Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, Wherever you are in the world, it's so great to have you here. Back for another episode as we break down the psychology of your twenties. We have a guest on today that I I pursued. I'm gonna say it that way. I pursued her. Sorry, Ellie, I just spoiled who you are, but you would have read it in the title. I was like, I need
this person on for this topic. She is the perfect person to discuss this, to discuss ADHD autism in our twenties. She has such a unique story and an incredible voice to this matter that I think is both personal but also very informed and a little bit different. So welcome Ellie Middleton. It's so great to have you here.
Thank you so much, so nice to be here. Thanks for the lovely introduction. I feel like I always sit here like blushing at the style and people are saying nice things about me.
I'm like, oh, yeah, that's me, Thank you so much.
No, I get that it's something you kind of have to learn to take sometimes. But imagine if someone like sat here and I was like, yeah, I'm not that keen on this, like, thanks for coming on. I guess like that would even more imparison. Yeah, that's true. And you're calling in from the UK, so we got like an international podcast crew going on here.
Yeah, I know worldwide.
I know, missus worldwides here. So I kind of introduced you briefly. You're Ellie Middleton. You have this incredible story. You've just released a book on Masked, which is available in the UK right now, hopefully by the time people are listening to this internationally because it's incredible. But for those of the listeners who don't know you, can you just talk briefly about who you are, your story, your work, kind of a free space to just chat Ellie, I.
Guess, yeah, thank you. So yeah, I'm Ellie.
I'm an artistic and ADHD content creator, speaker and writer. So I guess the short version is that I got diagnosed with both ADHD and autism when I was twenty four. So up until that point, I'd always struggled with my mental health, had quite a rough time in my teenage years, but I'd always been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and like anxiety related depression and panic disorder and agrophobia and
all that good stuff in the mental health space. But then when I was kind of twenty four, kind of realized that that didn't seem to really fit, like it wasn't really explaining my experiences properly. Like I wasn't an anxious person. I just became really overwhelmed really frequently, So it wasn't like anxiety, it was overwhelmed. But I think those two things are so closely linked that all the doctors I'd seen in the past had kind of just
assumed that it was anxiety. But yeah, anyway, when I was twenty four, I finally got diagnosed with both autism and ADHD, and getting those diagnoses just like changed my life completely, Like it just made everything made sense. It made me kind of understand who I was, and I kind of, I guess I've just felt so grateful that I got those answers that I was like, oh, my goodness, like I can finally like be myself now, I can finally like work out how to make my mental health
better like all of this stuff. That I just felt that there must be so many other people out there, especially women, who were like in the same boat that I was. So they had always been diagnosed with anxiety. They knew that they were different somehow, like they knew that something else was going on, but they just didn't know what that thing was, and they just never had been picked up by their doctors or their teachers or whatever.
It might be.
So I started speaking about it online, just like hoping, like knowing that, like if I'd have seen me speaking about it like a few years earlier, then it might have been like, oh, that kind of sounds similar to me, So maybe I should look into that as well, and maybe I would have got diagnosed like a whole lot
sooner than I actually did. So kind of wanted to try and at least like just make one person think, oh, maybe that that could be me, and I could go away and look into that as well, and then it
all kind of spiral from there, I guess. So I kind of very quickly grew quite a big audience online and then I go into quite a lot of companies talking about how they can be more inclusive, and then yeah, as very kindly mentioned, I've just written a book about it, which is like my baby is like the protesting that I've ever done. I'm so happy with it. I'm so
grateful that I've had the chance to do it. But yeah, I guess basically, I shout about the importance of like understanding the way that your brain works and like being gentle with yourself, but also kind of advocate for people having the chance to get those answers because so many people, like women, people marginalize their gender, people of color, where people especially are spending so much of their lives undiagnosed and just kind of being missed completely by the system.
So it's like honors to advocate for ourselves. So yeah, that's a a long and short version.
I guess I love it. It's really interesting what you said. What you just said about how you had this litany of diagnoses before you got to the right one, And I don't know if that's even the right way of saying it, Like it's almost like the answer seems quite obvious now. I'm sure like you're probably questioning, like, how come no one ever said this to me? How come it was never an option, how come it was never on the table. I'm sure that must have been so frustrating.
And speaking from like the experience of friends, I was saying, I had a close friend who was recently diagnosed. And when you said everyone just told me I was anxious, I just immediately thought of her and how much that that was always the reason given to her for this pattern of behaviors, this pattern of tendencies, and it wasn't the right answer. No one thought to look deeper into it. It must be like so mentally frustrating.
Yeah. I think there's like a couple of stories in particular from my childhood and teenage years that I look back now and I'm like, how the heck did nobody like notice what was going on there? Like there's one I think my mom like struggles with this one a lot, Like I think she feels a lot of guilt. When I'm an August baby, so I was always the youngest in my year group. In the Uki year group's run for I don't if it's same over there, but we run from like September to August. So I'm like the
youngest in my year. And when I was at nursery, so I was like three and the rest of the kids in my year were four and we were about to go up to primary school. The nursery teacher like pulled my mum in and was like Okay. Academically, Ellie's definitely ready to go up to school, Like she's really bright, she knows what's going on. But socially, you might want to consider holding her back a year.
Like she's very shy.
She doesn't really interact with the other kids, like she's just not really interested. Like we've tried to encourage her to play in their games and do all these different things, but all she really wants to do is like she just comes in every day and I would like sit in the same room, on the same table and just do like painting every single day. And that was all
that was interested in. And I look back at that now and it was kind of just like, oh, okay, well, you know, she's just the youngest girl in the year, so she's just a bit shy, Like it'll be fine, it'll come with age, Like it's no, like, no worry.
She's just like a shy little girl.
And I look back and I'm like, if that was like Elliott rather than Ellie or Ethan or whatever, it might be like a little boy, a young boy that is like very academically bright but struggles socially, does the same thing every single day, Like I don't know, he's lining up his dinosaurs in a row every single day. He doesn't want to talk to anybody. They've tried to encourage him to, like straight away, that would be like alarm bells. They'd be looking into it, they'd be trying
to find out what was going on. They'd be thinking that was autism. But because it was a little girl, it was like, oh, she's just a bit shy, Like it's fine, she's just a young girl. And it's like that was like I was three years old at that point. Like if I'd have been diagnosed at that point or even had it looked into at that point, like my
whole life could have been so much different. And then there's like kind of similar stories in high school where teachers were saying that, like I was being had a really hard time like socially and was kind of being bullied quite badly. And one of my teachers had said, like, oh, well, Ellie says things that are rude sometimes, so she can't be upset when other people are rude back to her.
And my mum was like, well, what does she say that's rude, because like she's not she's not a nasty person, like she wouldn't she wouldn't do that, and then be like, oh, well, she had got like an A rather than a star in one of her exams, and she was kind of saying to the other girls like, oh, I'm so annoyed that I didn't get the A star that I wanted, whereas some of the other girls had struggled to scrape a C or a D and they were like, that's
kind of, you know, inappropriate. You shouldn't be saying that, And I was like, well, I didn't know that that was rude. Like I'm not saying that they should have got an A or and a star. I'm just saying that I'm upset with myself and not being able to read those social cues is like a key sign of autism as well. But instead it was like, oh, no, she's just rude, she's just a bit, she's just whatever.
Like I think so much of it is closely tied to misogyny unfortunately, but yeah, I think looking back, there's like so many things where it is like, yeah, what the heck, Like it was literally like I might as well have had a neon sign flashing above my head. That was like this girl is autistic, But no one like ever kind of considered that that was what was going on.
It's so interesting you point to misogyny and how I think one of the deepest problems in how we approach neurodivergence, particularly ADHD and autism, is that the entire diagnoses criteria is built around the behavior of boys and the behavior of men. And we know that culturally those two you know, binaries that society often sees. They're raised different, they are taught differently as to how to behave their personalities, their
temperaments are different. But when you have this kind of systematic bias and the healthcare system, it's no wonder that people such as yourself slip through and it's kind of
a tragedy. And I know you're like, the things that you've done now is so amazing, But what if you had had the opportunity to start at that earlier, What if you had had that opportunity to actually get the help you need, not experience so much self blame and negative self belief when you were three, when you attend when you were fifteen, Like, I'm sure that's really rough. So I think you've kind of already touched on it.
But why do you think so many women in particular struggle to receive a diagnosis, have their symptoms recognized, and kind of alongside that, why is it always that they get the anxiety diagnosis first before people consider other options, other potential things going on.
Yeah, I think like you kind of nailed it really well there, that the diagnostic criteria is just not set up to account for the experiences of women, the experiences of people marginalized for their gender, the experiences of people
of color. They're based on basically, like the easy way to explain it is like the only people that these psychologists were basing the research on was like the young middle class white boys whose parents could have thought basically, if they had a young boy that wasn't behaving in the way that they wanted him to, they would pay to take him to this private psychiatrist. And then they
were the people that the research was based on. So anyone outside of that, their experiences are just not accounted
for in the diagnostic criteria. So I think one example, like for me, this is a question that I had to answer as a twenty four year old woman trying to get diagnosed, and the question is, like, you know, say, if this is like a highly highly true, a bit true, not true, or slightly true, whatever, And it's like I collect information about categories of things, for example, types of birds, types of planes, types of car, types of plants or something.
So me reading that question, I'm like, well, no, I don't collect information about any of those type of things. And then like the more research you do, it's like, well, yeah, that's because I'm not an eight.
Year old boy. I'm a twenty four year old woman.
Like I collect information about I don't know, if I like a certain band, I will listen to their albums over and over and over again. If I like a certain fashion creator, I will like constantly be checking to see if they've uploaded new content because I want to see what's going on. Or if I like a certain clothes brand, then I will like be obsessed with when the new drops are coming out and checking the website
and like wanting everything to do. Like I do still do the same thing of like having these really strong interests that I become like obsessed with, but they're just not birds, cars, trains, or planes, because they're very like
stereotypically like young boy interests. And I think that's like a really good example of like just how much the diagnostic criteria is not designed, Like it's like you could sit there as a fully like one autistic person and still get a really like low score on these tests that they're doing, just because the questions don't explain your experience. And there's other ones where it's like would you prefer
to go to a museum or to a party? And obviously, well, I guess the correct answer is like they think that you'd rather go to a museum as an autistic person, And it's like, well, it kind of depends on on the museum, Like am I going to Yeah, Like it's like am I going? Like what sort of party is it? Am I going with friends? Am I going with strangers? Like it's like that question does not in any way
kind of explain whether I'm autistic or not. And I think it's the same like with ADHD as well that like I think it's like this like ditsy blonde stereotype is one that I speak about in the book quite a lot, which I think is the reason why a lot of girls go undiagnosed, because I mean, previously it was kind of said that a lot more girls would have like the inattentive type of ADHD, which is the more like forgetfulness and struggling to concentrate and doodling and
rather than the hyperactive type, which is more like outwardly visible. I guess so that was kind of an idea of like, well, they're presenting a different type of ADHD which isn't as outwardly visible. But I think we've kind of moved on from that as well, to be like, maybe they're not presenting any differently, like the experiences that they have on
any differently, they're just socialized in a different way. Like I'm hyperve I have combined ADHD, which means I'm both hyperactive and inattentive, but my hyperactivity is very much internal, like my brain is like a million miles an hour
all of the time. So it wasn't ever at school that I was like rocking backwards and forwards on my chair, like causing chaos, Like the teachers were like finding me annoying all of this stuff because girls are told to behave to be quiet, whereas boys it's like, oh, boys will be boys, like they're allowed to be a bit more chaotic, and girls are very much socialized to fit in to be well behaved, to be polite, to be sensible, to be like so much more mature, I guess, like typically,
So I think it's like a combination of the fact that, like one, we're not getting diagnosed at a young age because the diagnostic criteria aren't accounting for how we show up. And then secondly, because we're not like learning that we're different at a young age, we're then being socialized in the way that kind of this patriarchal system socializes all
of like women and people marginalize for their gender. So by the time, like by the time we get any older, we're not showing any differences because we've learned how to
mask them and cover them up, Like my mum. We have like a lot of conversations where it is obviously that thing of like the grief I guess of getting diagnosed later in life, where it's like what could have been, Like I had to drop out of school, I had to decline my offers, like I've had to quit jobs, all of this stuff, and I'm like, that wouldn't have
happened if I'd have been diagnosed early. And like we've had the conversation with my mum where my mum has been like, but when I was fifteen was when I first got referred to the mental health services in the UK, And at that point they wouldn't have been able to Like, I'm like, how could they not have seen like I was seeing a psychiatrist every week? Like how like how could they have not noticed that that was what was
going on for me? And it's like, well, by that point, they wouldn't have been able to see it in you because you were doing such a good job of covering it up. Like by that time, you'd have like you were in high school, you'd learned that you had to fit in, you had to make friends, you had to survive, so you weren't showing any differences for them to pick up on.
All that they were being able to visibly.
See was the fact that you were having these like meltdowns and shut downs and becoming overwhelmed because it was almost like you were keeping it all in for such a long time that then it had all just like burst out in these like intense things that would look a lot like pan attacks, because it was just that I like would become so overwhelmed, I won't be able to speak, I would be crying I'd be overwhelmed, and it's like, well, that's all that they had to work
with because they couldn't see all of that that you were holding it in, like containing it.
Most of the time.
They just saw these kind of like volcano eruptions of when it came out. So yeah, I think it's a really it all like ties into it as well, and it's like equally as well.
The more that.
The diagnostic criteria only account for the experiences of these like young white CIS boys, the more that they're the only people that do get diagnosed. So it's like they're the only people that are going about life with a diagnosis. Yeah, So then it's like that kind of reinforces it of like they're the only people, like the only people that you would meet I guess that would know that they
were autistic, and ADHD is those people. So then in your head you're like, oh, well, everyone that I've met that's autistic is a young white boy, so maybe it's just young white boys. And it kind of goes like it goes on for such a long time, Like now I think we're seeing a wave of like, yeah, people in their twenties, thirties, forties getting a diagnosis and realizing for themselves and you know, whether that's medical diagnosis or self diagnosing or all of these things, like, but they're
realizing later in life. And I think that's amazing that we're like catching all of these people that were missed. But I still don't know if we're getting any better at picking up the girls like the Elliot three in the Like, I don't. Yeah, I still it's almost like it's like, yeah, it's amazing that we're finding out now, but we we need to fix it so we don't have to find out, like the next group of people don't have to find out in their twenties they find out at the same time.
Yeah, it's a really like tricky one.
I think to fix without they basically just need to like redo the whole research and the whole diagnostic criteria.
I guess it honestly sounds like that and also like to avoid that grief that you spoke about. But from what you've said, it's like, yeah, it doesn't account for differences and gender, in sex, in ethnicity, in really anything. And then it also sounds like they kind of haven't adapted it for like a new generation that has a new and vironment like social media, like technology, and something you said really stood out for me there. It was, you know, going online and following a certain influencer or
following a certain fashion company. That is a whole new way of kind of processing our environment and how symptoms might show up. And I think that that profile that we spoke about is only going to be exacerbated if you don't have those nuances, not just for different groups, but for different generations that are also growing up more
aware of it. The final thing that I that I think is actually really interesting if you've ever spent much time looking into neurodivergence ADHD, autism, but autism in particular, the idea of masking is really fascinating. And your book is Unmasked, fabulous title, big shout out to that, But
can you explain what that means? Because I think that a lot of the time, and this is one of my biggest pet peeves with discussions in the mental health CAMUT is that terms that actually have a real clinical and personal meaning for people get adapted to mean something a lot more colloquial and a lot more every day. So for people who've maybe heard that term don't know what it means, what does it mean to mask? What does it mean to unmask? I guess as well.
Yeah, so masking put very kind of simply is covering up your neurodivergent traits to appear more neurotypical.
So it was typically and like.
First used by the autistic community, so basically covering up your artistic traits to appear realistic or non autistic. But I guess it's kind of yeah, spread out to be used more widely by the neurodivergent community. But I guess the important thing is to say, like, it's not a choice a lot of the time, like it's a safety thing of like I have grown up learning that I have to behave a certain way to be accepted, to avoid being ostracized, like to get through situations like And
I think, yeah, it's both. It's both conscious behavior and like subconscious or unconscious behaviors. So it can be things that are super simple, like for example, as an artistic person, I struggle with eye contact. Like eye contact to me just it feels like I'm literally you're starring into my soul.
Like it feels so uncomfortable.
But when I was growing up, I was told you have to look at people in the eye when you're speaking to them, like, that's a polite thing to do, Like look at me when I'm talking to you, show me that you're listening to me. All of these things. So I just learned, Okay, that's the right thing to do talking to people.
So I would just.
Force myself to do that, and that's just the way that I learned to behave even though that's not a natural thing for me at all. But I almost didn't know at that point that it wasn't a natural thing for me because I didn't know that I was autistic. So it was like, oh, everyone must find it. There's uncomfortable, and everyone must just force themselves to do it because it's polite.
So I've got to do that as well.
So it can be like things as simple as that all the way through to things like the things that
you're talking about. So we kind of touched on, like before, the special interest autistic people have where you'd have like one topic that you like a ride and die for, basically like you're obsessed with this topic, you love it, you are so interested in it, but you might have learned that if you talk about it all the time, then people are like God, can we talk about something else, please, like or not this again, Like so you've learned to do the small talk that other people do, or you've
learned that I don't know at high school, like when you're a teenager, like oh, it's it was supposed to talk about the boys that we fancy, and we're supposed to talk about the clothes that we wear. So I'll talk about those things instead because that people like me if I talk about those things and like yeah, it's like a whole range of experiences and it's something that
is so I guess ingrained as well. Like for me, I guess I thought when I got my diagnosis that I was like woho, Like I'm on mask now, like I can be myself, Like I've learned that I'm adehg. I've learned that I'm autistic, Like here we go, Like I can be myself, but still like to this day, I'm masks so so heavily, like now I'm I'm masking. Probably I'm like speaking in a way like my natural tone of voice is quite like blunt and quite monotonous.
Whereas I've learned that that's not well received by It's not easy for people to listen to it's not easy to get my point across. So I've kind of learned to speak in a more up and down way, in a more bubbly way. But it's not meming. I've not go on this call and been like I need to you know, come on, Ellie, let's like, let's put our best accent on and talk in this certain way. It's just a natural thing that when I talk to people it comes out like this now because it's so ingrained
in the way that I am. And I think, yeah, that's something that I underestimated so much of like how difficult it would be to unmask? Like I think I was like, you know, I've got the answers now, like
here we go, like let's be ourselves. And it's like, actually, no, Like it's it's so I don't even know who's under there, really, because I've spent my whole life being ye some like being someone else and copying the people around me and doing what I've been told to do, and it's like I don't even know how to be.
Like it's so it's so much easier to slip into this car that has.
Been so defined and you've had twenty four years of practicing this character to then actually being yourself, which is like your real self, is so much more like I don't know how to explain this, Like there's no black and white, really, it's very much more gray areas. It's very nuanced, it's very flowing, like we're all kind of fluid, Whereas that character was clearly defined, like this is what Ellie likes, this is what Elle doesn't like, this is
how Ellie behaves, this is how Ellie doesn't behave. So it's so much easier to fall into that, like you've got the rules of how to behave, whereas if you're trying to actually I guess it's the same for everybody.
When you're trying to be yourself, it's you don't know exactly what that looks like, but I think it's the same thought unmasking of like I know that I naturally speak in a certain way when I'm around other people, but how do I like, I don't know how I speak naturally because I don't speak to myself when I'm
at home on my own, do I Like? That's when I'm the most unnasty is when I'm at home on my own, not being perceived by other people not interacting with other people, but then I'm not having conversations then because I'm on my own. So it's like, how do I even get to know that kind of thing? But yeah,
it's I guess it's it. That's the kind of a very long explanation, but basically covering up your your neurodivergent traits to appear neurotypical, and a lot of the time it's like done without realizing or done for safety or And I think it's like important to point out as well that like I'm quite lucky that I'm able to unmask in certain ways because I'm very like non threatening. I guess, like I'm a small white woman. I you know,
I have got pretty privilege. I'm like quite slim, I'm quite small, Whereas like a six foot five black man can't do that in the same way that I can, because where I'm stood outside rocking backwards and forwards, feeling stressed out, and that's like, oh, look at this poor young lady who's having a difficult time, Whereas if a black man does the same thing, it's like he's getting aggressive, he's been dangerous, like that could be like, you know, that could be a I risk for his safety.
It could it could end up.
In him being in prison, it could end up it getting really like dangerous situations. So unmasking is like a necessary thing for us to do to be able to be healthy because it is so draining, like do it like covering yourself up all of the time without realizing. But it's also a huge privilege to be able to do that as well, because it can be like perceived in different ways for different people depending on what you
look like. It can you know, be yeah, like even even me sometimes, like I've had times where I've been super tired and I've had loads going on, so I've been more in mass and I've kind of spoken more bluntly to people without realizing just that I'm kind of my tank is so empty that i don't have it in me to like cover it up anymore. And people have been like, you know, you're being rude, like why are you being off with me? And I'm like, I'm
not being off with you. I'm just like all I've got in me to do right now is communicate in the most concise and like natural way, Whereas that can like be end up in people thinking you're behaving a certain way, And yeah, I think it's a it's like a it's both like the thing that I guess a lot of people are aiming for being able to unmask, but it's also comes with like dangers for certain people, and it comes with being misunderstood and like maybe being kind of yeah, yeah, misunderstood.
A discriminated against. Yeah, I think that's the thing. Like, that's so interesting. When you said that, I was like, I actually had never thought about that before. I've never thought about that, And I think it's such an interesting thing, once again, an argument to retire the profile of like we it's it's so linked to not just misogyny, like we've spoken about like racism, like prejudice in so many
in so many like intricate ways. And I think also because we as a society have really been taught from a young age how you are supposed to act, which has contributed to the masking. Right, there is a I think, very defined formula of like correctness and politeness that people
are taught from a very young age. That also means that not only have you kind of forced yourself to take upon what sounds like a character, what sounds like a persona no wonder you don't know who's underneath that you've been method acting for twenty four years, like method acting to like an A plus standard, like to the point where doctors couldn't even see through it. Like that's kind of like insane, that that's just that's it, like so hard for me to even comprehend how exhausting that must be.
But I think it.
Also from what I'm hearing from you, comes from this idea that we actually don't know a lot as a general population about what this looks like because of how
we've been taught to say it. So that kind of leads to my next question, which is, like, what are some of the elements of neurodivergence that you think there needs to be more conversations around that is excluded from the narrative that is maybe less comfortable to speak about or people are less informed about, not because it's rare, just because we aren't having conversations about it.
Yeah, I think think so.
In the book, I have like chapter the first couple of chapters are where I go through like the kind of scientific basics of like what actually is ADHD, what actually is autism? And what is the diagnostic criteria that a doctor will go through to decide if you have
it or not. But then the next chapter after that is like translating those traits to how they show up in real life, because I think that's where the education is missing in society of like we understand to a certain level the traits like on paper, but we don't understand how that translates to real life experience, especially in
people that aren't the young white boys. So, like, one example is literal thinking is I think one that we all know that autistic people are literal thinkers, but the way that we've been told of that is like that they don't understand jokes or we don't understand sarcasm, or we don't understand like sayings you know where it's like I don't know break a leg and stuff like that, And they're the examples that are given on like the
medical website and stuff like that. But actually, literal thinking and literal processing for me means that I take words as gospel. Like if someone tells me something, I will believe it because they've told me it, so I take
it very literally that it must be true. So even if you know someone when I was younger, my parents couldn't say McDonald's out loud because if they said, like, oh, maybe, well, you know, if you're good, maybe we'll get a McDonald's on the way home, I'd be like, but you said if I was good, we could have McDonald's, and I've been good, so we need to go and get McDonald's, you know, Like I would take it very like literally what they said, but also like it goes the other
way of like if you haven't told me something, I won't know it to be true because I'm a very literal person. So whereas other people might assume that something's like going on in the background, or like that someone else has got something going on, for example, or that things are happening. If you don't tell me something, then
I don't know it. So like for example, like recently, my dad's had quite a lot going on at work, and like the rest, like my mum will be like, you know, if he's stressed at home, it's because he's got a lot going on at work.
But I'm like, but.
If he doesn't tell me, you know, other people might be able to think, oh, he's acting different, maybe something's causing him to act different, whereas I'm like, but if you don't tell me that you've got a lot going on at work, I don't know that you've got a lot going on at work. So I'm thinking, why is my dad not talking to me? Or why is my
dad seeming stress? Like what's going on? Like I'm trying to solve that problem, but I don't have the information because no one has said, your dad's got a lot
on his plate at the moment. So it's that like, you know, people think, oh, yeah, I understand the autistic people literal thinkers, but it's like, okay, no, but you think that I can't understand sarcasm, But actually it's that I can only process the world with the information that I am like physically given, like in black and white basically. So I think that's like, yeah, people don't understand how
the traits actually show up in real life. So I think that's like a big one that I have tried to kind of go through each trait and that way of being like, Okay, this is what you know, what we think it is, and this is how it actually shows up for people. And then I think another really big one, especially with ADHD, is RSD, which is rejection sensitive dysphoria, and it's basically like real bad emotional dysregulation, and it's like this basically very extreme response in response
to kind of perceived or real rejection. So if you think that someone's upset with you, or you think that you're being rejected, or you think that you haven't done a good job or anything is like pointing you in the direction of some sort of perceived rejection, then it's like a full body like it feels like the world is closing in on you because you've just been rejected
in that way. And I think that's I think that's a big one as to why so many women don't get diagnosed or they do throw the young sciety card or the depression card, because all they're seeing again is these like extreme emotional reactions and they're like hormones, anxiety or like all of these things.
Or BPD as well, Like, yeah, that would be another one where I'm like, so that sluts in.
Yeah, So I actually yeah, when I so, before I got to my actual diagnosis, when I kind of got to the point where I was like, anxiety is not quite right, but I didn't have the answers yet. I actually went through there was like a couple of months
where I was convinced that I had BPD. I was like, I started researching online and that was the first thing that came up, like you know, mood swings going from being really high to being really low, like kind of irrational behavior and like when someone's leaving, like you know, having abandonment issues. And I was like, that's me. I was like, all of these things are me. I've found the answer, like I've got BPD. And I was like
literally going to my doctors. I was like, I need to be referred for a BPD assessment, like I've got BPD, Like I found the answer, this is it. And they're like, no, Elliott, it's not, like that's not you. And I was I was like, no, but it is. It is, and like, I mean, I guess it isn't, but yeah, the experiences, Like I read those traits and I was like, that's me.
That's me, that's me, that's me. But yeah, yeah exactly.
And I think what makes it even more I was actually having this conversation with a friend yesterday. What makes it even more difficult is that things like BPD and CPTSD are caused by trauma and growing up as an undiagnosed autistic person or undiagnosed person with ADHD that is trauma in itself. You're you're masking all the time, You're living in a world that's not designed for you. You're constantly misunderstood, You're constantly told that what you're like, if you're yourself,
it's wrong. You're constantly told that you're lazy, or that you're sensitive or all of these things. Like growing up as an undiagnosed you're ad divergent person is trauma. And these other conditions that are so similar in their experiences are caused by trauma. So it's like, how the heck are you supposed to disentangle? Like it's so common for people to have a combination of all of these things.
Like I am almost certain that I've got CPTSD because just the things that happened in my teenage years and the way that I respond now to things that happen versus like it's I'm not just dealing with the thing that's happening, I'm dealing with all of the stuff that happened when I was undiagnosed, but that the actual experience it like it'd be really difficult for me to get diagnosed with CPTSD because they could probably explain away all
of the experiences that I was having through ADHD emotional dysregulation,
protecting sensitive dysphoria, through autism, like being hypervigilant. That's again like I'm autistic, so I have Yeah, I'm autistic, so i pick up on things really easily, and I'm really sensitive to sound, and I'm really sensitive to change, and I like to have a routine and all of those things also our behaviors that people with CPTSD would show because it's hypervigilance, it's protecting yourself, it's all of those Like it is just a minefield of like over laugh
and complication, and I think, yeah, that's a really kind of big, big thing that a lot of people face of like what is going on here? And a lot of the time it's probably a bit of a combination of everything.
So interesting as well, because it's only been recently that people can actually get more than one diagnosis, like it used to be like here, you have bipologus order, you have borderline personality disorder, you have autism. There's your box, sit in it now, And I think you point to a really interesting point that a lot of people don't understand, which is that your experience with mental illness can actually create further mental illness and actually can be a trigger
for things like complex post traumatic stress disorder. I think we often think about that in particular. It's really a really like that you brought that in. We think about trauma in the sense of something really really terrible, external, violent happening to you. But trauma is just like the disruption of security and peace and you know, safety that is as simple as it is, and that can come from so many different things, including like an experience of growing up in as you said, a world that is
not designed for you. That is so traumatic, and it's not just one of it. It's a continuous cumulation of stress, of anxiety, of as you said, masking. So I'm glad that you brought that up, and I think it literally leads into this next thing, which is if I'm sure, I'm so sure that there is probably someone listening to this right now who is like, holy shit, why is this describing me? I thought I had VPD. Everyone told
me I had anxiety. I was said rude things when I was a teenager without realizing it, without even consciously knowing. So what would your advice be to someone who thinks that they have ADHD they have autism in the same position you now that they're an adult in their twenties. Like you said, there's going to be so many more people who are coming through in the next few decades who could have received a diagnosis at three, nine, ten,
but aren't going to do so until they're twenty. What's your advice as someone who kind of lived that.
Yeah, I think it's a really really tricky one now because because of the fact that so many more people are realizing, it means that services and support just aren't there. Like the waiting lists to get an actual diagnosis are so long, it's so tricky to get diagnosed. And also the medical professionals are kind of a lot of the
time behind us in our understanding. Like they were trained, however, many years ago, when they were at university or whatever it might be, they were taught the stereotypical diagnostic criteria. They were taught that it was more common in CIS
boys than it was in anybody else. You know, they maybe don't have the understanding to be able to see your experiences and see them for what they are even if that's if you're even kind of lucky enough to get in the room with somebody, Like now, waiting lists are really long, like private assessments are really expensive. Like it's a really tricky time at the moment because it's like so many people are having these realizations and then they can't really go away and do anything with that.
So I would say, like my first point is like that self diagnosis is completely valid and is kind of necessary in the current world that.
We live in.
I think with ADHD it's slightly different because medication can be helpful, and obviously you would need to see and have a medical diagnosis and see a professional for that. But other than that, like you are the expert of
your own experiences. If you're going through all of this information, if you're doing all of these online tests and you're seeing that, yeah, this is right for me, this is who I am, then you can tell you can give yourself that ance that you don't need to have like a green tick of approval from a medical professional, because it's just.
You know, in an ideal world, yes.
We would all be able to go and see a psychiatrist and get those answers, but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where it's impossible to do that for a lot of people at the moment, and it's a privilege to be able to do that. So like, firstly, yeah, that's completely a valid thing to do, and also like remembering that it's not a piece of paper from a doctor that changes your life.
It's changing your life that changes your life. So it's like, I, you know, anyone can change the way that they're working. They can work more flexibly, they can give themselves more rest, they can honor their sensory needs more, they can wear ear defenders when they're in noisy venues, they can buy planners that will help them manage their time better. They can you know, all of these things that are the reason that my life is so much better now. Anyone can do it.
Does need a.
Doctor to go, Yes you are autistic. Yes you have ADHD for you to be able to do those things. So I think it's really you know, the narrative at the moment that like, oh, everyone's self diagnosing and you have to you know, you don't know, but you do know, like you can do that for yourself. And I would
say the main thing as well. That helped me in terms of like validation and actually understanding and feeling comfortable in knowing that that was what was going on for me was looking like searching out the experiences of other people that had similar lived experience to mine. So, like we were saying, when I was reading through the diagnostic criteria, there were some things where I was like, hmm, you know, maybe that's me, but it doesn't one hundred percent sound
like me. But then I would go onto social media and I would find another twenty twenty something year old woman talking about her experience of that thing, and I'd be like, oh, yeah, that's just like me.
I do that, I'm exactly the.
Same as that because obviously if we're both the same age, the same gender, and we have similar interests, then the way that our traits show up are going to be more similar as well. So I think that's a really helpful thing to do. You know, if you're a woman, look for the experiences of women. If you're a person of color, look for the experiences of people of color.
If you're a mother, looks for the experiences of other mothers, Like look for people who have similar like a wider range of similar experience to yours than the way that their trade show up is probably more likely to going
to be more similar to yours as well. So I think that's a really helpful that for me, that was like what kind of tipped me over the edge from hmm, maybe maybe I should look into these things to Yeah, I'm confident that this is what's going on for me was seeing other people who were similar to me talking about their experiences because they were obviously a lot more similar to mine.
So I would say.
That that is like the best, the best thing that I could recommend. It's like a far from ideal situation because it's like I obviously would love for everybody to be able to get the actual answers and the support that they need and the medication that they need for ADHD if they choose to do that, but it's a tricky time at the moment where these services are just overloaded.
So I think just like knowing like that it's okay to self diagnose that it's okay to put these things in place for yourself without someone telling you that you're allowed to do that, and then also seeking out the experience and even like connecting with other neurodivergent people where you can like for me, obviously, I'm kind of very public about it. It's my job to talk about it online.
But the friends I have made through doing that and having autistic friends ADHD friends has literally been the best thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life. Like I've always had such a hard I've had such a hard time with friendships, Like school was awful for me, Like I think I massively underestimate it actually, where it's been one of those things where I've just had to survive it. So I just I'm like, we don't talk about school, we don't think about it, like I dropped
out of school. I had I was bullied awfully, Like I just had an awful time, And I guess I just kind of got used to the fact that, Okay, maybe I'm never gonna find their friendship group, maybe I'm never gonna fit in anywhere, because it just doesn't seem to have happened up to now, Whereas now I'm like, oh no, I actually can find people that I relate to,
where I was just not finding the right people. So I think if you can join communities, I have another Instagram account called We Are Unmasked, which is a community for your divergent people, and we try and set up event. It's kind of on the back burner at the moment because I've been writing a book and stuff, but yeah, hopefully we'll be doing more like online events and things like that, and even just looking through the comments, you'll be able to find people who are in a similar
position to you. And I think finding those friendships is like a huge thing that you can do for validation as well.
One hundred percent. I honestly love that, not just I obviously don't have ADHD or autism, but like even from my perspective, if you can relate to that, like the best is yet to come, Like you're not going to find your people in a high school of six hundred people, Like maybe you will, but the world is so much bigger and broader and wider than that you have no idea what's coming, and not in an anxious sense, in
like the most beautiful sense. And also I really like that point because I think in the cycle the point you made earlier, like the psychology community, there is a big fuss around like ADHD is so overdiagnosed. Everyone's on you know, Riddlin or adderall whatever. And I'm like, okay, great, are you their doctor? No, So you have no opinion on this. Literally, you're someone on the internet who has made their mind up around what this does and doesn't
look look like. And I think that is so insulting. And it's additionally the thing of like I always think about the comparison to depression. You can know you're depressed without a doctor telling you, and you can do things in your life to mitigate that. What is to say that you can't do that for other things as well?
And obviously medication comes into it. You might need a helping hand in that sense, but it doesn't mean that you have to wait until someone goes Yeah, you're like approved for a diagnosis to be making the changes that you think are going to benefit your life. So I think that's such a beautiful message. One final question but I would love for you to answer, is you've just released a book. I know we've talked about it so much, and I honestly hearing your story of being like I
had to drop out of high school. I was bullied. I never for what I was going to get that far. That's and here you are now is like honestly quite emotional. So what would you tell that person, that kind of younger version of you who was really struggling for answers?
Yeah, I think a big one is like focus on the people that love you rather.
Than the ones that don't.
So I think, like, especially through high school, I think like, obviously I didn't know that I was asking. I didn't know that was autistic. Was that I had ADHD, but I always had it was almost like an internal thing where I always tried to become friends with the popular people.
I think it was like this innate need to fit in, this innate need to be liked, to be approved of, like to be validated, that I would always like try and be friends with the popular group and it would always end badly for me, like I had so many time.
I can literally could probably point to like ten different times in my life where I've sat down with my mum and she's been like, Ellie, why do you always try to be friends with like the loud girls, the popular girls, Like they're not like you, like you're you're soft, you're gentle, Like it's it doesn't end well for you,
like why? And it was almost like I think like all kind of women and people marginalized for the gender that have gone through high school know that feeling of like it's a rock and a hard place, Like it's like the plastics Inminger, Like if you're friends with them, then it's life as hell, but if you're not friends
with them, then it's even worse. So I think it was that thing of like I would always try to be liked by everybody and by the popular people, whereas actually, if I'd have got there on my first day in year seven and gone, I actually really like maths, I actually really like puzzles. I you know, maybe I should make some friends that maybe other people are gonna call
us weird. Maybe we're not gonna have the nicest time either, but I'm at least gonna have these three solid friends that we all love each other for our weirdness and our geekiness and our strangeness and all of whatever it might be like that would have been. It still wouldn't have been easy, right, because no one has a nice time at high school, especially if you're like different in
any way. But at least I would have had like the like that solid group of friends that would have loved me for me whereas I was still like focused on making everybody like me or trying to fit in with the popular people that I kind of denied myself the opportunity to make friends that might not have been
as popular, but they would have been friends. So I think that would be my thing of like focus on finding people that love you for you rather than being like it's that thing of like, don't be everyone's cup of tea, be like someone's shot of whiskey, or I don't know whatever the saying is of like basically.
I never heard that, but I love that. I'm gonna slide.
I don't even know if that's right. We've made it up now it's we'll go with it.
But yeah, kind of that thing of like trying to focus on finding a place rather than being like mass liked, I think would have been a good one for me to know. And I think almost like I think it's one of those things where it's like it's a worse thing that someone can say to you at the time, but over time you realize that it's so true of just like trusting the process, Like I genuinely thought that because I didn't go to union, because I dropped out
of school, like that was it. I was never going to get anywhere in life, Like I was going to be miserable. I was going to do low paid jobs. I was never going to be successful. I was going to be overworked. Like when actually, you know, I've been really lucky. I'm really grateful for what's happened. But I've not needed a degree for any of this, Like I've not needed high school.
Qualifications for any of this.
It has all worked out in the end, and like maybe it could have worked out a lot sooner. But I think just like trusting that you don't have to do things the way that everyone else is doing them, Like you can do what it's better that you drop out and you're still healthy and you're well, you're working on becoming healthy again, and you're looking after yourself and
you're being gentle with yourself. Then forcing yourself to do things because you think that you should do them and you think that's the only way that you're going to achieve anything, and all of that stuff, and I guess, yeah, reading like the Path and redefining what success is I think was because I think, yeah, at school, there's so much pressure of like you have to be the top grade student, you have to go to UNI, you have to get a good job you have, and that doesn't
work for everybody, Like life happens, and also that life is not the life that everyone wants. So I think if someone would have been like, it's okay if you're not top of the class, it's okay if you don't go to UNI, that would have been a really helpful thing for me to know as well.
Hmmm, I'll trust the process. I love that also totally true, Like it's there is such a different path than the jobs that we might be working in like twenty years probably don't exist. Yet what you and I are doing did not exist twenty years ago. Like maybe what I'm doing, like technically podcast did exist, but not to this level. Like the world is evolving, and I think that's so important.
Something I always think is like I'm most grateful for the things that I wanted and didn't get, Like I'm so grateful for the things that I like begged for that I thought were going to make me happy, like that internship that like, you know, university entry that boyfriend and I didn't get them, And at the time, I was like, I'm so miserable that this is the end of my life and everything I know. I hate saying everything happens for a reason, because I don't think it does.
But there are some things that happen for you, not to you. I think that's like, yeah, a beautiful way to end things. So I want to say thank you so much for coming on, thank you for being one of our guests for this like wonderful December holiday series. It's just like such a beautiful perspective, one that I think more people need to hear. And I'm so so thankful that you were able to make time to talk to us.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been so nice to have a very nice, wholesome chat to start the day for me.
Yeah, and to end the day for me. Look at that. It's like a beautiful bookmark for our days. I'm gonna put all of Ellie's links in the description here. Please go and buy her book if you if you resonated with any of this, if you have a friend, a family member who this sounds like them, buy it for them.
It's Christmas time, why the fuck not? You know, Share the joy around, share the information around, and as always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you're listening right now, Share it with a friend if you think they'd like it, and if you have any further
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