457 | CHRIS VOSS: FBI Hostage Negotiation Masterclass on Why You Should Never Split the Difference

And Ben Kingsley , chair of Property Investors Council of Australia and a back-to-back winner of the Property Investment Advisor of the Year Award , and both are partners of the multi-award winning Empower Wealth , co-creators of more , the Freelife Style Design app , as well as bestselling authors of the Armchair Guide to Property Investing and Make Money Simple Again .

Stay tuned as they bring you the Insiders Guide to Property Finance and Money Management .

So just helping those people who might be tuning in on YouTube as opposed to the audio , if you're seeing me , I'll step back . I don't look too close .

Ben , we've got a very special guest today and I know I say that a lot . Ben , over the last eight years , this particular guest I have been chasing for six years , six years , and I'll just flag , ben , that I've only really been nervous , super nervous , twice on this podcast .

Once was when we went into Parliament in New South Wales and met and spoke with the then Premier on the Honourable Dominic Perotet . I'll be honest , Ben , I was a bit nervous at the beginning of the conversation . This particular one I was too . I'll link largely on the back the fact that I wanted to have this conversation with Chris for many , many years .

So , first of all , just flag that . But I think it's super exciting .

I think the topic of negotiation and the unique skill set that this particular guest has it doesn't matter if you're in sales or you negotiate it's going to teach you how to negotiate with your loved ones and your friends and the people and just the simple negotiations you go through every day . Let's just flag that . That's exciting news coming up .

But before we get there , ben , we'll just do a couple of things . We'll set it up with the mindset minute and obviously back on track with the art of spending . So with Morgan Howeson , I'm really really loving this right . So this one here today is number 10 .

And it's not knowing what kind of spending will make you happy , because you haven't tried enough new and strange forms of spending , right . So he talks about , at the beginning of this particular section , just organisms .

The great eliminator , it's millions of mutations that they sort of break away , and then eventually survival of the fetus , and they use this as a frame up to say that spending should be a bit like that as well . So a lot of people have no idea what spending will make them happy .

So what you should buy , where you should travel , how much you should save , because there is no single answer , because everybody is different . So here's the unique observation . He says well , people just default to whatever society tells them . So which is whatever the most expensive will bring you the most joy , right ?

But he says that's not usually how it works . You have to try spending on tons of different oddball things that's his term , oddball things before you find what might work for you . For some it's travel , for others , they can't stand being away from home as they travel for work , and nothing is more appealing than not traveling .

For some it's nice restaurants , for others they don't get the hype and it's cheap pizza in fast Mexican . Or for others , flying first class is a borderline scam , whilst others wouldn't sit behind row . Four right , so okay , so that's fair enough .

But the more different kinds of spending you test out , the closer you will likely get to a system that works for you . Wow , kind of makes sense , right ? And he says these trials don't have to be big . Maybe a $10 new food item , a $75 treat , slightly nicer shoes , whatever it will be . But there's no guide on what will make you happy .

You just have to try a million things and figure out what it is that fits your personality . That's really good bet . So , number 10 , come in and not knowing what kind of spending will make you happy , because you haven't tried enough new and strange forms of spending , interesting , yeah .

So rather than sort of maybe buying a cheap pair of business shoes or something like that that might last me 12 , 18 months , I've got a pair of shoes on now that I've had you know that I paid double the price for that have lasted about seven years . So that's just a little example of you know what you learn on the journey .

So you should , you should mercilessly eliminate all costs that don't matter to you and then just over indulge and spend on the things that actually bring you joy . Otherwise you go . Well , what's actually the point ?

Four was the emotional attachment to large purchases . Five was the joy of spending can diminish as income rises , so that sort of doubles down on what we're just saying . Well , let's find where the joy of spending still matters to you . Number six was asking $3 questions when 30,000 questions are all that matter .

Seven was social aspirational spending is trickle down consumption patterns from one socio economic group to the next . Number eight was an underappreciation of the long term costs of purchases , with too much emphasis on that initial sales price .

And number nine , which is my favorite by far , no one is impressed with your possessions as much as you are , and I think that's the key to unlocking a lot of unhappiness , because they don't get that , and credit cards and stuff you know for stuff that people aren't even noticing .

And then , obviously , number 10 , not knowing what kind of spending will make you happy , because you haven't tried enough new and strange forms of spending . And there we go as we continue to go through the list . But , ben , I don't think we should delay any further .

We should go and have a little little listen to the conversation you and I had recently with a very , very intriguing , interesting former FBI hostage negotiator . Let's have a listen now . Alright , then we've got a very special guest today . We are chatting with Chris Voss , who is a former FBI hostage negotiator and author of the book Never Split the Difference .

He is an adjunct professor at Harvard Law School , georgetown University's Macdonnell School of Business , and a lecturer at the Marshall School of Business at the University of Southern California . Chris has used his many years of experience in international crises and high stakes negotiations in prior to 2008 .

He was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI , as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council's Hostage Working Group . During his career , he also represented the US government as an expert in kidnapping at two international conferences supported by the G8 .

Before becoming the FBI's leading international kidnapping negotiator , chris served as the lead crisis negotiator for the New York City Division of the FBI . He was a member of the New York City Joint Terrorist Task Force for 14 years . He also negotiated the surrender of the first hostage taker to give up in the Chase Manhattan Bank robbery .

During Chris's 24 year tenure with the Bureau , he was trained in the art of negotiation not only by the FBI , but also Scotland Yard and Harvard Law School . He is also a recipient of the Attorney General's Award for Excellence in Law Enforcement and the FBI Agents Association Award for Distinguished and Exemplary Service .

He is a regular commentator on CNBC , cnn , msnbc , fox News and NPR . He's also featured in Forbes , the New York Times , inc . Variety and Time Magazine . In 2019 , he created and narrated a masterclass the Art of Negotiation . He is the CEO of the Black Swan Group . Welcome to the property couch , chris . Thank you very much .

You were speaking at the Australian Real Estate Conference on the Gold Coast and I remember saying to Ben hey , listen , it would be an ambition of this podcast to get Chris to join us one day , and we had a couple of knockbacks from your team , but we're super excited that well , you're resumé , clearly your man in demand .

So we appreciate you taking the time today . As we said before we started , it's three o'clock yesterday for you , eight o'clock today for us , but we're excited to chat . Hey , we always start our first question with our guests asking what money conversations were like over the dinner table when you're growing up .

My father was a very much lead by example kind of guy and he was never lavish with his money . He was I wouldn't say that he was frugal , but he wanted to make sure that he didn't waste his money . So it was more . I learned more about money by my father's example than actual conversations .

Any man does not get a who's married or whatever the circumstance is , does not get a tremendous amount of support from the significant other the spouse , I agree . So as she had less to do at home , she became more directly involved in my father's business . But originally a stay at home mom .

You weren't going to get any more money . You go all you wanted . He didn't care , yeah , and he also gave us a very set amount of money and I always stayed within that . I always stayed within my budget . I mean , I knew how much I could spend .

I knew how long it would take me to spend , and that was a habit I really learned when I handled my own money . When I was in college , I always tried to make it a point to have a little bit of money left over at the end of each grading period so that I could roll into the next year .

And when I was a senior and I had some more expenses and I went out and I got an additional job , and when I got out of college and I became a cop and I never believed in debt , I always thought that was a bad idea .

Credit card debt , just a trap that could just slowly drown you , and so I kept very close track of my finances and I always stayed within what I had to spend . It was kind of it was simple math to me . Yeah , beautiful .

Can you tell us your favorite story that you like to share with audiences over the journey , where it sort of gives us an insight into how high the stakes were for you to make sure that you got it right in the negotiations that you're a part of ?

And as soon as you start getting feel for the markers of the process along the way and one of the things that I talked about that conference it doesn't matter what side of a transaction you're on I learned to call people regularly and tell them what was going on and if nothing was going on , call them and say nothing is going on , and people find that

tremendously reassuring . People really want to know when they're going to hear from me , first and foremost , not necessarily what I'm going to say , but just that they know that they can set their watch . The phone is going to ring and I'm going to be on the other end .

When I said I was going to be on the other end and it was very much in Manila me and my team were not doing a great job with the victim families of the kidnappings and there was a guy that worked for the State Department named Ted , who was just like this really gregarious kind of out there personality , and he finally called me on a phone and he said

like you guys are screwing us up , like the families don't like you and they love me and I love you guys . So I want you to know what you're doing wrong . You're leaving them in the dark . They don't know when you're going to call and I tell them you're going to hear from me every day and a half .

And when I call them on a phone , if I got nothing new to tell them , I say I got nothing new to tell them . And calling to inform people that there is no news until you know better makes you the caller feel stupid , like oh , they're going to think I'm not doing my job . You know , you think I'm lazy , you know it's your amygdala kicking your butt .

But in point of fact , the people on the other end of the phone are greatly appreciative of it . I mean , they love it and they just want to know that they're going to hear from you .

And in that particular instance in the Philippines , no matter what side of any kind of transaction I'm at on , I say look , don't leave , never leave people wondering when they're going to hear from you , because you only want to call when you have good news and then when you have bad news , you're going to call but you put it off because you're hoping the bad

news goes away and that just that . Just people hate it . Uncertainty here's how stressful uncertainty is . I'm a big fan of Andrew Huberman . He happens to be a friend Huberman Labs podcast , one of his podcasts .

Recently they were saying what's more stressful if they're , if you're in a lab and they're going to hit you with an electric shock , do you feel better knowing you're going to get shocked every time or do you feel better knowing you're only going to get shocked half the time ?

And people actually prefer knowing they'll get shocked every single time because it removes the uncertainty . And if they tell people you're only going to get shocked half the time , uncertainty goes through the roof and it's a far more horrific experience . Now , the logic of that is insane .

We're going to cut your pain by half and the uncertainty is going to make it a worse experience for you . So figuring out the way to put certainty into interactions is a competitive advantage that the vast majority of my competitors have no idea about , and I love it because I want that advantage for myself .

And so I took bargaining and I had a lot of crisis intervention , empathy , emotional intelligence , if you will , and I thought well , what happens if we mix in some of this empathy into the process ? Maybe we'll get our way sooner and we'll get to the goal and we won't meet in the middle , we'll meet much closer on our end .

You know , we'll retain the advantage and we'll never make the other side man . So it was a way to pull the other side out of the process of the predictable haggling and gain the upper hand emotionally and get to the outcome sooner . So we're bargaining over people's lives . The family ultimately makes a decision on whether or not a ransom is going to get paid .

It's my job to offer them advice and really to keep as much money as possible out of the kidnappers' hands to make kidnapping less profitable because it's a business , and put them out of business by taking the profit out of it . So it was just commodities bargaining and the horrifying thought was the commodity was human beings .

Because contacting them is one thing , but giving them some sense of how this is going to play out , do you start with that at the start ? I mean , you know , if I think about that from a property point of view , that's the classic story , right ? There's uncertainty .

I don't know how many people I'm competing against , so I'm trying to get that knowledge from the selling agent to sort of know where my position is , to understand my certainty . So how much of the playbook are you releasing to them to give them some sense of comfort ?

So , instead of saying like , look , here's a process , it's going to how it's going to work out , I would only I might outlie minimums . For example , you know , I'm working at a kidnapping in Haiti and I tell the father all right , so here's the dynamics that the other side's dealing with and here's how it's going to affect their decision making .

And that's not laying out the process to him at all . No , what it is is removing his uncertainty as to what he's faced with . And people want to know that you understand the landscape . And if you understand the liant landscape , then it's pretty good , pretty good chances that two things are going to be true . Number one , you've got a plan .

And number two , you're prepared for when the plan hits glitches . Because everybody knows , you know there was an American general that said no plan ever survives the first encounter with the battlefield . And there's over and over and over . That phrase is out there . So if you've got a plan but you don't know how to adapt .

When there are glitches in your plan , then your plan is almost . Your plan is better than having no plan , but you need to be able to adapt in a moment . So if you lay out the landscape , you know here's what the other side's looking at , here's how they're going to react , here's what they're thinking about .

All the rest of that has a tendency to fall into place really quickly . And what ? So what I would do is I know the primary things that are that are clouded my customers , brain , the fears , what they are . I would . I would walk in and I'd say look , this is how you're feeling . I know you're angry . I know you're upset . I know you feel alone .

I know that you think that your government has failed you . Now I'm there as a representative of government trying to get their cooperation . So does it make sense for me to say I know you feel your government has failed you . You feel an intelligence that makes all the sense in the world ?

The reaction from them is like holy cow , somebody finally walked in our door , who's going to tell us the truth ? And then they go like if you're going to tell us the truth about this now . We're interested in listening . And then I'd say , all right , so here's what the here's what the other side's thinking about , here's what they're looking at here .

And then if you do what I asked you to do , then here's when this is most likely going to be over , without actually telling them the process I need to get their buy-in , that I know what I'm doing .

And the fastest way to get somebody's buy-in not to tell them how many times you've done it , not to roll your resume out because there's 10 years of experience and then there's one year of experience 10 times Like you could have a lot of experience and still be an idiot .

You gotta know what people are up against and as soon as you lay that out for them , everything changes .

That's the accusation's audit .

Why don't you go over here to the suicide line and cut your teeth there and circle back ? Can you tell us a bit about that ? And what did you learn ? Because the stakes are just as high on that hotline to what you're doing . What did you learn through that process ?

And so I was rejected from the negotiation team and I said how do I get on ? And she told me go volunteer on a suicide hotline . And then you gotta take that advice . You gotta do it Because those people , the people that should tell you what to do they're gonna pay attention as to whether or not you did it .

When I was in New York , we hated new agents that shopped opinions . You know they come and ask you what to do . They were only hoping you were telling them what they wanted to do anyway , and if it wasn't what they wanted to do anyway , they go ask somebody else . So they're shopping opinions for something that suits them . That's a waste of time .

Listen to the person who's been where you're going . I got on the hotline and I expected volunteering on the hotline to be this long , elaborate process , and the phrase emotional intelligence did not exist back then , but it was just the application of emotional intelligence , empathy . And they said no , no , no , no .

If you do it right , if you do empathy right , these calls are gonna none of them are gonna take more than 20 minutes at a time . 20 minutes for somebody who's just completely been upset for days , weeks , possibly 20 minutes . And so I thought , all right , well , you know , they seem to know what they're talking about .

I learned the process , I bought into the process and they were right . If you use emotional intelligence , you get to an outcome surprisingly fast . And I just remember very specifically thinking when I was on a hotline like this is is this only for people in crisis , or shouldn't regular people wanna be understood too ? Like everyday life ?

Don't people actually wanna be understood regularly ? And I started before I even got on the hostage negotiation team . I started using it in my personal life and started to make a big difference .

That was one of the reasons why when Gary became a hostage negotiator , globally they were referred to as hostage negotiators and Gary changed it to crisis negotiation and most of the world adapted it because of Gary's leadership and influence and the fact that he was right . So Gary had laid that track down , but not very many hostage negotiators , crisis negotiators .

It had the grounding that I'd had because I'd been on the crisis hotline and it worked Like it wasn't a theoretical construct to me which many hostage negotiators slash crisis negotiators . You're laying this stuff out to them . It's completely theoretical . They don't have any experience in it yet because you don't see it in everyday life .

People just don't exercise empathy . There's a lot of sympathy out there that people think is empathy and it's not the same . They're vastly different . They're third cousins at best . So but I had had such a solid grounding of doing it on the hotline that I knew it worked magic . I knew it was astonishingly effective .

So I was determined to continue to be similarly successful in hostage negotiation and I just kind of demanded that people aren't using it .

But the people that were sickened by you know this ineffective mutual weeping to try to achieve outcomes , like the tactical guys are like how do I get you know , the hard boiled guys like me to accept that this soft skill is a superpower and it's similar to , you know , the Navy SEALs .

You try to teach Navy SEALs yoga , breathing , because it'll reduce their stress , and they go like we're not doing that you know that's not manly . And they go like oh well , do this , it's tactical breathing . They're like okay , we'll do that , and it's the next thing . We won't do yoga breathing , but we'll do tactical breathing all day long .

And then , as we learned , we collectively myself , my son Brandon , brilliant negotiator Derek Gont , the people on my team we learned more about neuroscience and we're like , oh , wow , okay , Neuroscience informs us , you know , to the intentional application in very specific ways , which hostage negotiators have been taught just by trial and error .

That actually works with humans . Period Doesn't have to be crisis , it doesn't even have to be anybody that speaks your language , from your culture , religion , none of that stuff . It works because they're humans .

And so tactical became an even better word because it's really the proactive application of emotional intelligence informed by neuroscience , which is hard science .

And so if somebody feels understood , they actually have chemical changes in their brain . The changes how they see things . It changes whether or not they're gonna tell the truth . It changes how demanding they're gonna be , based on the cocktail of neurochemicals the being understood releases inside someone , and tactical empathy is about understanding what those are .

However you wanna look at it pulling those levers , punching those buttons , releasing the chemicals . My company has a very small cadre of extremely capable clients that can't get enough of this . It's so much so that we'll throw a new idea out to them and they will refine it in a week beyond what we originally thought .

I'm talking to one of these guys just a few weeks ago and he says my job is to release the drugstore in their brain . The prefrontal cortex is a joke . It's an illusion . The reptile brain drives people and the drugs that influence the reptile brain are oxytocin , serotonin , dopamine . You understand how to release those and you guide .

The lizard brain and the prefrontal cortex is a mask at best .

Like that is the universal , because , no matter what somebody says , they got a reason for it and they're dying to tell you , as long as you don't argue , or that they're afraid of one or two things , that you'll argue with them , or you'll say you know , yeah , the same thing happened to me .

And then you go off on a tangent for the next 15 minutes about your own experience . It has nothing to do with them , they might as well leave the room while you talk . And so it sounds like you got a reason for saying that People open up and it's the innocuous things like that that are game changing .

One is that's right , using those statements to get them , and the second part is you call them calibrated questions Because in the book it's a wonderful story . You're negotiating with Harvard students . The teacher says , ok , go and negotiate , here's your money . See how much you end up with .

At the end of the story you've got the whole amount of money from the student . And these students are not numpty negotiators , they're cutting edge techniques that they've been taught . And you go and get all the money .

So the teacher goes well , laughs and says , all right , well , let's see if it was a fluke , gives you another swing at it , and then you do exactly the same on the next day with someone so clearly , clearly , these techniques work in the real world . But how do you do that ? Why should we never split the difference ?

How do you get it so that you get what you want ?

Because it means it applies to all people globally humans , not Kahneman , as an Israeli-American Israeli-born , so it's not American All people . A loss stings twice as much as an equivalent game . You give up $5 in a negotiation . You feel like you gave up 10 . Now the other side may have only gained $5 , but you feel it was unfair to use the F-word .

So you're not happy until you get them back for twice as much as you lost . Well , how does the other side feel about that ? That causes the downward spiral . It's not possible to split the difference . Meet in the middle and have both sides feel anything other than short-changed , unhappy , dissatisfied .

It's a guarantee for downward spiral in a relationship or in real estate . What do you care ? Referrals your reputation precedes you wherever you go . Your reputation walks into the room before you do . People have scouted you out , people know who you are and either you do or you don't get referrals .

You start splitting the difference and if anybody talks about you at all and most likely they're just damning by faint praise or simply failing to respond . They're not going to say nice things about you . There are going to be no stirring endorsements of your ability to negotiate by splitting the difference ever so .

That's the main reason I went off on a little bit of a rant on that , and I know there was more of your questions .

Now , what and how questions also require a lot of brain power to answer , so you begin to wear the other side down . You begin to get answers out of them Because they're worn down .

They have a tendency to be a little more agreeable and they don't feel that you're wearing them down or really constraining what you're asking them , because what and how questions feel so good to respond to . So what I really did to gain the upper hand on those lawyers to be was just wear them out with what and how questions .

You want to know what are the game-changing things to hear from the other side , not to say to them , or what to hear from them and that's right is what people say when you've hit the nail on the head , when you've hit the bullseye , when you've gotten it exactly correct . And it's what people say when what they've heard is a truth .

So , consequently , they're reacting positively to you . They see you , at a bare minimum , as somebody that tells the truth . Now , when you start getting into that's rights in regards to what they really want , what they may potentially need , you're triggering , then , different reactions in them . You're triggering bonding . They're bonding to you .

I referred to oxytocin earlier . Oxytocin is the bonding drug . Oxytocin is also the truth-telling drug .

Like if I'm releasing an oxytocin in you , if I'm getting you to bond with me because I'm a truth-teller and you appreciate that you're actually more likely to be honest with me , and then if I really get into one of something that you really need but you've kind of forgotten about or you're blind to the fact that it's driving you , then you get serotonin , and

serotonin makes people feel satisfied . They want less , they're less demanding . So this chemical cocktail of your own neurochemicals are making you more agreeable with me , making you feel closer to me , making you more honest with me and making you less demanding .

So if I don't make the deal entirely by getting that's rights out of you , I've just moved myself significantly closer to the outcome . It's probably within sight , within reach .

I get you to agree to this you wanna make more money , you wanna live in a bigger house , you wanna have a nicer car , you wanna send your kids to a better school . Then , when I hit you with my big ask well , of course you have to say yes .

Well , this con has been run globally on every human being over the age of 18 for the last 40 years and at some point in time somebody cheated you using this con , and you may not remember that it was exactly this yes momentum nonsense that did it . But since you got cheated as a human being , your survival instincts , it's gonna trigger your gut .

Our survival instincts remember the negative experiences to a far greater degree than the positive experiences . So it's triggering a gut interaction . And so what do you do when somebody tries to get you to say yes ? You give the counterfeit yes , and the vast majority of yeses that are out there are simply counterfeit .

It's me getting you to go on while I pump you for information . It's a false yes . It's gonna turn into , most likely , me just ghosting you stopping returning to , returning your phone calls , your emails . You know , I'll tell you . I'll say something like yeah , you know , give me a lot to think about .

You know , when you're right versus that's right , I'll say you're right about a lot of the stuff that you talked about and let me get back to you and then you're never gonna hear from me again because they've been giving you the counterfeit . Yes .

But what does it look like when you jump on that first call and it's live and experiences , that thing you get two minutes after you need it . So , but you're in a position where you don't have that luxury . What did that feel like , that very first negotiation that you had to do Cause it was successful ?

And the hard part for this is letting go of the path and the specific outcome . Human beings are wired . In every instance that we encounter , we think of something that I refer to as DPO duration , path and outcome . Where do I wanna go , how long is it gonna take me to get there and how am I gonna get there .

And on the hotline I had learned within a rough guess . I got a pretty good idea how long it's gonna take . Now we're gonna be all over the map on the way and I just need to go along for the ride . And as long as I do my thing , my process is gonna carry me through .

So when I first got on the line at the Chase Bank , I was just you know , let me say hello and see what happens , because the process is gonna carry me through .

And we sense , you know , collectively , the team I'm very coachable and I'm talking to this guy definitely thinking I'm trying to get a hostage released , and somebody else on the team , just a gun instinct , is telling him that this guy wants to come out . And I get a note from a FBI agent I don't know . At the time Jamie Sidenio hands me the note .

He says ask him if he wants to come out . And I go do you want to come out ? And the guy says I don't know how I do it , which is a great big giant . Yes , like , if you can lay out a way to get me out of here without getting killed or getting beaten to a bloody pulp , I'm out of here right now .

And so , yeah , I was working on that guy to let hostages go and I would never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better , this dude coming out as one less bad guy on the inside . It's points on the board for us . We'll bring him right out all day long .

Emotional intelligence can be used for good or for evil , and plenty of bad people use emotional intelligence for bad things . Empathy can . I've read articles that say the dark side of empathy , so it's not the tools that are bad , it's what they're being used for .

The two Black Swan negotiators in the Harvard negotiation , we'd quickly to collaborate to figure out how pooling our resources could give us the maximum possible outcome . That's what would happen , and so it wouldn't be a splitting the difference of anything . It would be the combining of resources so that we're both better off , based on a combination .

It's like if you're at a poker table , instead of the person on the other side having a hand that plays against yours , what if you pooled cards between the two of you ? Let's take my five cards and your five cards and come up with the best hand possible . That's what really would . Great collaboration is about combining resources for the best possible outcome .

When you do have relationship breakdowns or when it doesn't go your way , you hear a lot of commentary in business papers about a breakup in a business or a personal breakup , and the answer seems about right because both parties didn't get what they quite wanted , and that's the sort of way in which the narrative goes and that's how they justify it .

But the point you're making there is , if you can get into that conversation earlier and you can think about the greater good that you're trying to achieve , maybe it doesn't have to end that way where both parties to your point end up disappointed , frustrated and relationships break down over a longer period of time .

Or is this just the tone that is natural to you always ?

But I just remember when I first got on the line and the first time you know they train you up and you listen to calls , and then about a third of the way halfway through the training they drop you on , closely supervised , like there's somebody sitting there listening to every word and if you say something stupid they're just going to hang up the phone , because

you know disconnect is less harmful than a negative thing that's being said . And I do have a clear recollection of the first call and the person that was mentoring me said wow , your tone of voice is great . And I remember thinking like why I have no idea what I did .

I was really focused on hearing and that my voice went in that direction and then when they complimented me on it , I was like , oh well , I got to figure this out so I can do it again .

You know the late night FM DJ voice . And then there's the fight guys assertive . You know , I'm just going to tell you the truth , I'm just going to be honest with you . You know they , I , those , and I'm a natural born assertive . So I think that being direct is honest and it really feels like blunt force trauma to you .

And then the make friends guys smiling , happy , you know , happy to talk to you . Hey , how are you ? I love you . Constantly upbeat all the time . And the analyst voice and a natural born analyst got to be careful that their voice isn't too cold .

They have a tendency to come off cold , so the downward inflecting voice needs to have just enough warmth in it so that it's not cold , it's not condescending , but it feels really good .

Comments , contagious If I talk with you , know , calming , soothing voice , then you feel my quiet , confidence and it's reassuring and calming simultaneously and that became the voice of choice for Haas's negotiation . And then it's a voice of choice for any sort of high emotion , high conflict , interaction , any sort of anxieties up , any sort of tension .

The best first move is , you know , just to have a quietly confident voice , and it , it , it's contagious .

So tell me , how much of it do you use in your everyday life and with loved ones you mentioned earlier . Your son is is obviously in the business , which is great . He's obviously an elite negotiator . You know how did you get him through adolescence ? How did you get him to to be that ?

Because we , bryce and I , have a fun joke about you know you can't be the chief in your or the profit in your own village , because you know they won't take direction from you . They're your kids , right ? Their job is to annoy you and get you upset .

I started finding out about him using it to get himself out of trouble in high school and he's he's gotten himself out of trouble Like he got himself out of jail time one time , right by , you know , using the techniques in a story that are just just astonishing that he walked away . So he just really picked it up really much more so by us , most of us .

I mean I suppose I come from a line , you know , my , my , my genetic line , my father's line , were learned by watching , you know , watching , trying to pay attention to the people around us , to learn , I mean figure it out Very much of a figure it out attitude without necessarily being taught . My father tried to teach me how to play golf .

He was a horrible teacher but I thought he set a great example in so many ways . So I think my son just sort of picked it up by us , most of us . Now , how much do I use it in regular life ? I actually use the smiling , even playful , voice a lot more . The calming , soothing voice I'll use to calm myself down , like if I find myself getting triggered .

If I'm getting triggered , the other side's getting triggered or they're going to be if I react inappropriately .

So I'll switch over into the late night FM DJ voice just to get my own emotions under control , and the consequent impact on the other side is always good , and so I'll use it more as much for my gain than for the others , and it really has a tremendous impact on the other side .

It's very , very easy for them to find a buyer . How do we use tactical empathy ? How do we use mirroring and labeling ? How do we , how do we get what we need in an environment where the buyer doesn't really have the position of strength ?

They're actually in the position of weakness in in in a lot of cases , given the amount of people who want , you know , a lot of people want one property and the agent holds all the cards .

Now you got to get everybody more comfortable with you every step of the way . So the more approachable you are from your agent from the very beginning begins to get communicated to the other side .

It lessens the anxiety , like if it increases the chances that if you go look at the property , the seller might still be there when you come through the house because of the big pain in the neck . I mean , they want to .

The agents want to get the seller out of the house before you show up because they're afraid that you're going to circumvent them and then say something that's going to distract everybody . So you want to begin to start .

Everybody's comfort level increases with you and every one of your interactions , because it's going to ripple through the entire transaction and what you ultimately want to do is put yourself in a position where the seller sees you and knows your first name . You don't need anything more than that . You've suddenly become a human being .

What you want to be is not just another name on another offer , just an ink signature on a piece of paper on an offer . You are no more personal to them than a robot , and you are a robot . At that point in time , you want to gain every edge that you can .

Now there may not be many edges there for you to gain , but I don't want to leave any advantages on the table ever . I come from negotiations where the chances are slim and none . So slim looks pretty good to me and , in point of fact , slim is a lot more robust percentage than most people realize . So I'm comfortable with slim . So I want to start .

I want to label and mirror my agent . If we have an interaction where we're in the same place at the same time with a seller's agent , I'm going to label and mirror them . Seems like busy day for you . Seems like it's tough keeping up with all these buyers and sellers .

Seems like your seller doesn't like leaving the house because it makes them feel like a guest in their own house . Seems like we're really intrusive .

Anything that you can start to label how the other side sees the dynamic , increases the chances that every step of the way you're distinguishing yourself from the other buyers and sellers will sell a house and prefer somebody that they like more than others . Enough that I want that advantage when I get it . That's true .

Why protect and serve and get the bad guys really mean something to you ?

I mean , it's a very nature of you know and something that impacted me , that changed the course of what I wanted to do in the world , and so you know , I was bullied , I mean like really scared the death by this guy , and then he cornered me a couple of times and I just got it in me to .

You know want to even the odds where I can for people when they have a disadvantage , so that's one of the reasons why it's continued to drive me to these days .

What's a final word from you that can sort of add to that story in terms of taking action and being the best version of themselves ?

I mean it will begin to accelerate your life in tiny little ways , like there's less friction in my life than there is in the vast majority of other people's lives . You know , I get people to do stuff for me that I'm astonished by , and so it's a way to just have a much more enjoyable life . And it's perishable .

Emotional intelligence the skill goes two ways . You can build it up very quickly , like any other language , if you will . It'll go away if you're not using it . I was in Poland with a native born Polish speaker that had been out of Poland long enough . You forgot the language , and it was a language you grew up in . It was . Second language was English .

So it's perishable , and I'm happy to share what I think is the most ridiculous bargain that we have , and its entirety , for people that are interested in really getting regular skills maintenance .

You can find it in your app store on your phone , fireside and it was originally designed as an interactive podcast and what it really is is group coaching from the Black Swan's best coaches . We have an hour session once a week , every week and one session a month .

I'm on for an hour and we'll have a topic that we're teaching that day and people sign on literally from all over the world . The last one I was on , we had a guy sign on from a mountain top in Tibet , like they were . You got people from all over the world coming off , and so what it is is really group coaching , and so you get .

You get to come on . You got a question ? It's audio and video . We'll bring you up on the stage if you will , and I'll see you and you'll see me . And if you got a question , it's either about the topic of the day or something that you need help with in a negotiation you're in right now .

A guy in Tibet was negotiating with his boss in Tibet and wanted some help on negotiating with his boss and I realized what we're actually doing is group coaching and if we charge your company for the group coaching , it would be about $25,000 a month , and this is a subscription and it's $1,000 a year .

And how we got into position where we're laying something out that is that much of a discount , I don't know . But it's so much fun to do that I don't know .

I'm like , well , this , this app works a long way away , doesn't it ?

Hey , hopefully our audience has now seen why Ben and I spent the last six years trying to get you onto our podcast Personally very grateful for some on my buyer's age and I negotiate as part of everything I'm doing and you've had an enormous influence on that .

So thank you for the work that you're doing , the content that you're creating and , on behalf of everyone here at the Property Couch , thanks for joining us today . Thanks , fellas , it was a pleasure . Thank you , ha . There you go , ben . Hopefully everyone's wondering why after why I was chasing after six years is exceptional .

We have buyers agents in this country that only really partake in probably 5% of transactions , but it's very much . You have a guy on your side who negotiates a deal over there . So that's probably a little bit of context . We didn't have time to sort of explain to Chris what happens in the Aussie market .

It's not relevant , but I tell you what one of the big takeaways for me is the DPO duration pathway outcome . I really , really like that as a simple framework to start thinking about how everything plays out when you're talking about negotiating .

But she's like gives me the look and says I know what you're up to , but hey , listen , I tactical empathy is is incredible , you know , for anyone who wants to consume the stuff . The one of the best places I've consumed Chris's stuff is via the masterclass that he did .

But it's a subscription , you got to pay for it , but just goes through tapes of negotiations that have been through , mocks up some negotiations with people and shows you how to do it .

But if you just do it sounds like it seems like it feels like if you just use that in your repertoire to and genuinely try and connect with someone so that it sounds like they've been connected to people . Humans are just starved of people understanding them , seeing their point of view , connecting with them at a level .

So if you just said it seems like , ben , that you are really passionate about a calling , with support being a calling , with supporter or , ben , it seems like you're really passionate about helping investors . You know , as your work at Pickering it's . It's just . It's just a way of genuinely connecting with someone and it's not that hard to do .

But putting some of those phrases together just helps , like it just better frames the conversation and the narrative , to help get the best out of what they're trying to achieve and you're trying to to understand their position as well . Now , I realize , in real estate we're trying to buy the property for the cheapest possible price , right , you know ?

And they're trying to obviously get the best price for their , for their vendors . So it's it's not not easy to do it in the hostage negotiations there's a lot more on the line . You know . There's a person's life involved here in terms of part of that particular story . This is not life and death in terms of what we're negotiating .

But , to your point , we've we've spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about understanding what's the driver of the vendor and then trying to appease or give them enough confidence that the package of of terms and conditions , in addition to the price of what you're offering , is actually a good deal , you know , and trying to put all of that together is

certainly part of the the , the minutiae and the chemistry that happens as part of any sale negotiation when it comes to property .

One of the one of the techniques I like is one some of the content I've consumed is you know , when you talk to a real estate , you're in a . You know . You know , because quite often the real estate agent has the position of strength if they've got two or three buyers . So you think , well , how do I get that back ?

Well , we just asked the question based on the offer , out of 10 , how likely am I that mine will get accepted ? And he says that the response you get straight afterwards will tell you everything . Because if yours is the top one , well , an eight or not , like they'll be effusive that you're in the box seat . Whereas , because it's an instinctual answer , right .

Whereas if you've put an offer and it's in low and you're not in the game and you said to and you just did a casual remark to the agent . So , out of 10 , how likely is mine to be accepted ?

Well , you know , even even just the delayed response will send you a real message that that you might be able to use as a non verbal pickup as to how you position so negotiating is not easy .

That's why people do it for a living and master their craft , and if you want to be up against a real estate agent who negotiates for a living , you got to know a little bit about negotiation . But yeah , some really good insights for life in general . And so , ben , just a reminder of where we might be able to , if anyone's interested in catching up .

He gave us a little hint towards the end there on what they could do .

So for him to say yes to come and join us down under the original suggested timeframe for us to interview him was going to be 2am in the morning for you and I , ben Mark is assistant , if there was any leeway in that , which we're grateful that there was . So , chris , thank you for joining us to our community .

We hope that you've enjoyed him and if you haven't been exposed to Chris before , I'd gone , encourage you to get under the bonnet and have a look at some of his stuff , because it's really really good . I mean , my , my life hack today . Ben is well , surprisingly , but not .

But I think I think there's an opportunity for you to go and do some of these techniques . So we talked about tactical empathy , going to go and learn a little bit about mirroring , and we obviously have the labeling there , but the mirroring with a real estate agent is something that you continue to get the flow of the discussion gone .

You find two or three words , usually at the end of the last thing that they said . Repeat it back with an upward inflection , in a way to get them to hopefully give you some more information , because you have developed empathy with this person , you've developed a human connection .

So my life hack today is these are tips and techniques and tactics and strategies that I actually use in my life . It's just not some content that I've just had entertained me and then we move on . So I want to encourage everyone to to go and try and use it in real life .

They talk about doing it in low stakes negotiations , because then when it matters , so do it when you're negotiating with your kids , when you're negotiating with the significant other , when you're negotiating with your coworkers , because you both end up getting both what you want and then when it really matters , like a negotiation for a piece of real estate Ben , it's

not like it's your first go and you've got your trainer wheels on is actually in the rear vision mirror . There's a history of opportunities that you've taken to actually test these techniques . So my life hack today is implement the stuff , get it done so that you can actually see the benefits from it . Hey , what's making property ?

But what we did see is , you know , basically common sense did come out of that particular discussion where we did see , obviously , most labor premiers and also a national or federal labor government have made a very wise decision .

They also probably got a little bit of a clue from Philip Lowe in terms of how dumb the idea was anyway , but we are seeing that they'll step away from a rental cap or a rental freeze . We think that's sensible . So thank you , government , for being sensible . Now , this isn't going to go away .

The Greens know , politically , they're on a winner here in terms of attracting new members and potentially new voters to the Greens Party . So they aren't going to let up on this particular story because politically , it's a complete winner for them and their political party . So expect to see more and more pressure being put on by the Greens .

But whilst the most the two biggest parties in the country understand the value of that , of not introducing rental caps or rental freezes . Hopefully we'll move forward . To the Liberal Party , the Federal Liberal Party , I would say to you please pass this housing policy . Stop playing politics on your side of the fence as well .

You know this $10 billion is going to aid supply , coming in for those most vulnerable in the community , so stop again making it a political football that's . You know that the country needs better leadership from you , mr Dutton , so please also do that . So don't worry about the Greens .

This will pass with support from the coalition , so I prefer them to obviously get behind this , because the country does need it . It's a small drop in the ocean of the overall supply that we do need , and a lot of people who might be following you know the activity that I do wearing my picker hat there's .

I get plenty of people telling me that you know I'm not interested in what's happening for owner occupies . We are very interested in seeing Australians have shelter and ultimately , one day having , you know , basically the greatest dream of their own property .

That is true , but what we also want to make sure is that it's a level playing field and that we provide that critical amount of rental accommodation that's available for everyone for that , you know , mobility , the economic advancement and the social advancement as well , so that those two things can coexist .

So it's also important to recognize that , that we aren't , you know , here to bash tenants or renters or any of that sort of thing . So we're just basically trying to make sure that the whole story is understood around the fact that we have seen significant increases in the cost of holding most properties and we've passed on a portion of those to renters .

Our final message around the PIPA sentiment survey it closes tonight , effectively closes tonight . So if you were listening to this on the Thursday that this is going out , please , if you haven't filled that sentiment survey , and please do that If you're an early listener to the pod , obviously those people are picking this up later .

It has closed and , in a shout out and a thank you to any of those people who have filled in that survey , which builds our knowledge and information to pass on the government and regulators , anyone who's also submitted it in an inquiry , a submission to the federal or any of the New South Wales or Victorian reviews and inquiries that are going on around housing

affordability of the rental crisis , all of those things matter because they hear from a voice of the property owner and the small business operator , and that is important . We don't need to lose sight of that . So thanks for the opportunity to obviously use this podcast to talk about that story as well .

If you stick around with the property couch and if you get a chance to share this episode with someone , we would be really , really grateful . If you just screenshot it , send them a link , do whatever it takes for you to get them listening to this content , we would be grateful . Ben hinted at it before too . We now are a full production on YouTube .

We are growing out our YouTube channel . So , those YouTubers , just a shout out to you Go and subscribe to our channel If you'd like to watch it . I know a lot of people podcasters , ben . They're multitaskers , they're joggers , they're at the gym , they're in the train , they're driving to work . That's cool .

But if you're a YouTube incline , go and subscribe to the property couch as well . All right mate Until next week .

If you're new to our community , I want to encourage you to listen to our very first 20 episodes , as the concepts we share in EPS 1 through 20 are foundational principles , pillars and frameworks that you need to know for you to get the best value from our content week to week on our show . My little tip is to listen to it at one and a half speed .

Now , for those of you that are time poor and don't have the option to go back to the beginning , don't worry , because we've got you covered as well . We've created a binge guide that summarized these foundational episodes into one easy to digest booklet so that you can get up to speed super fast .

So go to the show description on whatever device you're listening to now and simply click on the first 20 episodes link to download it straight away .

Oh and , by the way , whilst you're there , you'll find a few extra goodies for you , including a link to download our lifestyle by design app more , the home of wealth speed and wealth clock , and our hugely popular money smarts money management system , as well as how to get free copies of our best selling books .

Now just a reminder that anything we cover on this podcast is not considered to be financial advice , and we certainly recommend that you seek out expert advice tailored to your unique circumstances , and everything we talk about is general in nature .

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