250. Maintaining long distance friendships in our 20s

many long distance friendships do you have? So the average number for people in their twenties is between two to five people. Two to five of the people we consider friends are people who we might not see for months on end, sometimes even years. They are the people that we stay connected to via text messages and tiktoks and rushed voice notes on the train, FaceTime calls when we can, and it can be really, really difficult to sustain those relationships.

Only about fifty percent of long distance friendships are successful in the long term, which, you know what, it's either very good odds or very terrifying odds, depending on how we see it. And despite that, we go into our long distance friendships with so much optimism and hope because we really care about these people and you know, what

else are we meant to do? If we said goodbye to every single friendship that was inconvenient, or every single friendship where distance made it difficult, we would be pretty lonely people. Because distance, whether it's physical or emotional, is kind of a fact of life. It's a fact of relationships. There are periods of great closeness and then periods where the connection kind of wanes. And our twenties are definitely

the decade for learning that lesson in my mind. For the first eighteen years of our lives, right, we are typically never more than I would say, thirty minutes away from our friends. We also tend to see each other probably five days a week at school, and then after we leave high school, we have that first exodus or that first shift of navigating long distance friendships when we all kind of scatter for college or we stay in

the same place. Then we might make new friends at university, and often we become even closer with these people we live with them, we experience many of our first with them until we are hit with that second round of distance post graduation. Right when you know, typically we're often at our peak closeness with people. The relationships start to disperse. I think this is definitely the period where our friendships

are tested the most and they become less convenient. It's a bit of a universal experience in my mind, a bit of a rite of passage. We move from high school to university, and then we move for our careers, and then we move just for fun, and it seems like everyone, the one we know and love at times, is kind of sprawled across the world and we're living these very distinct, separate lives. Of course, we still have the friends that have stayed in the same place or

who have moved with us. But for those long distance friendships, things do shift, and yet we still really want to be part of each other's reality. We don't want to give up the friendship. So today I want to talk about why we don't have to and how we can make it work. I also really want to explore what exactly happens to a relationship when we add in distance, and how to make sure that those long distance friendships continue to be fulfilling, they continue to be deep and

vulnerable and incredible. You know, I have some of my own strategies, and I've really come up with a bit of an essential formula for maintaining long distance friendships. Plus you, all the listeners were kind enough to provide your own tips and tricks that have helped you through the years, so I'm excited to hear from some of you. Let me just say this episode is coming at a great time for me. This year, I went through a period where three of my closest friends all moved overseas in

pretty quick succession. So it has definitely been a year of playing a lot of phone tag and just adjusting to this new reality with them. I also have a lot of really important friends with whom you know I haven't lived in the same city as for thirteen ten five years or so, so I was definitely paying pretty close attention to what you guys had to say, what you've learned from your own experiences, and of course the research.

I also want us to leave some space to consider what happens when long distance friendships aren't working out and when they become pretty strained. You know, when exactly is it time to release someone, When is it time to grieve a friendship that didn't survive the long distance phase. We've got to talk about that as well, amongst all the other positive optimistic things that we'll cover. With all that in mind, there is so much psychology, so much advice,

so much evidence to talk about today. So without further ado, let's get into it. Taking a close relationship and adding distance can cause a lot of emotional, social, relational changes. And the biggest one, the biggest contributor to the difference that we notice, I think comes down to a lack of convenience, a lack of proximity, and a decrease in shared memories, all of which are very well known crucial

elements of friendship. I will say, we do know that these ingredients are really important, but they're especially important when a friendship is just getting started and in its infancy. That is why relationships can still survive long distance when they've been around for a while. You know, if we didn't have the convenience, proximity and shared memories at the beginning,

then the relationship are more likely to fail. But normally, when we decide to be friends and continue a friendship with someone who is moving away or when we're moving away, it's because we've already got this foundation of trust, of familiarity, of similarity, and of some other essential element, This element of knowledge and being seen by the other person that makes us feel like to lose them would almost be

to lose a part of ourselves. So it's really difficult when a friendship is impacted by distance, but it's not a death sentence by any means, especially to establish friendships. Despite that it does make it harder to connect. When we are closer, we can just naturally do more things with our friends, and we can do more of those feller activities, and it's those filler activities that really help us bond and make shared memories. Shared memories are key

for low long term social bonding. There was a twenty twenty two study that found that the more autobiographical and specific memories that we share with others, the closer we tend to feel. And what that essentially means is that the more moments that our friends are around for and the more moments that we can look back on and see our friend in the background or by our side,

the greater our level of intimacy. It's, you know, really wonderful when we do get to see our long distance best friends for a weekend or at a friend's wedding or at a big celebration, and of course We're going to take any of the time that we can get with them. But in my opinion, the thing that I really miss the most is the errands. It's running into each other on the street. It's like grabbing a quick coffee, the you know, want to get a drink text, knowing

that you can both be ready in ten minutes. It's that instant gratification of having that person around and knowing that they could be at your house, you know, in a second. I reminisce on this all the time with my friend Erin, who I talk about so often on

the show. When we lived in Camber together, and it's been four years now since that was the case, but when we did live only one hundred meters away from each other, my favorite thing to do with her would be grocery shopping, and that is something that is so boring and plain, but we would walk up and down the aisles for hours and hours just chatting, and then we would come home and I'd sit on her couch while she cleaned. There was no fanfare. It was just

so simple. It was so every day and at the time, I did, you know, I didn't realize how nostalgic I would one day be for that opportunity to just have that everyday closeness with someone, and especially with such a good friend. There's also something to be said for the value of in person contact right like, nothing beats it,

even as we look for online substitutions and solutions. Getting to just see your friend and give them a big hug and just talk to them and hear their laughter like as you see it, and responding to the same things,

experiencing the same things, that's pretty special. And it goes without saying that a relationship that is defined by solely online interactions, it can feel slightly colder, it can feel a little bit more plain, but that just makes the time that you do spend together, you know, physically, a lot more special. And I like to think about, you know, how many people were able to make friendships and who made relationships that survived for decades doing long distance before technology.

You know, there were people who would go away for years at a time and they'd come back and their family would still be there, their friends would still be there. We'd pick up like there was old time, like it was old times. And during those periods away, you know, they would there would be limited communication, there would be

a lot of slow communication. That is something that we're actually going to talk about a little bit later on why traditional forms of communication like letters and photos and postcards are very very special for a long distance friendship. Not to offer any spoilers, but a lack of convenience, a lack of proximity and physical contact that can make long distance friendships especially hard in the weeks and the months and the early days, especially right after a move.

It can feel kind of awkward almost as you like adjust to this new chapter of your relationship. And I really want to make that known. It is going to be difficult. It's okay to feel like this is a little bit weird. It's quite hard to effortlessly slide into an online relationship, especially one that is across time zones,

across cities, across countries. And this may sound controversial to some, and I totally accept if you don't agree with this, but I was talking to my friend about this the other day and I came across this point that your friendships shouldn't automatically improve when you go long distance, and the same goes for a romantic relationship as well. Your friendship actually should not be at its best when you

are not seeing each other often. I think that immediate dip and that insecurity that you may feel when the distance first begins. It's very uncomfortable, but I think it's also a sign of how much this friendship means to you and how much you don't want to lose them. If it was effortless, if it was like, wow, I barely even notice that you're gone, you kind of have

to consider, like, how close were we really? So it's actually totally normal to worry about things changing, to worry about the friendship not being the same, to worry about losing them. I think that those fears are actually a

really beautiful indication of a very deep love. Let's also talk about something else that it's bound to come up in not even the early days, but just in the history, in the journey of a long distance friendship, and that is like the awkwardness around forgetting to talk for a little while, and forgetting to call for a few months and playing phone tag and feeling like the dynamic has changed. You talk to each other less because life is just

busy and it's hard to pick up the phone. I think the guilt that follows that, the guilt that you aren't as close anymore. That becomes a real obstacle in continuing to be friends with someone. You cannot have guilt in a relationship and hope that it survives. And often I'll see people who you know are like, well, it's just been too long. I just shouldn't message them. It's just going to be really, really awkward. That is not

what we are looking for. We need to be able to swallow our pride and just say, you know, I've got a lot on my plate, let's just get right back to normal. Let's just return to how we were. Because we do begin our long distance friendships with a lot of optimism. We want to talk to them every day, we want to still be involved. But it is difficult, especially perhaps when you're the one who has moved away and you're kind of swept up into your new life.

You are facing the pressure to find new friends, to find your footing. I think that our attachment to our previous life for a while can naturally just be a little bit neglected. But the more you avoid calling, talking, finding the time for a FaceTime, the harder it's going to become. And I'm speaking from experience. You don't have

to devote an hour. But when you're thinking about your friend, when you see something that reminds you of them, those are small touch points throughout your day that they are important to you, and you should just communicate that to them. Call them for ten minutes when you're on the train, Send them the picture of the thing that reminds them of you, of them, you know, anything it is, Send them the song that you're listening to when they come

into your mind. Just let them know and find the convenience that you used to have because of proximity in this new form. So I'm already skipping ahead into my tips. I'm already giving away the secrets. We're not even there yet. We're not even in that section. What I really want to give you before we get into specific things is the formula that I have and that I deeply believe

in for managing long distance relationships. And I actually talk very extensively about this formula in my book that comes out in April, But since that's a while away, I'm just going to give you the cliff note version now because it's too valuable not to share. Maintaining a long term long distance friendship is a combination of effort, patience, opportunity, and managing expectations. So that's the formula, effort, patience, opportunity,

and managing expectations. If I was smarter about this, I would have come up with like a cool little anagram word for it. I haven't done that, but you know someone can do that. The only word I can thin of his mope, which isn't going to work for this. But let's go through each of these different elements of this equation. So effort relationships, they do not just happen without some form of investment, even if there is distance involved.

So you have to be intentional and you have to really decide, you know, if you're the one moving, if someone has moved, do I want this person in my life? Because if I do, it is going to be an investment and it is going to take time. You have to make plans. You have to make each other part of your routine. You have to do the weekly, monthly phone calls, the monthly trips, the yearly trips, the long voice notes. You know, you have to show up for your friends by keeping your finger on the pulse of

their lives. I've found the best way to get a sense of whether I really know what's happening with one of my long distance friends. Is to know and be aware of the following things. I should know what they're looking forward to, I should know what they're struggling with, And I should know what they're focused on or interested in at the moment, So like, what's something that they're

loving like a TV show? Those three things are really good indicators as to the health of my long distance friendship. The second important part of this formula is patience. It probably should be number one. People aren't always going to be who we want them to be. Long Distance friendships can be frustrating, especially when we are now separate and dealing with our own complex internal and external lives as well. But all good, long lasting love involves a very healthy

dose of patience. This is especially true if you have a friend who is not in the same place, time zone, country as you. The golden rule is to show your friends the grace that you would appreciate in their circumstances. And I have definitely been on the receiving end of this patience more time than I can count. You know, it's probably saved quite a few friendships of mine. Was my friends really being like yeah, I get that this is a transitional, transformative period for you. I'll be patient

and I'll wait until this is a better time. I'll wait until you come back, as in like until I am ready to come back into their lives, not like come back to where they are geographically wise. So you really do have to be patient. The next important ingredient is opportunity. Effort is one thing, and it's a big thing, but sometimes there are just moments in a friendship that happen by coincidence and just take things to the next level.

You can't always plan or predict what these moments might be, but you have to be open to the opportunity of getting a surprise chance to see them, or the opportunity to meet each other in the middle, the opportunity to have them stay for a weekend, even if it's last minute to go to the concert, or you know, to pick up the phone and call them just when you

feel like it. There are moments when we can reconnect in very special circumstances, and it's really hard sometimes because you're busy, you're tired, you're used to a different life. Without the minute, there is always going to be a million excuses as to why they can't sleep on the on your floor and why you can't make that weekend work. I'm telling you now, in hindsight, you're going to wish that you had taken the opportunity and just run with it.

You're going to wish that you'd made the time. So finding and taking advantage of opportunities to see each other or to reconnect just as valuable as effort. And finally, this one's quite similar to patients, but maintaining long distance friendships really requires adjusting your expectations, and that can mean for communication, but also just adjusting the role that they might play in your life, how much you can rely on them, how much you can essentially rely on each other.

This also comes down to boundaries and being really articulate about what you need from this friendship. If you can't call once a week, if that's too much of a mental burden for you or you're just so busy, tell

them that. If you prefer voice notes to facetimes, tell them that, if you prefer Instagram to snapchat, like, whatever your communication medium is, make sure that you're clear on expectations around how often you're going to communicate, how deep that communication is going to be what you can expect from each other in certain moments. I think people I don't think. I know. Actually I'm going to change this statement. I know and you know as well. People change over time,

and loving them means letting them do. So they might not be the first person that you call with good news anymore. But just because the relationship has changed doesn't mean that it should be discarded. Just because things have shifted doesn't mean that you should listen to your first instinct to panic, to abandon the relationship before you get hurt, to move on with your lives. I think instead, it's important to have a conversation that could really save an

important friendship to you. So that was my very very general formula. But I also want to move into some of the specific creative fun ways that you can keep the spark alive in your long distance friendships. Some of these are from you guys, from our wonderful listeners, and some of them, let me just say a genius, they're just wonderful. So we are going to take a quick break, but when we return, I want to dive into these

practical tips. When I asked you all over on Instagram, what is your best advice or the best thing that you have been told about maintaining a long distance friendship. You pulled through like I have never seen before. I the amount of responses I got, I just feel like that is further evidence to me of how universal this experience is, especially in this decade, and the real challenge that comes with navigating relationship with someone despite obstacles. So

I couldn't even count. I think I received over five hundred responses. And first things first, because I can't possibly list them all. The major themes or the general pieces of advice that came from you guys were to schedule regular calls, to find easy ways to keep in touch so that convenient factor plan when you see each other next. But also be forgiving because life gets busy and you know you're living different lives now. Patience keeps coming up,

both from me both from you guys. It's probably the most important thing to remember in these relationships. But here what the more specific ideas. So this one I heard from three people, and I was actually reading it and being like, I wonder if these people are friends and it's worked for all of them, so they're all sharing the idea Because there was only three people who mentioned it, and I was like, this is so similar. And the

idea is called waffle Wednesdays. Really cute name to begin, but basically the premise is they told me was that on Wednesday, every person in their group chat or either party of a friendship, you have to send a big voice note or a big waffle to each other with everything from the huge life updates to the minor things the TV show you're watching, the bug that you killed in your bathroom, your new favorite workout. Just give them

a big, deep dive into your life. I really loved that they spoke about not just focusing on the big things, but making sure that you also share the small, mundane details as well. I do this with my friends by sending them random things I want to buy, or like, you know, I'll send them pictures of a haircut or different haircuts that I want, and I'll be like, oh,

you should choose. You keep them engaged. This was also a cute idea, and it comes back to that concept of slow communication or snail mail that we talked about before. It's sending each other's letters, sending each other hand written letters with maybe a nice envelope, a nice stamp, just so that people feel more special about your communication. It might be more rare, but maybe that's like the really

special part. You're really excited to read their twelve fifteen, twenty page note or maybe just the one page letter. Care Packages are another thing. I do this with my friends. Oh my god, I'm gonna bring up erin again. But she is like one of my most significant long distance friendships and we've been doing it for a while. And for Christmas this year, I sent her a bunch of chocolate she lives in Tasmania that she can't get. You know, that's only available in the main life end of Australia.

So care packages. Try not to forget Christmas, Birthdays, or just send them things when you feel like it. You know, it's so exciting to get something in the mail from someone you love, with heaps of little treats and special things. It is also a really good reminder, speaking of writing letters, speaking of gifts, to continue communicating in each other's love language even when you are miles apart. Obviously, you know it's really hard to continue communicating through quality time or

through physical touch, that's the big one. But try and find ways that you continue to show them love in the format that they might desire. So for quality time. As an example, instead of just facetiming and talking for twenty minutes, you guys could do activities together, or you could do watch parties, or you could do the Word or the Connections or the Sunday Quiz together as a way to like build this quality time that you feel like you're spending with each other. So I find that

really really important. You know, if you're someone who isn't the words of affirmation person, you might not want to jump on a call and be like, oh I miss you, I miss you, I miss you every week, but you might really want to receive a really nice gift or just to receive a message from someone being like, yeah, I'm just thinking about you. This one person and I'm this one was really really interesting. Only one person sent

this in and I loved her idea. And what she does is that she shares a journal with her friend love this, so they have this journal they send it back and forth. I was also like, who's going to keep this journal when it's done? When it's finished, maybe it's something that deserves to be in a museum of committed friendships, because that is just such a beautiful, beautiful idea, and you could like put stickers on it and like decorate it so every time it comes back to that person,

it's different. Very Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants vibes. Watch that movie the other day. It was gorgeous. It was beautiful. If you're actually are in a long distance friendship, watch that together. It's such a great movie. This was another tip. Have a close friend's story where you can just share whatever you want, like there's no pressure of judgment from people you're not close with, or isn't you know a

long distance friend. My friend EJ she does this. She just recently moved to London, and I love her close friend's story because firstly, she's just very, very funny, so it's like always quite hilarious. And yeah, I'm just thinking about some of the stuff she posted today and I'm like, yes, she's a funny girl. But it's also just really special to like have this look into her brain and to see the pop culture things or the songs that she's listening to, even though she's on the literal other side

of the world. Sending photo dumbs to each other with captions instead of doing long paragraphs also a really great way to do this as well. This final piece, this final thing, is not so much as a tip as it is a peace piece of advice, and it really hit home for me. Remember that they don't hate you just because they are not messaging you as much. I think that that is a spectacular reminder. When we are already facing a physical distance between us, sometimes there can

also be an emotional distance. We're not quite sure how the other person feels. We're not able to confirm or deny based on the fact that we are seeing them more or seeing them less, or having the opportunity to kind of square things away. So what that means is that we can take ambiguous or neutral situations such as not hearing from someone for a while, and apply our own anxious meaning, apply an irrational, delusional meaning that they hate us, they're done with us, they don't want to

speak to us anymore. Very rarely is that the case, and I want you to think about it from your own perspective. You've definitely had times of accidentally doing that to people as well. Life just gets very very chaotic. So the simplest answer is often the correct one. You don't need to fill in the blanks with fear and with anxiety and with worry. Sometimes it is just the fact that people have a lot on their plate and

they still absolutely one percent love you. This brings me to something that's very very important in this discussion, and that is the inevitable friendship fallouts or the friendship fizzles as I call them, that come from a long distance friendship. There will be some, there will be some friendships that

do not last. You know, there's this very famous study by someone called Robin Dunbar, and he looked into how many relationships we can have at any given time, and essentially what he says is that we are restrained or constrained by the networks in our brain that control how many important relationships could even be held in our minds. So five is how many close friends we can have.

Fifteen how many good friends. So sometimes someone you don't see that often does get bumped, just because the nature of your relationship has changed, and just because they've become, you know, more of an acquaintance. Someone you don't speak to every day, every week, maybe even every month doesn't mean it's over. And I really want that to come across loud and clear the changing of a relationship is not the same as the ending of one. Sometimes distance

just changes where someone sits in our relationship galaxy. So our relationship galaxy is an idea I came up with and it's a way of organizing basically where people sit in relation to us, and it kind of lets us understand what to expect from people and what they can expect from us in return. So you have three main circles in your galaxy. The the inner circle is your closest, longest, strongest relationships, not necessarily longest, but the ones that are

very very important to you. This may include your siblings, your long term partner, your childhood best friend who's going to be like the honorary aren't to your children. The inner circle is sacred and it is reserved for those that you could ask anything from and they would give it to you. The second circle is for those of those people who you have an ongoing and very close relationship with. It just hasn't reached the intimacy of the

inner circle yet. These are the friends that you see regularly, You rely on them for emotional support, you have shared experiences, they're your companions. You might not necessarily turn to them first in a crisis, but they are really really important to you. You love them, They enrich your daily life. Then the third circle consists of our more distant relationships. This is acquaintances, colleagues, friends that you have grown apart from.

These people are still an important part of your life, just in a more peripheral way, so they contribute to your social network. They don't necessarily play a central role. And then we have you know, we could add a fourth circle here. Sometimes I do, and that's the people who are like, I don't want anything to do with you. You're a stranger to me. Either you're a stranger who I don't know yet, or you're someone who I did

know who is now a stranger for bad reasons. But really we have the three main circles over our lives. I do believe that most people will shift between these circles. Very few can be in the inner circle, so it's quite an exclusive club. But just because they are in your inner circle now doesn't mean that they can't one day be in your second or third circle and then return to your inner circle. Essentially, it's not a problem for people to move between the galaxies. It's just that

it can be painful. The shift from one galaxy to another can feel quite universe altering, because it kind of is. It doesn't mean that they have disappeared. Nothing is stopping them from making their way back into the inner circle. What I really want you to remember, though, is that where someone sits in your galaxy should really reflect how you feel about them and how you treat them. Now, that doesn't mean that the third circle of people that

you treat like shit or that you forget about. It's just that your expectations for them are a little bit lower. So you know, as maybe a best friend who's now become a long distance best friend, as that as time goes on, you know, they might not be the first person you could call. You might not be able to jump on a plane the same way you could jump in your car and go and help them out. So your expectations for them and your closeness has kind of shifted. And I want us to really that that is not

necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I think that it is a way of adjusting what we expect from someone how we feel about them, without getting hurt, And it's actually a huge sign of respect to look at the relationship and say, hey, this isn't the same that it once was. That doesn't mean that I need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It doesn't mean that it's over. It's just changed. Sometimes though a friendship sadly unfortunately can feel beyond saving. Or what's more, I think

you just don't even care anymore. You don't even care enough to try now that apathy. That is a bad sign, but it's not uncommon. After months years of doing long distance with a friend, you just might not have the same depth or knowledge of each other's lives and who you really are. At this point in this chapter, you've just changed too much while you've been a part to continue on. It's just fizzled. You don't need to feel like a failure of this is the case. I will

come out and say this has happened to me. There have been people who I have been able to maintain loving, stable friendships with for over ten years of not living in the same place. And there are others where it is just quietly fizzled after only three months because you know, we just weren't the same people. There was a mutual agreement that we didn't have this space in the time

to invest that extra effort. Like we said at the very beginning of this episode, you know, some fifty percent of long distance friendships don't work out, and I truly believe that we cannot keep every single friend that we make. Unfortunately, sometimes there does have to be that exodus or that shedding of relationships that no longer fit into the puzzle of your life to make room for new people, especially if this has been caused by a mutual lack of effort.

So in the aftermath of this it can feel really difficult because you feel guilty, maybe betrayed, hurt, maybe a little bit unsatisfied. Just try not to make yourself or the other person a villain. Try and be neutral towards the situation, or at least neutral towards what caused the situation. No one betrayed anyone, No one is an evil friend because of friendship fizzled. It's kind of like the same way that we have to accept that death is part of life. Friendship breakups are also a part and a

promised part of this journey and of this decade. So just letting the distance take over naturally ending things amicably without any fuss. It also leaves the door open for them to return when timing and context is better. No anger, no bitterness, just a sense of peace with the way that the cards were dealt. And who's to say that if the distance hadn't occurred, this wouldn't have happened anyway. You know, sometimes it's not the distance that always causes

the friendship to end. Sometimes it's just that you are changing as people. Sometimes it's just that you are in new errors or new chapters of your life. You have different priorities, you have other friends that you no longer share mutual friendships with. You see your life differently. You have a partner, they don't have a partner. You work in different fields when you used to work as colleagues

in the same kind of profession. So don't always just assume that it's because you failed at the long distance thing. Sometimes it is the case that this may have just happened. The distance just sped things up, And we see this in romantic relationships quite a bit. So I just want you to rest assured at the just to end of this episode. Long distance friendships in your twenties are difficult. They are also common. They do require effort, So you need to consider is this an investment that I want

to make. Do I see a long term future with this friend? And do I see a future long enough that I'm going to be willing to continue to put in this effort for a long time to come. That is a question you have to ask yourself. I do

think though, that it is worth it. It is so one hundred percent worth it to have people who you love and who you care about in different countries, in different cities, in different places, because then you have this whole beautiful network of people that you get to go and visit and that you're excited to see, and you know that you get to surprise there's a benefit of having a long distance friendship. You get to surprise them sometimes.

And you know what that is One of the highlights of my life is seeing the reactions from my friends when you know, you pop up in their city and you get this amazing weekend together. So there are many many upsides. Another big upside is it's just that you get to love them for longer and you get to see each other change through this new period of your friendship.

And I think that that is something that some people don't get and it's a real testament to the strength and the care and the love that you have for each other. So I hope that this episode has helped you in this kind of weird universal experience of managing distance and friendship into the two worlds kind of combining. There are so many ways to keep the spark alive, so I hope it has inspired you. Feel free to send this to your long distance best friend. Send it

to them right now. They might need these tips. Maybe it's a really great way to get on the same page, to reignite something that has kind of felt a little bit stale for a while. Whatever it is, I'm sure they would love to hear from you. Anyways, make sure that you are following us on Spotify. It just means that you know when we post new episodes, and we have some exciting ones coming out. Feel free to rate us to leave a comment you would like, and I

hope you guys are getting excited. We have twelve days of guests coming up very very soon as we ender December. I cannot wait to announce who our guests will be this year. Until next time, stay safe, stay kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very very soon.