Alright , folks , welcome back to the Property Couch Podcast as we get to our second episode in this season's summer series . Ben and today is a ripper . We are talking to a property investor that has a multi property portfolio and we also talk about how a move to a gold mining town changed everything for this couple .
But what else do we cover , ben ? Well , that's right , bryce , we're talking . This story has themes around sacrifice , delay , gratification and , to your point , basically moving and getting out of your comfort zone in terms of what you're trying to achieve . It is a ripper tail and I can't wait to unpack it .
It is a ripper tail , Ben , so let's rip into the show .
Welcome to the Property Couch where , each week , you get to listen to two of Australia's leading property and money experts Bryce Holdaway , co-host of Location Location , location Australia on Foxtel's Lifestyle Channel and co-host of Escape from the City on the ABC .
And Ben Kingsley , chair of Property Investors Council of Australia and a back-to-back winner of the Property Investment Advisor of the Year Award , and both are partners of the multi award-winning Empower Wealth , co-creators of more , the free lifestyle design app , as well as bestselling authors of the Armche Guide to Property Investing and Make Money Simple Again .
Stay tuned as they bring you the Insiders Guide to Property Finance and Money Management .
Alright , folks , we've got another very special guest today on this edition of the Summer Series podcast . Ben , we are talking to a podcast listener . Her name is Amy Hembaland . Welcome to the Property Couch , amy .
Thanks , boys , lovely to be here .
Thanks for joining us . Yes , thanks very much . Long time listener , we understand .
Yes , since the beginning you guys have been in my ears .
So yeah , almost nine years so yeah , a lot of education , a lot of knowledge . You'll find in life .
So thank you . Thank you for all the value you've added in my life .
Oh , thank you for coming on today and sharing your story . Now . Me and Stiggy have been conspiring in the background . We said we wanted more ladies to put their hands up , so I just want to be a shout out and say thank you for coming First of all , listening for that long .
Yeah .
So thank you for coming and sharing your story , but there's a whole bunch of stuff we want to learn about you .
But if you've been listening for nine years , you know what the next question is that is about to come out of my mouth , and it's along the lines of tell us a bit about growing up , money conversations Were there any conversations over the dinner table with you ?
Look , they were in our house actually it was pretty freely spoken about . My parents have always been small business owners , mostly cafes and restaurants , over the years Up in northern New South Wales here a little town called Lenox Head I grew up in on the coast and yeah , we chatted a lot about money .
I think when your parents own small businesses you sort of live and breathe that lifestyle with them . So a lot of time in the restaurants I remember from the earliest ages Dad would used to let me count the takings as well . So you know , at the end of the day I was a kid that loved maths .
At the end of the day , you know I can sit there and count the takings and balance the tills and sit there with all the money . And you know this is mid nineties when you know there was cash , a lot of cash around . So I got to see it , you know .
What impact did you think that had on you then , having those conversations and your understanding of money at that early age ?
Well , I think at the time I didn't think anything of it because that was my normal , you know , like sitting there with all this money . That was my normal , you know . But I guess , looking back now as an adult , it probably had a lot of influence on me .
You know , seeing it , believing it and knowing that you put your head down , you work hard enough , it's there if you want it .
That's a powerful , you know , sort of tangible way in which you've been able to develop out , you know , good money habits , and so obviously , the next logical question for me is how did that mature , as you were sort of getting more and more exposure to , you know , to the opportunity to make money for yourself ?
Yeah , well , I guess it could . It's just myself and my sister and I guess , yeah , it could have gone either way , seeing that money , there could have been sort of an entitlement to money . But I think my sister and I , you know , have always been good with money and made good money decisions .
And I think , you know , my parents taught us how to fish and it wasn't like money was growing on trees , but we were in the business , businesses with them . We saw how hard they were . So , you know , we knew that . You know it wasn't growing on trees , it was actually coming from hard work .
So we just knew that if we had , you know , a good work ethic and make good decisions in our life , that we could have the same things .
What about investing then ? If your parents were small business owners I think you said restaurants there and you're getting exposed to this Were they was there other investments outside of their businesses that they were involved in , and if so , did they talk to you about those ?
Look , not really . I think mum and dad both came from very humble beginnings . You know they both didn't finish high school . They started their businesses quite young , had us quite young and was just like hard work , you know , and they didn't really .
I think there were opportunities along the way , you know , to get like a commercial freehold of the business they were in , and it was always just maybe a little bit out of reach or you know it was talked about .
It was sort of more about that family home we grew up in , like a little two bedroom beach shack at the beginning , and then there was like an extensive renovation that they sort of went through .
I remember in primary school and we had this like quite big house after that and but yeah , the investing journey a little bit more later in life now but not so much back then . I think it was more just about paying the home off and working hard but also having like a lot of experiences as well .
We had a lot of holidays growing up and a lot of , yeah , hard work , but then fun as well .
So , amy , you've been listening for a long time , but you know being pretty much with us for the nine years or so that we've been going on . You know I asked this question in a lot of the summer series You're exposed to the same thing your sister was exposed to .
Did you both go on a similar course in terms of understanding the value of money and that money could work for you if you worked for it ?
Yeah , I think so I think we've been on a bit of a similar path . Both , you know , saw how hard our parents worked in business , so both , when it got a tertiary education sort of went down a different path . But yeah , definitely , I think she and I sort of the same different type of investing roots They've .
Her and her husband have sort of more gone down the shares path and myself and my wife more property . But yeah , I think we're all heading in the same direction .
And with Samantha in terms of her situation , was it similar for her ? I mean , have you guys had that conversation about what money was growing up like for your wife ?
Yeah , sure yeah her family's from England , so they came here in the early 80s and , yeah , same sort of thing hard work is , you know , more of a scarcity mindset , probably in the background from her parents , from where they've come from . But yeah , definitely same sort of path there , same values , you know .
Yeah , great .
Well , you and your wife have three kids and they're sort of early age toddlers . So are there any conversations around money for , say , your five year old , or is it still a little early for you ?
Yeah , we're starting to . I mean , we tell them how we have these houses and , like , people give us money or we say dollar bucks because they're bluey fans . But you know people give us the dollar bucks . We give it back to the bank right now but in the future you know we'll be getting that money .
But you know we go down to the local farmers markets on a Sunday and they take their little cash down because they're a little banana man's cash only and trying to get that sort of given cash and counting change going on with the five year old .
But there's not many opportunities to sort of get cash out and cash these days Like , yeah , I learned a lot just by counting change and , you know , seeing real money . So I think you're still trying to establish that in kids , even though it's not a lot of it around anymore .
Yeah Well , you would have seen a few months ago or last month there's a lot of Voptis . People would have worked out small business owners how to get cash into their little cafes at that time as well .
Cash is king .
Yeah , yeah , can be , can be king or hot . Hey , I want to then sort of understand from from that really , I mean , that's good foundations , right . So we're building on good foundations . I've got notes here hard work , effort . You know those small business operators .
They do it tough in this country but you learn a lot Like you take a lot of gravity away from that sort of thing . So how did that sort of then manifest into your young adulthood and then how you were sort of looking after your money ?
Yeah , I think when I left high school I didn't know what I wanted to do , so I sort of spent a few years , kind of . I really wanted to travel . My parents , you know they exposed us to lots of holidays and travels .
So I really wanted to travel and I and I left and I went overseas , to America , and worked at a summer camp over there and lived in a few different places , you know , traveled around . I wanted to get out there and see the world .
So I think in my head it was kind of like yeah , I'll save money when I find out what I want to do , finish my qualifications , start working full time in a real job . That's when I'll start saving and investing . So I , you know , we didn't buy our first property until I was 27 . So it's not like we started super early .
It's just that , you know , I knew it was always going to happen at some point , but I didn't want to miss out on that that . Experiences in my twenties , you know , traveling , staying at backpackers you know the things I don't want to do now , in my late 30s , you know , with kids .
So you leaned in on those experiences . But what was money movements like as you were traveling and you're getting your first job , and sort of drawing on the experiences you had with your parents , seeing what that looked like , and every money counts . What were you ? You know , you said you didn't want to invest until or buy your first property until later .
But were you still careful or did ?
you let it all go . Yeah , still careful . It was always my sister and I both had part-time jobs from 14 and 9 months . We sort of saved our money and I would spend that on more experiences rather than things . But yeah , we'd sort of save money and then that would be for traveling or whatever . So I've always been kind of safe with money .
I guess you could say and then , in terms of looking at your current situation , do you use the sort of more platform or the MoneySmart system as part of sort of organising your money ?
Yeah , I think so . I think it's developed over time . We definitely use the more platform on the mobile , but , yeah , the MoneySmart , I think back since you know , before you guys were used to read Scott Pates books , it was the JAR systems and that MoneySmart and just getting that right .
So I think when we were sort of saving for our first deposit , it was , you know , that high interest savings account and yeah , it just sort of had it set up pretty well from the beginning , I guess an offset account when we got out first home and that's where we got paid into and tried to keep it pretty simple really there's a big story here , right ?
Because now this is the pivot for me in terms of in reading some of the brief notes that we've got on your backstory . You had to make a pretty big sacrifice to get into that sort of property space , so tell us that story .
I mean because you're someone in your 30s obviously three young kids , wife you needed to save a deposit to get onto the property ladder . So tell us the journey , because that's that is by far the hardest thing these days for those budding property people who want to acquire a property .
Tell us about the journey to saving that deposit and how you potentially fast-track that story .
Yeah . So Sam and I were living in Newcastle back when I finished uni and I was looking around at new grad positions and you know I could get a . I was in Newcastle , I could get a local job there at a private practice . They were offering a salary of you know , 45,000 . And I thought , oh yeah , I'll just have a look around .
And there was a job going with WA country health and they had multiple positions and it was a $57,000 starting salary . I thought , oh , this is better than the local place . So I thought I'll , I'll apply and see what happens .
And yeah , I got offered a job and job offer came through and it said Calgoole , goldfields and I didn't know where that was Like for someone on the East Coast WA's Broome , perth and maybe Margariva . So I had to get the , get the map out and have a look and there it was no way near the beach where I grew up . So I was like , oh no .
So I had to break the news to Sam . We were off to Calgoole in WA and , yeah , it was a fantastic year . It was character building , we saved a deposit for our house and the plane landed and I started crying and she said what are you doing , crying Like we're here for your job ?
She was hadn't started her nursing career yet , so she was sort of there sacrificing a year , like delaying the year of getting started on her career , and she said I'll go for a year and a year to the day she was leaving , with or without me , and I was , you know , wise enough to know that relationships is more important than money .
So , yeah , I was out of there after a year too , but yeah , it was a great experience .
So describe to people who have never been to Calgoole what the vast difference looks like for someone who's grown up on the coast and then you land in Calgoole .
Yeah , well , there's nothing very green over there , you know it's . We arrived in January , so that like middle of summer and it's dry and there's people walking around with all these hats on with like these fly net things over the face and what's that about .
But obviously there's so many flies and it's so dry , just keeping the flies out of your eyes , I don't know . But yeah , there wasn't any grass . You know that supermarkets didn't open on Sunday . I don't know if they do now , but was it much open ? Was it much there Like big , biggest open cut gold mine in Australia ?
Like it was pretty cool , like it was different and we just thought , you know , we've both traveled , so we were open to new experiences , so we were there for you know reasons , but it was like lots of transient people there , lots of young professionals from Perth , you know , teaching emergency services , so it was a good , good atmosphere for us .
I looked at the local hospital , which was eyeopening and yeah , Did you make the trek to Perth and the coastline at a ? Certain time so did you spend most of the year in Calgoole .
Yeah , so we spent most of the year there . We did weekends down to Esperance , so that was our closest coast . I think it was I can't remember now maybe three and a half hour drive , but beautiful coastline down south there .
We had some family in Margaret River so we did go to Margaret River for Christmas and we did do a trip to Bali in the middle of the year , because that's what you do when you're in Perth . Yes , we had a few little holidays there , but I guess that's where the real interest in property and finance and money came , because it wasn't much to do in Calgoole .
And you know , I just really read a lot of books , API magazine , like anything , no week , paul Clithero , scott Payport , just really sort of pre-podcast times back in 2010 . So I really just read a lot of books and really educated myself on you know what our next step was going to be after We'd started to save that money .
Where do you think that hunger came from , Amy ? Because you obviously seen exposed to small business with your folks . But you're a voracious reader by the sounds of that list that you just rattled off and , as you say , it was pre-podcast at those times . So what was the spark ? Was there a mentor ? Was there a spark ? What got you in that mindset ?
I'm not sure .
Yeah , no mentor .
No , no , I don't know , not really sure . I just sort of thought , right now we're really saving some money , now we're going to be , you know , saving , investing for our future , like now that I could really actually see the money in the bank account . I was like now we can sort of move forward . But yeah , I don't know where it came from .
I think , just knowing that , I think I didn't want to go down that business ownership path like my parents , because I saw how hard they worked and all the sacrifices they made for us and I thought I need to invest in a different way . And I think you know from all my reading , it was property was the answer , you know , like , not shares .
I don't want to like I follow a lot of the fire stuff . But I think with shares , you know , you've got to work a lot and save a lot to , you know , get ahead that way . So property and the leverage was what made most sense to me at the time .
Do you think that the Calgoolly posting was helpful in saving for that deposit ? Because imagine if you had had the posting in Margaret River or somewhere where spending the money was a bit easier .
Yeah , that's right , definitely Not much to spend your money on . Out there We'd have friends come visit us and like the only activity you could do would be like we'd take them to the super pit , show them the super pit or we'd go you could do tours into don't have to say this , but you could do tours of the brothels in Calgoolly in the daytime .
So when we had friends come visit , that was what we did . We went to the brothels , took them to the super pit and that was pretty much it . So not much to spend your money on . You can see how people that move there and work in the mines , you know , spend a lot of money at the pubs and things like that . But yeah , we saved .
Doesn't the National Geographic shows the gold hunters or something like that , the nugget hunters or something like that , that's filmed around that particular area . So did any of your friends come over with their gold detectors and want to go out and stake the ground and see if they could find their riches ?
Oh , I don't know , I don't think so . No , I don't . Yeah , I don't know . But completely different world Like this country is so vast , it's so cool . There's so many places to see it . I can't wait to just do more , more traveling with the kids and get out there and show them this beautiful country .
Well , I'm disappointed I didn't go . I drove from Torqueta Perth last Christmas and I was planning to go into Calgooli to check it out and see the super pit and I decided to press on and do the do the drive in three days rather than four , but I'm kind of still a bit .
The characters and the people you get to meet . Yeah , it's just that these places are magical , I mean so much care . Yeah , I completely agree . So let's move into . We walk out of there . We have a wonderful experience . We've taken a good chunk of that deposit . So what are we thinking ?
Are we thinking first owner occupied home , or do we want to start investing at first ? Or when are the children's plans coming ? Tell us a bit about the consideration you had around the sequencing and the order in which you wanted to put things in .
Sure , I think for us , like I can see now , rent besting is a strategy for some people , but I think for us we're moving back to the East Coast to kind of a small coastal town , so the rent was similar to mortgage repayment .
So for us it made sense to buy the first owner occupied , because it's not like we were renting in an expensive place in the city sort of thing . So for us it made sense to just use that . We had $50,000 saved after a year and we use that to buy our first place .
That was $381,000 here in East Ballina and we thought we were clever to negotiate $1,000 off that because the hot water system looked like it had been there since 1980 . And then when we got the power on it works and we got another seven years out of that . So that was good .
So $380 was that purchase price and I remember at the time asking to mum and dad if they wanted to guarantee our loan and they said no , and I was a bit surprised , like why wouldn't you do that ? It's not costing you anything .
And then so I remember that $4,000 of LMI going on to our mortgage actually , and I remember thinking , yeah , that's a lesson you taught me there . I just don't remember it still now .
Have you revisited that with your folks now ? How do you ? Got a portfolio and they thought maybe we should have looked after you , darling , and you knew what you were doing . Or did they just not think that you knew what you were doing ?
Dad doesn't feel sorry for us . No , we got our first land tax bill this year .
Welcome to the club .
So he definitely doesn't feel sorry for us .
Okay , so you buy that first one in East Ballinare . Tell us , did you do anything to it ? Was there any renovations ? Was it as is , what was the next step for that one ?
Yeah , look , it's a 3x2x1 brick and tile 1980 build , very basic , still basic to this day . It's got an orange laminate kitchen bench top with the chipboard falling off underneath . The kids' call at the Weepix and every one of our investment properties is nicer than our own home . But we're delaying that gratification .
It's going to be a potentially the last big rock in the jar is the knockdown rebuild of our own home . So that's in the future , but while the kids are young we've got a 5x3 or a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old . Everyone's not toilet trained . There's textures and crowns everywhere , and I think that's okay now because it's 1980 original .
Yeah , super smart . So okay , so you got that one . And then what happens next ? What was the next purchase to put ?
Yeah , so based on everything you guys say . The next one we made a lot of mistakes in the book , even though I've been reading and learning for a while . The next one we made the mistakes but I kind of justified it the whole way through .
So the next one we buy a block of land in 2015 , locally , so you know you don't invest in your own backyard and you buy established , which we didn't do . So I justified the land buying part because it was coastal infill land , not greenfield city land . So I was like tick that box .
And then the other thing we did was we invested locally and it we probably has been very kind to us , like we have been lucky . We're 15 minutes south of Byron Bay , so the biggest capital gross city town in the whole country the last 10 years . So that's just been very lucky for us . So we believe property has been very kind to us .
And the third mistake we made was we used the deposit for the land of our money in our offset account instead of releasing equity from our property . So we fixed all that up by construction stage and sort of did all that properly . But yeah , that was a lot of mistakes there , but it's turned out to be our best asset .
So we bought the land , took a while to settle . We decided to build a house with an attached granny flat because we thought let's spend an extra 100 grand to put the granny flat on to get that extra 15% rental yield . So that's been our best performing asset by far and yeah , we were so grateful that we did that .
Well , it's not a mistake , is it ? I mean , ultimately , I know that's been kind to sort of say , not what we recommend traditionally in terms of the conversations we have on the podcast , but there must have been something that you were feeling around what was going on in that area ? All was it sluggish for a while and then took off .
I mean , tell us , take us through the buying decision of buying that vacant land in that area . Were you confident that there was going to be this rush towards the coastline in the whole sort of buyer and hinterland area ?
Yeah , I mean , I grew up in the area so I think you always get biased to where you grow up .
But I traveled around the world and traveled across the other side of the country and you do see a few places and you realise it's pretty special here , Like a lot of people want to live here , a lot of people travel here and obviously it had that COVID boost of lifestyle that this was pre-COVID .
But yeah , I always thought it was a gun place to sort of be .
Well , yeah , I mean . So ultimately you've been able to do your research , predict the area , put new improvements on the land , but obviously two improvements Granny Flat as well , to give you that higher income . So , yeah , I don't think you should be calling it a mistake .
Sure , the cash out of the offset account to pay their deposit wasn't the right move , but on the whole that's a pretty good acquisition .
Yeah , like we've been . Yeah , it's funny , you read all the books and you know all the things you're supposed to do , but it's not until you do things in practice where you really get your real learnings .
I think , and like I knew , that I knew that wasn't the right thing to do , but for some reason , I don't know , we didn't have a mortgage broker at the time . We sort of got a mortgage broker after that . But it's like you read stuff and you reinforce it , you know , but in practice it's very , very different .
I mean , where did the seed get planted for the Granny Flat ? Had you seen someone else do it Was a part of your reading . Was there someone at the next door ? What was the structure ?
Yeah , I think I'm done some just from reading books and listening to other people's stories , I think , in the magazines , I think . Yeah , I think that that's where it sort of came from , and I think we weren't putting a granny flat in the backyard of an established house with sort of unknown costs of water and electricity and all that .
We were like let's do it from the setup . But we went to a few project builders and they were like no , we can't do that , the fire was too expensive or no , we can't do that , that's not one of our normal designs . So it took me a few builders like a project builder to say , yeah , we can do that for you on this block and make it work .
I knew it could work and I'd done a lot of research around . You know , if we stay within the parameters of not making the Granny Flat over 60 square metres , we can not play council contribution fees . And you know , I sort of did my research what we could rent it for and it all made sense .
I just had to sort of get it across the line with the builder that was prepared to do it .
So we've gone from Calgooli to East Ballinah . Then we buy a block of land and we add some value to it so it improves the yield . What do you do next after that ?
So as soon as it was finished we got it valued , with the land and the build all up , we were in for 580 and then we got it valued and it came back at 810 . So we were ready to go again with that equity release . We were also ready to start a family then too .
So it was like quick , let's get the next one , before anyone knows I'm pregnant and get that across the line . But I think we were very lucky . We had sort of eight years pre-kids to be that double income , no kids family where we had that earnings , where we could sort of put a few big rocks in the jar before we started having a family .
And I think , being two girls , we obviously had to pick up the phone and make a call to the Fidelity Clinic to start the process . So we knew that it was like investing . It was a conscious decision . We had to do that .
It wasn't just accidental babies getting in the way of our plans , so we sort of and it was also an unknown cost , we didn't know if that was going to cost us 10 grand or 100 grand , so we were just like we'll put that aside until we get a few big rocks of investing in the jar and then we'll be able to go down that family formation path after that .
So yeah , pretty quickly . The next step was getting another property and sort of kept reading and listening to you guys and I think the next stage we got a buyer's agent who was a member of PIPPA . So that was our next step and we went and bought a property with him up in some of called Fernie Hills in Brisbane .
So talk us through that , the thought of going borderless and going out , sort of something that you knew really well , and then trusting someone else to do that on your behalf . What tell us through the you know ? Talk us through the journey for that .
Yeah , I guess , being near the border , it's sort of it's interstate , but so we're two hours away from here , so yeah , yeah , yeah yeah closest capital city , a lot closer than Sydney for us . But , um , yeah , look , I think we were happy to use I've done enough research at the time .
We were happy to sort of , you know , get a buyer's agent and put our faith in him based on what we'd learned along the way and we sort of knew we were prepared to have , because this one , our first property , had been quite cash flow positive , we were prepared to sort of get in a bit closer to the city and be a bit negative to sort of balance out that
portfolio . We could handle a little bit of sort of negative gearing on that one because our first one was so positive geared . So we were sort of aiming for that real growth asset up in Brisbane , you know , 12 kilometers from the city and so take us through um what we paid for that one so that was $560,000 .
It's a full bedroom , two bathroom um double carport house on over 800 square meters , nice big corner , corner block and a nice leafy suburb , like lots of old Queenslanders , really family friendly . Um own occupier , over 80 percent like ticked all the boxes . Basically , from like all my learnings of you , know what we needed to do there .
So that's been a bit sluggish with its rent because , um , you know it was negatively , negatively geared . But you know post-COVID and things that sort of caught up now .
But I can see how if you start with that kind of investment property and you're not prepared for the negative cash flow , you can really be have a negative mindset about property investing and what's going on here and not seeing that growth for a few years .
I can see how people can really you know the order and the and the pairing and what you do I really see how it can get you down and not get those rewards and you can really see why people sell out after a few years because you're not getting that sort of um reinforcement , that you're heading in the right direction so so fast forward to today now , and
sort of roughly , what's the value of that property ? Um , it's about 900 000 that one and we get 700 a week rent .
So yeah , we're pretty , pretty happy from . Not only was it not 560 , yeah , and , and so that's going well . The difference between the two processes ? One is your first purchase was very hands-on , wasn't it like ? Like , ultimately , you've gone , you've , you've , you've done a lot of work , you've you've people told you know , can't be done , can't be done .
You've had to find the builder to get it done . You've had to project manage that process . Now , that's been manageable , but you but . But in doing so , you've , you've turned Apple into Apple Pie and got a really great result , but it hasn't been . That really wasn't passive .
The trade-off for the second one is you've gone , you know the other way , which is a lot more passive , um , but to your point , um , it hasn't necessarily manufactured the equity yet . It's just a set and forget and and hold . Do you , do you have an opinion on each of those experiences in terms of you know , the appetite to to do it again ?
yeah , sure , I mean obviously with the build . You know it was probably a two-year process by the time you buy the land and the land , settling and then building the property , so that it's the opportunity cost , I guess , of being in a development , as opposed to like just getting a buyer's agent and getting it done straight away .
So yeah , look , they both have their advantages , but um , yeah yep , I think that's a clear assessment .
So we go from two um , and then is that when the first child arrives ?
yeah , yes , I'll , I'll some pregnant then . Actually we bought that in November and we had our first son in March . So we I was definitely looking pregnant at the mortgage brokers there , so we had to sort of get that one across the line , and then they know how to year off when we had our first son .
So , yeah , things kind of slowed down a bit then who's the driver here ?
Amy out of ? Clearly you are , but is how on board is Samantha in terms of the discussions ? Is there an equal conversation piece or are you leaning in more ?
yeah , I'm definitely leaning in more . I mean , she's not listening to property podcasts like I am . She's got other interests . But yeah , we both share values same values , same morals . We're heading in the same direction .
So she knows how much how passionate I am about it and how much reading and learning I've done on it , so she's pretty much happy to trust my judgment on where we're heading and what we're doing what about when you say oh look , um , this one here .
Instead of us doing it , we're going to engage your buyer's agent to do it on our behalf ? How did that conversation go ?
yeah , well , obviously it's an outlay of money . That yeah is like , oh , why do we have to ? Why do we ? Why are we doing that ? So I guess , just , just , yeah , just explaining it and the benefits of it , and yeah , why we're doing it . And you know all those little percentages you talk about . You know like 1% difference in capital growth over 30 years .
The buyer's agent fee is insignificant , isn't it ? So it's just sort of having a long-term view , I guess , of the whole process and the whole picture oh , I think , super smart and , and I think you know , you've been able to demonstrate that .
So , um , we have a little bit of time off , we have the first sun , and then we've got a three year old and now one year old , so , but there's , there's also another acquisition . I'm looking at my screen here .
So there's another acquisition , also locally as well , by the looks of it yeah , so we went , we did another build , but this time we went to a joint venture with my parents . So , um , I was the project manager and mum and dad provided the deposits on that one to be paid back .
But , um , I think we had a one year old , maybe I was still an attorney leave . Maybe Sam was pregnant with our second child . So we had a um servicing issue on our end , um , but we also had the skills of the project management to help them out . So it was a real team effort there .
So we bought another block block of land and we built a duplex , this time in Lenox , in Lenox head as well fantastic , yeah , duplex for the , for , obviously , the double income now , um , that's a pure investment as well .
There's , no , there's no , you know opportunity for your folks living in one of them or well , mum and dad moved straight into there's actually and lived in it for three years and have just recently sold it , so um we rented ours out straight away .
Initially , there was you know , we thought maybe we could do this build , make a hundred thousand and then do some renters on our own home . That's initially why we went into it . And then COVID hit and then it went .
The market went nuts here and it we increased our value quite a bit there and the rent was paying the mortgage and we sort of decided to hold it as a long-term sort of investment . Mum and dad lived in theirs and then sold it after three years and have moved back to the place they were in before .
Um , but yeah , once the project was finished and all done , we separated the titles and got our own mortgages and divided everything back to normal . But yeah , we definitely needed them for the servicing at the time and they probably needed the push from us for the , the build and the project management side of things from me .
So it was was nice yeah , it's a wonderful story .
I mean , and did you know like , at one point in time , you said I want to do this , but oh , no , no , that's right , you didn't guarantee and save us $4,000 an LMI . So did you get any sort of little right of reply there or something like that ?
no , we didn't , it's . It's funny . There's a little rain for us sort of area at the back where you've got 10 meters of land and dad wanted to pay a bit extra and put a gate out the back of his fence so we could do some gardening out the back and since they've moved out , the tenants next door want to go .
Our tenants want to gate now because dad's not mowing and maintaining out the back of their place . So now we've got to put in a gate to on because because the weeds are growing out the back and dad's not living next door anymore mowing it , mowing out the back so , dad , this is costing me more now .
And you've got , you've taken your , your principal place of residence exemption and taken the cash out after three years of living there yeah , very good .
Hey , um , can you rewind a little bit , amy and uh , because you've got , um , you've , you've now got three properties in New South Wales and you've got , uh , one in Queensland . So when there's a conversation in Queensland about land tax that says , not only will we tax you on the land you hold in Queensland , but we'll tax you on land you hold elsewhere .
What , what was , what was that doing to your anxiety levels before ? Clearly it's been knocked on the head . But if we were rewind to the uncertainty around that , how are you feeling about that point ?
yeah , I think there was a lot of noise . I think until things are actually happening , it's easy to just ignore , because every week there's something . I think the Greens this week in Brisbane are talking about rental freezes now I think you know every week there's something .
So I think until it actually comes in , you know not going to worry about that , and there would have been a lot more people hurting a lot more than us with their portfolios all over the country if that was to come in . But it was just ridiculous policy like I don't . I don't know that .
All the people I was into was sort of saying it was never going to get up well , it sounds like you're really pragmatic , amy , around you know . You just said oh , you know , not until it's done . It's done , I mean what ? What is what does it mean for you , given we've just experienced the interest rate tightening cycle that we have ?
How have you navigated that ? Has there been any mindset shifts that you've needed to make because of that ? What ? What's the ? What's the lessons that people listening this can learn about how you navigated that ?
Yeah , I think obviously all our mortgages have gone up a fair bit , but I think we've had adequate buffers in our investment properties and then buffers for our personal life too . So they're there to last a year to two years , and I believe interest rates will be coming back down at some point in the next year or two . So it's okay , you just ride the wave .
That's part of it , I think . Right now , interest rates are at the same . It's what they were at when we bought our first place in 2011 . So it just look at the long-term averages and that's what it is and just have buffers in place for when times like this happen .
I think we're in a position too , with our servicing where we ideally would like to have interest only lending , but all our mortgages are on principle interest and it's easy to know what the right thing to do is and to say this is what I want to implement .
But if we're choosing to work part-time and we don't qualify for servicing to get interest only lending , then that's the way it is for us . So , yeah , it's definitely a lot because we're on P&I with all our mortgages , but we choose to work part-time and spend time with the kids and that's the trade-off , I guess , for that extra time is servicing , I guess .
I mean , I think I love the way you talk about it being a trade-off , because that's exactly what it is . But the trade-off is quality time with your family and like , at the end of the day , building up a wealth base , building up some passive income , is about getting your time back and being able to juggle that time .
And because you've done such a great job of making those early sacrifices , I've got some notes , delayed gratification , moving to Cal Goalie , doing all of those things that you did and you haven't really missed out on experiences .
They've just been different experiences to your point and I think as you get older you will reflect on the different opportunities and living remotely and what that can mean for you . So but by doing that it's giving you the backbone to save that deposit . And of course , you've been hands-on .
What you've done is you've moved your knowledge base to a high level of competency and by doing that you've effectively executed and taken action with a high degree of confidence . And you mentioned earlier you've made a couple of mistakes . That's me .
Those mistakes are minor compared to some of the train wrecks we see in terms of people making really bad investment mistakes . So I'm really pleased for you and Samantha in terms of what you've been able to put together here . I'm interested in terms of what's the next step for you .
Yeah , I think three children , we're definitely done . That's definitely enough for us . I think the next step is just enjoying time with the children while they're young . Right now we're both working part-time and I love your reverse engineered $2,000 a week passive income and I've kind of reverse engineered our living expenses .
This is what our life costs us right now . And say , 80 grand , we're going to go in and $15,000 , $1600 a week and that's it right now . There's no surplus . That's what we want to do . That's our time trade-off . Right now , we're going to spend some time with the kids and then reassess when they're all in primary school .
The next step , which is the last big rock , which is the family home .
But whether that involves selling a property or going to work for a full-time both of us to get ahead , to make that happen , I'm not too sure what that looks like , but right now that's the most important thing with us is time with the family , time together , and yeah , that's pretty much .
So you see yourself out growing the current family home ? Is that sort of , or just modernising and updating ?
Yeah , look , it's an older place , 1980 , like I said , it's three bedroom , two bathroom , like it's an original condition that the house doesn't face the right direction . On the block we have a beautiful northeast aspect . There's a big shed , like it just faces the wrong way .
So we looked at extensive renovation but then I think the plan is probably going to be a knockdown rebuild , potentially with an attached granny flat that we can rent out , because obviously , getting a bigger mortgage with a knockdown rebuild , we don't want to sacrifice our lifestyle that we've grown to enjoy .
So having that rental next door becomes an opportunity to pay down our mortgage and then also , when our parents get older , they could possibly , or our kids get older , there's somewhere for them to live next door in the future and we don't need that income from the granny flat next door .
I think that's pretty logical .
The theme of our summer series this year , amy , is what money means to you . So you've told us that that's lifestyle choices peace of mind , time with your family , travel , because that was a big part of your backstory . Work-life balance choose what you want to do work less , happiness , relaxation and time for hobbies .
It would appear that a lot of those actually are in place for you . It would appear that most of the things that money means to you are experiences in time rather than things . What lifestyle choices would you like to be doing at some point in the future ?
That is , outside of making sure you're present and spending time with your kids and spending time together as a family ? Is there anything in particular around lifestyle choices that you're looking forward to being able to execute on ? Because you started young , because you believe in delayed gratification , because you're able to play the long game with the investing ?
Yeah , I think community I think our elder son starts primary school very soon and I think that whole community and giving back and I think get the financial sort of house in order and you can really build on relationships and your sense of purpose in the world , and I think that's really important with our kids . The legacy piece too .
We don't want to hand them a bunch of properties . We want to teach them how to fish , like my parents taught me to . So I think it's giving them those experiences being part of the community in their schools or whatever and having that time to be in sporting clubs and community activities .
I'm not too sure what the whole contribution piece looks like for us at this stage , but I know in the future , like if we've got the financial freedom and the something to do with that family community giving back at some point . I'm not sure how yet though .
The seven grades of financial wellbeing , contribution being the seventh and top grade . So it sounds like you're putting enough thought and energy into it .
I'm sure that whole idea will just naturally find its feet with you in terms of what you've been able to put together , because you're a credit to yourself , you're a credit to the effort you've put in , and you and Samantha are in terms of backing yourselves to being able to do this .
That's what Bryce mentioned earlier , that he wanted to get you know more female representation on the summer series , and you're an absolute credit to people who are getting out there on the female side , who are making a difference and , you know , taking care of their families , and I think that's just a wonderful story and I'm so glad that you chose to share it
with the community as being a long time listener . So my final question to you is yeah , what got you over the line in terms of wanting to tell your story for the benefit of the community ?
I guess , just seeing like with interest rates rising in the way the world is at the moment , I think a lot of people are struggling to sort of get ahead and I think the opportunity for us to move to the other side of the country , you know , decrease living expenses and save money I think it's so many incentives in the country right now to like move out of
where you are and maybe I'm speaking to someone in Sydney or Melbourne who's just on the treadmill that just can't save any money and life's expensive , like . There are other options and I know that's speaking from a place of privilege , you know because we've done it .
But I think you know , unless you're tied to a city , like even if it's a young person just for a year or two , get out and see the country and at the very least you'll get . You'll meet new people , you'll have new experiences , your family and friends will all be there when you get home .
Like get out , see the country and potentially like save some money and get ahead or even , you know , find a new home somewhere else . That's not no multimillion dollar house , you know , like we did a two month camping holiday earlier this year and we went up the North Coast of the East Coast of Australia and we went up to Port Douglas .
You know , three kids got a pod on the roof of the car and put the tent on and we just saw some amazing places . And yeah , it was hectic , but it's hectic at home with three kids under school age , so , but they had a ball and some beautiful coastlines and beautiful small towns and very affordable property .
And obviously everyone's job can't take them you people can't move their job all over the country . But yeah , it depends , you know , on your profession , your industry and what you do , of course . But yeah , if you've got no ties or or no profession , like there's so many opportunities out there to just get out of Sydney and Melbourne and have a crack .
Yeah , I think because , you know , just reflecting on what you just said , I think the key takeaway from your story for me is just the just the choose your hard .
Do you want to choose hard for a year where you go somewhere foreign to save up a deposit , or do you want to choose your hard staying in a built up big city , either taking on a big mortgage at first or not being able to get into the property market ?
I think it's , you know it's it's a demonstration that , yes , because of that delayed gratification , because you are down the track and you are achieving great results , but that's your highlights real , you're behind the scenes was well , I did have to take those , those harder decisions back when it would have been easier to , you know , stay where you were , and so
I think that's , I think that's a wonderfully powerful message and I hope that everyone hears that .
And there is a there is a couple of people that we speak to in this summer series who have a , who have a similar message to you is , if you are prepared to do something a little bit different , you don't have to accept the narrative that getting on the property ladder is actually impossible or hard to do or not for millennials or whatever it is , because it
largely just comes down to a bit of sacrifice . But I think for me , the key takeaway is choose your hard . Do you want to do your hard now or do you want to do your hard later ? But at some point in time , that's if you , if you are willing to to take the road less traveled you can , you can enjoy the things that you want to enjoy .
And we go back to what Manny means to you You've , you're actually achieving most of those things already . There's just a couple of those other things that are a bit more time and a bit more growth in your portfolio achieve . So is that , is that a fair key takeaway , or do you reckon there's another message that really brings it home for you ?
Yeah , no , I think that's it . I think it's you know , stepping outside your comfort zone , questioning the staff's quo , and you know they say you get ahead by doing doing the opposite to what most people are doing . So if you can find a way to do that , I think there's potential to you know , definitely sort of get ahead . That's you know for sure .
I mean even the whole working part time thing , like even if you're not moving into a different state , like if you've got the same job and you pay off your hex have a look at a tax calculator , maybe work a nine day full night , you might have the same takeover pay , but balance your lifestyle a bit more .
And I think , sam and I , we both enjoy our jobs in our careers and I think that longevity of working part time , like we don't have a line in the sand of a retirement date , we enjoy what we do , so we're living the lifestyle by design that we want now and we're happy to you know it doesn't have to be 55 or 60 or any any retirement age that it is .
As long as we keep enjoying what we're doing , we'll still work a couple of days a week . So my dad always said it's about the journey , not the destination , and I think we're doing our best to you know , live the journey .
Ah , it's a wonderful story . It's filled should feel everyone full of optimism , should hopefully give people the you know , the idea that you know property investing is not about having 10 properties and you can you can just put a few into the portfolio , get on with life , have the balance that you've talked about , and I think it's a .
It's a it's a wonderful journey . So I think that , on behalf of everyone here at the property couch , amy , thanks for sharing your story today .
Really appreciate your time , boys , thank you .
Oh , ben another incredible story of how Amy and Samantha have navigated , building a property portfolio , raising children and again doing it outside of capital , capital cities .
Yeah , I mean , you know that sacrifice , that moving out of the comfort zone . It's all about finding a way .
You know , if you think about what Amy was telling us in terms of what you'd earn here , versus moving to the other side of the country to lift that income , which means accelerated deposit for that first property and , you know , did it tough , I think at the end of the day , they love the experience .
I think they'll look back on that experience as an amazing one , but it certainly fast-tracked their particular story and then the value add part of their story turning the apples into apple pie sort of again demonstrated that move . Now , what we have seen there is a lot more active approach in terms of how you're doing that .
So there's always that trade-off in terms of buying something and set and forget , but being able to be , have the time to do that and the dedication to apply for that has resulted in what I'm talking about here is about living the journey . So she's not waiting for the destination . The you know both her and Samantha and the kids .
You know hearing the story about being able to travel and have that time . You know a couple of months here , a couple of months here exploring Australia and building those incredible memories and those incredible experiences for those kids . That's all because of the effort and the sacrifice that was made early on .
So you know , I can't speak highly about the way that they've done it . Looking at their data inside the more platform I just look at their wealth speed , the wealth clock and the wealth trackage is basically telling us that story . You know , being able to see all that progress being made Over the journey is just . I mean they should .
They should remind themselves of that in any time where they might getting wobbly on interest rates and those sorts . Just jump on the more platform , have a look at that and go . You know what this is actually . This is actually playing out just as we'd like it to play out .
So a credit to Amy and and obviously , a game where the beneficiary of of her sharing a story to the community .
Well played , amy . We love that you came on . We love that you answered the call out to come and share your story , yours and Samantha's story . And I love the bit about over in Western Australia , been in Calgolly and just being able . I think it really rams home the message around some people who were saying , hey , I can't get on the property ladder .
Hopefully you'll see weaved through the theme of this summer series is you'll see people have gone . Well , how do I look outside the square to to make sure that I don't go ? Oh well , I'm just a victim of circumstances . No , I've actually just moved and pivoted and found a way to make their circumstances allow them to get on the property ladder .
So I'm excited about the stories that we got ahead of us , ben , but yeah , amy and and by extension , samantha , thanks for sharing your story here on the summer series . But lots to come .
So , uh , mate , until next week knowledge is empowering , but only if you act on it . Well said , see you next week .
Folks , hey , folks , bryce , here again . I just wanted to catch you real quick before you go .
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