Ep. 5 Agency 007: Partnerships

Greg Arthur (04:30.828)

So, welcome to the Product Design for Learning podcast. We have...

Jess (04:51.59)

Thank you. Jess Andrews.

Greg Arthur (04:54.422)

There we go. And Jess has been in agency side before from a learning development perspective and has now just recently joined Multiverse in a super duper new role. Congratulations, Jess. And she has agreed to come on today and not to talk to us about process. We're going to go slightly off topic and talk about agencies. So Jess, to kick us off, million dollar question. And you've got 60 seconds to earn your million dollars.

Jess (05:07.142)

Thank you.

Jess (05:20.358)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (05:23.733)

Can you frame for us why internal learning teams sometimes use external agencies and why it's important?

Jess (05:31.964)

Great. Thank you. So excited to be here. That is a million dollar question and I think it comes into two camps. One is a logistical side of things in terms of needing support. So people often are quite small. They're in small learning and development teams internally and they need to produce content at scale and quickly. So scale and speed are a big, big part of what they need to be able to do. That's why they might bring in a team of people to support them in doing that.

Great, thank you. So excited to be here. That is a million dollar question and I think it comes into two camps. One is a logistical side of things in terms of needing support. So people often are quite small. They're in small learning and development teams internally and they need to produce content at scale and quickly. So scale and speed are a big, big part of what they need to be able to do. That's why they might bring in a team of people to support them in doing that.

Greg Arthur (05:45.163)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (06:01.895)

But the other side of it is I think they're looking to agencies to bring an element of creativity, to add some extra collaborative nature to things and to add some challenge to them. So they see agencies as industry experts. have a finger on the pulse of what's going on. So they also want that kind of knowledge from the agency as well. So it's a bit of bit of both.

But the other side of it is I think they're looking to agencies to bring an element of creativity, to add some extra collaborative nature to things and to add some challenge to them. So they see agencies as industry experts. They have a finger on the pulse of what's going on. So they also want that kind of knowledge from the agency as well. So it's a bit of bit of both.

Greg Arthur (06:25.493)

Nice. And so we mentioned that you're just super, I would, I would agree. I think there's a slight delay. Sorry if it feels like I'm talking over you. I do agree. think there's someone mentioned to me before about why they're, I know with less learning, they were more kind of PR comms advertising in an internal team. The way they described using external agencies for their work was if we only spoke to each other.

Jess (06:26.514)

Would you agree?

Greg Arthur (06:52.332)

we would only know what each other thinks and we see each other all the time. So we're never expanding our thoughts and our horizons. And if we use an agency and we are getting maybe like a hundred different companies worth of experience just from this one source, which I guess it depends how much you utilize your agency. But that's a, you know, it's a wealth of knowledge to tap into.

Jess (06:56.744)

Mm.

you

Jess (07:15.092)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (07:20.063)

And you've recently just joined Multiverse. It's five, six weeks in now. What kind of things have you been surprised about making that shift from agency side to going internal?

Jess (07:34.143)

Yeah, it's really interesting because on the agency side, you have a lot of control and lot of ownership over pretty much everything because it's such a small organization usually. And you're bringing people in from the start, you're doing the scoping, the discovery, you're designing, you're delivering. There's a lot of space in which you're occupying. And that can be exciting. It can also be a bit overwhelming. There can be a lot of different hats that you're trying to wear.

Greg Arthur (07:45.322)

Hmm.

Jess (08:02.827)

We're moving over into the in-house side. There's an element I'm having to sort of let go of control over some of those aspects of things, because there's a whole team who's dealing with, you know, go to market and sales. And then there's a team that's dealing with delivery. And my brain is kind of thinking, well, what's going on over here and what's going on over there? And one of the reflections I had this week was that.

We're moving over into the in-house side. There's an element I'm having to sort of let go of control over some of those aspects of things, because there's a whole team who's dealing with, you know, go to market and sales, and then there's a team that's dealing with delivery. And my brain is kind of thinking, well, what's going on over here? What's going on over there? And one of the reflections I had this week was that

It's a bit of a shift in thinking of the internal stakeholders at an organization become my clients. So I need to engage with them. I need to build relationships with them. I need to use my influence with them to be able to make sure that we're getting the best learning solutions out there. So rather than, you know, managing relationships with people outside and externally and trying to kind of sell to them and present to them what we're trying to achieve.

It's a bit of a shift in thinking of the internal stakeholders at an organization become my clients. So I need to engage with them. I need to build relationships with them. I need to use my influence with them to be able to make sure that we're getting the best learning solutions out there. So rather than managing relationships with people outside and externally and trying to kind of sell to them and present to them what we're trying to achieve.

This is a bit of a different thing because it's that internal relationship management. So that's new for me and that's been a bit of a shift and a surprise. So I'm so used to thinking externally and now I've got to start kind of looking inward a bit more.

Jess (08:56.892)

Greg Arthur (09:06.845)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (09:14.089)

And what the, mentioned about internal clients. So, so I use that phrase as well. And I was internal around saying, whilst they're not directly in our team, they have to use the internal client phrase, but then I almost had to trip myself up and thinking, well, we're all technically on the same team. We think about like a sports team, you're, you're one team playing against another team. You both want to win. You want the other one to lose. Nice day for whoever wins. Whereas technically,

Jess (09:17.803)

Mm.

Jess (09:35.052)

No.

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (09:43.636)

They've got an agenda, you have an agenda, but technically you're on that same team. So how have you, and I appreciate it might be a bit too early to have a fully formed notion of it, but like, how have you come across that kind of mental shift of, we're kind of on the same team now, but I've still got to, like you said, build that relationship, kind of earn their trust, find out what drives them, what motivates them. How's that kind of played out for you so far?

Jess (10:12.49)

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question. And one of the things I set for myself as a task going into the organization was rather to kind of come in like a wrecking ball and bowl in there and have all these opinions was spend a bit of time. there's, yeah, well, exactly. This is sort of a personality defect potentially, but spend a little bit of time.

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question. And one of the things I set for myself as a task going into the organization was rather to kind of come in like a wrecking ball and bowl in there and have all these opinions was spend a bit of time. And there's, yeah, well, exactly. This is sort of a personality defect potentially, but spend a little bit of time.

Greg Arthur (10:29.244)

Why not?

Greg Arthur (10:34.844)

You

Jess (10:38.282)

actually really understanding how this extremely complex organism works. And who do I need to know? And why do I need to know them? And how does that all sort of connect together in terms of me trying to achieve the things that I am trying to achieve in the learning team? So I've tried to be a very good listener. I've tried to be really observant. I've asked a ton of questions.

actually really understanding how this extremely complex organism works and who do I need to know and why do I need to know them and how does that all sort of connect together in terms of me trying to achieve the things that I am trying to achieve in the learning team. So I've tried to be a very good listener. I've tried to be really observant. I've asked a ton of questions.

Greg Arthur (10:44.968)

Mm.

Greg Arthur (10:57.704)

Mm.

Jess (11:07.107)

and I think just sort of appreciating the complexity, but big organizations are so complex and, and that's something that you could either spend a lot of time resisting and getting frustrated by why, why is the tech team prioritizing these people's requests over mine? Or you can think, okay, there's a lot of requests coming in. There is an element of prioritization that's going on here.

Greg Arthur (11:17.288)

Mm.

Jess (11:34.586)

how can I use influence, understand the system to be able to maybe get the learning requests to the top of the pile? But that takes a bit of time. And I think it takes a bit of appreciation of the fact that this is a machine of sorts and I can't just come in and stick a wrench in because I want something new to be put on the LMS, you know, for example. So yeah, I think, I think

how can I use influence under SAMA system to be able to maybe get the learning requests to the top of the pile? But that takes a bit of time. And I think it takes a bit of appreciation of the fact that this is a machine of sorts and I can't just come in and stick a wrench in because I want something new to be put on the LMS, you know, for example. So yeah, I think, I think

Greg Arthur (11:41.714)

Hmm.

Jess (11:59.37)

I will succeed there if I can appreciate and understand the complexity more than sort of fighting against it. So that's what I'm working on at the moment is just getting to know people, understand what they do, understanding what the processes are, understanding how effective those processes are. Cause it may be that a process is in place, but actually it's not really working. And that's just like a mental note of like, okay, that's something I can revisit later on.

Greg Arthur (12:22.216)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (12:23.823)

But through that kind of curiosity and exploration, think I'm going to be able to understand the machine as a whole better and then how I can work within it.

Greg Arthur (12:35.11)

Yeah, nice one. And I think for anyone moving agency to in-house or even the other way in in-house agency, it's the same game, but with completely different rules. That's probably the only way I could rationalize it. And it sounds very vague and very high level, but you're still doing the same things, but the way you do those things.

Jess (12:50.352)

Mmm.

Greg Arthur (13:04.336)

It sounds so, this sounds so fluffy, but I feel like you know what I'm talking about. it's your, your, your, your, it's, it's until you've, until you've done both, it feels really hard to kind of quantify, but little things that you're saying like building relationships, like if you're from an agency, you're building relationship because you potentially have an agenda of we want to build more work with these people. We want to, we want to start to understand more about them so that whenever we have one project or a hundred projects, we understand them more.

Jess (13:07.12)

Yeah, I do.

Greg Arthur (13:34.216)

because we don't work there every day. We want to gain their trust. Whereas when you're internal, you kind of, you probably see a lot of the same news that they see because you're in the same organization. But then you also now need to understand what does it mean to them? But you kind of build that context quicker, but then you might be in two disparate parts and the context is kind of a biting head. So that's another thing to overcome. it's...

Yeah, that's probably a terrible example, but that's where I've kind of got to. can't really, if anyone else can think of a better way of explaining it that's been in both sonites, then please tell me. It brings me on to my next question, which is, we talked about this briefly earlier and actually the first few times we spoke, what contributes to a really successful agency and in-house relationship?

Jess (14:24.759)

Yeah, this is a really good question and I think it's one that potentially gets a little bit skipped over through the nature of agencies trying to win business with internals and internals need an agency so that there's a moment at which that relationship can become quite transactional. But that's a real dangerous pit to fall into because

Greg Arthur (14:42.3)

Mm-hmm.

Greg Arthur (14:49.446)

Mm.

Jess (14:52.998)

If you want to see both sides as really genuinely collaborating with each other, that collaboration will work best when there's a better understanding of the people who are coming at that from both sides. And that people aspect can be things down to ways of working. It can be the type of language you use for things. It can be down to what gets people stressed. What are your communication styles?

If you want to see both sides as really genuinely collaborating with each other, that collaboration will work best when there's a better understanding of the people who are coming in at that from both sides. And that people aspect can be things down to ways of working. It can be the type of language you use for things. It can be down to what gets people stressed. What are your communication styles?

What is it that's going on in the business internally that we as externals don't know about, but is keeping you up at night that has nothing to do with learning, for example. So I think what we did at the agency that I worked with, that I think did work really, really well was actually spent a lot of time initially getting to know each other and establishing that kind of working relationship. If we can do that in person, it really goes a long way.

Greg Arthur (15:21.85)

Mm.

Jess (15:49.125)

And it's not just scoping the project, right? There's more to it than that. And there's a way of understanding how we are going to communicate with each other so that I don't send you an email at 9 p.m. and that really kind of stresses you out. If you want to get your emails first thing in the morning, we set it so it can come to your be in your inbox at 8 a.m. And particularly in global situations now where you've got people working across lots of different time zones, there's

Greg Arthur (16:04.868)

Yeah.

Jess (16:16.99)

a real danger that you can start kind of pissing people off and pushing buttons without even realizing it just because people are working at different times and doing different things. And a lot of that stuff is very, very easily remedied from the outset. If you ask the right questions and spend that time getting to know how you can work best together. Clients often want to jump into the work. They're like, we've got a deadline. We've got to get going. We also want to get started too.

Greg Arthur (16:23.003)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (16:41.04)

Yeah.

Jess (16:42.89)

But if you can put that extra bit of time in at the start, it will save you later on.

Greg Arthur (16:48.87)

100 % and I think the key thing in that question the key word was there was relationship like if you're I also successful with the middle part of question like if you're if you're in any kind of in-house with in-house agency with in-house and whichever way around that goes if you don't have a good working relationship then I I haven't seen it enough where great products are created with a really

Jess (16:54.165)

Hmm.

Mm.

Greg Arthur (17:16.162)

Fractuous relationship or almost like a disjointed relationship. I think I've seen products be created but not necessarily good ones or ones with longevity or ones where people kind of go That's the one for me. That's that's incredible and and I think as you said people people from either side maybe overlook it because there is a deadline or there's a there's a need to just get on with the work like if we're and again, it's this kind of a

Jess (17:18.613)

Yeah.

Jess (17:22.761)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (17:44.71)

So I feel it from an agency point of view at the moment where people kind of say, we're paying for the work. So can we, can we get on with it? And yeah, I know I want to get on with it as well because you know, sooner it's done, the sooner we can then start to think about measurements and next steps and all these kinds of things. But if we don't even know how the other one wants to work and like a really simple thing, like getting an email at nine o'clock, I only have one phone. I don't have a work phone and a personal phone. If that pops up on my phone and I'm doing something else.

Jess (17:52.331)

Yeah.

No.

Jess (18:07.829)

Hmm.

Mm.

Greg Arthur (18:15.206)

do I respond? Is it rude to respond? Are they just doing it because it works for them to say, I just want to get it all out now and then it's out and I'll worry about everyone replying tomorrow. But if I start replying to them, does that then set a tone? Like it's a minefield unless you just have this kind of period of let's just figure stuff out and get to know each other on a human level.

Jess (18:17.247)

and

Jess (18:28.725)

Yep, it is.

Jess (18:36.63)

Yeah, I mean, ideally, I think internals aren't looking for agencies to be a one and done. And agencies certainly aren't looking to work with their clients and being a one and done. kind of coming in with a, have this project, let's do it because we have this deadline, here's the deliverable. If you follow that approach, then you are missing out on the opportunity of having this, what could end up being a really developed relationship over time.

Greg Arthur (18:44.774)

Mm.

Jess (19:05.655)

And from the internals perspective, I think, you know, the more the agency does get to know the business, how things work, what the internal culture is like and what that means that that actually influences the success of the enablement as well. you know, how do people respond to learning and how do they what's the general culture at the organization around learning? You can understand those things a little bit more even by, spending more time understanding.

And from the internals perspective, I think, you know, the more the agency does get to know the business, how things work, what the internal culture is like and what that means that that actually influences the success of the enablement as well. you know, how do people respond to learning and how do they, what's the general culture at the organization around learning? You can understand those things a little bit more, even by, spending more time understanding.

Greg Arthur (19:30.15)

Mm.

Jess (19:35.264)

the people there and how they work. So yeah, I think it paves the roadmap for projects later down the line as well.

Greg Arthur (19:38.756)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (19:45.478)

Absolutely. I mean one of the things I was just thinking about it one of the things that there's a there's a particular group of clients I work with and over a course of a project we would were chatting fairly regularly and It almost I can't remember why I asked him the first time I think I was just genuinely interested But it almost become like a thing now at the end the last five minutes of the call as we're wrapping up If unless he will literally have to rush off Mike what you guys did this weekend? Jay, I was genuinely interested the first time

Jess (20:12.167)

Mm.

Greg Arthur (20:15.174)

And now it's almost become like a running joke of, we need to make sure we've got time to talk about what we're all doing this weekend. And we usually chat on a Friday. So it's like, I'm doing this. So I'm taking my kids, we're going here and there and there. But it's nice. Like, partly being a little bit nosy, what are you up to? But also I partly just want to know, cause it's nice to know. It's nice to kind of share what's up to you. it's, I don't know, just feels like we, as a group, we get on way better than just going.

Jess (20:18.023)

Thank

Jess (20:41.528)

and

Greg Arthur (20:41.636)

Here's a scope of work, here's when you want it done, you're gonna pay me this much, I'll get on with it. Everyone just sort of goes about their own way. I don't know, some people maybe aren't into that, but I like it. It feels like a nice, kind of more personal approach. It feels like we're all kind of brought into the same way of working, same, yeah, just feels nice.

Jess (20:41.67)

and

Jess (21:03.337)

Definitely.

Greg Arthur (21:05.53)

to talking about that, kind of relationship with within house and an agency. If we take L and D as a whole, regardless where you currently sit, we hear lots of people talking about making an impact. And there's going to be a whole other episode on buzzwords and catchphrases and all these kinds of things. But making an impact seems to be one that hasn't died a death yet and people still say it a lot. And

It's not a bad thing, like you need to make an impact if you're a good product has made some sort of impact. But what I worry about, don't keep me up at night, but I worry about is that people just say this and don't really have any context or weight behind it. So my question is really where have you seen an agency or like an external organization help achieve that goal of impact? Like how have they?

when it's been started from that kind of throwaway comment of we've got to make an impact. Like how have they, where have you seen that kind of work?

Jess (22:05.783)

Mmm.

Yeah, it's interesting. that, that throw away comment of we need to make an impact. to me, what I hear behind that is something's going on at our organization. It is either exciting, but a little bit stressful, or there's a challenge or there's something to overcome, whether it's a change in leadership. maybe it's an acquisition. maybe it's a merger.

Maybe there's a new tool that people need to learn, but I'm hearing is like, we need to dot dot dot. There's almost like a bit of like a desperation behind it. And in some ways, I think that's where if we go back to our previous points about what makes an agent, why people come to agencies. The first thing I mentioned was around that kind of speed and the agility of being able to help with something. So when people are looking for a splash or something with a bit of a quick turnaround, because they have.

Jess (22:32.903)

Greg Arthur (22:40.099)

Mm.

Jess (23:01.004)

to be responsive to something that's going on in the organization. That is when an agency can really help. It's like, let's do this. They also will bring in that disruptive, challenging way of thinking, particularly if people are a little bit kind of blinkered with what's going on. How can we bring this in, bring it in with some positive messaging? How can we get people up and running on this tool that maybe they're gonna be a bit resistant to as quickly as possible, but in a way that is actually

Greg Arthur (23:07.899)

Hmm.

Jess (23:26.05)

as quickly as possible, but in a way that is actually engaging and interesting and potentially a little bit fun, but is going to quote unquote have an impact because there will be measures of success in a way of seeing that this has had a result that you're looking for. So in a way, think when there's a bit of this impact panic going on that needs to happen for whatever reason.

engaging and interesting and potentially a little bit fun, but is going to quote unquote have an impact because there will be measures of success in a way of seeing that this has had a result that you're looking for. So in a way, think, I think when there's a bit of this impact panic going on that needs to happen for whatever reason, the outside support of an agency can be quite helpful.

Greg Arthur (23:37.155)

Mm-mm.

Jess (23:52.412)

the, the outside support of an agency can be quite helpful instead of turning to the people around you going, gosh, what, know, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? yeah, I think that that's one of those times when you get a little bit of disruption, a little bit of creative thinking and a really quick spin on things. That means that you can get something out maybe faster than you could have if you were doing it yourselves internally. yeah.

instead of turning to the people around you going, gosh, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? Yeah. I think that that's one of those times when you get a little bit of disruption, a little bit of creative thinking and a really quick spin on things that means that you can get something out maybe faster than you could have if you were doing it yourselves internally. Yeah.

Greg Arthur (24:02.499)

Hmm.

Greg Arthur (24:17.527)

Yeah.

Cool, I don't disagree with any of that actually. I mean, just to add a bit of contrast to the conversation. So it would benefit me if we only talked about how great agencies are and everyone should use them. And I'll just go, amazing guys, this is the best episode you could ever listen to. And it might be the only one we ever record, we just put this out and everyone goes, But.

Jess (24:29.399)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Greg Arthur (24:47.661)

But that's not reality. So I've seen it. I've seen really good and really bad effects of using an agency for multiple different reasons. Where have you seen, to that point around making an impact, where have you seen the use of an agency hinder that goal of we want to make an impact?

Jess (24:49.976)

Mm.

Jess (25:09.24)

I don't know if it's the use of agency that hinders the goal or if it's the fact that the goal hasn't really been properly scoped and defined internally in the first place. Where I see learning in general, whether it's agency or not, not have the impact as desired is because there hasn't been either conversations with the end user or hasn't been

proper, you're dealing with somebody's personal agenda. So I want to go do this. I want to have this impact. And if we take, let's take something of introducing a new tool. So that could be from someone's personal agenda. If the enablement and the agency comes in and tries to kind of implement something in a very, very top-down way without really understanding what it is that needs to happen internally to make that tool kind of implemented and sticky.

Greg Arthur (25:42.211)

Mm.

Jess (26:08.19)

It's probably not going to be very successful. So the least successful initiatives I see are sort of very top down led and very feeding a personal agenda or a single team's agenda without a lot of thought of how the impact is on the people who are going to be receiving it. But I don't know that it's necessarily about who you've brought in to do it. I think that's potentially flawed from the outset, you know.

Greg Arthur (26:24.227)

Mm-hmm.

Greg Arthur (26:30.775)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (26:35.041)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think, think...

Jess (26:37.686)

But I'm super curious to hear about this experience when you brought an agency in and it just like totally failed. I'm actually very, I wanna hear about it. Share.

But I'm super curious to hear about this experience when you brought an agency in and it just like totally failed. I'm actually very, I want to hear about it. Share.

Greg Arthur (26:42.584)

You

Greg Arthur (26:47.425)

I think it's, I'm not gonna name names. I'm gonna be really, really respectful and not name names. But I think it literally goes back to something you said about scoping. And you'd mentioned about it wasn't scoped correctly internally or well enough. So one of the parts of our product design process is understand. And it's basically starting from the very, very beginning where people talk about what's going on. How do we know it's a problem?

all those kind of questions and it goes really, really deep into it, but you can go really, really deep, really quickly and come straight back out. And then we actually recorded an episode on this earlier today. And one of the things we talked about was how do you know you've done enough to then move on to the next step? So if you're doing that internally before you bring an agency in, so where I've come in kind of midway down a process or kind of much further down the process to do production.

Jess (27:32.45)

you

Greg Arthur (27:46.817)

will still ask like can you show us your like how you know this is a problem like what are you basing all of this on because that not to a massive degree about the design because by that point the kind of trains left the station but but still we need to kind of know the rationale behind why we're all talking about this and why we're all doing it and you can very quickly see as we did in this particular instance where no names will be mentioned where the scoping was

Jess (27:54.988)

Mmm.

Jess (28:07.583)

and

Greg Arthur (28:16.896)

was almost like audience of thousands. And then we kind of said, well, can you, that's great. You know, know who they are. How many did you talk to? And they go, six or something like that where it's like, it's this big, but I spoke to this many people and I know all of them and we all agree and we all go to lunch together. And it's like, so you basically speak to yourself six more times. Like kind of seems a bit pointless. I feel like that's where an agency,

Jess (28:29.443)

Mmm.

Jess (28:34.914)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (28:47.165)

Or actually, even if it's the other way around, it doesn't make much of a difference. It's the other party, think it's their responsibility to say, we need to go back to that and do this again. Because it can be too easy to fall in love with your own ideas and kind of get swept away with everyone going, yeah, this is great. Without kind of going, is this, it might be great, it might be a lot of fun, but is it the right thing to do? And I feel like that's where.

Jess (28:55.747)

Mmm.

Mm.

Jess (29:13.41)

Mmm.

Greg Arthur (29:15.783)

an internal team or an agency, whoever hasn't done the scoping, if they're worried about that kind of thing, needs to bring it back to that. just on that point, do you feel like agencies may be shy away from that? Because with the client spoken, so they've spoken.

Jess (29:35.234)

Yeah, it's a real tough one because we've, also been in a situation where we've been presented with a lot of scoping and then also been told, we're, and we're going to focus on this aspect of it. And you kind of think, but what about all these other things over here? And so we've asked everybody and we've got all this data and we've got all this feedback and we've, actually we're just going to do this. and I think that that's.

Greg Arthur (29:49.085)

Mmm. Yeah.

Jess (30:01.883)

that is a tricky one and then the response you might get from the client is well, internally, you know, there's a strategic decision to move in this direction. So there's a lot of kind of corporate speak, I guess, that you sometimes get back. And I think then you're in a bit of a tricky situation there, right? Because ultimately there is an element of the client getting to lead the project.

that is a tricky one. And then the response you might get from the client as well internally, you know, there's a strategic decision to move in this direction. So there's a lot of kind of corporate speak, I guess, that you sometimes get back. And I think then you're in a bit of a tricky situation there, right? Because ultimately there is an element of the client getting to lead the project.

But I think that if you've done that kind of relationship building from the start and you've got to a place where there's some trust and the trust allows for that kind of healthy challenge and healthy debate, you as someone from the outside can gently push back. And if you've also established that as one of the things that you do as either a person or even as an agency as a value is you've brought us in here to challenge you. You've brought us in here to ask the difficult questions.

Greg Arthur (30:25.119)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (30:53.852)

You're presenting me with a whole bunch of data here. You've chosen to take down this route, but there's a lot of really other interesting things that are getting kind of either pushed to the side or neglected. Can we sit down and decide whether or not we are just leaning into our biases of either what looks fun and what looks interesting, what we would like to do rather than what is going to have to come back to the buzzword, the best impact, but might not be the funnest, most sexiest solution out there.

You're presenting me with a whole bunch of data here. You've chosen to take down this route, but there's a lot of really other interesting things that are getting kind of either pushed to the side or neglected. Can we sit down and decide whether or not we are just leading into our biases of either what looks fun and what looks interesting, what we would like to do rather than what is going to have to come back to the buzzword, the best impact, but might not be the funnest, most sexiest solution out there.

Greg Arthur (30:54.068)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (31:04.447)

Mm.

Greg Arthur (31:18.622)

Yeah.

Jess (31:22.821)

So I think if that relationship has been established that way, you've presented yourself as someone who's gonna push. And then you've got to also, once you've done your pushing and prodding and nudging, and once you get the response that there is a chosen path, sometimes you've got to go along with that, right? And then it's like, how can we build this in a way that achieves that goal but...

Greg Arthur (31:45.535)

Yeah, 100 %

Jess (31:50.931)

potentially even weaves in a little bit more of some of those things that weren't initially there. But if you haven't seen that data from the beginning, it's really, I suppose, you if I had my own agency and I could make the kind of difficult decisions to say, you know, don't want to take on that work, that would be something I'd really kind of think about for, that would keep me up at night in terms of staying true to my values of that process and understanding the importance of it, you know.

Greg Arthur (32:15.87)

Yeah.

Absolutely. I mean, it hasn't kept me up at night yet, but I imagine it will at some point. imagine, and luckily the people we've worked with so far, we've been, we've been quite lucky that they, we even know them or they've done enough due diligence for us to, or we've caught them early enough to be able to say, we need to kind of delve a bit more into this or we've been very lucky so far. So I feel very fortunate for the people we've worked with.

Jess (32:23.61)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (32:44.659)

But I imagine there will be a point where it does keep me up. I'm thinking, should we be doing this? Like we, can snowball really, really quickly out of that gate. If you're not, if you're not, if you're not tying it back to a data source. so the next point we went to talk about was around the friction of, of not even just differing opinions, but when it comes to something more hard like data, but when I guess it really comes to the recommendations or approaches where you've got.

Jess (32:59.964)

Mmm.

Greg Arthur (33:15.407)

internal team and agency They're saying two conflicting things and it sounds like an interview question now like how do you like how do you reconcile them? Like we've we've had it I'm sure you've had it as well where you there's gonna be someone somewhere that says I've been here 20 years I know what they want or I've been their manager for this long or or I'm the expert in the company and I know this And it's like you're still just one person though. I kind of don't be the one to say it but

Jess (33:34.974)

Mm.

Jess (33:39.145)

I know.

Jess (33:43.773)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Greg Arthur (33:45.535)

There's not a thousand of you, there's one of you.

Jess (33:46.473)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we, if we take that as one of like the difficult internal personas, I wonder whether or not internals also have a, kind of difficult agency persona. And I wonder if that looks a little bit like, and you mentioned this earlier, it like being in love with our own ideas. We do, I'll call myself out on this, have a tendency to love our ideas.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we, if we take that as one of like the difficult internal personas, I wonder whether or not internals also have a, the kind of difficult agency persona. And I wonder if that looks a little bit like, and you mentioned this earlier, was like being in love with our own ideas. We do, I'll call myself out on this, have a tendency to love our ideas.

Greg Arthur (34:09.823)

Mm.

Jess (34:15.41)

and to sometimes get a little bit attached to them, right? And one of the things I learned really, maybe not the hard way, but one of the difficult things I learned at being at an agency was that I would often, you we'd go in, we usually presented three sets of ideas and I would have spent a lot of time on them. We absolutely loved them. And the client, it wasn't what they wanted.

Greg Arthur (34:16.127)

You

Greg Arthur (34:19.924)

Yeah.

Jess (34:42.383)

or it wasn't what they think they would have, whatever, whatever the case may be. But in my mind, I'm thinking, yeah, but this is actually really going to be the thing. Like this is it, you know, how much am I falling in love with my own idea and how much have I got distracted by how fun and creative that would be to design versus.

Greg Arthur (34:51.333)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (34:56.848)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (35:02.473)

Is that really meeting the need? And of course I can make that connection, but if I kind of sat alone in a room and really like checked myself, maybe I've gotten a little too carried away with what would be really fun and awesome to build. and I think that's a little bit of like a creative, that's one of the creative personas. and sometimes, you know, I, clients come to me and say, look, you know, we want it, we want to program management, a project management course. We want it to run on these, you know, sets of days, this kind of format.

Is that really meeting the need? And of course I can make that connection. But if I kind of sat alone in a room and really like checked myself, maybe I've gotten a little too carried away with what would be really fun and awesome to build. And I think that's a little bit of like a creative, that's one of the creative personas. And sometimes, know, clients come to me and say, look, you know, we want it, we want to program management, a project management course. We want it to run on these, you know, sets of days, this kind of format.

Greg Arthur (35:13.02)

Mm.

Jess (35:30.678)

And I'm like, yeah, but we could do this and we could do that. We could add this element. And they're like, no, no, this is what we want. And I guess in professional life, there's this aspect of when, I always have this in my head, when do I challenge? When do I flex? When am I making a point that is based on my own biases and what I like? And when am I making a point that is really,

And I'm like, yeah, but we could do this and we could do that. We could add this element. And they're like, no, no, this is what we want. And I guess in professional life, there's this aspect of when I always have this in my head, when do I challenge? When do I flex? When am I making a point that is based on my own biases and what I like? And when am I making a point that is really

Greg Arthur (35:36.507)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (35:45.98)

Mm-hmm.

Greg Arthur (35:54.492)

Mm.

Jess (35:57.446)

really valid and actually does need a little bit of like extra pressure and stickiness because of kind of the principles of learning or whatever it is or what I've really seen I think the client might be missing in the problem space for example. So I think those questions are going around in my head all the time you know and I'm constantly sort of checking myself and making sure that if I am pushing back or I am dealing with that internal friction

Greg Arthur (36:09.265)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (36:25.365)

When, when is the time to let it go? And why am I pushing? You know, am I really pushing for the right reasons? And I think what I liked about some of the clients that I worked with for a longer time at the, when I was at the agency was that I could do my pushing and they knew that I would, but if there was a line or if there was something that I didn't know about all the complexities of their very complex organization.

When, when is the time to let it go and why am I pushing, you know, am I really pushing for the right reasons? and I think what, what I liked about some of the clients that I worked with for, for a longer time, at the, when I was at the agency was that I could do my pushing and they knew that I would, but if there was a line or if there was something that I didn't know about all the complexities of their very complex organization that I had to just go, okay.

Greg Arthur (36:32.475)

Yeah.

Jess (36:50.511)

that I had to just go, okay, cool. This is the budget. This is the timeframe. This is the whatever it is, whatever the line is, that it's not personal. It's not that they didn't think my idea was going to be super fun. But there's a logistical aspect of things or whatever it is that I need to, that I also need to adhere to that I have to use that as a constraint in what I'm doing. So it's, I think there's a lot of backwards and forwards that kind of goes on both in my head, but also a bit with

cool, this is the budget, this is the time frame, is the whatever it is, whatever the line is. That it's not personal, it's not that they didn't think my idea was gonna be super fun. But there's a logistical aspect of things or whatever it is that I need to, that I also need to adhere to that I have to use that as a constraint in what I'm doing. So it's, I think there's a lot of backwards and forwards that kind of goes on both in my head, but also a bit with the people that I work with as well.

Greg Arthur (37:12.497)

Yeah.

Jess (37:19.586)

with the people that I work with as well. And you gotta know when to push and when to back down, you know? And if you're working with people that you've got good relationships with, that works really well because that healthy challenge is great. And yeah, but then there's a time when it's like, no, we're going down this direction. And then I think there's that thing of kind of like, you know, commit and forget that kind of, okay, we're doing this. Okay, great. Now I'm gonna throw myself wholeheartedly into this.

And you got to know when to push and when to back down, you know? And if you're working with people that you've got good relationships with, that works really well because that healthy challenge is great. And yeah, but then there's a time when it's like, no, we're going down this direction. And then I think there's that thing of kind of like, you know, commit and forget that kind of, okay, we're doing this. Okay, great. Now I'm going to throw myself wholeheartedly into this and get really excited about this and make this the best thing possible.

Greg Arthur (37:26.652)

Yeah.

Jess (37:46.484)

and get really excited about this and make this the best thing possible. So yeah.

Greg Arthur (37:51.419)

Yes, yeah. And I think those are the points where, so I've had it where similar to you, I didn't call myself out early enough and I took a, this is when I was internal, I took a series of designs to a group of people in like three or four different countries and I was thinking, they are, I'm going to walk out of every single one of these meetings being carried like I've just won.

Jess (37:51.434)

So yeah.

Jess (38:20.688)

The king. The king of learning.

The king! The king of learning!

Greg Arthur (38:21.23)

the world. I'm the king of the whole world now. Like why not? Because this is the best thing anyone, no one's done this before. It's just this guy. I'm the best. And then I walked out of every single meeting. They all had different opinions on it, but unanimously they hated it. And it was crushing. then, but then like took all of their, and I did say to them, be as honest as possible, which

Jess (38:37.721)

and

you

Jess (38:43.029)

Mm.

and

Jess (38:51.45)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (38:51.576)

which I was glad like, cause I had to know. But I took it away, redid some bits and pieces based on what they'd said. And some of it was a bit like, I think that was a personal opinion rather than rather than, or like a personal preference rather than it's affecting the product ultimately. So it's kind of knowing when to take the feedback and when to kind of say, I'll park it, see if it still fits once I've done some of the more pressing areas. Gave it back to them.

Jess (38:54.288)

You got it.

Jess (39:04.698)

Mm-hmm.

Greg Arthur (39:20.3)

ended up being one the most successful things within that time period. Like it took off really, really quickly. But that was only because they'd said to me, this is what we need to have done. These are the things that we don't like. These are the things that you haven't spotted. So now working in agency, yeah, running my own agency, it's so much easier to be able to say, you tell us, like, we'll go based on whatever we've got to so far. But ultimately, it's not.

Jess (39:25.466)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (39:50.298)

It's not us and the stakeholders trying to decide. We almost try and explain to them, when we say you tell us, we're talking about their audience. We're not talking about our stakeholders or the people that are paying us. We're trying to say to them, obviously we like it, which is why we're presenting it to you. We really hope you like it because you've commissioned us to do the work. But at the end of the day, we don't really matter. Like if it's your audience that need to really buy into this.

Jess (39:57.794)

Mmm.

Jess (40:13.349)

and

Greg Arthur (40:16.568)

So we can sit and argue about should the button be here? Should it be this kind of tone of voice? Should we have it in this format? I mean, yeah. But ultimately who cares? Like if you're all doing so and go, I can't get to it, it takes too long. I don't understand it. It doesn't really grab me. Like those are the things that really matter. So the person's screen, I know what they want. It's like, okay, have you asked every single one of them? Probably not. So those are the things that kind of

Jess (40:28.814)

Yeah.

Jess (40:42.769)

Mm.

Greg Arthur (40:47.234)

I yeah, haven't kept me up at night yet, but I imagine they will at some point. We'll see.

Jess (40:54.888)

Yeah. mean, with, on a plug, with a plug for agencies as this being the podcast of plugging agencies, even though it's not, I think what, you know, there's also like custom built versus off the shelf stuff. And I think that the beauty of, of, of, of doing this process with an agency where you're genuinely.

Yeah, I mean, with a plug for agencies, this being the podcast of plugging agencies, even though it's not, think what, you know, there's also like custom built versus off the shelf stuff. And I think that the beauty of doing this process with an agency where you're genuinely

Greg Arthur (41:00.94)

Yeah.

Jess (41:17.092)

allowing them to assist you in figuring out what the problem actually is, who and what the end users actually need, rather than I'm going to buy this off the shelf product and put it in and then wonder why people aren't using it. There is the extra time that it takes to build those things and the extra time it takes to have those conversations and to speak, but the...

allowing them to assist you in figuring out what the problem actually is, who and what the, what the end users actually need rather than I'm going to buy this off the shelf product and put it in and then wonder why people aren't using it. that, that there is the extra time that it takes to build those things and the extra time it takes to have those conversations and to speak. But the, the.

Greg Arthur (41:38.426)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (41:42.451)

ultimate impact, you back to the impact thing, is going to be much greater. It's like what you put into it is sort of what you get out of it. So I genuinely think that sort of buying off the shelf learning products is something that isn't always going to be the right thing for organizations. It really depends on what problem they're trying to solve. But that's...

ultimate impact, if you back to the impact thing, is going to be much greater. It's like what you put into it is sort of what you get out of it. So I genuinely think that sort of buying off the shelf learning products is something that isn't always going to be the right thing for organizations. It really depends on what problem they're trying to solve. But that's...

Greg Arthur (42:05.688)

Mm.

Jess (42:07.741)

process that you're talking about of really trying to figure out getting to the core of what people need is going to circle back to that whole gimmicky impact aspect. But that's how you get the big bang.

Greg Arthur (42:20.506)

100 % 100 % and talking about big banks and if people I'm gonna say struggle, maybe they don't struggle if they're just Currently in some sort of engagement with an agency or they're in an agency and they're dealing with some clients What would be the one bit of advice you would give to? Someone in-house working with agency someone in an agency working with someone in-house What kind of advice would you or the one bit of advice for either one and say?

from your experience, this is the best thing you could impart upon them in any aspect of their dealings with each other.

Jess (42:59.441)

Yeah, I think if they're struggling, if things aren't working, and that happens, that can happen at any point down the line of a project, right? I think if you can pause for a moment and ideally sit down together in person, if you can, but certainly synchronously, so live, ideally in person.

Yeah, think if they're struggling, if things aren't working, and that happens, that can happen at any point down the line of a project, right? I think if you can pause for a moment and ideally sit down together in person, if you can, but certainly synchronously, so live, ideally in person.

and go back to what you were trying to set out to achieve from the start. Now things may have shifted and things may have changed and they may have moved on and evolved and that's fine, but there still will be an ultimate goal that you are trying to achieve together. And there just may have been a lot of noise that has come in around that. But going back to that kind of communication side of things, like what's going on with you guys over there? You may not know that they...

Greg Arthur (43:39.096)

Mm, yeah.

Jess (43:51.205)

In the background at their organization, there's been a bunch of layoffs or restructuring or something that's going on that's really causing them a lot of stress that they haven't had a chance to talk about because you meet for a weekly sync and it's only half an hour and you're asking each other about your weekends. don't have time to talk about this other thing that's going on. You know what I mean? So there's so much going on that can you just put a pause for a moment and say, okay, let's call a spade a spade. This isn't working right now. What's going on? We both want to achieve the same thing.

in the background at their organization, there's been a bunch of layoffs or restructuring or something that's going on that's really causing them a lot of stress that they haven't had a chance to talk about because you meet for a weekly sync and it's only half an hour and you're asking each other about your weekends. don't have time to talk about this other thing that's going on. You know what I mean? So there's so much going on that can you just put a pause for a moment and say, okay, let's call a spade a spade. This isn't working right now. What's going on? We both want to achieve the same thing.

Greg Arthur (44:07.162)

You

That's me.

Jess (44:20.323)

what let's let's kind of just you know there's like that that you know radical candor of let's let's really speak honestly with each other about what's going on here so that we can get back on track because i think if we sort of shy away and and and don't address it it becomes an elephant in the room it's it's gonna like just be a weight on the whole process you know and you can't collaborate with people that that you're not communicating well with it just won't work

Greg Arthur (44:33.85)

Absolutely.

Greg Arthur (44:44.023)

100 %

Greg Arthur (44:48.695)

100 % and for me it goes back to something you said right at the beginning around spending that time upfront getting to know each other, how you work and one the things we do, it's one of the designs I work with, we were talking about branding projects. So we were talking about this kind of really short list of questions we would send somebody before we met with them. So they've had a chance to think about it. We've had a chance to kind of read through their answers and we're not starting from like a cold position of

what we're going to be doing. And one of the things that she'd suggested was we need to ask them what they don't like equally as much as what they do like. So when we're talking about specific logos or branding or tone of voice, as many questions as we ask those very specifically about what you like, ask the exact same questions and what don't you like and give us an example of them and why you don't like them, why you do like them, blah, blah, blah. And I was thinking, this is so simple, but I'd never thought of it that way until she'd said it to me.

Jess (45:42.141)

Greg Arthur (45:49.531)

and it's almost a standard now of what we do. So especially when we're talking about that relationship building stuff at the start, if we get to that point where, like you say, a restructure is happening, nine times out of 10, we probably know it's something that isn't to do with the project and it's something else going on because we've spent that time building that relationship or asking those kind of questions. So if it is something like that, either they...

don't want to talk to us about it they can just say there's some stuff going on we go it's no problem we don't need to know it's not it's not for them to have to tell us if they don't want to but at least you know it's not to do with the work and if it is to do with the work we've already had that discussion up front say well we did speak about this like you really liked this direction what's changed or you know we can we can kind of pinpoint where to focus our attention now which helps us just as much as it helps them

Jess (46:27.434)

Okay.

Thank you.

Greg Arthur (46:44.435)

And having worked both sides for a number of years, been, it feels like it's been invaluable experience that you wouldn't have got from maybe a podcast or like, or from, or even just from reading someone's book about it. I think you need to literally live it. And it sounds really frustrating because that takes a longer, lot longer than listening to a really short podcast. But I think just having those questions and like you were saying, trying to

Jess (46:57.202)

Yeah.

Jess (47:02.546)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (47:14.103)

trying to pause and not go the gut reaction is probably some really lovely advice. Last question before we go as well. This is your other million dollar question. This is your five million dollar question. We're gonna out the stakes a little bit and I've got five million dollars in that little cabinet behind me so if you get it right, this is all yours.

Jess (47:23.347)

Mmm.

Jess (47:33.757)

Sweet.

sweet.

Fabulous.

Greg Arthur (47:41.559)

Please don't come rob my house anyone. I don't have $5 million. So last question, what does the future of agencies and internal teams working together look like? If we maybe go in the next couple of years and then maybe jump ahead like 10 years.

Jess (47:51.123)

you

Jess (47:59.697)

Mmm, yum.

Greg Arthur (48:00.095)

I don't know what the answer is by the way. I have thought about this when I wrote this question out and I was like, I don't know.

Jess (48:08.507)

Yeah, I, I don't know what I'm what I'm learning. Now is that there's also another set of people that we haven't had in this conversation, contractors. And they are L and D contractors, but they're working as sort of sole agents, right. And

Greg Arthur (48:22.955)

Mm-hmm.

Jess (48:31.313)

they're full-time self-employed. So that's another pool. So I bring that up just because I think, I wonder if there's like a world in which the agencies and the contractors kind of come together and there is more of a network between them that allows there to be a

bit more stability for agencies and a bit more stability for the contractors. Because I think that there's this middle ground between the really lean, really small agency and the big corporate internal. like, there's a middle space there that isn't really being occupied yet. And that space, think, potentially is the future.

Greg Arthur (49:13.206)

Hmm.

Jess (49:23.441)

Because the corporates at the end, that's always going to be there. And there's hopefully always going to be a person at least, you know, maybe one, maybe two, or maybe a bigger learning team that need help and support. So I think that that relationship of like, how can we as the non-internals support those internals will continue. But I think that they're, what I would love to see is a bit more kind of stability within the agency world.

so that there could be a bit more support. And so maybe places didn't have to work in such a lean way. The other thing I see is a real, and I think you guys are doing this at Two Circles anyway, but a real marriage between the visual and the learning. And I see a lot of learning designer jobs now requiring a real like heavy kind of graphic brand element. And as somebody who did not,

Greg Arthur (49:51.636)

Hmm.

Greg Arthur (50:08.251)

Mmm. Yeah.

Jess (50:19.85)

grow up learning, learning that way. I think it's a real big expectation to ask a learning, someone who has real genuine learning expertise to also be a branding expert and vice versa. Someone who's a graphic designer or an animator to also have learning understanding and how to kind of structure any learning. So I see there being a real synergy between sort of the visual aspect of things, whether it's like I said, animators, graphic designers and the learning side.

grow up learning, learning that way. I think it's a real big expectation to ask a learning, someone who has real genuine learning expertise to also be a branding expert and vice versa. Someone who's a graphic designer or an animator to also have learning understanding and how to kind of structure knee learning. So I see there being a real synergy between sort of the visual aspect of things, whether it's like I said, animators, graphic designers and the learning side.

and bringing that together a lot more so that people don't have to wear both hats. Like I think that expectation is maybe a little unrealistic. And how do we do that? So how do graphic designers start to learn how to speak with, well with learning designers and vice versa, you know? There are times when I have these amazing creative ideas and then I go to a designer and they're like, no, we can't do that. And I'm like, really? That would take like, that would take two weeks to make. And I'm like, right, I need it tomorrow, you know.

and bringing that together a lot more so that people don't have to wear both hats. Like I think that expectation is maybe a little unrealistic. And how do we do that? So how do graphic designers start to learn how to speak with, well with learning designers and vice versa? know, there are times when I have these amazing creative ideas and then I go to a designer and they're like, no, we can't do that. And I'm like, really? No, would take like, that would take two weeks to make. And I'm like, right, I need it tomorrow, you know.

Greg Arthur (50:49.332)

Mm.

Greg Arthur (50:54.686)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (51:05.396)

Hmm.

Jess (51:16.947)

things like that. I think I see a space in which there's this almost like this network of people, but there's a lot more sort of support and sharing of skills and coming together to work on things for the internals. Yeah, very wooly answer, but.

Greg Arthur (51:17.619)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (51:33.58)

Yeah, 100%. And I think, no, no, not at all. No, I think he nailed it. think for me, so from my experience, when we were in our internal team, we had very defined roles, but we worked really closely, there was six of us. So we worked really closely together because there were so few of us. And we knew who our dev was, we knew who our designers were, we knew who the learning person was. So.

We would try not to spread ourselves too thin as in too many projects, but we knew if something was coming in and it's just a visual job, that's a graphic designer, but you don't need a dev to go to that conversation. Whereas we got to a point where we had a head count for somebody. So I said, how would you phrase like a multi-me or like a multi-disciplined person? How would you phrase that for the job market? So I was trying to some of our creative team.

They were like, that role doesn't exist. Like you might find someone that can, that is a dev that has a really good eye for design, but chances are they're to be really busy doing dev and they won't get around to doing the design or vice versa. Or somebody that is an animator that could probably do some graphic design, but it won't be as good as your graphic designer. And then it was almost like you can have this, but you're going to trade off this. So then everything starts to fall down.

Jess (52:30.305)

Come on.

Mm.

Jess (52:36.353)

Mmm.

Jess (52:47.967)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (52:56.728)

And then when I kind of wrote this kind of fictitious job spec and gave it to them, it was basically it's all of you, but in one person, they were just like that person doesn't exist. They're like that's either two very distinct jobs or even potentially four different jobs. And I was like, let's just try. Let's just see what happens. Very stubborn. Didn't take no for an answer. We didn't find anyone because they don't exist or they don't exist at the level you'd want them to exist at.

Jess (53:04.534)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (53:26.156)

And so I think it's trying to make sure that it's okay to use an agency and use an internal team together when you are complementing those skills. Because yeah, it's but also it's having the agency side of a learning person and the creative studio stuff is for us, it works really well. Like we feel like we can do a proper end to end service. We know what we're talking about.

Jess (53:38.261)

Yeah.

Greg Arthur (53:54.868)

but also for internal teams, they're bringing a lot of the context and the guidance about their organization that we wouldn't get. So it needs to be an equal partnership for us, but yeah, I still don't know what the future of this will be. I don't even really know, I don't see consistency now, so I'm not sure how it will be consistent in two years, 10 years. Maybe it will stay the same, I don't know.

Jess (54:10.691)

Thank

Jess (54:15.138)

Mm.

Jess (54:22.231)

Yeah, maybe. mean, who knows, especially with things like AI coming into, you know, there's a lot of other factors as well. So I think it'll be, it's an interesting space to kind of watch this space, you know, and see what happens.

Greg Arthur (54:28.137)

man.

Greg Arthur (54:37.756)

Yes, absolutely. Well, maybe we'll chat again in two years and again in 10 years and we'll listen back to this and see if we were right or wrong or maybe AI will do it for us. I'll put it in my diary. Cool. Well, thank you so much for being a guest today and where can people find you? Where do you want them to find you? Have you got anything to plug? Anything you want to shout about?

Jess (54:48.611)

my gosh, that would be so fun. Yeah.

gosh, that would be so fun. Yeah.

Jess (55:06.275)

nothing specifically to plug. would say you can find me on LinkedIn. if you are interested in multiverse, then definitely find me. There's lots of interesting things going on there. I am not going to plug specifically today, but, it's a super interesting organization and it really is, sort of at the forefront of the cutting edge of what's going on in terms of, of AI and learning and data. yeah.

please do have a look at the website and see what we do, because it's very applicable in lots of different places. But if you want to find me and you ever want to chat, I love geeking out about learning. So send me an article, engage with me on LinkedIn, and I'll respond. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Greg Arthur (55:53.332)

Cool, no, I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for your time and we're out of time. I know you have to roll. So thank you again and I'll speak to you very soon and thanks again. Lovely episode. Cheers.

Jess (56:04.208)

Cheers.

Jess (56:13.742)

Awesome. Great.

Jess (56:22.126)

It isn't showing me. My percentage has disappeared. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Okay.

Jess (56:43.528)

I can see it now. 69, 59, yeah.

Jess (56:50.277)

Perfect.

Jess (57:06.48)

Cool. All right, I've got to jump because I had a meeting at two, but I will let's speak again soon. And yeah, let me know how it sounds and how it comes across. And yeah, just let me know. Cool.

Great. It was a pleasure. Thank you. See you later, Greg. Bye.

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