Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.
Today is International Women's Day, and I thought what better way to celebrate than to bring my mum on the show to discuss motherhood, feminism, being a leader, a successful woman in a male dominated industry, all of the above. She is a pretty cool lady and my personal hero. I know that sounds cliche, but I am super lucky to have had such a wonderful role model who has a lot of wisdom to share, and I thought you guys could benefit from some of that wisdom as well.
This episode is part of Iheart's International Women's Day initiative called Women Take the Mic. You can find a bunch of other interviews just like this one by so Women Take the Mic wherever you get your podcasts. Let's jump into the interview. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here. Back for another episode as we break
down the psychology of our twenties. Today, we're going to be doing something a little bit different. I know I say that every guest is my favorite, but honestly, this one I think kind of has to take the cake by obligation because they are blood. I thought, it's International Women's Day today. Who better to talk to who is
more my hero than my own mother? So today I'm bringing on my mum to come and have a chat with me as we talk about mother daughter dynamics, motherhood, being a successful woman in business as she is, and feminism and all the good things that come with it. So, hey, Mom, how you going? Hey Jim, you were saying to me that you were nervous before this.
I'm a bit nervous. Why Ah, because I probably haven't been well.
I haven't been interviewed by you before, and it's a different dynamic.
And of course you know I want to do well by you.
Oh my god, you want to impress the listeners.
Well, I just I don't want to let you down. I don't.
I don't want to come across as not being worthy of your wonderful pod.
Oh that's okay. I will defend you to the death. If anyone says anything, I'll be like, that's my mother you're talking about. So block deleted. I honestly think this will be a great chat because we have a good relationship both as a mother and daughter and as kind of friends as well.
Yeah me too, I'm looking I'm looking forward to it. It's just it's a different dynamic for me.
Yeah, I'm in charge. Yeah, you're in my turf.
I can't hang up.
You can't hang up with blood related So I wanted to bring you on because obviously it's International Woman's Day, and I was thinking, let's do a special episode this, Let's do an episode talking about what it means to be a woman, to identify as a woman, and part of what comes with that is also like a discussion around like our relationship with our mothers and a relationship with our parents and all these other things. How like our childhood informs the women that we grow up to be.
And I thought that we could do a little deep dive into what it was like for you to become my mom. Because I'm the oldest daughter, you're also the oldest daughter, and just like what I was like as a child, what it was like becoming a mother, like I said, and then what it's like to run a business basically, which you do well. You're a CEO.
So that's like, well, certainly plenty to talk about.
Yeah, I'm going to start with a hard hitting question. Okay, go for it, because I wanted to know this as well. What was I like as a child? Do you remember? Be embarrassed if you don't know.
The funny thing is you really do remember.
And I suspect that there's I need to be a bit careful because of course memories change over time, and you think you remember certain things. I'm sure you remember some things differently to the way I remember them.
We can get to that. But actually, the really.
Interesting thing is when I sort of think back on you and your sisters, I've got really clear memories of the days each of you were born, my sort of very clear first impressions of each of you, and and it was it's funny.
You're all different.
I remember, so what I remember of you the day you were born, and by the way you had to come in, you know, with the bang. You were an emergency as a child.
So so there was that, There was that.
But the thing I remember was in amongst all of this sort of calm chaos, was was you sort of sort of coming out with these big eyes, just sort of slowly blinking at the world as if to say, you know, where am I?
What? What if I come to?
But not not crying so much and just sort of, you know, trying to sort of focus straight out of the gate, trying to focus on what was around you and trying to make sense of it is what it felt.
Like, Oh I can't remember that.
But yeah, and then you know you were quiet as as a little baby for the first week or so, but that changed.
But the other thing too, is that I think.
The other really strong kind of recollection for me was that very early on you realize that your kids come out with their own personalities. And because I too had done a bit of psychology in my time, I think there's that whole nature versus nurture sort of thing that goes through, and I think you start off thinking, you, you know, you're going to be this amazing.
Parent and it's all going to be nurture.
But you know, probably because you are a first it was a pretty overwhelming kind of sense of, oh, this little person has come out you know, with a sent with their own sense of who they are, their own personality, and then.
What were you like as a kid. I've you know, you were strong minded.
Oh that hasn't changed much.
I know it hasn't, but you were.
You really had strong views even as a youngster. But you were happy and as the first child. For us, the biggest thing was you were a sleeper. And my GOLLI gosh, we love that.
That's so cute. I love that you said I came out and I was quiet for the first week, and the irony being now I literally talk on the internet for my job, which is so funny. And I am a bit of a yapper obviously. I love a yar. I love a yar.
You were just a quiet little Mulu when you were just a wee little baby.
And I was your favorite obviously for the first five years at least.
Well you as about and I say you're a favorite oldest daughter.
Yeah, that's so diplomatic. I still think that you'll have a favorite. You just can't say. And I think that I'm yours, hopefully my younger sisters, hopefully Elli and Hannah a listening.
Yeah, well I'm going to assume they are.
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. So this is the thing. I feel like, how old were you when you had me, you were thirty two, right, thirty three? Thirty three? Okay, so you were like well and well into your thirties, but you were like my age, like nine years older than I am now.
Yep.
And that's like insane to me to think that I would be ready to have a child in nine years, like, let alone in like fifteen. What was like the biggest lesson you learned having children? Did you actually always want children even when you were younger.
Yeah, I always wanted kids even when I was younger. You know, it's interesting because like thirty three is you know, it's not young to be having kids.
Yeah, in the spirit of turtle frankness, you know, this took us a while to get pregnant with you.
I don't need the Internet to know that.
Well, but it's you know, and it's just it is one of those things that yeah, we you know, we were keen to have kids. You know, life, you find your partners at whatever age. Other things kind of happen, and you know, you I think one of the one of the things that I was thinking about and in terms of this conversation, was how people think about when to have kids.
And you know, for me, it was when I met.
Your dad, and you know, we went overseas and did some things and then came home to Australia and we're keen to start a family, and you know, we feel blessed to have three kids.
But it's not always a straight line. I definitely felt.
Very ready to be having kids, but it comes with a lot of you know a lot of ups and downs too, and things that you don't know what happens through pregnancies and whatever, and.
So yeah, we're you know, was I ready? I was?
But then in some ways, I guess you're never ready because you never know what's going to happen. And that's part of the challenge, is the uncertainty of it all.
Was it harder when we were younger or is it harder now now that we're because we're a lot of us were I flew the nest pretty young. I left tar when I was like seventeen. But Ellie and Hannah are like getting to the point where they're about to leave. Has been that Has that been difficult? Being like, oh am I no longer having that role that you've had for twenty four years.
I think it's one of the other things you do learn when you have kids.
And maybe I think about this because you know, you know, I was a working mum for big chunks of you know, your younger life, and your sisters as well, and particularly you know, when you were in primary school, and I think there's a sense that when kids are really young, they really need their parents, and they do for certain things.
But you know, I found when you.
Were in high school and your sisters as they've gotten older, that you continue to need your parents, but in different ways and for different things, and that sense changes. But I kind of thought that, you know, there was times when you guys were in high school, for instance, where you needed your parents around just as much as you
did when we were in primary school. And so I think that's maybe one of the I don't know if myths is the right word, but there's so much focus on, you know, being there for kids when they're younger, and actually I think the pressure is there all the way through and just being clear about that and recognizing you have to try to find a way to be there for your kids no matter what else is going on.
It's just one of the you know, one of the challenges but also one of the great joys of being a parent when when you feel like you are doing that and hopefully your kids, I think you're doing that well.
It's so interesting because I feel like for a lot of my teenagers, I didn't really need you, well at least I thought I didn't need you. And then as soon as I went to university, and then actually like probably the second year of university, like the first year, I really was like I don't need my parents, Like I am a big girl, I am an adult now
I live independently. And then it was like, oh, you get older, and it's like reversal and you're like, oh my gosh, I really need my mom and I'm like, I really like it's kind of coming back to the nest, Like it's such a big thing in your twenties that you fly the nest and you go off and you do your own thing. But then I think that the further along on that journey, the more you're like, actually, I want to come home, like and I want to see my parents and I want to call my parents.
And I remember it was like my first like big heartbreak when I was at Uni that I was like suddenly so much more reliant on you guys. In a way that I didn't feel like I had been since I was a kid.
Because I mean, I think you know, I've seen it in your sisters and well as well.
Of course, you go through phases of where you're.
Really independence is really important to you, and it's it's the actual independence, and I think it's the perception of
independence as well. But I think you know, from my perspective, just being around sometimes is important then, so, you know, because I think it allows you to sort of go often and live your life, but knowing that if you need it, it's there, and even if you don't necessarily acknowledge it, I think there's a sense that you know, you your parents can provide a bit of a foundation and you know if you do need to come back
or need support, we're there. But it's you know, the flip side is it's it's fantastic as a parent to see your kids going off and doing that. And then yeah, hopefully at different stages the perception or whatever of that independence becomes less important and you and that's the whole thing about your relationship kind of ebbs and flows and evolves, and it's yeah, it's a nice thing.
What's been the hardest part about being a mother.
Yeah, it's a good question.
I mean, I think in all honesty, it's the sort of vulnerability and the uncertainty of it.
Like you just, you know, with a partner, there's an element of it.
But when you you know, when you have kids and you just love them so much and care for them so much, it's that you know what them go out into the world, and the equal measure of wanting them to be independent and excited and exploring the world and doing everything that you did, but you know, also sort of probably having a greater understanding of all the things that can go wrong, and just that balance of.
Just you know, there's always just that little bit of fear.
You never want harm or sadness or anything to come to your kids, but that's not the way they can live their lives. So it's just that uncertainty, and it's you know, it brings great excitement and emotion and joy, but every now and then, you know you're white knuckling in a bit.
Really. It's so interesting because I even feel that way towards Hannah and Ellie, like my sisters, where Ellie is going to UNI, and I think about what my first two years of UNI are like, and I want her to have those experiences, but I also know like how chaotic and sometimes awful they were, and I'm like, maybe I'll just protect you from them, Like maybe you could just be a little girl, little a little maybe for a little bit longer and like not have those that independence.
And I'm like, I feel that towards my sister. I can't imagine what that would feel like as a mother, being like I gave birth to this child who was now like doing like off in the world, and I like don't know where they are, don't know what they're doing at all times. What was like an experience where you said you'd be like white knuckling.
It, Oh, it's you know this thing, Well, I don't know. You go overseas and you know, I'm.
Thinking about that time I was in ampsinem and I called you and was like I'm dying possibly. And I wasn't even like on anything. I wasn't I know the connotations of like being an ampsinam. I was just like really tired, and I was like, I'm dying. I've decided like my anxiety and I called you guys like three am well.
And it was it was the you know it was that like, maybe white.
Knuckling is the wrong way to describe it, but there is a certain sense that when your phone rings in the middle of the night. You know, once you've kids, that that has a certain you leap to. You can leap to the wrong conclusion and so your heart so it's racing. You calm yourself down, but then you know there was an element of it would have been nice if you'd phone the next day to remind us that you're okay.
No, no, that's not how it works. I was too, So I was eighteen and selfish. I wasn't gonna let you guys know I was okay.
But but the other thing, too, is just the emotional sort of stuff and the emotional hurt. And so that's why, you know, white knuckling is not the right term. But
you do expose yourself to feeling it. You know, you've experienced it yourself, but then to watch other people who you care about go through some of that stuff, which is just it's just life, but you know it's it's not it's not easy to see other people go through that and to be sad or to be you know, to be hursh and in some ways really the emotional stuff is harder than you know, going to get the
stitches or whatever else. And you know, we've had conversations about this that you know, we try to do the right thing. We tried to raise each of you as independent people who could make their own decisions and who were resilient to those challenges. And sometimes it meant, you know,
letting you find your way a bit. And I'm sure that felt hard and it was hard to watch and experience as well, but you've got to, you know, it's always trying to walk that line of doing things that you know, trying to be the parent that sets you up for success in your future, which sometimes you know comes across, as you know, not necessarily being the kindest or most protective parent at different stages when you're younger.
I know exactly what you're referring to. And I remember being in primary school and all of the people, all of my friends had these like helicopter parents who had a drop of the heart would.
Be there to fix.
Things for them, and you guys were not those parents. You were like, oh, you're having problems with school, great, go and talk to your teacher, deal with it, like not that callous You won't like deal with it, like get out of our face, we don't want to hear from you. But it was like that thing, right, did have a point where I was like, gosh, I wish that my mom was just like a bit more angry
on my behalf. And I'm sure you were, but you were like and now I'm super grateful for the fact that you made me be a problem solver and independent because it's I think a big part of my personality. But that was definitely times where I was like, gosh, I do just want my mom to scream at someone for me.
Well, there were times when can I just say that little bit of independence which usually your dad let you exercise more than me. There were moments when I similarly went to pick you up from childcare and thought what is she wearing or what is she doing? And then packing your own lunch that had its highs and lows as.
Well, Oh yeah, what was what? Did I pack? Junk food?
Well? Just yeah, fair few crackers.
Yeah, dah, I was growing girl, I was hungry. I was sharing them. I don't know what. So this is like a hot, hot question, but you have three daughters, did you ever want a son?
Oh?
Yeah, so interesting, isn't it.
Look I think you're always I think you always sort of think, oh, you know, one of each, you know, at least like having one of each in the family, not necessarily just two kids.
But yeah, I think you do. But can I be really honest.
And say, well, for starters, I reckon With every one of my pregnancies, at least at one stage someone told me that I was having a boy, and no one ever told me I was having girls. But like with you, we were walking down the street in Fitzroy one morning and this Italian NNA came from across the street, like walked, you know, one hundred meters from across the street, came up to me and said.
It's a boy. So that was pretty funny.
And when I was pregnant with Hannah, I definitely thought she was a boy, just because she behaves so differently in the womb to the rest of you, because she was a little pocket rocket in there. But so after you, and like after you and Ellie, I have to say my greatest fear was that I was going to have a boy, because I was like, okay, I've got two girls now I think I understand them, and a boy is just gonna like throw me off now, but I.
Think it's this is going to sound like such a cliche, but.
And in all honesty, because after you were born, like you know, the whole the emergency sees a thing was a moment and at the time it was, you know, our doctor was fantastic. But when I look back, I thought, wow, that was a moment, and from then on you do just sort of think, well, I'm just I just feel blessed to have healthy kids, you know.
So that's the truth of it.
So I you didn't know what gender, did you? Was it a all three?
Yeah?
No, way, I didn't know that. Yeah, oh that's so cute.
But also the funny thing is that each time around we had three names for boys, but only one name for a girl.
So they knew someone in the someone in the universe knew. So that's actually really interesting. I had no idea. But I do also think you didn't have sons, but you raised us like sons. I've said this since I was like younger. I'm like, you guys raised us like boys in a very like traditional stereotypical way that people raise children like boys. Just letting us get into so much mischief. We were always dirty. I'm pretty sure I only wore boys clothes for a long time. Buzz light your T shirt.
Buzz light your outfits, honey, don't just say T shirts. You were the full kitten kaboodle.
Yeah. Well I was a super fan.
I was.
I was a stan I loved that man.
Yea.
But yeah, I just feel like there were so many ways that you guys kind of raised us without like an idea of gender. Like I maybe I'm just being remembering things that I want to remember them, but I don't remember having dolls. I think also was the fact that maybe, like the general you're lying now, come on, really, what doll did I have?
Oh?
My goodness, come on? What did you used to do to your barbies?
Oh? I made weird Barbie. I used to cuddle the hair off. Yeah, and their fingers as well. I went the astra mark definitely.
I don't remember the fingers, but you definitely were queen of the Barbie haircut.
These were punk rocker barbies.
Yeah.
I think one of the things too, that I've come to really appreciate, and you know, you make the decisions you do in terms of work and life and all the rest of it. But I've really come to the view that the fact that your dad's you know, spent a lot of time at home with each of you, and it was very clear for you, I think from my perspective, and I think it's because there were fewer men in the playground at the time, but having a father at homes, he'd let you take more risks, There's
no doubt about it. And he was much more comfortable with that. And I can there were so many times when I talk about white knuckling, actually watching you race to the corner of the footpath on your bike every time, as you just scream down the street on your bike, I just used to think, oh my gosh, I hope she stops in time.
And it's the same for all of yours, you know, each of your sisters.
But you know, Bart was just he let you guys, you know, jump and run and climb, and you know he was famous in the I mean I remember coming around the corner of the playground at the school and seeing all of the mums kind of standing in a semi circle with their mouths open, and I knew what was going on, and it was Bart standing there throwing kids in the air, and they had this kind of half happy, half terrified look on their face, and it just so explains the difference of you know, I think
how you guys were raised.
Well, it's true because dad was a stay at home dad for our childhood. I knew that was a period where you were you stayed at home but you were still working. But he was like a full stay at home dad. And I know I'm talking about you, but that there was definitely moments that I remember being a kid where he faced a lot of discrimination for that, whilst you probably also face a lot of discrimination for being a working mum. Like neither of you had it
easy to kind of subvert the gender norms. The one I always think of is the time that that woman wouldn't let her daughter come over because she thought he was a sex offender or something like that.
It was someone who yeah, did I won't repeat it because it was illegal. It was illegal, Yeah, and it was, but yeah, he faced that. It was Yeah, he faced that.
But equally, I'm not sure if you remember this, It was this was when I went to when I just started this period, so there's about five years when I was predominantly the stay at home parent. You were in high school by then, but your sisters were in primary school.
And I remember going to a birthday party that one of Ellie's friends was having, and we were at that indoor playground and I arrived to the party and the woman who was hosting it, you know, sort of said to me, oh, you know, who's who's your child?
And I said Ellie And she said well, she goes, oh, are you are you Bat's wife?
And I said yes and she said oh, And all along I just thought he was this lovely single dad.
Oh my gosh, And I just thought embarrassing for her.
Oh, it's just it was just really brutal. And I thought, what and what do I think about all your mums who come and pick your kids up? And so it just it'spun both ways.
Yeah, it really did.
Yeah, but I'm glad that it happened that way because I feel like we've got a really unique childhood and now it's so much more common. But back then, like it was so weird, like early early two thousands to see like a stay at home dad. It was.
It was.
It was a tough gig, it was, and both ways, like it was very hard for him, very lonely, to be honest, but and look, I don't you know, I'm not trying to say it was better or words for either of us, but it was.
It was equally frustrating.
If you'd rock up in the school yard, you know, I'd drop you off at school, and I'd be in a suit and on my way to work, and people would stop and ask me if I was coming to the book reading at eleven thirty. And you know, in contrast that the dads who were dropping off in their suits, no one expect everyone knew where they were going. They were all going to work, and they didn't get They got praise for making time to drop their kids off, and they weren't asked, you know, are you going.
To stay longer?
And it sounds like a small thing, but there was always a bit of It.
Was hard not to feel a little bit of guilt.
Yeah, or like feel like they're being like, oh, you're you're like a failure as a mother because you're not sticking around and win.
Because I haven't. I haven't made the time for that. It was it just felt like that was the message.
Here's the thing. I don't remember single book reading, so I don't think it mattered that you weren't there. You were there for the important things.
Yeah, well I think I hope that that's the case.
But definitely, regardless, you have to make the you make the decisions that have to work for you know, your family, and it's a combination of a whole bunch of things, and it's you know, you've got to have income and you know, ideally you have a house to live in and financial security and you know you've got to you just make those choices and they're not set and forget
you kind of ebb and flow with that. But I think the hard the hard part, and the thing you probably get a bit more perspective on when you get a bit older, is that those opinions don't really matter, And yeah, you just got to You've got to glide past them a little bit and know that you're making the best decisions that you can, you know, and there's no you're never going to do it perfectly.
Well, well, that kind of leads to my next question. Do you think you made any mistakes? Would you do anything differently?
Did we make mistakes? One hundred and one mistakes?
Yeah, I name a couple. I want something to blame you about I want something to hold over your head.
Well, there's there's there's I don't know, there's lots of little things.
You go back and you you know, partly you say things or you phrase something in a particular way, and you know, you don't think.
About it, but it lands, it gets hurt in a particular way.
And and you know when your kids recount things back to you, you didn't mean it that way, or you didn't the context, you saw the context differently. There's there's one hundred and one little things like that, and you know, all sorts of stuff. And I don't look back and think that there's one major thing that we did.
You know, we.
But you know that you didn't get everything right. And whether it was what you did or the tone that you did it with in the time, you just know that. But would you do anything differently? I think that's a hard I mean, in some ways, I think it's a hard question or even a harsh question, because you know, you do the best that you can at the time, and you know, I think one thing that's very hard on parents, if I'm honest, is that there's so much
else going on. There's so much other context that your kids don't know about, nor should they, but it does mean that sometimes, you know, you come home from work, there's been a lot of stuff going down. There's a lot of stress or anxiety related to other things that you don't necessarily want to share with your kids, but it does inform some of the decisions you make or how you communicate them. And at the time, you know, I don't think your kids appreciate it.
When you grow up, I think you do.
But yeah, that's all in the mix. On a lighter note, I'll give you an example. Yeah, Ellie teases me all the time because I'm not sure if you remember this, but you know, I used to sing songs to you guys when I was putting you to bed, and Ellie in particular, always just wanted to sing along.
She's so cute.
She's still like that, but I just wanted to I just wanted to go to sleep. And so she teases me now about the fact that I would be quite firm on the like, no, you're not to.
Sing the songs with me, And she says, you're singing all.
These cute songs and all I wanted to do was sing along, But you would say no, you've got to go to bed now, So maybe.
I'm so cute. Maybe on reflection, I would have done that differently.
That's so cute because it's like, I forget that although we each grew up together, I'd never heard that, like we had such different memories of like our interactions with you.
That's so cute.
Oh my god, she's adorable.
But I'm going to say she also well, I mean, so here's the other thing.
So I'm trying to get her to sleep, because Hannah, of course didn't sleep at all. And so when she's recounting these stories, like we're in year one of a five year stage of you know, youngest daughter not sleeping so many nights.
I'm going to ask you a few more questions around motherhood. And I want to ask whether you think that you were a feminist mother. Not just a feminist, but were you a feminist mother.
So this is a really interesting question for me because for a couple of reasons. One because I actually think I've become more of a feminist as I've gotten older, and if I think about it in the context of not just being someone who believes in equal rights and lives that way and hopefully raises their girls that way, and I'll come back to it, but.
I've probably i'd probably be a bit.
Critical of me in terms of being a really strong advocate for other women. So I think in the way I lived, in the things I did. But if I think about, you know, feminist feminist, being an advocate and a really strong advocate for all women, I'm not sure i'd give myself a huge score on that, to be honest. So I'd look back and think I could have done more or have been more vocal and in different circumstances. But in terms of how I raised being a feminist mother, yeah,
I think so. And yeah, and I think, you know, in terms of being an advocate for each of you, both as individuals but also as girls and young women, Yeah, I do.
I do think so.
Yeah, I would say so as well. I do think that like this, but the brand of feminism that we had when we were younger was very white feminism. But I think also that was like just what was there
at the time. Like I always think about like Hillary Clinton as that as like an example, but I also think that, like it's just like the process of unlearning your white feminism in a way, especially like where we lived, you know, we lived in like in Australia, in inner city Australia, where like the discussions about like intersectionality weren't being had back in like two thousand, like the early twenty tens. But now I feel like you're such a
good example. Also, I feel like you're not giving yourself enough credit there, Like you being an advocate. I think you did a lot more than most other people. Think about all your friends, Like you have so many strong female friends who you advocate for in so many ways.
Yeah, look, I appreciate that I do.
There's just some things I've learned on the way through and some things in leadership roles where if I was being honest, you know, I think I could have done more and maybe I came late to some of the things that I should have been, you know, doing more of and being much more supportive and more demonstrably supportive I think, and just recognizing the importance of that over demonstration of being a champion or supporter of people, not having it be sort of implied or assumed.
M M. How do you think that our relationship has changed as I've become an adult? Do you think we've gotten closer?
Yeah?
No, I definitely think so. But I think it's one of those things that, yeah, I don't know, like it's I think you're it's just a different type of closeness, right, Like there's maybe a weird word, but there's an intimacy when you're with your kids when you're younger, and a closeness and a and a dependency that that's you know, that's really close, right, and and a lot of fun in that and that you know, that fun piece is a closeness that's pretty unique to that younger state when
your kids are younger, and it's it's just lovely. But you know, as your kids grow up and certainly with you, you know, being able to have grown up conversations and you know what I think it is is being able to.
Experience and appreciate that respect. And you know, there's not a.
Lot of people that you go through life with where you just really look at them and think, I really.
Respect who you are as a person, and well.
And I've got you know, I feel lucky to have a lot of really good friends who I do really respect, but you know, there's not that many people. And anyway, it's fun to sort of have been a part of that and to have seen you grow up and then to have so much respect and appreciation and admiration for what you've done. And I guess, to be honest, if I'm being a little bit egotistical, you sort of feel like you're a little bit.
Of part of that and it's very special.
I do like to give you guys a lot of credit. I will say, Oh.
I don't like I don't want too much. It's just it's just that little bit where you sort of like every now and then, ah, yeah, she's mine.
I think Dad does it more than you do. No comment diplomatic. Do you find it weird when you know when I was like in my as I got into my early twenties, did you find it weird when I would talk about my relationships or like sex or anything like that. Was that weird? Because I feel like there was a point where it kind of yeah, I don't know, I was like, am I treating my mom more like my friend or like my mom?
Yeah? I didn't find it weird.
I mean occasionally there was an early podcast that I'm not sure if you remember this, but you said something along the lines of, oh, my parents might be listening, and I jokingly was saying, yeah, I rang you up and said yes, I'm listening, which you know, of course was not contemporary, but nonetheless, so every now and then there's maybe a bit, you know, too much information. I think the hardest part is that I was probably I'm very close to my mum, your grandma, you know that.
And we probably share more information now.
But when I was younger, so it was me and my brother, but I had a step brother and a stepsister and that sort of mixed marriage, and you know, my mum and my stepfather were sort of off, kind of building their own life together, and the easiest thing for me to do was just you know, play my cards close to my chest.
So I didn't share a lot of information.
It wasn't really letting anyone know what I was up to live in my own life. And like you, I was at UNI when I was seventeen and so and then you know, my parents moved into State, so I was, like you, really independent, but in a kind of flip scenario, if you like. And so I probably wasn't sharing as much as information, and you know, I think it was just getting used to what you were prepared to sort of share as well. It wasn't that it was right
or wrong or I felt uncomfortable. It was just different to perhaps the way I had been at that age, and so just a bit of getting used to that.
That's so interesting are the things you don't want to hear.
Maybe there's maybe a bit of day information that before the not to be named boyfriend arrived on the scene, that I went a little bit whilst not wanting to look uninterested, was a bit la la la in my brain.
I feel like I'm very good where i'd like, I don't talk talk about them buying name or introduce you until it's like serious, like until we've been dating for at least six months. So I feel like my current boyfriend slash just not in my current my boyfriend will be for a long time. That just kind of like popped onto the scene and then you, guys, I think I mentioned him and then you met him like a month later.
Yeah, that's fine, it was it's more, I mean, if I'm being really honest, it's not that it's more the the more casual relationships.
Oh you didn't approve.
It's not that I didn't approve. I just didn't need to know about them.
Yeah, I'm just gonna say this for the listeners. The information that I was giving my mom was like, oh, a man was at my house last night, and you'd be like, ah, no, no, he wasn't.
God, that's true. That's not true.
The funny one was when I picked you up on a Saturday morning because we were flying back to Melbourne for Grandma's birthday and you were furiatively texting someone in the backseat of the uber, which was the person who was still.
At your place. Did you know that, Yeah, because you.
Ended up having to tell me because I couldn't figure out what all the texting was going on about.
Yeah, that was Oh my god, I completely forgot about that.
Oh yeah, that's so true. That did happen. And the thing was, you know what it was was this was it was actually not good because my house where I'm moving out literally today, but my current house, once you're in the house and the door is locked, you can't get out without a key, and it's metal bars all over the windows, all over the doors and the hall of the doors were locked and there were no keys in the house and my roommates weren't coming back until
that evening, so I accidentally locked that man in my house for eight hours before he could get out, and I was and I was like, we were running late for our flight. I was like, and well, obviously he's not around anymore. So I'm not gonna say I'm gonna be like, sorry, but can you imagine if he was listening, Sorry, I locked you in my house for eight hours. That's
so funny. That's so funny. Business. I want to talk about work because I was very lucky that I had a mother like you, who was very very independently successful. No NEPO babies here. You worked very very hard, but you also to very unconventional way to success like you got. You know, it was crazy to hear when I first went to Union that you actually got asked to leave your university. You got kicked out from the economics department. And now you are an economist and you are a
very good economist and you're also a CEO. What do you think with some of the hardest parts about breaking into that male dominated industry.
Well, first of all, let's not just slide over.
Getting kicked out of UNI, because I do actually think
it's an important message. I think there's so much pressure on people at high school and in their twenties around, you know, going to union, just doing everything, getting amazing grades, you know, paying for a life that's more and more expensive by the day, you know, and doing all the extracurricular stuff so that you end up with a CV that gets you into a job that you want, right And I just think this, you know, there's just so much pressure on I think, and to understand where you're
going and what.
You think you should be doing.
So I actually make a point of talking about the fact that it took me, you know, quite a few years to get through UNI. I was fortunate didn't cost what it costs to you guys now, but I did fail two years of university because I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I actually started off doing a psychology degree double degree and really struggled, and I was doing a whole bunch of sport and athletics and just didn't know what I wanted to do. Decided
I didn't want to be a clinical psychologist. But yeah, it was just sort of floundering.
You know.
When I came out of UNI, I couldn't I couldn't get a job interview because your agrees were so bad.
My transcript was crap, And yeah, I'd done all these other things, and I'd worked and I you know, I had competed successfully in athletics and blah blah blah. But you know, it was just on a wing at a pres for me to go, well, those grades don't reflect who I really am, and they're like, well whatever. So I took a year off and worked for a little while,
traveled overseas, which was a great experience. You know, I met some people who just didn't have the opportunities that I had, including a young woman studying economics, you know, in in Turkey of all places, who was just never going to have the opportunities that I had. And so I came back and started studying again to sort of show that I could get through it, and then ended
up really enjoying it. So I guess, you know, at the risk of sort of waffling on a bit about it, I do think it's an important message for people to life isn't a straight line, and as long as you're sort of learning and growing and heading in a direction that you're enjoying, you know, just keep going with it and when it stops working, then go and do something else.
It's so interesting because you have lived so many lives that like I wasn't there for Like I always think about how, you know, I've known you my entire life, but you only known me for the last twenty four years, and there were all these things that happened before me that you have like a little wisdom from, like you were my age once and like just going through the insane level of like confusion and like big life changes.
And I do think that's a really nice message, and I think that's one that you really always instilled in us of like there is not a clear blueprint for what creates a good life. You're allowed to like take time to figure it out. And obviously we're all kind of doing that now. Like what is this job? I don't know what this This wasn't a job when I was a kid, Actually it kind of was. Do you remember we used to always listen to the radio This American Life. I love that show. So I feel like
that was such a huge inspiration. Did you experience a lot of like imposter syndrome going back to UNI or when you were applying for jobs again because your transcript was so not great?
Well, it's really it's really funny like on imposter syndrome. Yes, all through my career and you know I've done, I've chopped and changed a little bit and absolutely like I can like like imposter syndrome when I started my first job, because I started at Federal Treasury, and you know, to get in there was challenging and there were you know, my co cohort of grads was just so impressive. Like in some ways, I was pretty focused on what I
wanted to get out of that. I had a really clear objective and so in some ways I kind of ignored a whole bunch of other stuff, like if I'm really honest, and you know, back to the question about feminism or whatever, Like I had a goal and I just ran hard at it, and in some ways I was you know, people sort of said to me, well, you were sort of singular focus on that opportunity, you know.
Was probably too much and whatever.
But you know, I don't think they would have said that if I was a man, to be honest, and.
It worked no way, So it didn't work you are now. But so it was like you were doing economics, which at the time a bit of a boys game. And then also business is like the commerce kind of the commerce side of it as well.
Yeah, I mean, I think.
Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. I also wanted to come back on the imposter syndrome and my results. When I was interviewed for Treasury, the person who was interviewing me asked me precisely once about those my results and they and they said, what happened here?
And I told them and that was it and never, what.
Did you say, You're just like I just didn't know what I wanted.
Yeah, I said, I was doing all these other things. I had way too much on. I didn't know what I wanted. I was floundering.
I came back with intent and here's the results, and
that was fine, and sorry to come back. The reason I wanted to come back to that is because fast forward a few years later, when I was actually interviewing graduates for Treasury, there's a bunch of people being put on piles who whose results kind of looked a bit like mine, and I wanted to interview one or two of them, and a few people in the room were just like, no way, And so I fessed up and said, well, you wouldn't have I wouldn't be here, like, don't.
You want to know.
Like, there's one person in particular, I was looking at their results and they'd gone from really poor results to just knocking out of the pack, and I said, don't you want to know what happened there? Don't don't you because that switch has flipped and I want to know what's gone on and what this person is up to because that's the person I want to talk to. And so again, it was just a kind of an interesting life lesson if you like.
Boys jobs. Yeah, like I.
Probably Treasury, there were fair few female grads, and you know, we were very focused on making sure we continue to recruit them. So yes, it was male dominated. It was more that I had opportunities to be in really interesting meetings where everyone who is more senior.
Was male, and that was good. It's I don't.
Know, maybe this is a funny side bar, but my name's Melinda. People sometimes call me mel but at work and particularly at Treasury. When I was at Treasury, that's when I decided that people had to call me Milinda because.
Because mel sounds like a mail nate as well Mel Gibson, and that was too dismissive.
Oh really, I went into my male boss introduced me one day and said, oh, this is mel and it was just sort of this, it was just a throwaway line, and I thought, I can't have that throwaway line, and so so.
You needed the extra syllables for the extra legitimacy.
Well it was, but it was just all part and parcel of how you presented.
Yeah, I actually agree with that.
So I just thought I can't have him just saying that, and you know, we work closely together, but it just felt like it was a trivialization of my introduction.
So yeah, so you're kind of like at this point in your career now where you just I'm sure you feel pretty secure, like you're a bit of a boss bitch. It's true though, and I know that like that word like like she is such a boss, Like what is it like, go a boss? It's girl boss. Is kind of funny because it's no like, yeah, it's used very dismissively,
like you're a girl boss. But having come through so many stages and like, I don't think you're going to retire anytime soon, unless you you are, and then that's a surprise for me. What advice would you give me right now at this stage in my career, and I know it's very different to what you're what you were doing at twenty four. Like you hadn't even graduated at twenty four, had you know, you wouldn't have you would have just gotten your master's.
Oh I graduated a couple of degrees.
Oh, but what would you do now? What advice would you give me at this stage?
Well?
Can I can I ask a slightly different question? And then what can I respond to a question you haven't asked? And then I'll respond to that.
Question you're asking the questions now you're taking over the show, Well you can if you want. Now I'm joking, you can totally do that.
The one thing reference to sort of being.
The sort of boss bitch language or whatever, or labeled girl boss or whatever you want to call it, like I do.
I think I did want to say, there's one.
Thing I've really enjoyed about leading an organization is being able to sort of set the tone and the values. And I think people can think about a whole bunch of things that being a CEO means or whatever, and there's a lot of there's different responsibilities. But probably the one thing I didn't really think about and underestimated was that was the sense of satisfaction that you get out of kind of being able to set the tone for an organization.
And I think the reason that's.
I'm kind of I'm using as a bit of a segue into your question because I think it's like it's it's caused me to sort of reflect on how you set your tone through your career, and I guess that's
that would be my kind of advice. I guess is to you know, to think about, you know, who you are and what sort of person you want to be through the work that you do, and to not be necessarily confined by thinking about a particular role or a particular point in your career, but to you know, think about the things that you enjoy doing because you do them well and because you can have an impact whatever that is, and just that sort of tone and the values the way you want to live your life to
find ways to live that through work, and that's probably something that.
You gain a confidence to be able to do through your career.
And when I look back, you know, it's probably one of the things you feel less confident doing when you're you know, early on in a job or whatever that you sort of feel sometimes you have to behave a particular way. It will be in a particular role. And you know, I was a company director at a very young age. I was the only woman on the first boards i joined, and there's certainly a lot of pressure to sort of be the persona of that and and
I guess that's probably my bit of advice. If you can find a way to do that faster than I did, that would be my advice.
Or to find to find like your mission, well like you're like.
But also just just to be to be who you are and to know that that's you know, you don't have to be the you know, the the persona. You don't have to perform that role in the way other people have performed that role or be that person or and so it's just trying to be true to who you are as a person and bring that into your work. It's probably what i'd put on the table.
Thanks, mam. I appreciate the advice. Now. I think that's all the questions that I have. Are there any more questions you would like to ask yourself if you.
Feel the need No, no, no, that's it.
You're yeah, that's good. I'm glad. I feel like We covered a lot of bases here. We talked about the hood, we talk about we talked about feminism, we talked about how you were a terrible parent and everything. I have to blame you for just kidding. Nothing was the answer. So thank you so much for coming on absolute pleasure. I could think of nothing else I'd rather be doing. Yeah, well, I'll that's so sweet. Why did that make me embarrassed?
And like, oh, thanks mom? No, it was actually so nice, And I feel like it's so nice that we'll have this for like, it will be on the internet for a while and we can listen back to this when I'm thinking about putting you in a home or something.
Oh, you can just play it on repeat and I'll feel happy.
Oh, I'm not going to put you in a home. Do you want to be putting a home?
It depends, it depends. You may want to put me in home.
No, I won't for as long as possible.
I'm looking forward to coming and sleeping on your couch tomorrow.
Oh my gosh, yeah, my mum's coming to stay in my new place tomorrow. It's very comfy. I actually had a lie down on it before I tested it for you. Perfect I can't believe I'm making you sleep on the couch, but unfortunately the bed's taken.
Well.
Thank you again for coming on. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now, share it with a friend if they would like to hear it, And if you have any further episode suggestions questions for my girl boss mum, please feel free to dm me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast or my personal at gemmas Bag and we will be back next week for another episode.