is weird for basically everyone. And you know, over the course of however many years, I just kept having feelings that

like pointed me back in that direction. And sometimes, I would say most of the time, for me, it was that sort of visceral discomfort that we generally call gender dysphoria about not only my body, but also the way that I interact with the world, the way that other

people interact with me. And sometimes it was more euphoria that It's like, I get a lot of not just running away from the bad feelings, but chasing the good feelings in a way that says that our like the construction of gender that I was handed is not the one for me. It doesn't make sense to me. And embracing that is what led me to come out and

take all of the steps that I've taken. And I think there is you know, you ask a hundred different trains people, you're going to get a hundred different answers of you know, what they feel like that says to them, I am trans And I think that is what often makes the conversation difficult is because it is very subjective.

There is no one size fits all, there is no standard, and I think the journey, I think has to be just like coming to comfort with that and understanding that that's like the actual reality of it is is that there are so many different paths to get there, and sometimes it is that visceral discomfort that dysphoria. For a lot of people, it's understand like like, I don't I don't hate myself. I'm not uncomfortable, it's not I'm not suffering.

But my life gets so much better over here if I do these other things, if people treat me this way, if I do these sorts of things, And that's a lesser part of my experience, but I know lots of trans people here like that's actually how they figured it out, as they were more chasing euphoria than running away from dysphoria,

which was mostly what my experience was. Thank you for telling me about your experience a little bit, and can let me just follow up with this Aaron, and I really want to hear even more experiences, so people listening to this podcast, please reach out to me. I want to know what it feels like because I obviously am not a trans folk, but I want to know what it feels like to be a I want to know what that's like, and I really value and the dignity

of that. From a child development perspective, it's interesting because I see, you know, I think about five year old six year olds say they go to their their mom or they go to their friends. They say, let's say it's a boy, and the boy says, I am a girl because I like wearing dresses. That's all they say. Do you immediately legitimatize that? You could see a sense, you can see the argument from certain what they call turfs saying, well, we you know, feminists have been fighting

for so many years against such gender stereotypes. You can you can you can see that perspective in certain cases. So I'm just wondering what your thought is about that. I mean, that's just the entry to a conversation like

any other. I think, if you're trying to explain to a kid, like the way that society looks at things and the ways that that doesn't match with my values and sometimes even the ways that like that doesn't match with reality, I mean, I think that's just the opening to a bigger conversation about what gender looks like in society. Because if someone said specifically, I think I'm a girl because I like wearing dresses, I would be like, well, wearing dresses does not necessarily make you a girl. Is

that the only reason? Like, it's just an opening to talk more in depth about why they feel the way they do. I don't want to start going down the rabbit hole then what is a woman? I don't want to do that. But I find myself in the way that I think scientifically wanting to know where the lines are in some way, you know, like if it's not you know, okay, then what is it? Like Aaron gone, well, let me help you, Scott. You're you're your scientist. I'm

a philosopher. This is my job, right, Like, let's have a conversation about philosophy of gender for a second, and identity more broadly, because I think, you know, there is a concern that, well, if gender is or gender identity is subjective fundamentally, then we can't legislate it properly, or we can't you know, have social norms around it, or you know, like what even is it? And I understand that concern. It would be much nicer if we had a chart and we could just quantify all of this

stuff and it was very easy and functional. I don't think it's ever going to work that way, but I also want to highlight it doesn't work that way for any gender identities, right, like, what is it? You know? You could say, asked him question, what does it feel like to be black? What does it feel like to be gay? What does it feel like to be half Jewish? Right Like, I've never any I don't do any Jewish things. I have a Jewish cultural background. It's complicated. Right, So

all identities are, to use the technical term here, empty signifiers. Right. We have this concept, and we have various things that for us, we connect to that concept. So CALLI could potentially tell you things about what they associate with different kinds of gender or something like that, and those things are a mix of our own personal feelings, desires, intuitions, a mix of the way culture shapes are understanding around gender.

And it could certainly be the case that if you were living in like a really heavily patriarchal society, which to some extent we are, some amount of individuals could internalize that patriarchy and think that that means that they should be men or something like that. That is, that is I think part of the complexities of human psychology.

But I don't think you can solve this either by pretending that gender is fundamentally objective and quantifying it in some way or by throwing it out because it's too subjective. We need it in society. We have to have identities in these kinds of ways. We have to, and we have laws about race, we have laws about sexuality, even though like if you you know, if I claim that I'm gay or something like that, it's not like I

can prove it to anybody. There's no set of behaviors that I could engage in that would make it absolutely, one hundred percent true that I'm really definitely gay. So I don't I don't think there's a unique problem here for gender. I think it's okay that gender is fundamentally subjective in this kind of way. Can you explain to me then, why to explain to me the fundamental difference between that and why we don't allow racial identity changes. So a woman tried rachel something, and black women in

particular got very very upset at that. You know, there's like you can't just you know, you go through a whole life of oppression and kind of what it is to face us. And in a way, they were like the turfs of the transgender movement in a way, analogous turfs are demonized, whereas black women in that case are exalted, and we all kind of agree with them with their point. And so can you explain the difference to me between racial and daddy and gender daddy? Well, I think there's

no difference, is what I'm going to say. Right, Like, fundamentally gender and race are the same in this kind of way that if you identify as one of these things, you, I think fundamentally are that thing. Right. So, for example, I know people who are very very light skinned who identify as black, who are you know, accused of, you know, like not being actually black, even though they come from a black background or a black culture or something like that.

So there's always going to be this kind of gatekeeping around these identities. Now, you could make an argument potentially that in our current situation, what someone like Dola's. Let's assume for the sake of argument, that like Dolazol is one hundred percent genuine. It's not a con to I get the sense she is genuine. You know, she her whole life, she has really identified more with African American

community than like community. I think if she really truly is genuine, she should be allowed to identify as black. I just I think there's ultimately no value in forcing her not to. Certainly people can say I'm not going to you know, I'm gonna have difficulty respecting that, or something like that. But I think I think there is fun.

I think here's what I would say. Our goal should be a society where there are no imbalances of power or marginalization, such that an individual who wants to change their gender or sex or race or whatever can do so and it doesn't matter, Like it just doesn't matter. That's just they just get to play with a new identity. I'm very sort of identity anarchist in that kind of way. In our current reality, it's more complicated. But yeah, yeah, I mean I don't agree with that, but I mean

I respect your opinion. Right, isn't there something to be said that there's a great privilege there to be able to just say you are something. And there's someone who may have gone through twenty five years of like constant sort of systemic oppression due to certain immutial characteristics they were born with, So you can see it from the

other perspective as well. Right, Well, I think this is where I come in with like, I get the philosophy side of things, but the way that my brain works is so much more about like how, you know, how do these things actually end up playing out in real life? Because I think what's important to name is the sort of gatekeeping around certain kinds of identities and why that gatekeeping exists, because most of the time it's about a

perceived security in that in group. Right, Like, if I'm in a room with a bunch of other trans people, there is a level at which my transnist statistically is safer in that space than it might be if I was in a room where I was the only transperson, right, And that doesn't mean that everyone around me is a great person, but just like, on balance, I can be a little bit more comfortable in my transness if I'm in a room full of other trans people. And that's

where that sense of gatekeeping around identity comes in. And I think, you know, it's important to name in this conversation that, like, there isn't a black person here to speak from that perspective, and I don't think that we can meaningfully have that conversation without a person coming from that.

What matters, I think is there's a level of good faith that we have to take into account and people who are trying to sort of like usurp power or gain the sort of like coolness, like whatever perceived coolness they have from that, Like this is a big thing in like vocabulary that starts out on black Twitter, for example, being more widely adopted, and you know, at first it's this silly, unsophisticated internet language, and then when white people

decide it's cool, then it's fine. But it's like we invented it, right. And I think there is a difference in the cultural context between race and gender that I don't I'm very comfortable saying that difference exists such that

they are different problems. But I also am not enough of an expert on racial identity to be able to have like a super nuanced conversation about that, And so I don't, like, I think in a practical sense they are meaningfully different enough such as to not really belong in the same discussion, because that's just not really a thing you see in the trans community, like don't I don't know that I've ever met a trans person who is, like,

you know, I transitioned because there's some perceived benefit to me aside from comfort in my own body, in my own life. Right Like, I'm not gonna like, oh, I'm trans because that gives me some sort of social cred or some sort of social power that I didn't have before in a certain community. And I think in the cases where that happens, at least in my experience, you end up generally being able to suss that out pretty well just by like seeing how those folks behave and

the way that they talk. And so I don't know that even like gatekeeping around that identity is even the way to do it, right, Like, because if I suspected that, like in a hypothetical world where I thought someone was like faking being trans to get some perceived cultural benefit because they wanted to like run this nonprofit and get whatever power comes from that, right Like, there's not really any benefit to me like questioning that person's trans identity

where I can just be like, well, like you're saying and doing these things that tell me you haven't done the work. You don't actually understand the cultural context that all of this is happening in, and so you're not qualified for this. And I don't like have to litigate whether they're a real trans person or not, right, Like I just I think they are meaningfully separate discussions for

like all of those reasons. Well, the sports world relevant to this though, because a lot of people do accuse, you know, trans women of trying to gain the system in some way, and that you know, maybe that may be a moral panic, right that may be incorrect, could also be correct, you too, Tell me what the correct, what is correct? Tell me what is correct. I can speak to this because I play a contact sport. I

play roller derby, sport of gender non conforming individuals. From what I can tell in my wildest hypothetical world, I guess I could maybe see that happening. But the idea that someone would transition and take hormones and go through all of the other bullshit that trans people have to go through in life to pursue like living your life as a transperson, that someone would pursue that to to like get to the top of like, that's just a

really really silly idea to me. And also, you know, and maybe this this might be shaped by the sport that I play, because there are things about roller derby that say that like being physically stronger and bigger does not necessarily give you an advantage because of specific dynamics

about roller derby. But like, and I know this is anecdotal, but I just think of like all of the times physically smaller not necessarily stronger CIS women have absolutely rocked the shit out of me because they have a lower

center of gravity than you. Like, Yeah, Like in theory, I should be able to show up and just clean house, right if I had some sort of inborn advantage that was so big that I don't even belong in that space, right Like, I would imagine that I should be able to show up there and clean house, And like, that's just not what you see happening time and time again across all of the different sports that trans folks are allowed to play in, right, Like, it's just not a

thing you see. Transfolks don't generally dominate those sports that we're allowed to participate in. And the one case that it does happen is the one that can generates so much attention. Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting place. I do think there are like reasonable versions of a lot of the concerns that you're raising here, Scott, So I've listed

a couple of them. It could be the case for example, that trans and we're almost always only talking about trans women and women's sports because for the most part, nobody thinks that like trans men have any kind of substantial advantage. It could be the case that, like, nobody is actively trying to cheat, but they're still creating an unintentionally unfair situation. And that's an empirical question and an ethical question that

you have to parse as a society. What are the range of you know, acceptable differences that we want people to compete with, Like do we switch to you know, weight classes or something like that. Like, there are different debates to be had there on an applied level that I think are perfectly reasonable to have, especially once you've accepted that, like trans people are what they are and we're gonna let them live their lives while we also talk about the details of sports. Other things that I

think you've brought up that are genuine concerns aping identity stereotypes. Right, if this is really like someone who pretends to be, you know, a different race or something by adopting a bunch of stereotypes about them, then that would be a significant problem. That's been a long standing accusation against drag culture,

even before everybody got really concerned about trans culture. And I think, you know, it's complex because part of your identity is going to be tied to social expectations, and sometimes you're going to invert them and sometimes you're going to adopt them. Two other things would be threats to

people in safe spaces. So it's not just you know, we don't want them to be in there because we don't think they're women, but also like we're concerned that somebody might, you know, if it's subjective, they'll claim to be this so that they can get into a you know, a rape crisis center or something like that. Again, these

are vanishingly small. When when these do, when something like this does happen, it's incredibly rare and wouldn't be solved except by a really, really draconian alternative, where the solution is just I think, provide proper care. And then finally, like the stealing valor or advantage stuff, right, which are

slightly different. Right, There's one thing is future benefits. One thing is taking credit for being a member of a marginalized community, right, And I think you know, there can be some concerns there, but I also think it ultimately at the end of the day trying to police people out of these communities because you see, you know, marginalization status as a limited resource that can't be spread around

in this kind of way. More. I just don't think I understand understands the problem, but like I understand why people have these unfairness reactions, and it's worth coming to them and addressing them honestly, because not everyone's using them as a wedge issue. Even if Matt Walsh's my question with those things always ends up being, you know, if these are genuine fairness concerns, why do they only come up, or at least mostly only come up when trans people

enter the conversation. Right? The classic example that folks point to is Michael Phelps. I think it is objectively true that he has a biological advantage over other people in his sport, you know, because and specifically because his body naturally produces less of the chemical that makes your muscle

sore when when you exert them. Right, I forget the name of it, but I don't remember any large conversation about whether or not it was fair for him to participate in that sport because he had that biological chemical advantage over other people and you know, like I can every sort of perceived advantage that someone might like me might have in a sport that involves physicality, Like I can point to CIS women who have those same characteristics,

but there's not really been a large conversation around keeping those folks out of participation. And what it comes back to at the core is that people don't believe that trans identity is real. They don't think trans people exist,

that we're faking it somehow to gain some advantage. And you know, in some hypothetical world where being trans becomes no big deal and like there's not really any great hardship in life associated with being trans. I guess in theory, I could see someone like, yeah, let me let me you know, let me let me go do this so

I can so I can win at sports. But I just think, like, I think those concerns are plausible in some hypothetical world, in some hypothetical world that we are so far away from such that I'm like, I'm not even sure that it's a conversation that's worth spending a ton of time on. If that makes sense, Well, that's interesting. So do you think there's no debate to be had about whether at the most elite level of sports, we should let in trans folk. Do you think there's no

debate to be had there at all? No, I don't think there is. I think if we want to talk about what constitutes fairness in sport in a way that doesn't single out trans people, sure maybe, but that's just like, that's not the conversation that's being had because because like I don't I don't remember any of this being a concern until there started being conversation about chance people in sports. Right, Well, me, just I just had another example, right, you mentioned Michael Phelps.

You know, I remember when Michael Phelps was competing, there was like a very brief discussion about the fact that because he was an American, he got to use a one off swimsuit that like makes you know, gives you a slight advantage that costs twenty thousand million dollars or something like ridiculous amount of money for a swimsuit, and that's perfectly legal within the sport, even though everyone acknowledges that it gives some amount of advantage and that not

every you know, person coming to that competition has the same resources at their disposal for training, and all these other kinds of things, like the idea that sports is remotely fair is absurd. It's clearly driven by income and a variety of other factors. You know, if you want to start, like I think Callie's right, if you want to have a conversation about genuine fairness in sports, have a conversation about all of it and not just this

one tiny issue. Which look, if I think if you said we're going to allow trans women in women's sports at every level as openly as we can, you would see a tiny number of individuals competing and they would have not a significant impact. But there's also a stupid catch twenty two here, which is trans women in sports end up having like meaning in this place where if they win, then they cheated, and if they lose, then

they were throwing the game. In order to show that like it's not actually a problem so we can sneak more trans women into sports. There's literally no way for a trans woman to compute compete in sports without being accused of doing something wrong. So I think that's clearly a problem unless they quote stay in their lane, and that's a horrible phrase, but I mean they could make but they're not allowed to there's a trans individual who wrestles.

It's a trans individual, a trans man, and that's why you don't know about it. Who wants to wrestle against men down in Texas and wasn't allowed to the law prevented him. He had to wrestle against women. And then of course the anti trans people took pictures of that and said, look, this is what the trans advocates want because he looks mannish and he's wrestling a woman, right

when in reality it's the exact opposite. It's their rules that are preventing individuals from doing this, but because it's a trans man, nobody cares. And I also think there

is a somewhat unspoken misogyny in the debate. Like I specifically remember talking to a roller derby team made of mine that I was getting to know, and she is someone who is just like physically small in almost every way, but just an unbelievable skater, like super, super talented skater, and she was telling me how upset she gets over it because it's a lot of ways people telling her that she is weak and needs to be defended from people like me, and it just completely moves past all

of the training and the work that it takes to get good at a sport, right, and so I end up in this place where I spend you know, two three four years working really really hard to get good at my sport, to learn how the game is played on a strategic level, to build up my physical endurance

and my physical strength to get good at that. And then when I'm good at that, I end up being put in a position where to look reasonable, I have to argue for my own mediocrity, right, Like I have to justify my presence by saying, like, no, I'm actually not that good at this, like despite the fact that I spent Like the reason I'm good at this is

because I worked really really hard to get there. And I also have you know, I had the financial advantage that I you know, had time to go to practice, you know, and there are may be things about my physical makeup that make me more predisposed to athleticism than the average person. But the conversation, you know, like the conversation never turns to that, and people don't want to hear about, you know, how much mouscle mass I lost

when I started estrogen. You know, like those sorts of things like if we're if we are really truly to have a conversation about fairness and sports, the focus on trans people makes zero sense. The idea that these conversations writ large didn't really happen until trans people entered the picture, I think is very telling of what the actual motivation is personal. I'm sorry to hear about your experience there

that I can imagine that would be incredibly frustrating. So I can one hundred percent transport my mind into your mind and see what that would be like for all your hard work to be discounted. That would suck. That it's not great. Yeah, yeah, absolutely suck. Do I think there is no debate to head I'm not there. I'm not there with you. That we should have stopped that discussion, I don't think so. I don't think Kelly's saying we

should stop the discussion. I think Kelly's pointing out that the hyper emphasis on one tiny piece of the fairness discussion, I think is a legitimate concern that like you are focusing on a tiny, tiny issue and saying that your real concern is fairness broadly speaking in sports, and that gives the impression that, like, if not for the existence of trans women in sports, it would be a perfectly

fair meritocracy, which it's just not. Now you can say, well, you don't want to add any more on fairness, and then we absolutely have to, in which case I agree we should have as little unfairness as we possibly can while respecting everybody's right to engage in sports. And if you want to tell me what your approach is for letting you know, trans women, you know, engage in sports in a way that seems fair, I'm happy to hear

like a variety of options. But if the answer is going to be they can't transition, or they have to you know, v men or something like that, then I think I think you're creating an unfair, you know, an inequitable system in that direction, and I don't think there's

any substantial benefit to that, right. I think it's worth, you know, educating people about the complexities of sports fairness, so the conversation is worth having, But I also think it's worth acknowledging a on a meta level, it does seem like there is a hyper emphasis on a particular group who is also Again, this is how you tell something's a wedge issue, that like, this is a group that is being attacked across the board right now in a way that suggests that the emphasis on sports is

just an acknowledgment that people care about sports, and it's an easy target to start people on the path to not believing in trans people. I totally hear you, but I also think this stuff is so And I know you think this is stuff is complicated to us, You're not going to disagree with you, And I say this stuff is complicated, but some people could argue like, okay,

but they are rightly attacked. You could see someone being on the show right now and taking another perspective and saying, well, you know, thirty forty years ago, a man trying to sneak on the woman's team would be attacked, and rightly so. And it's because the way they're thinking about the issue is they're not in agree they're not one hundred percent with you that trans women or women. We kind of jump in the deepen. We didn't even get through some

basics like is sex a binary? I had questions here in my thing, like, you know, just like basics things to see, like are we all in agreement on certain things? And so that's why this stuff gets so tricky because people are coming at this from just fundamentally conceptualizing a human in a different way. Well, yeah, and again for me, it comes back to the focus, like Aaron was saying, Because you know, I look at like all of the people talking about fairness and women's sports. My next question is,

who's your favorite women's sports team? Like, right, why is it that your concern for women's sports only started to exist when trans people entered the conversation, Like I have to be suspicious of someone's motivations, if that's the truth, right, And so at that point, like we're not having a fairness in sports conversation, we're having a transphobia conversation. That and that's not to say to the earlier conversation. That's not me accusing everyone of entering the conversation of being

consciously disingenuous. I don't think that's the case at all. I think people really do good faith have that concern. But I think those folks have been I guess, like pushed in one direction or another without without the full picture. I think people people with bad faith are taking advantage of people with good faith, if that makes sense. Oh, moral panics work a lot of the time, and you know,

I think actually that this has been really valuable. Like, I know, you feel like we haven't gotten to some of the basics. I don't think we need to have a chat here. I mean, like biologists can have a chat about the binary nature of sex. I don't think it's actually crucially part of our conversation here. I think we would probably agree that, like the vast majority of

individuals cluster to you know, to particular polls. But does binary mean literally everybody or you know, how do you take about you know, the other percentage of intersect individuals, et cetera. But it's not important, Like, that's not that's not our concern here. I think our concern here is I think it's a little important. Well, let's say is here.

I think it's I think what matters is downstream questions about is it harmful to women in sports if trans women are allowed into their sports, is it physically dangerous to them? Or is it unfair to them? Right? And the question of whether or not sex is a binary

doesn't address that, right. What addresses that is conversations about different capacities, about the effects of testosterone on puberty, you know, about the limits of what we will consider acceptable or unacceptable advantages within sports, you know, so like it's better for us to be having these more deep end I think conversations because I think those like you know, is

sex of binary? How do you define women? Those are often not intentionally but sometimes intentionally use as these kind of thought terminating cliches where the goal is to get hung up on biology or metaphysics, when the real question should be who's allowed to use which bathrooms without being harassed? And the answer should be everybody right like to be allowed to use the bathroom you identify with. And we're

not going to police you on this. Look, if you do something criminal, then we will, you know, deal with that. But I gotta be honest with you. If I want to harass women, I don't have to dress up as a woman and go into women's bathroom to do it. Like that's like in sports, Like it's just not the way. Too much effort in order to try to do the thing that society already lets me do. Yeah, this is in a way like the Benjamin Button of interviews, because I kind of want to like end with a discussion

of the difference between sex and gender. If we should have started with that shit maybe you haven't an opinion, and both of you seem my opinion. Maybe that's irrelevant to all these conversations. I think it's like really important for these conversations. It's not not irrelevant, just just not I think I think the starting place of Calli's experiences is a better starting place than a philosophical debate about sex and gender. Then I'm happy I started with that. Then, yeah,

I think that was absolutely the right choice. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, okay, good, you know what, Then I'm happy that we did that. Yeah. Yeah, I would also say I don't think it's irrelevant, but I think it's something that requires a lot less attention than it's often given. That's interesting because because there I feel like they are different. Within the trans camunity, there's different conceptualizations of the isomorphism sort of get really nerdy there

between sex and gender. So some make it very clear that trans is having a gender identity that is really at odds doesn't match your sex, and they can separate the two things. Some I start to see these things get conflated in a way where I start to I say, okay, transgender women, okay, transfer when are transgender female? You know, like male female tends to be sex labels and women

men tend to be identities. I think there's a disagreement there within the trans community exactly, you know what that is. Some I will talk to like, no, no, we acknowledge that trans women are women, but we still acknowledge that we're biologically male, and where others may say no, they're the same thing. So I didn't even ask where you

think about? What do you think about that? Keli? The reason that I am uncomfortable with questions like that is because the way that those questions are often presented ends up being presented in such a way as to diminish transidentity in one way or another, right, like like, oh, yeah, you know you're a woman, but you're like really a male, right Like, And I know this is just anecdotal, but like, I don't think I have personally ever been asked that question in a way that I felt like wasn't in

pursuit of that, because my question is in the broader societal sense, in terms of how we treat people, what rights we give access to people, what rights we give people access to, Like, I don't think that matters, you know, Like if we're trying to answer, you know, a question about the scientific reality of what human beings are in one sense or another, like what you know chromosomes look like, what sort of like hormones people have and that kind

of stuff. Sure, I mean, you know, I want to have as much information about biology and all of that sort of stuff as I can. But I don't think that is the conversation that we are actually ever having, really, And I think there is a complex relationship between those things, because I think gender is very socially constructed. I think it is socially constructed around at least superficial realities about the way biology ends up playing out what you know,

like what is most of the time. But I also think it's worth pointing out that, like, there are roughly the same number of intersect people as there are redheads in the human population, right, Well, that statistic is not true. Actually, that's that's that. Yeah, And I can say I'll send you okay, I'd be interested in your sourcing. Yeah, okay, But like that is to say that, like, even if we were to acknowledge that things are like mostly binary, they're not as much as we really think they are.

But then I also have to come back to why does that matter for the purpose of the discussion. It's the latter part there that I'm with you. I'm with you, you know, why does it matter from the perspective of the dignitian worth of a lived experience? I would be so so on the same page with you there, right, But from the sense of yeah, for getting like biology right, Getting biology right that's in its own category is important. I totally agree with everything is Kelly is saying there.

As a you know, from the philosophy side, I will always be willing to jump in and talk about conceptual distinctions, but I you know, I will preface it by saying, I think politics and the well being of individuals should be the defining decision maker, not you know, definitions, partly because look, at the end of the day, there's no true definitions for words. I think this is a problem that some people get lost on, which is there's no

correct definition of woman. There are more or less useful definitions of women, right, and the same thing in biology, right, Like, let's talk about the definition of sex. Is the definition of sex purely related to chromosomes? Is it a mix

of chromosomes and phenotypes? So like Sometimes people will tell me that it's just chromosomes, and then I'll say, well, okay, you know, then let the person do all the other sort of stuff and they'll say, well, no, but that they you know, it's also phenotypes and stuff like that. You know. So what I think is there is something that there is to be biologically male when biologically female.

It has to do with chromosomes and distosterone. And there's a spectrum of you know where you you know, what mix of those properties that you have, and it's important to know that. I think you're one hundred percent right. I would say bimodal not a spectrum, but yeah, I'm in by spectrum. Like some men have low testosterone, some men have high dystosterone, and it's actually not the case that there's an easy correlation between those things and body strength,

for example. It's more complicated than you'd think. That is not to say I don't I do think that tran that like distosterone, has an impact on things like muscle

mass development, et cetera. But the point is I was just trying to make I think it's important to distinguish between sex and gender because when a trans individual goes to a doctor, their doctor should understand their medical history, which includes that they were born a particular biological sex and transitioned at some point that can impact the way

that they need to be treated medically, absolutely, right. And then gender, so we have gender and gender identity, right, So gender is sort of the outside in approach where society constructs your gender through gender norms and things like that. And then gender identity is the subjective how you experience

your own gender from the inside out. And all three of these things are interconnected in every individual to some extent, but they are separate things and we have to treat them separately because again, right, you're not checking chromosomes at the bathroom door. You're checking do they look like XYZ or not? Right, you're checking gender and gender identity because

they're real, and that's what makes them real. Like they're social constructs, but they're social constructs that consistently impact a person's life. If you don't fit your gender norms, you have a different experience in life than if you do

in a gender normative society like ours. So it's clearly real, and what becomes interesting there is like, there are some ways that I actually think the medical profession would do well to pay more attention to those kinds of things, because you know, we often talk about how, you know, making medication decisions for example, right, like what what your hormonal makeup is affects the way that you react to certain medications, for example, Right, So like that's one reason

why it would be at least somewhat important for a doctor to know, like the circumstances of your birth, if you're on hormone, if you're on hormonal treatment of some kind, even outside the even outside trans folks, like if you if you were born with a hormonal imbalance where you know, you have a certain number of chromosomes, but your body reacts to hormones differently, which is like what a lot

of intersex conditions are. But also like a lot of doctors just assume a lot of those things without ever checking them out right, And so that's what ends up happening.

Is like, if the focus really is the well being of trans folks, we would actually be having a different conversation because if we were talking about people's actual well being, the conversation would be No, actually, a doctor should know all of this stuff about you from the jump, because it affects the way that your body might absorb certain medications, but the medical profession as a whole likes to just assume certain things, like you've got M checked on the box,

so I know that I can prescribe to you X medication because people with M and this box react to this medication in this way. Right, But that's like not really the conversation that ends up happening writ large, Right, the conversation is it looks entirely different because the basis

of the conversation is not actually that. Yeah, that's a really good point, and I would yes, and that let's say that within the field of psychology, if the specific topic is what is the how queen maximum as the well being of transfolk, I think that it's a very woefully understudied topic within psychology, and we actually don't have the answers that are definitive along those lines. I would strongly disagree with that. Talk to me why you think

all things point to a certain direction. I think it's very very clear that affirming someone's identity to the extent that they feel it necessary to, you know, hormones or surgeries or whatever like. I think it is very very clear that access to those things is and that's not to say that all transfolks want those things. A lot of trans folks don't. In fact, a lot of trans folks don't feel it necessary for their own well being.

I think it is very very clear that people being affirmed in their identity to that extent is it's just very very clear that that is the right answer. Let me just jump in and preempt a potential concern. I know some folks will be thinking, you know, what's your sign tipic evidence for that, And I do think we don't have enough like really really good longitunal data, yeah about about any of this, because it's very hard to study.

It's very hard to even sample. So like a lot of the studies about trans individuals are bad because they sample specifically, you know, de transitioners in radical anti trans communities, or they sample specifically, you know, pro trans individuals who are like part of like a Trevor Project activity, Like you're not You're not getting an unbiased sample, is what

I'm saying. A lot of folks will cite Jack Turbin's studies to you know that like that they show that like the vast majority of gender affirming care works out well for people, and his studies have selective selection problems as well, So I think I think we should you know, we need more data, right, and the absolutely that's all

I'm saying. Well, I was just gonna say, the best way to get that data is continuing to provide this kind of care while also studying the impacts will also destigmatizing it, because I do think we have enough evidence to suggest that this is a treatment that helps a significant portion of individuals and they should have access to it. And the question is how big is that portion of individuals.

How do we assess which of those individuals get this treatment, and how do we minimize individuals who get this treatment when it wouldn't be the ideal treatment for them. Look, sometimes, you know, let think about people who deal with any depressants, right, how many different types of antidepressants they go through, some of which have really, you know, potentially significant side effects

before they find the right treatment. Like, sometimes people are going to, you know, try transitioning to some extent and it's not going to help with their issues, and they're going to try something else. I don't think we should see those people as being victims of medical malpractice. I think that's a very different story. From somebody who just gets shoved into hormone treatment or something because ideologically the doctor thinks that this person is trans and they should

be pushed that way. And I think it's really important to interrogate the reasons why too, because a lot of people end up pursuing transition related things, whether it be hormone surgery anything like that, and they desist not because it was the wrong thing, but because they can't handle what it is to live in society as a transperson.

I'm thinking specifically of there was a I think a sports broadcaster who ended up dying by suicide, not because being trans was the wrong thing, but because she was just entirely unprepared to live that life, experiencing like personal and systemic misogyny, right, And so I think it's really important to ask those kinds of questions too, Like we have to dig a little bit deeper, you know, Like anyone I know who has regrets around surgery, for example,

it's not because they thought the surgery was wrong. It was because the surgery did a bad job, or you know, some other reason like that, not because the thing itself

was the wrong decision. Within psychology, maybe I'm wrong, but I have this principle that there's no one science fits all approach, and there is such pressure from a lot of people psychologists to be trained to immediately affirm every patient who comes to them as who says that they potentially might be the opposite gender they might be that

is mismatched to what they were identifine as birth. And it's almost like taboo for a psychologist to be able to just say, Okay, let's explore this, let's see what might be right for you in the sense of maybe trans. There's kind of like an encouragement to affirm them as trans as opposed to figure out other and maybe other psychological ways for them to do it. Yeah, this seems in conflict with the stories that I hear from trans individuals. I was gonna say that is that is count that

is counter to so much of what I hear. Yeah, and again it's because all three of us are probably bringing our anecdotal experiences to it, right, and so like it's obvious that our experiences would be a little different. But this isn't to say that, like, my anecdotal experience

is worth more than other folks. But I will just say, like I know a lot of trans people, and like, universally, the problem is fine finding one finding a therapist who doesn't like push back and fight against someone's trans identity, and then also someone who doesn't want to tie every single problem in a person's life to being trans. And this is actually an issue that I'm dealing with right now, Like I want to have a therapist because I need

coping skills for ADHD and an anxiety and going through a divorce. Being trans actually is really not anything causing any problem in my life right now. I have to find a therapist who is like cool with me being trans, but also doesn't want to make every conversation about that, you know. And it's as far as I can tell, in the trans community, the problem is actually that finding affirming therapists isn't even a problem. It's finding like transcompetent therapists.

Like what does that even mean? Right? Like I know so many people who have had to educate their mental health and medical providers about like what it even means to be trans, like let alone, you know, affirming them or like helping them through that journey, because I mean, I think if someone I mean, if someone comes to a therapist and says like I think I'm trans and this is, you know, the source of some conflict or problem for me. Like, I think it would be a

bad therapist that didn't dig into that right. But I think there's a there's a very big difference from saying like, let's talk more about this and let's like dig through those feelings and explore that there is like there are different ways to approach that right, that right that don't

cause harm. If I can also share secondhand, somewhat vaguely story because I know a lot of people are concerned about this, specifically with regard to children, that children are being over supported in this sort of thing, which hopefully will allay some people's concerns. So I know several individuals who transition to a variety of different ages, including an individual who transition and pre puberty. Now what do I

mean by that? This is an individual and like I'll emphasize, this is an individual who lives in a place that is anti trans. Her her biological father is anti trans. She has faced serious conflict over this for her entire life. But she's also persistently identified this way for her entire life. As far as anyone can tell. They tried to like pressure it out of her in all the kinds of

ways that you could imagine didn't work right. And so what she has experienced is, you know, first what Kelly was describing the kind of social transition, and then you don't start taking puberty blockers until puberty starts to set in, right, and the ideas at that point you make a medical decision. And what this individual experienced is not you know, here's here's your drugs off you goo, right. It was a

persistent process where they worked. You know, they met with counselors and medical essionals who were very candid about the potential you know, uh, I don't I don't love the term harms, but let's you know, like side effects of hormone replacement things. You know, the reasons that I think it's probably best not to say that hormone replacements are irreversible.

I think that's too strong a claim. What I think we can say is an individual of that age can be given sufficient information about things like potential sterility, potential impacts on bone density, et cetera, such that they can make an informed consent decision. I think that is very

possible for someone even at that age. And you know, what that person experienced was what they call sort of careful waiting and watching or something like that, or you know, like they had to be persistent, insistent and consistent in their demands to transition, right, so it you know, that's how they kind of I think, weed out this idea of this person as maybe being socially pushed in this direction, or maybe it's just experimenting or something with someone who, like,

you know, this is really really core to their their identity in this kind of way, in a in an immutable kind of way that you know, they had conversations with their parents, with the doctors and everything essentially ultimately decided to get the treatment. And I think that is good. Like, I think that's what we should want. When I share that story with gender critical people, they tend to call

me their lid. I was just going to say, but I think that's absolutely Like, that's how medical ethics works, in my opinion, Like medical I like I teach medical ethics. Medical ethics is very messy, yeah, and it's it is a It is a complicated situation where often there are

no perfect answers. There are only answers again with trade offs and benefits and I would argue that young people should have bodily autonomy and the ability to make medical decisions as long as they are given adequate information and are at an age where they can sufficiently understand that. And I think this person was at that age. I will I will play double out of can here in a second to Kellia, do you do you largely agree with with Aaron's perspective there entirely? Yeah, okay, not just

largely entirely. Okay. We can have a conversation about whether or not the current level of gatekeeping is a good one or not, but I think it's important to acknowledge the reality that basically, in all cases that I'm aware of, like the level of gatekeeping is extraordinarily high for kids to access anything medical, anything outside of you know, the previously discussed like you know, different clothes, haircut, that sort

of stuff, puberty blockers, hormones, surgery. I actually I agree with Aaron that calling it irreversible is too much, But also I think it goes a little far in the other direction. Like your first dose of estrogen you have like irretrievably changed your life in huge ways. And my thing is, like we don't even often start from the

reality that this is often so difficult to access for people. Right, Like, I'm not an expert in child development or medical ethics like Aaron and so like, I hesitate to offer a really strong opinion on like specifically what the level of correct gatekeeping is, but I do think it is important to start from the basic reality that right now, the barriers to accessing that are huge, and there are medical professionals and mental health professionals involved at several stages along

the way over a long period of time before anything like that happens, and like we have to just start from that reality, like, this is not a thing where you know, a seven year old walks into a doctor's office and walk out with puberty blockers. Like, that's just not a thing that happens. Well, that's something that helps over the temperature to do that, to make that very clear that this is It's like, even within the trans committee's considered a big deal when a twelve year old

or sorry, yeah, well I guess twelve year old. Yeah, I want their puberty at twelve. That where a twelve year old takes a testosterone blocker, for instance, that's not like the most common outcome Yeah, the story I told you is the only story I know of an individual who like didn't start to deal with this stuff sort of mid or post puberty. Yeah, And I will say one of the like one of the premier trans kids programs in the country is in Cincinnati. It's a Cincinnati

Children's Hospital. Like, people come from very far away to come to Cincinnati Children's for their for their trans program and so like I've been to a lot of events where the folks who run that clinic talk about what the process looks like, and like it exhausts me just hearing about it, honestly, like the level of I mean, these are like enthusiastically trans affirming care providers that still like, you know, it's there's lots of therapy, lots of medical evaluation,

lots of consultations with parents and the kids and all that. Like there's so much that happens before any any like actual medical intervention happens. And let me let me just add something. There's a burden issue here in our ethical trade off debate, which is a any amount of gatekeeping is going to come at a cost to the individual who's trying to get medical care because they you know, it's a it's an orerous burden to get multiple appointments,

all these kinds of things. It may be a necessary cost, but there is the additional cost of being in a for profit system. I we even talked about the capitalist

as you want, you wanted to talk about that. I have a note that you wanted to talk about that two hours ago, and partly and part you know it's you know, Matt Walsh a little while ago released an edited clip of someone talking about the costs of transitioning, claiming that that, like this is proof that this is all just a big for profit money making scheme for doctors or something like that. You know, I don't believe

it is. Look, you know, I don't think that there should be profit and capital or like, you know, no more than all of medicine is to make money. I mean, interestingly, those arguments are functionally identical to anti vaxxer arguments in the sense that they're just claiming that this is a profit driven treatment instead of an actually beneficial treatment. But setting aside that conspiratorial side of things, individuals who want medical care in our society, who don't have good health

care have to pay a lot. I don't know if I can curse on the show, because I'd say, you know, a whole lot can like a fucking ton of money. Right, So if you say you have to meet with this many doctors this many times to get this treatment, you are saying transitioning costs. This, this is the baseline cost for you to be allowed to have access to your medical rights. So that's a problem. I think the problem for that is not get rid of gatekeeping, but is instead,

you know, get rid of for profit medicine. But if you are in that particular reality, you could be much more sympathetic to the idea of black market hormones because people can't afford to go see a bunch of doctors, but they can afford to buy hormones on the internet. Because importantly, the hormone treatments that trans folks get largely were hormone treatments that were invented versus people who have

hormone balances, right, that's right. The regimen of hormones that I was initially put on, like my doctor told me, like this is like it's not identical, but functionally this is like the same treatment that postmenopausal sis women get, and even like falloplasty operations that trans men get to surgically constructive penis vaginoplasty, Like all of those surgeries have roots in solving problems, not for trans people, and they're

just being applied in a different way. And so like, this is definitely not an invented industry simply to make money, because like all of these things were not invented specific for trans people. Like they're obviously applied in slightly different ways, but they certainly don't exist just for us. Sure, No,

that's right, that's right, it's very true. Well, okay, well I did say I was going to push back a little bit, diner the idea of whether or not a twelve year old should ever be in a universe where they consent to that. Well, I guess the point there is, doesn't the parent have to consent as well? So what if the child wants to do it and the parents don't want it to happen? What happens in that case?

Out of curiosity? I mean, so what if a twelve year old's pregnant and wants to get an abortion and their parents are fundamentalists, right, I don't think that the parent gets to decide. I don't think that the law should be allowed to prevent the child from getting the abortion because the parents are against it. So I think we can all agree that there is at least one case where parent parental rights lose out to child autonomy. Okay, someone can say that's a false analogy. Well say, the

second part is is this situation sufficiently like that situation? Right? And I would say the answer is yes. You know, I would say there are some differences, but they are not morally relevant differences to me. So I guess maybe my mind is more not made up than yours on this topic. Because I had a very interesting conversation with Carol Hooven, who's an evolutionary biologist at Harvard who will be part of this four part series upon which you

two are featured as the first ones. But I had a very interesting conversation with her because she studied the She studies the science of testosterone and the role that it plays and sexual dimorphism and it's evolutionary origins, etcetera. She wrote the book T that is correct. It's a good book. I actually enjoyed that book. I recommend it the folks. Excellent, excellent, you know, And and I asked

her to walk through the science for me. She she made it very clear that taking Testosa Baker's right before puberty is irreversible in this sense. She says, it will make you sterile, and it also will make it so you will never be able to experience an orgasm your entire life. And those seem to be things that that seems. Yeah, that one, that second part is much more questionable than

the first thing. Yeah, question that you might give questions, Absolutely well, please reach out to her and email her after you hear my chat with her. Maybe I didn't one hundred percent quote properly. No, it's a claim I've heard before. It's a claim that you know, I hear the people saying that like trans people can no longer

experience sexual pleasure, stuff like that. If right before people they do do one of these kind of medical only in that case, Yeah, right, she made a case why that would be the case biologically, And I guess I mean that's that those are pretty big deals and I would just really would want to I would really want that twelve year old to know they've never in their

life probably have experienced orgasms. So it's not like they can do the thought experiment and make that lifelong decision whether or not to go down one path or another. They won't ever be able to know what the alternative

would be to make that decision. That's true in a lot of decisions, unfortunately, Like, I mean, I see that, but yeah, I mean that's you know where I come back to, you know, understanding the just unreal level of torment that it is to be trans and to be denied the ability to do what you need to do to feel good about that like that because even like, let's just assume that that is the case, right, that doesn't actually make it any more clear to me, right

because because that that is certainly a cost, for sure, Like it would be silly to not acknowledge that as a cost. But also, yeah, assuming it's real, but like that also doesn't erase the very real cost of someone being forced to go through a puberty that is, that is torture, right Like, And this is obviously I'm speaking from an adult perspective, having you know, I had bottom surgery when six years ago I was you know, thirty two,

thirty three, so it's very different thing. But there was a period of time in my recovery where I thought I had actually lost sexual function as a result of the surgery that I had, and for me, that would have been a very high cost, to be sure, but I still would have preferred that outcome to not having had it, like it was that big of a deal for me, And so I don't want to dismiss that concern at all, but that it's still that still doesn't make it like a black and white easy choice, I

don't think. I mean so, I'm not a biologist. From what I understand, the sterility issue is more sort of substantiated. The no orgasm thing I would push back on in various ways, such as like how are you defining an orgasm and measuring it? Like? Lots of lots of problems there. But I also think it's problematic because it's an implicit statement of you can't enjoy sex anymore, which is an assumption that people who don't have orgasms can't enjoy sex.

There are a lot of people who enjoy non goal directed sex that doesn't involve orgasms that makes them very happy. So you want to be careful. If you're going to talk to a child about those kinds of costs, then I think you want to say, look, there may be impacts on the way that you experience sexuality, such as potentially impacting your experiences of orgasms. So that doesn't necessarily

mean that you can't have healthy, meaningful sexual relationships. So, you know, like Kelly's saying, even if we accept one hundred percent for the sake of argument that both of these things is absolutely true, that's still part of the informed consent discussion. That's not you can't use those to say and therefore we're going to prevent these people from making these decisions because you know, the idea that, oh,

they don't know what an orgasm is. We make medical decisions all the time without knowing the realities of what the counterfactuals would actually be like or the cost would actually be like. And I think that's just the reality of us having to make decisions with imperfect knowledge. The important thing is are we doing the best we can to make sure that we are providing what seems like the most healthy and effective care for these individuals. This

is obviously an explosive issue. We should acknowledge that for sure, and sure, I find even my own blood pressure rising when we discuss this, and I care so much about protecting children from long term psychological consequences as well as physical consequences, and I know you too do as well.

I'm not pitting that against and saying you two don't care, not saying that to be clear, but it makes me I'm so wary about being like your position, Aaron, which is like, oh yeah, an NBD, no big deal, Like this is kind I'm kind of like you have your

stance on this. I don't have my stance in this yet, because I really don't know what the long term psychological consequences are of making such a decision so young, in the sense that like we have rules, get protections against children, and in lots of other ways, twelve year olds even if they want to consent to having sex with a four year old, we say no that like, yeah, that's fine, you're consenting that, but no, like that's gonna that's bad

for lots of reasons, including your long term psychological consequences. And you'll say that's a false analogy. Yeah, because we do know. I mean I the level of like empirical scientific knowledge. I'm not the expert on that, but like we do know for sure what the psychological effects of denying the reality of someone's transidentity can be and it is often a dead kid like and you know, going back to the earlier thing saying that that's an inevitability.

Obviously that's hyperbole. Obviously that's not true, but like things very often do end up working out that way, and if not, and if not, that often long term psychological damage, long term trauma, like long term life altering trauma. And I think it is absolutely a valid question to talk about the possible negative effects of making of like moving forward with that medical intervention, for sure, because I think

that's an important conversation with any medical intervention. But I think what is what is often lost in the conversation is doing nothing has a cost, and often a very incredibly incredibly high cost as well, and I think it's very important to not dismiss that part of it as well. Hold On, hold on, I'm definitely thinking like a scientist right now. The alternative here is not to do nothing

or to have them take puberty blockers. Here's an interesting question scientifically, because I think about studies in my head, like what is the statistics can a difference between doing a gender affirming care in the sense of you change your pronouns, you do everything, but the change the pure blocking versus the pure blockers in terms of suicience, that that would be where my head goes in terms of I want to see that data, if that makes sense.

I mean, And that's complicated too, because not not all trans people need or want hormones or surgeries or anything like that, right, So, like it's it's the difference between knowing that you need those things and not and not needing those things, right because for some people it really is entirely about maybe like outward presentation, name pronouns, that sort of stuff, and like that's all fine, and that's

entirely valid, right. And so that's so when I say do nothing, I mean someone who says this is a medical intervention I need and refusing to give that do nothing is refusing to give them mental not providing the medical intervention in those specific circumstances where someone is saying this is something I need and you're saying no, we're not seeing it's not meaning complete ignoring the child's yeah,

you gotcha. And can I push back a little bit, I don't know if this just just phrasing a little bit in terms of like that we see this as no big deal. I think like there's a conflation sometimes that happens when someone is confident or has a settled position on something. That's the same as thinking that it's not a hard question or that there aren't important cause

to every answer to that question. Right, Like, if I've just if I've done enough you know, ethical parsing and stuff, and I come to a settled conclusion that, like, you know, affirming people's identities is the ethical thing to do. I

think that, like that's reasonable. And if you show me like an overwhelming like you showed me that like puberty blockers killed children, right like it just they just die, right like, then I think you'd have a reasonable argument that it's immoral to prescribe puberty blockers to them, even

if that would affirm their identity. What I think we have is enough evidence to say there are some medical costs, but there are also some medical and psychological benefits, and that like it's not no big deal, but it is progress in our understanding. And I think some people think that, like we have to always be so open minded to every possibility rather than coming to kind of settled conclusions.

I also just want to say about the the sex with children things, because this comes up so much when you start talking about child autonomatic automatic kind of you would call it a red herring perhaps, yeah, or thought you know, a thought turnating cliche or just like it's just a bad argument, right, I don't, I don't falacy names to just say it's just a bad argument. My

argument was just a bad argument, Scott. Well, because and like you know why, we have, you know, an abundance of evidence that like sex with underage individuals significantly harms them psychologically, right, Like we know this, it's a real it's obvious data on that. Right, And so when we when we say you can't have sex with children, even if they consent to it, we are you know, in a way being soft paternalistic. But because that is the

right thing to do in that particular situation. You know, it's a totally different cost benefit analysis when you're talking about a medical treatment. Well, even if the data showed that it was okay, though it's not like you would suddenly be like okay, then we should there's justification for it. Look, if humans were a species hypothetically where we were sexually active from birth, right and we like were immediately function,

you're going with I'm getting nervous. I feel like I know you're going this, and I'm about to have a heart attack. Okay, but what I'm saying is you're asking me, what if humans were biologically different, should we morally treat them differently? And I would say yeah, like if if different things are good for humans because there are a

different species, then that's fine. We're still respecting autonomy, right it which just it's changing the shape of Like if we found out, for example, right that like people are you know, there's no sexual cast there's no cost to being sexually active at sixteen instead of twenty? Right, should we set the age of consent at sixteen instead of twenty even though religious fundamentalists want to edit it, you know, twenty five or whatever. Yes, Like, well what about that?

That's part of the No, that's my question. What about twelve? If you could really show that? Can't absolutely no, Look you're straightforward, let me straightforward. No, Please let him answer, Please, let him answer answer. I'm an ethicist. I'm not afraid of being canceled. You can't do anything awel because that is my direct analogy is twelve. So sure, let's says let's say you had overwhelming evidence, contrary to all prior evidence, and right contrary to the giant body of work that

shows that this is bad for twelve year olds. You had so many studies that suddenly proved that it was okay for twelve year olds to have sex. Yeah. Yeah, then like if they are psychologically competent, which is what you've proven, right, because there's no way that it's not causing harm. If they are not psychologically competent, then yeah, they should be allowed to have sex. I think that's you know, it's about harm reduction right where we care, We set the age of consent because we are trying

to protect people from harm. What other reason would there be? Well, okay, so okay, I disagree, disagree, but yeah, God, And I think what what Aaron was getting at earlier about the perception of having having a settled conversation or a settled position being read as like a nonchalance about the position.

And I think there's there's another piece of that that I think is important to name, in the sort of baggage that I'll just cop to, like coming to conversations like this with in that if I don't act that way, I know that people in bad faith will point to that and saying, well, look, even these activists aren't super

sure of the things that they say. Right. It's a rhetorical trap that is set for you where if you are super sure and confident, you get painted as being like rigid and unflexible and not willing to consider outside viewpoints.

But the minute you temper that position, it's like, well, even this person says, there's an exception, so we can't know, because the argument works its way back to in the case of affirming trans kids, for example, the argument works its way back to and thus we shouldn't do any of this because we just can't know, right, argument. It's the argument for inaction. It will and I know that. But the problem, the problem that I end up being put in is knowing that you are not the only

audience for this conversation. Right, And that's a thing, and that's and that's a thing that I am forced to consider in situations like this, definitely, because because that's a thing that often ends up happening, is is people taking your words out of context and using them against you. Right. But like I can tell you, you you know, I've had lots of conversations with parents about their kids transitioning and like it. I mean, it is. It's it's not a

thing to undertake lightly. And I don't think anyone actually thinks that, like anyone who argues on the on the side of affirming trans kids thinks that is it is a thing to take lightly, at least not people who have the authority to like actually affect the way that these things work out in the real world, because I mean, I mean, I can, I can point to all sorts of costs that have come with my own transition, but they're they're all costs that ended up being worth it

for me, and they may not be for other people. Great point, and I think, and I really respect that as a person who is an adult who made these decisions with who's capable of making a fully formed decision. The reason why why I disagree for a number of reasons with what Aron said, and I don't want to leave double click on that again the thirteen and four

year old think that's a whole separate conversation. I think there are lots of issues that surrounding why I don't think that's okay, not just for this particular reason of whether or not there's psychological harm but I think that from a psychological perspective, from what I know about child development, at the age of twelve, the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed, and it really it is important to recognize that a twelve year old decision maker is is not

the same as an adult decision maker who's able to weigh a calculus in a mature way, and this does have very long term consequences on them this decision. So I'm just taking that perspective. So where would you set the age of medical consent? I mean, to my knowledge, like the pre funnel cortex stops developing around twenty five, right, so denied informed consent, like because a lot of them have some impulse control problems. Let me tell you, trust me,

I know I teach collegets. I would push back on that and say that, like I agree with you, yeah, right, yeah, But we're not talking about We're not talking about a situation in which we decide to not move forward with this and there are no consequences of that either, right, We're talking about a potential one set of potentially bad consequences against another set of horrifically bad consequences, right, Like, we're not I think there is there's a fundamental way

that we treat this conversation that assumes there is no harm on the side of waiting and seeing wait, forcing a kid to go through a puberty that is torturous for them because the like you are, it's not a choice between doing this and doing nothing that has no consequences. Right.

We are talking about the potential whatever potential long term negative consequences there could be of puberty blockers, of cross sex hormone therapy, of surgeries, whatever, versus the lifelong trauma that comes from denying a kid those things, Right, And I think that's the side that we are often leaving entirely out of the conversation. Wait, there's something I don't know just You're gonna have to explain this to me later on in life. You still can make decisions, medical

decisions that help help you have greater alignment. I'm trying to ask a really nuanced question. I'm trying think how to articulate this, like scientifically, what is the difference in mental well being for those who have made this decision raid that critical period around puberty versus those who waited till they were adults and then had gotten hormones and

all these sorts of things. What is the that's my question, I guess, Well, especially for folks who go through a testosterone fuel puberty, there are a lot of things that you can not undo from that process. I mean, you you hear my voice, right, Like testosterone thickens your vocal

cords in a way that hormones does not. Thank you for one of the reasons I've done it for a while, and and and and actually one of the reasons why I've not like done voice therapy and tried to change the way that I talk because I like my voice. But the fact is, like testosterone fuel puberty thick in my vocal cords in a way that hormones does not reverse,

and surgery cannot reliably reverse. And there are lots of other things like that that are that there's kind of like no going back from if you if you go through puberty and wait to do you know, and wait to do any sort of medical intervention, like, there are things from that that cannot be reversed. Especially like this is a very very very big oversimplification, but if you go through an estrogen fueled puberty, testosterone will change more

more of your like physical characteristics. Then if you go through a testosterone feel puberty and do estrogen, Like I said, gross oversimplification, but like in a general sense, there are there are just changes that happened that aren't easily reversed, thank you. Yeah, or there's a really high cost for reversing them or something, and like, let's be honest, you know, there's a cost of a psychological hell if you don't

identify with your body in this kind of way. Like I've talked to people who, for various reasons, felt in conflict with their bodies, and it's you know, you feel you feel trapped inside of a thing that is like fighting you in this kind of way. And you know, that's a really horrible experience for people, and they shouldn't. You shouldn't be forced to suffer through that for what five six years before you get to, you know, be treated like somebody who knows the inside of their own mind.

I do, Like I understand being concerned about, you know, children not always understanding the complexities of all these kinds of trade offs. But like if it's cancer treatment, nobody's batting an eye about whether you know, a young cancer patient gets to have cancer treatment even though, let me tell you, the effects of cancer treatment look really similar in some ways to the effects of hormone treatment, like

sterility and things like that. Interesting. I would actually frame it different that they're in conflict with their bodies in a way. I would say they're in conflict with the way they want to be perceived by society in a way that isn't more in alignment with who they are or they feel like they are. I think some of them identify it's just like being in conflict with their bodies,

like phantom limb syndrome kind of stuff. Transidentity is complicated and nuanced in a way that like, there are pieces of that is that are true because sometimes it is, you know, fundamentally about a difference in the way people treat us versus the way that we want people to be treated. But also some people feel that it is a very inherent, like inborn thing of who they are and I and like that all of that experience is valid I think, which is not a soul. Will always say, oh,

you're saying there's a gendered soul. No, we're saying people have a first person, subjective experience that is persistent over time. What do you think about I hate that account libs of TikTok I got I finally got banned by them. It's just straight up bullying. But they do sometimes show videos of teachers who say things to their students, who teach things such as gender is all about how you feel and it can change five times a day. One mood might be male gender, one mood might be female gender.

Now do you both do you love that? Are you like? Do you do you watch those VISIOM teachers and you're like, yes, they should be teaching that in the schools, Like what's your I want to hear your perceptions of that. I mean, I just want more context. I don't I don't trust

anything that comes from that from that right, And that's fair. Well, because because because there's a world in which I am cheering that on, Because because gender identity isn't an inherently personal thing and it shifts for people over time sometimes, And that's great. I love that. That's fine. I like we should absolutely be affirming and encourage that. Yeah, so

my mind just got one. And because I really understand in Callie's world view, how you can reconcile allowing a person to make such a radical decision such as the testosterone booster's but also recognizing that if it's just a mood, that like maybe two years from now, you'll have a different mood, Like how do you reconcile those two things. I definitely didn't say it was just a mood. Okay,

what I think what I said teach some mood. Yeah, I think it's a well And that's why I said I would need context, right, and I would need to know like more of what that being said, all right, because I because I'm certainly guilty of saying things like that in conversation, you know, flippantly, like you know, like I love making a you know there, like I saw a sign that was like man woman at m ah, yes, the three genders, right, And I could imagine someone taking

a video of me saying that out of context to make it sound, to make it sound like it way more than something that it actually is. Right. I think it is true that people's visions of themselves and their identities change over time. It is not as equally true that people feel the need for some sort of big like physical intervention like hormones or surgeries, and that that changes over time, like that's those are I think those are fundamentally different concepts, and I don't think it is.

I don't think it's it's reasonable to compare those things as being equally fluid to one another, because it's just not the way that it generally works out. I don't think, and I think the reality can be for some people their generatity is very stable. For other people that's more fluid, And that's just the reality of gender. As for like education, I think that we should be teaching about gender in schools, just like I think we should be teaching about critical

race theory in schools. I think I can find you plenty of examples of teachers teaching them terribly and like causing harm by doing so, just I can find new examples of them teaching anything to it terribly and causing harm. But by in law large, I think people are teaching

these things in ways that are positive and a significant improvement. Look, you know, just like you were saying, I might say something wrong, I apologize if I screw this up, And like, on the other side of the spectrum are the really really woke people who really want to do the right thing and are saying really really wrong things because they think that's what they need to be saying to help people, and like they need to be corrected to they need

to be helped. But like they're not monsters. They're not trying to ruin children or something like that. They're not trying to groom your children. They're just trying to do what everybody's trying to do, which is be good people and help people live better lives. Yeah, good intentions can be paid with hells against the famous expression. Sure, right, but doesn't mean you can't talk about gender in school.

Wait wait, Aaron, wait, so do you not view yourself as as as as woke if you're not identify as woh identify as woke? But I also think they are king about people. And I'm like, Aaron, what are you No? I I was criticizing members of my own community as you. I think I just absolutely hate that term in the way I understand the way it's because well, it's it's

a it's a horribly misappropriated use of the word. The way that it was initially introduced to be used absolutely true, and and I think I think using it that way is allowing people of bad faith to steer the conversation in a way that I'm not comfortable with. Well, here's what I'll say. I think there is something called wokeness which is a cultural phenomenon that manifests in various different ways, and I think it's worth talking about that phenomenon while

also acknowledging that the term has been misappropriated from marginalized communities. So, you know, I think there's a difference between saying this word is being misused and saying this is not actually a thing. I one hundred percent think it is a thing. I think it's often weaponized and there's no there's no discussion about like here is functional wokeness, and here is a functional wokeness. It's treated as if like anyone who fits this category is this extreme thing, which I don't

think is a useful way to have a conversation. Yeah. No, I have made that point on my podcast before about the Well, I just don't like producing anyone to a specific ideology because I may agree with a lot of things some so called whol people say, and disagree with a lot of things some so called wolk people say, what does that make me? You know, like, you know, aren't we allowed? I think we need to open up more of a space for people. I'm a pluralist, I

identify with a lot of ideology, so I'm woke. I'm progressive. There you go, space for people to mix and match and be free thinkers and be fity over in woke world. Well, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, you sound very woke when you said you're like, we should teach critical race theory in schools. I mean, that's that's a whole other podcast that we could do, and we're not going to do that right now. But I bring it up because the trans panic is very connected to the

the queer theory. Moral panic in schools is being pushed by the exact same people who push the critical race theory moral panic. That is very true. That is very true. So let me wrap up today something that a point I've been wanting to make for the past hour and a half, just keeping in my head to the right time to make it. You said something earlier that I really resonated with it. I do think people need to

recognize that words can have multiple meanings. People are being so strict in their you know, biologists or like no sex means it's like gender means you know, it's like Okay, I think we And this is where I do get some arguments with some of my biologists colleagues. I'm like, you know, words can have multiple meanings, and I make an analogous to the world upon which I've studied of intelligence the past twenty years and trying to redefine intelligence

beyond an IQ test. And you made a really interesting point earlier about like the biology stuff. You know that going to this this is sex a binary kind of connotes there's kind of simplicit assumption will the sex is the real thing and the gender identity is the fake thing.

And I thought that was a really good point, So I wanted to I wanted to just I want to end here on that agreement, because it's it'd be the same thing or like someone who's evidently smart, brilliant, and then a school psychologist says like, let me miss your IQ, and they're like, you're not really smart because your IQ does not indicate that. And that's something I've been challenging

my whole career. So I see something analogous to what you all are saying and what a lot of people in the trans community are saying, which is they're trying to broaden our notion of what what gender could be and how we how we view that and the kind of the malleability of it, love it or hate it. I see what you're saying, and I really appreciate you coming on my show today and presenting your perspectives. Thank you so much. Uh. The term for that, by the way,

is essentially contestable concepts. There is no fairness right, There's no one definition of the philosopher right, several competing definitions

of fairness. I also, before we run out of time, I just have to say I find it really frustrating because I know you were trying to get this to be potentially a conversation across the aisle that a lot of the folks in this debate from the anti trands or whatever we want to call them, terf gender gender critical, gender critical right, most of them, you know, many of them like Matt Wallash will you know, will say no one will debate me on these topics. But as I

think you discovered, it was actually rather difficult. I couldn't do one of them to find write and I like, I'm here to debate any of these people. You know, Callie doesn't love that nearly as much I love it, I'm fine to do it. You're not trans doing hold on, you're not trans. And maybe there that does mean something,

because I did. I've talked to a number of trans and it was just would you talk to you know, and I mentioned someone in the Gender critical communion and most of them, well all of them, I couldn't find one that that didn't say, you know what, I don't feel like that's going to be good faith and uh and you can and you can sort of see it from their perspective as well, like, you know, I have to defend my existence again, you know, like and yeah

and yeah, and that's what I'm hearing. So that's exactly what it is. Yeah, I feel like I want to stand up for the trans community with what you just said, Aaron, that's so funny what I just well, so I had I had a lengthy exchange with Andy Lewis on letter Wiki, and I you know, it got picked up by the anti trans community and the pro trans community and the

pro trans community. Some of them were a little anxious that two SIS dudents were arguing about trans issues, and other ones were like, well, Aaron does a lot of debate with people like this, let's wait and see, and most of them were, almost all of them were extremely happy with how it went. And like, part of my defense of that behavior is there aren't that many trans people, and if they're the only ones who are allowed to argue these things, that's a big burden on their community.

I think it's okay if I have done the work and I am responsible about not throwing that community under the bus as a debate tactic that I can help, Like, I think that's fine. There's a fundamental understanding of like when I say, like as a blanket thing that like

I'm uncomfortable with CIS people debating trans stuff. It's not because they're CIS, right, it's because very often when I see SIS people debating trans stuff, they do a horrible job of it, right, Like it's just it's just, you know, there's that like second half of it often goes unsaid. I would actually love for SIS people like Aaron, who have done the work, who have done the reading, who know what they're talking about, who do a good job

to more often take those things up. Right. My hesitation is not actually to do with the fact that he's not trans. My hesitation is that very often SIS people have not done the work to understand what things you know, what things actually are. I did not mean to denigrate Aaron's spectacular reasoning and ability and ability to be this a spokesperson for the Trans Committee's you were being you were being you were being very anti SIS, and I'm

gonna come, yeah, you're being very woke. That's so funny that I ended up being the woke point. To be very clear, my point is I would genuinely like to see more of open, honest, respectful discussions between trans people and the gender critical people. I want to double click on that particular combination and say I would like to

see more of that. I don't even know if it's possible, but hopefully I'm doing this whole series where people can at least listen to people's perspectives that may be different from each other, even though they're not intercell intersecting with each other. Thank you both so much. You are both obviously very very thoughtful, compassionate individuals who've thought about this for far longer than I have. So thank you so much for being on the show today. Yeah, thanks for

having us you, thanks for a really great chat. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at thusycology podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page, The Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos of some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so you'll want to check

that out. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.