Pdfl_ep16_transcript
Greg Arthur (00:01.784)
Cool. Welcome to the Product Design for Learning podcast. This week we have two guests on. Would you guys like to introduce yourselves and tell us why you're here? And before I forget, because I forget all the time, our topic this week, it will say on Spotify as well, is L &D conferences. So again, slightly off process, but we have two lovely guests with us and I will let them introduce themselves and I'll shut up for a second. Over to you guys.
Who are you and why are you here?
Anamaria (00:35.31)
Okay. can go. Yes, I can go first. was like, ice Q eyes ice Qs. Yeah. my name is Anna Maria. I am based out of Amsterdam and I am currently working for myself. I'm a learning and community consultant and team up with different organizations, all sides, backgrounds, on topics, challenges related to community building, social learning or learning experience design and facilitation.
Dinye (00:35.611)
Go ahead, I don't worry.
Greg Arthur (00:36.935)
You
Anamaria (01:04.954)
Also, I started the community practice for learning and development professionals, which is where I met Dini and it's also kind of intertwined with our topic today, that of a conference for L &Ds. This community is called L &D Shakers, an online, offline global community for L &D professionals as well. yeah, that's where I Dini a few years back, it seems like yesterday. So Dini, take it away.
Dinye (01:32.987)
Thank you. Yes. Hi everyone. My name is Dini and I've been in L &D for seven years and I was calculating as I was preparing for our conversation today. We've actually met five years ago. don't know Maria. So because that was also the my switch from corporate L &D to startup L &D. So that's what I've been doing. I've been building and
establishing L &D departments in startups and scale-ups. So here are startups, 100 people, so not like garage-sized startup. And it's been fun. I need to wear a lot of hats, and that's part of the charm, very entrepreneurial, very creative, but also sometimes very lonely. That's why I joined the L &D community that Ana Maria built. And yeah.
I'm here today because I published an article about LND conferences. A lot of emotions before I hit that publish, but it started a lot of conversation around the current state and what LND professionals are looking for when it comes to these conferences. So yeah, and somehow it leads to this conversation today.
Greg Arthur (02:52.074)
Amazing, amazing. Thank you both. And I will add to the congratulations on LND Shakers. That's how I actually found both of you guys. yeah, it's brilliant. So everyone join it. It's really good. That's my little advert for it. Cool, as we said, we're going to talk about LND conferences today. And just in case anyone starts to jump on us, this is not a jumping out or attacking anyone. We're just talking about it.
We're going to have some discussion. We might disagree. And we did ask some other people, which I'm not going to name. We asked some other people to come on and they didn't respond. So, you know, we go with who said yes and who wants to talk about it. So that is that. That's my little disclaimer. We're not attacking anyone. There's no malice. Just to set the tone. But the first thing we wanted to ask you guys was,
how you first engaged with L &D conferences. So right back when, and we were just saying before we started recording, I think my first one was LearnTech, I think, but I can't quite remember, but I think it was LearnTech. Danny, what was your first learning conference you went to? What did you take from it? Was there any benefits?
Dinye (04:11.129)
Yes. So I have attended a couple of gatherings among L &D professionals, but I think the first big real one that's like, you know, in a proper venue with hotels and speakers and lineups and thousands of participants was Online Educar Berlin. So I'm based in Berlin and I was like, you know, it's home turf. I don't need to stay in a hotel. And I went there.
Greg Arthur (04:25.262)
Hmm.
Greg Arthur (04:36.334)
Hmm.
Dinye (04:40.571)
And I learned about it through a friend who then also made it possible that I attend the conference. I was invited as speaker, but you still need to pay as a speaker. because, that's a point that we can discuss later. But thankfully, she understood my situation. I was in startup, you know, there's no budget. And she was like, you know what, you can come for free.
And that was great. So it was, it was a great first experience. I, because I got to experience it in three different ways as a normal audience, as a speaker, but also because my friend is part of the committee. I also got the behind the scenes stage and got into conversations that I might not get into if I'm a normal participant. And yeah, if the question is, would I recommend it?
Greg Arthur (05:28.152)
Nice.
Dinye (05:38.107)
to other L &D professionals, then depends on what you were looking for. At that time, I knew what I signed up for. I personally don't really like big gatherings, so I don't have lot of expectations because I know myself that I'm not going to be attending like big parties or any of this. And that was great, but I naturally always come with a critical mind to any things that I attend.
Greg Arthur (06:05.838)
Mm.
Dinye (06:07.611)
And that was also kind of like my first like glove hate story with conference. It's like, yeah, I truly enjoy it and this and this and I got networked. But are there points where I'm like, ugh, why? And I wish there were more. And that was that, my first touch with the LND conference.
Greg Arthur (06:17.571)
Yeah.
Greg Arthur (06:27.404)
Yeah.
Greg Arthur (06:32.59)
Thank you. There's a couple things you mentioned I want to come back to in a second. But Anna-Marie, same questions for you. What was your, if you can remember your first conference and did you take anything away from it?
Anamaria (06:42.628)
I actually had to think about that because I don't really kind of remember for sure, for sure, for sure. I'm going to go with OEB as well. So the same conference that Dini mentioned. I've attended, I come from HR, my background is human resources. And so I used to attend conferences on HR and people, people and culture, et cetera. I want to say that there was a difference, but there wasn't. So it's just the topics are different, nothing else was different. We can talk though about later on if it's interesting about.
Greg Arthur (07:09.197)
Yeah.
Anamaria (07:11.566)
design conferences that have a totally different vibe than our conferences in our field, which was also eye-opening for me. But yes, it was, I think, maybe two years, two years and a half, probably, where I attended OAB as a participant and also as a speaker. I paid to speak as well. I was there. It was interesting. It was great to see so many peers at the same, in the same spot.
Greg Arthur (07:37.58)
Mm-hmm.
Anamaria (07:37.796)
For me, I spoke in, I think it was called a panel, like a speaking panel, but it was called a panel, but it was not a panel format like you would imagine it with Q &A. And so we all had, I think 20 minutes, we were three speakers, we had 20 minutes to kind of share something, bring a case, like present our stuff. And then we had some questions from the audience, a few.
in with the moderator. So I really enjoyed the process of preparing that, like the format, preparing that they paired us based on it. We talked about social learning and community practice. And so I was paired with two other practitioners and it was really fun to see the type of work that they were doing and how we overlapped and how we kind of prepare something of value for the audience. But yeah, generally just very, very big in a hotel. Like the vibe was, it's not the coziest one. You kind of move around. And so I was lucky that I knew some people there and that made it
much easier but I actually remember thinking if I would have been here alone you have to be a certain type of person to go and because there there there's a lot of people that go with their teams etc so you could really look around and see that they're like in small packs so if you're alone it really takes a lot of a type of personality to go there and kind of
Greg Arthur (08:35.022)
Hmm.
Greg Arthur (08:42.924)
Yeah.
Anamaria (08:52.812)
attach yourself to a table and be like, hi, I know you guys are talking here and it seems like all getting along and you kind of know each other, but I'm like, yeah, what's up? Can I have a coffee with you? and I'm an I am an extrovert. So that was a reflection that I remember living with. Like, it's very hard to mingle because there was not really a design for that. Like there was it was a design as such. So it was all left to us as participants. Yeah.
Greg Arthur (08:56.086)
Yeah.
Greg Arthur (09:02.23)
Yeah, yeah.
Greg Arthur (09:10.712)
Yes.
Greg Arthur (09:21.538)
I interestingly saw, I think it was on LinkedIn, was like a little clip of somebody else's podcast and they were talking about, not about learning conferences at all, but just about events. And they'd said, they were used to be quite afraid of going in on their own and just speaking to strangers. And they'd said, they almost, they did say, it's not as easy as it sounds, but they said, then one day I just thought, you know what? Let's just try and talk to as many people as possible. The worst thing they can say is, I don't want to talk to you right now.
then you just find someone else. And I was thinking, yes, that is way harder than it sounds. You can't just walk into a room and be like, I'm to go and talk to 600 people. I always find it a bit odd. Like you say, if you go into a learning conference, I've done both where I've gone with group of people and gone on my own. But I think around how it's designed. So you both mentioned about kind of large groups of people being in hotel, and it's a bit, it's not the most.
enjoyable or maybe like the most, what's the word I'm looking for, like the most nurturing environment for people to learn and to network and to kind of get together. So if we were talking about a kind of a dictionary definition of L &D conferences in the whole, how would you guys describe that? If someone had said I've never been to one, what is this thing?
Anamaria (10:46.606)
what is it like right now or how we would love it to be. Because that's a difference.
Greg Arthur (10:51.096)
Let's go with what it's like right now.
Anamaria (10:57.562)
definition. I don't know. I might describe it as an online or offline, sometimes both parallel tracks I think in the latest years, a gathering of L &D professionals, practitioners, researchers coming together and around a pretty fine agenda or lineup.
Greg Arthur (11:10.893)
Mm.
Anamaria (11:24.344)
with pre-selected speakers that bring together topics related to the field. Usually gathers a big crowd and you're basically sitting looking at the speaker lineup for a day, sometimes several days in a row, mixing mingling with people and feel like your head's exploding by the time it's done and you have to head home and back home.
That's at least how I always felt like, no, this was tough. I feel like I need a week to kind of digest and go back to my notes and see what am I doing with everything that I'm taking away from that. Dini, how about you?
Greg Arthur (11:55.598)
I think it's...
Yes.
Greg Arthur (12:04.718)
Yes, yeah. Dinny, I got the same question, but I wanted to touch on your article that you shared, because if you're comfortable, put the link in the comments afterwards. But I really resonated with almost every single point you said where I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm glad someone's saying this. There's just lots of nodding and going, mm-hmm, yeah. But like, how does that play into...
I guess your definition of a learning conference as in today.
Dinye (12:37.797)
Yeah. as I've said, like I've also attended conferences in my previous life. was in innovation management. So, a lot of this, like startup conferences, tech conferences. So I know what I kind of expected or what I, I, what I should and could expect from this conferences. but I think I had a little bit more expectation because it was a learning and development conference. So.
Greg Arthur (13:05.975)
Hmm.
Dinye (13:07.607)
You know, like we always say it as a profession, learning is more than just an event. It's not a one-time thing. And to me, the conferences that we have today feels exactly like that. Like it's a one-time thing and it's doing everything that we as a profession have been saying is wrong, that doesn't contribute to learning. And to me, my intention when I go to conference is to learn.
Greg Arthur (13:22.179)
Mm-hmm.
Greg Arthur (13:32.492)
Mm.
Dinye (13:37.189)
to burst my bubble, to hear something new. And if I have to put a definition of what LND conference looks like now, then it's the opposite of what I want that definition to be. And that's kind of, and I talk to people, I talk to my friends, I talk to my colleagues who have also attended similar conferences, and they all kind of say the same thing.
Greg Arthur (13:49.827)
Yes.
Dinye (14:04.779)
The one who come from corporate, they don't really criticize it because for them it's already a highlight to set aside a block of time and learn something new. Whereas for my contacts where my business contacts change every other day, there's a pivot and reorganization or whatever and on. And to me, change is something that's constant. I was always on the look for like anything new. So when I sit to conference and it's nothing new.
Greg Arthur (14:07.694)
Mm.
Dinye (14:34.651)
then I'm like, why am I here? So all this different and at the same time, you know, I know the organizing committees, I respect them. These are the thought leaders, the one who's been doing this work day in and day out. Some of them have been doing it for 30 years. I don't know if I have the patient and the nurse and that persistence to do a conference for 30 years.
Greg Arthur (14:35.0)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Greg Arthur (14:54.178)
Mm.
Dinye (15:02.651)
and I know what goes behind the scenes. So I respect all of that. But I think like to me, the reason why I wrote that article and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to put it out there in the most respectful way possible. And I did tag like the ones who are creating this because to me, it's like it's all our shared responsibility. I know that it's not just me who feel this thing.
Greg Arthur (15:16.28)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (15:22.787)
Yeah.
Dinye (15:32.175)
then let's surface it. Let's turn it into a conversation. However it's going to land and whatever they're going to do with this input, they can say, you know what, whatever, you've been in this space for what, seven years? I've been here 30 years. So maybe my statements or my questions were not valid or they're just like, you don't know the reality. But I just think it was.
Greg Arthur (15:43.522)
Mm.
Dinye (16:01.261)
I don't like it when people complain and don't tell me what I should improve. So I'll walk the talk and I click publish.
Greg Arthur (16:12.098)
I'm glad you did, I'm glad you did. And it was one that I was chatting to someone earlier this morning actually about something completely different. And I can't remember, there is a very famous philosopher, I'm gonna kick myself afterwards when I Google it. But whoever said madness is doing something repeatedly and expecting a different result, and someone's gonna tell me in a second, I'll be like, yeah, that guy. But I feel like that's what conferences are at the moment, is in they literally run the same.
Anamaria (16:25.05)
You
Greg Arthur (16:42.296)
format the same things, largely the same speakers, or at least the topics stay the same, but the speakers change. And it kind of feels a bit like, so I have this kind of love-hate relationship with LinkedIn for the same reason, in that we have this democracy of vocalization, is that anyone can say anything they want. And if it builds a little bit of traction, someone runs with it. And I feel like conferences are the same thing, where we...
as an industry, maybe six months ago, whatever it was, everyone seemed to be talking about AI. then, but then all of sudden, everyone was an expert on it. And everyone was, and I was like, I don't think all of you are. I think maybe some of you have never used it. I'm certainly not an expert. And it felt a bit like you look at most of the conferences and someone had also said to me, a big learning conference, which I won't mention the name, and said, I only go like every three or four years now because that's...
that feels like the pace had changed for that conference. And we kind of got into it a little bit and I was like, you know what, maybe you're wrong. Maybe people are changing. Maybe like, as you were saying, Dinny, people are walking the talk and they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing. Sorry, they're not doing things that they say that we're doing in conferences. But then I looked at the topics. Storytelling was always up there. Leadership, for some reason, was always there.
AI started to come in and then it was almost like the same keynote speakers just at a different conference just saying the same sort of things these same very inspirational talks but with no real substance and then just a sea of people watching them just going mm-hmm yeah mm-hmm yeah very interesting and then they all go home like felt a bit mad and I'll get off my soapbox but where are we is a question for you guys where are we as an industry
missing an opportunity to grab those people that have been here 30 years that maybe have lived some really good experiences that we could all hear from, as well as some really young and new voices in the industry that are saying, I'm brand new and I come at this from a completely different angle on the same topic. Like, where are we missing an opportunity or missing a trick?
Anamaria (19:04.506)
The thing that comes to mind for me first is participation. feel they're very one-sided and maybe that's the definition of what a conference is by design. But we can do better and there are conferences out there that are more playful with the formats and I...
Greg Arthur (19:09.102)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (19:15.693)
Yeah.
Anamaria (19:24.862)
There's, usually, because they happen once a year and they're quite big and in every single industry there are two, three, four conferences on a global scale running for years and those are it. Every now and then like kind of someone new comes in with some smaller type of event which is a bit more indie etc. Otherwise those are the, those are the conferences that are attracting the brightest.
Greg Arthur (19:36.238)
Hmm.
Anamaria (19:49.806)
minds of our industry and I'm not talking about the experts that step on the stage. I'm talking about the participants, the VPs of learning, the director, the CLOs, but even the new peers or colleagues that are just stepping out of the university and they seeing the world with different eyes. And for me, every time I think about that,
Greg Arthur (19:50.702)
Hmm.
Greg Arthur (19:56.546)
Mm-hmm.
Greg Arthur (20:11.98)
Mm.
Anamaria (20:15.032)
because I'm so used, I guess, with smaller formats, courses, workshops, just things where there's this intimate smaller group. And maybe because we're intimidated by the scale, we kind of think that you cannot go and design for participation or conversation amongst participants because you have thousands of people.
Greg Arthur (20:23.918)
Hmm.
Anamaria (20:36.598)
It's not easy, but it's most definitely possible. You will have to potentially ditch some of the slots and redesign the agenda a little bit, but that's definitely possible. So for me, that's one thing. How do we include formats that are more participatory? Like I've been to design conferences, they have workshops. People work around the table. They prototype, they converse, they debate.
Greg Arthur (20:56.75)
Mm.
Anamaria (21:01.646)
They have their speakers on the stage, but there's so many things happening around that. So it's almost as if it's those two days or like an eco, like a playground of things and you can move around and pick and choose what's happening. There's workshops, there's fishbowl conversations, there's world cafe tables or round tables of discussions around topics. You don't always need to have an expert stage on the stage to learn from them. Not that that's wrong, but that's kind of how you open up to these
Greg Arthur (21:11.054)
Hmm.
Greg Arthur (21:23.214)
Hmm.
Anamaria (21:31.64)
variety of ideas from the audience. That's one thing and I had another point which is gone now so I'm passing it on to Dini and maybe it's coming back to me. Yeah, I don't know. It was really good though. It's gonna come back.
Greg Arthur (21:34.094)
Hmm.
Dinye (21:43.865)
Yes. I totally agree with participation. me, to me, know, like our world is too complex to be simplified by the same person over and over again within a decade. The problems, the issues that we're facing are too diverse to be represented by only very few voices. So to your point, Ana Maria, I think
Greg Arthur (22:02.531)
Mm-hmm.
Dinye (22:14.171)
Yes, that's why to me I call the organizer to create a design that is participatory where I have nothing against the researchers or the academics, but as a practitioner who is in the trenches day in, day out and know how difficult it is to manage stakeholders.
I cannot help but feel annoyed when I hear someone that's never there and then say, here are the top 10 things you have to do. I was like, thanks, you know, live my life and then tell me about it. While at the same time, I think it can be a much more enriched conversation if both voices are, and all kind of voices are there, the researchers, the thought leaders, the one who's doing
Greg Arthur (22:48.419)
Yeah.
Dinye (23:06.587)
consulting, as an external, the one who's doing the work. And to design a stage or like a platform where all these voices, and you know, there are participatory designs out there that can be used. will be challenge to do it for thousands of people, but there are ways and that's why it can be done if you want to. But I know it's not the most economic or efficient.
Greg Arthur (23:21.966)
Hmm.
Greg Arthur (23:33.037)
Mm.
Dinye (23:36.635)
thing perhaps. But at the same time sometimes I'm also criticizing my fellow practitioners who come to these conferences because OEB, fun fact, they also have these different formats for workshop, fist balls, debate, etc. But so it's located on a different floor and there is a different floor for like these keynote speeches, etc. Most people go to the keynote speeches because why? Because it's comfortable. They sit, they listen.
They feel like they gain something, but truly when you ask, OK, which of this can you apply then? No, then why are you not using the workshop room? Why are you not going to the playground session? So that's why to me I wanted to address both parties like it's like I think it's fair to call organizers to be more innovative and to be more inclusive, but it's also.
Greg Arthur (24:13.656)
Mm.
Dinye (24:35.343)
fair to ask fellow practitioners to ask more, to be more present and to actually walk the talk as learning professionals and learn. They know that that's not how learning will happen by listening to keynote speakers. So that to me, like participation is is really one thing and looking for diverse voices and
Greg Arthur (24:44.93)
I'm su-
Greg Arthur (25:00.515)
Yes.
Dinye (25:02.105)
You know, the thing with us practitioners who are sometimes not very good at telling our stories, whereas if you are, you know, professional speakers, you are good. You are charismatic, you attract crowd. And that to me also like a gap that we could fill. Then let's teach this awesome practitioners who are doing really great work to present their work. And even if it's not perfect, for me, there is also this
Greg Arthur (25:11.854)
Hmm.
Greg Arthur (25:29.198)
Mm.
Dinye (25:30.693)
practice element that is missing from conference. It all needs to be shiny and best practices and innovative and all the good stuff. And we don't hear the sob stories of, yup, I did that, didn't happen. And I know there is, know, confidentiality cause and anything, but I think if we are truly learning professionals, then we should also embrace those part of like,
Greg Arthur (25:33.283)
Mm.
Dinye (26:00.633)
Reflecting our craft that involves failures, mistakes, sob stories of failing to convince people.
Greg Arthur (26:09.486)
Absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that I was thinking about when we were kind of designing the questions for our chat today was when we talk about product design with a client, completely away from conferences, just about a product, whatever it's going to be, I'm sure you guys do this as well. One of the first things we ask them is, what's happening right now? Why do you know it's a problem? And what is your goal? Like if you had magic wand or...
all the unlimited budget, all the unlimited results, what's the best thing that you would like to happen and how do you know that that's happening? What are you measuring or what are you spotting, what are you seeing? And then we kind of work backwards and sort of break their problem down and how everything's broken out. When we attend conferences, and I'm generalizing here for everyone in the L &D industry, we don't really go with a goal apart from, I'd like to learn something or it will be great to see that speaker.
And it's like, well, you could just read their LinkedIn profile, probably watch a video of them talking or I don't know, like, but what's the real reason you're going there? Especially if it's like 1500 pounds or something to go, that's a lot of money to go, whether you're paying for it, your company's paying for it, someone somewhere is paying for it. So if I'd said to you, it's 1500 pounds of your money, it's gonna come out of your paycheck this month, you're gonna go and do something with that.
and it's gotta have a benefit to you as a learning professional, I can't imagine many people that would say, yeah, I'll go, I'll spend that money from my pocket and I'll go to that conference and I will get something, this very ambiguous something that they're gonna get. So yeah, I find it a bit mad, but then I wanted to kind of segue in to you guys creating your own conference, the LND Shakers Conference and how that's, so what,
What was the, I guess what was the tipping point where you said, this is crazy, we've got to do our own thing? At what point did you just kind of go ahead?
Anamaria (28:19.77)
So it didn't really happen like that, to be honest. Like we didn't set out to do that because we were necessarily unhappy with, you it wasn't a rebellious act. Like we weren't going against something that was there. It was an idea that came out of our local hub here in Amsterdam. So Allende Shakers, a global online community, but we have hubs, offline gatherings in 16 cities around the world. Amsterdam is one of them. And it's been led by three wonderful shakers and they came up with the idea.
Greg Arthur (28:31.107)
Mm.
Anamaria (28:49.676)
and they reached out one day like, why don't we do like a conference like a bigger like a bigger gathering with maybe maybe over a hundred people maybe 100 150 let's see something that it's not massive but still kind of bigger than our 20 30 people meetups and I said sure fantastic but if you do that I want you to think how is that different than any other conference out there
Greg Arthur (28:57.166)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (29:07.373)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (29:15.171)
Mm-hmm.
Anamaria (29:15.796)
And because everything we do in Alan D. Shaker's kind of has to live up to our...
identity of shaking things up. Whenever we come up with ideas to play with there's always this lens that we look at how can we shake this things up and they had already very, the team had very specific expectations. I was then part of the volunteering team. We ended up, they put a call to action, that's how we work in the community. Someone has an idea, they want to bring it to life, they put a call to action out there and then we rally a team of volunteers to bring it to life.
Greg Arthur (29:30.094)
Hmm.
Anamaria (29:51.692)
And so I was part of the 10 persons team that brought this non-friends as we called it to life because we said if this is not a conference, then what is it? It's not a conference. So it is a non-friends. And we really, think the biggest thing that we did was to very intentionally turn
in on its head your typical conference and everything that we just talked about these experts that use folks coming to take the stage the people that you see everywhere all the time and you kind of know what they're going to talk about and try to put
Greg Arthur (30:20.046)
Mm.
Anamaria (30:30.72)
our community of practice flavor to it. So less about perfection and experts, more about daring and trying to break things and do things differently and exposing ourselves to the risk that that's not going to work or that we're going to sit there and it's going to feel uncomfortable or weird or strange. And also for us as a group that brought this to life, really were, what do I want to do? Like how do I use this as a learning opportunity? And so we really look at it through that very mindfully purpose.
Greg Arthur (30:33.261)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (30:43.619)
Mm-hmm.
Greg Arthur (30:55.48)
Mm-hmm.
Anamaria (31:00.636)
has to be different. That was the first goal, this has to be different. Second, this has to have a shakers flavor. We're all about connection, we're all about just equality. I guess we're very spoiled in communities of practice because we don't have necessarily this expert guru status. Like everyone's an expert in something today, tomorrow you ask a question, you get a reply from someone that asks another question the other day. So it's like we're all just learning and
at the same time. So I know something that you might know and we kind of cross-pollinate and so everyone's an expert and everyone's an office at something. So we kind of are very equalized from that perspective and so we're very spoiled when it comes to that and we really went on there with the idea to design an experience. So we wanted to showcase to our peers and to ourselves what
Greg Arthur (31:30.766)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (31:36.962)
Yes. Yeah.
Greg Arthur (31:49.836)
Mm.
Anamaria (31:56.186)
or how far can you stretch this concept of a conference. So it was almost an experiment for us as well.
Greg Arthur (32:00.078)
Mm.
Anamaria (32:03.162)
And we took a lot of inspiration and actually the methodology that we used in the back end of the design was experience design. It was not even learning experience design. It was pure, how do I design an experience for 120 people we ended up being in the room that spent one day together. And the purpose is to explore learning. So I can go into the design if that's interesting, but that was kind of how we started.
Greg Arthur (32:14.114)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (32:22.574)
Mm-hmm.
Anamaria (32:32.448)
almost as an incubator, tank, creative experiment to see what is possible with the main purpose of doing it and see what works and what doesn't and how what you can steal away to your conference maybe or to your events at home or in your organization, etc. And generally just to push the...
Greg Arthur (32:38.702)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (32:42.722)
Yeah.
Anamaria (32:52.826)
Just to push the boundaries a bit further, I think that was very exciting for everyone who was involved. Like, I don't know, let's break it and let's see what happens. Like, how bad can it be, you know? So yeah, but we did have the safety of a community and like-minded people that were like, everyone was like, let's experiment. And yeah, just one thing.
Greg Arthur (33:01.89)
Yeah.
Greg Arthur (33:12.526)
And I cut, sorry, after you. I was just gonna, sorry.
Anamaria (33:16.154)
Yeah, so I just want one thing here related to our Dini's article. I haven't read through all of the comments, but I think there was quite a big conversation around this. If I pay for a conference, then I expect state of the art. And somehow we still, unfortunately,
Greg Arthur (33:26.99)
Mm.
Anamaria (33:34.218)
state of the art equals experts and people with many many years of experience and state of the art cannot mean experimenting or failing and see what doesn't work and so on and so we weren't burdened by that by those expectations in our community of practice bubble where it's all about learning and failing so i think that was definitely a plus that maybe other conferences don't have.
Greg Arthur (33:57.228)
Yeah, absolutely. I was actually going to bring that up. to Denis' point about working with startups and people being on stage and saying, this is how you manage stakeholders is the example you gave. And you're sitting there just kind of raging inside going, no, that's not how it happens. And especially the point you made about people sharing their failures. So I've mentioned on this podcast a number of times about a particular project that I'd...
that I'd worked on in a previous role, loved it, hadn't shared it with anyone at this point. I was like, this is great. Took it to a couple of markets, they destroyed it within seconds. But then there was so early stages where I was like, great, I can take all their feedback on why they hate it, what was gonna work. Turned it around, took it back to them, did that a few times, and then eventually ended up with something that was really, really good. And it actually ended up being quite successful, which I was quite happy with, but.
If I'd gone with the original, you know, just me and a few friends sitting nearby to go, hey, look what I've done. And then just everyone sort of nodding and going, yeah, this is great. Would have been a huge waste of time. So taking that ethos into creating a conference where it's not huge big name speakers, it's not kind of flashy and people are being quite open to, I'm paying to be at a conference, but I might fail at something. How does that play into...
And we'll come to you in a second, Marie. But I going to ask, how's that playing to the Shakers community and the people you see at other larger scale conferences, but then, Dinny, to your point around working with startups, again, we talk to people about product design for learning around, think of every product as if it's your first product you're releasing as a company. You don't have a backup plan because it's your first product. You don't have a second chance to make a first opinion or a first impression.
So this has to work. you really have to, yeah, and you also have to move at speed, like way quicker than if you're working in a corporate. So how does this kind of shift in kind of conference mindset kind of play into the people that you're spending a lot of time with in the kind of startup world?
Dinye (36:09.007)
I hope I interpret your question correctly. But to me, the big conference, they will always have their own audience because that's an industry on its own. That's what they sell. They sell the big names. They sell the glamorous experience. There is party. There is the fancy networking and all of this.
Greg Arthur (36:31.608)
Yeah.
Dinye (36:34.575)
There is also like, rubbing shoulders with the experts, et cetera. So that will, I think that will always stay. And some of the organizers commented on the article themselves. So they, they message, they DM me as well. And most of them, not all of them were very gracious. It's like, thank you for that call out. you know, they, they tried to like defend why they did.
Greg Arthur (36:47.63)
Mm.
Dinye (37:00.903)
the things that they did, which I also completely understand. It's economic. They need to do that. They need to follow trends. They need to attract big names, all of this. However, these days with the reality, it's not only in startups that L &D is getting more constrained with resources. It's not only in startups that L &D is being asked to change very quickly and to adapt very quickly to deliver real business impacts.
Greg Arthur (37:02.542)
So,
Greg Arthur (37:20.044)
Mm-hmm.
Dinye (37:30.563)
So, and I think, you know, with non friends, with many other smaller communities who are trying to provide a different kind of experience, that will be the, you know, if you think of L &D conference as a product, that's an established product. That's the brand premium product that people, most people will know, and most people will go, but there will be people who are going to look for medicine and not just
Greg Arthur (37:49.838)
Mm.
Dinye (38:00.111)
vitamins and these are the ones who will go into this community of practices who is ready to get dirty and showcase their vulnerabilities and discuss about failures and all of this stuff because the point of them going there is to get better, not to just get inspiration or learn about the newest stuff. And that to me, like when I go to a conference, the reason like
Because when you go to conference and you either you talk about the shiny things of the year, AI, metaverse, whatever you call it, or you talk about this best practices in leadership and storytelling, that there is no continuity in there. To me, looking at it as a practice mean, okay, I learned about AI this year in this conference. And here I go as practitioner implementing what I learned in that conference.
Greg Arthur (38:45.187)
Mm-hmm.
Dinye (38:56.803)
And next year I'll report back about what I did with that AI and that can look like failure and that can look like success. And having that continuity and having that mindset of like going to conference as like a practice moment of sharing your steps is much more powerful as a learning experience for me than just going. That's a very expensive.
Greg Arthur (39:05.431)
Mm-hmm.
Dinye (39:23.981)
inspiration and time consuming learning experience that doesn't really bring anything to my work. So that's why I personally would rather go now like I decided myself. I'll probably go still to these L &D conferences every five years or so just to see where we are standing as industry in general. But if I'm really looking for practice and I'm going to go for smaller ones.
Greg Arthur (39:25.57)
Yes, yes.
Greg Arthur (39:39.618)
Mm-hmm.
Greg Arthur (39:50.83)
It makes me laugh that storytelling is still high up on the agenda but there's no continued story. It just feels like the same book with a different cover every year. Just on the nonference because I've read a lot about it, I didn't get a chance to go, I'm gonna try again next time. But then I asked you at the start what was the first conference you went to and what did you take away from it and
To be fair, all three of us were a bit like, I think I went to this one. I didn't really take much from it. With the non-ference, what did you guys as, I guess as all types of roles, as in being participants, being creators, being owners of it, just involved in the online discussion around it and just the online discussion of conferences in general, what have you taken away from it has that changed since it happened and to where we are now?
Anamaria (40:50.724)
So can only, I can speak from a personal, from a personal stand and how that felt like for me. So the day definitely, perceived it very differently compared to a participant as being one of the people that were very busy in the back end. And also due to the nature of the design, imagine it as a big one day workshop slash immersive experience at times.
Greg Arthur (41:17.838)
Mm-hmm.
Anamaria (41:20.666)
and moving people from one room to the other while something changes in the back end all the time. So there was no fixed seating, there was no, there was a lot of movement in formats, the way the rooms were arranged, what we were doing, how we were playing. We had embodiment, we closed with a sound bathing experience and the painting experience of the insights or take away. So it had a lot of elements that were
maybe not traditionally linked to this concept of conference, but potentially used in smaller workshop in specific particular areas of our industry. So we really brought them together to see what they feel like for us. It was very interesting to me how well received it was.
Greg Arthur (41:55.713)
Hmm.
Anamaria (42:10.65)
I mean we knew that we're designing something that is new and fresh and usually when you design something that is new and fresh that comes across very well because we are thirsty for novelty, we are thirsty to see something new and there was a big echo on LinkedIn of people sharing their experiences etc but in that big wow and kind of
Greg Arthur (42:30.338)
Mm.
Anamaria (42:36.642)
in that all positivity around that we did receive feedback and that was very much linked to I expected something else and that something else is the typical I'm coming I I'm expecting more content and so the non-friends had a very small bucket of content that someone
delivered to the participants. It was all the wrong content that we had to sense make or create. So there were a lot of moments of reflections. There was a potent activity to use artifacts to talk about learning impact. And so that is hard. We're not used to that. It's hard to learn like that, even for us stewards of learning very often.
Greg Arthur (43:06.702)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (43:23.342)
Mm.
Anamaria (43:31.662)
That feedback was not preponderant, it really, I think it stuck with me because I realized like, it's important to have a bit for everyone. Very much like a menu because there are still people, yes, in the age of AI, yes, in the age where content is literally the cheapest thing out there that you can think about.
Greg Arthur (43:41.006)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (43:53.677)
Mm.
Anamaria (43:56.46)
We've got Chad GP. We have the world, the con, the world's content at our fingertips, everything that was done so far or created or thought about so far. And so I, I feel like there's gonna be more and more importance put into spaces where we come together to debate what do we do with that content and how the frustrations that we feel when we apply something and it doesn't work and how do we recover from that and how do we try again.
Greg Arthur (44:05.582)
Hmm.
Anamaria (44:22.37)
And how do we take a piece of content and apply it to our context and everything Din was talking about, right? And some of us are there, but there's still some of us that are not there yet. And for whom, yes, in our L &D industry profession, content equals learning. And so if I have not seen, if I've paid to go somewhere, no matter how affordable that ticket was, if I block the day in my agenda and I haven't seen an X amount of speakers talking about X amount of topics,
Greg Arthur (44:33.005)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (44:49.966)
Hmm.
Anamaria (44:52.056)
that I hopefully took notes because not everyone takes notes, but hopefully, let's say that I was super interested, I took notes and I kind of tried to make sense of it. That equals a waste of time. And these are kind of harsh words. It wasn't transmitted like that, but you know what I mean. it and I think that was a very that was an interesting insight for me.
Greg Arthur (45:05.134)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (45:09.933)
Yeah.
Anamaria (45:16.568)
Because I'm thinking, well, if not us, then who and why do I attend conferences? Why do I attend design conferences that are much more, that are much better design when it comes to the experience and the learning experience than our own conferences? We're supposed to be the people that know how learning works and how we learn. And I think that was the piece that is like.
Greg Arthur (45:20.342)
Mmm.
Greg Arthur (45:24.878)
Mm-hmm.
Anamaria (45:47.13)
Okay, it's good. You need both. You need both to keep people happy, right? So there's a place and a time for everything. But I'll forever be advocating for new things. That's for sure. Do things differently and just play with it. So yeah, I don't know if that answer, that was a long winded answer, but yes, that was my personal learning, reflection inside as a result of that.
Greg Arthur (45:58.636)
Yeah, yeah.
Greg Arthur (46:06.54)
No, that was...
Greg Arthur (46:12.946)
I think that's great. for both of you actually, having been through big global scale conferences, the non-ference, and also just thinking about what you would like for a conference. So not just you, as in just for you, but as in what you think a good conference for the industry would be. What kind of things do you think are staples that people need?
So I kind of agreed to a point, more from probably a commercial point, big name speaker, sometimes it just helps to get people in the door. But then, and I've gone to events where it's like, I'm gonna hear this person speak. But then I found so many other things there that I didn't expect to enjoy or didn't know about that I've kind of stumbled across and it's been brilliant. I've always had some really bad experiences with that. So it kind of works both ways. But if I was designing a conference.
I think I would need to balance that commerciality aspect of will anyone turn up versus if they do turn up, that's great, but now I've got to do something that's gonna be useful. Otherwise they've just turned up and I look really silly. So what kind of things do you guys think we can take from kind of both elements of the kind of standard and traditional and the kind of a, I guess the newer way of thinking about conferences? Dinny, we'll start with you.
Dinye (47:39.887)
Yes. To me, when I hear the question, the image that I have in my mind is a dojo. So my father was a karate teacher. I'm the weakling in the family. I have no idea about karate, but my brother and my sister, do that. And they have their dojo. So it's a practice room. But it's also there are certain principles that
is part of a dojo. It's a shared space so everyone contributes equally whether you are a master or a student or a teacher everyone contributes equally to the whole learning experience. It's immersive. You don't hear speeches in dojo. You hear someone show you how to do things and then people practice together until they get it right.
It's meant to be a continuous place. It's meant to be a place of renewal, of improvement. So the expectation is you will need to put hard work into there so that you come out better. So there is an adjustment from the master's point of view, but also the adjustment from the participants point of view of how to perceive this space. So, you know, there...
Greg Arthur (48:48.344)
Mm-hmm.
Dinye (49:04.781)
The big dojo still needs a big names master. So the one who has like black belt, whatever, whatever to attract crowds, to make sure that people come into this dojo. But when, once you are there, this sense of, big master teach me things is less because now it's more about practicing together. So that's.
Greg Arthur (49:25.262)
Absolutely.
Dinye (49:26.915)
That's to me, and I like the word that Ana Maria chose, like steward of learning. So steward of learning can mean practitioner, researcher, academicians, et cetera. But once they come in into that space together, they're all just learners and they all host, be hosted both ways in a way that everyone that comes out of that space become better. And it's, yeah, again, I think I'm repeating myself. It's a continuous, it's meant as a stop.
Greg Arthur (49:41.176)
Mm-hmm.
Dinye (49:56.439)
in the whole practice that we have in our profession. So hopefully if we can get that sense of principles embodied in our conferences, I'd be happy. I'll come every year.
Greg Arthur (50:12.558)
I think that's brilliant. I love that analogy and the use of word adjustments that you can't just come along and it's a big name master. So you go on, I turn up and I just watched them do what they're really good at. So clearly I'm now really good at it as well. doesn't work like that. And I think that's such a great, I'm gonna, if you don't mind, I'm gonna steal that analogy and tell everyone else. But I will 100 % credit you. Anna Maria, what's your...
Anamaria (50:41.06)
Yeah, I'll try. I'm going to use an example of a conference that I attended and I thought like, OK, I like it's it's it's moving in the right direction. And obviously, the non-Friends is like over the top experience. Amazing. But.
Greg Arthur (50:42.274)
wishlist.
Anamaria (51:01.346)
It wasn't designed for business. It wasn't designed for vendors. It was not designed for big names, etc. Now, if I were to put that aside and imagine like, what would that model look like for it to be both a business, profitable and kind of get the money in both from partners, sponsors and participants, but also keep in mind the participant experience and meet somewhere in the middle and kind of marinate those worlds I attended last year.
Greg Arthur (51:05.358)
Mm.
Anamaria (51:31.034)
conference in the Netherlands. First time I heard about it, also mainly in Dutch attracts about 500-600 participants, mainly the Netherlands and Belgium. It's called the Next Learning Conference. Next Learning. I'm gonna give a shout out to Sam van der Schans. I'm probably mispronouncing her name, but she is the curator of the conference or the manager, the person that kind of designs the experience.
And I met her through Lauren Waldman and I actually hosted a workshop at the conference and attended as a participant. But also we were allowed to design an experience for next learning. So I'm going to try to very briefly describe what the conference looks like. It's not in a hotel, so they are hosting it in this was in a conference center, a big conference center in a beautiful open building. And what matters a lot is the space.
the space you're building your conference, you're inviting people in matters more than you think. Whether it's a stale hotel that kind of has like 10 different rooms that you don't see what's happening and you have to move through hallways or a big conference area where you can see the stage in front and you can move around and it's this big beautiful open airy space. They had the stage, it was properly produced, like there were lights, there were...
flowers that were not out of plastic. There were lights, there were like it looked designed, it looked put together, it looked as if someone thought about that to create almost a vibe around it. But then around the stage, both left and right, they invited different people, both internal, external, some of the speakers to design. I don't want to say boots because they weren't boots. They kind of had spaces and everyone could bring and put design anything there.
Greg Arthur (53:01.998)
Hmm.
Anamaria (53:22.33)
They had workshops and when I say workshops I mean people worked on big flip charts and kind of printables and there were stickies and people went through frameworks together etc. And so they worked with tracks really. I think it's not that hard to add in a bit of a variety. You can keep your track of the experts while having a track of the young, I don't know, the new mind, the new voices of the industry.
Greg Arthur (53:48.494)
Mm.
Anamaria (53:50.222)
You can keep a track with talks and you can have a track with workshops that happen in Parallel. There's a spiel, there's a kind of a dance that you can do with that if you really want to. I saw workshops that were hand-picked, meaning they were geared towards L &D directors and upwards, like really high-end. And you were attending the conference, but you had to apply to the workshop and you were hand-picked.
Greg Arthur (54:10.446)
Mm-hmm.
Anamaria (54:19.128)
And so the person who attended that workshop, it was absolutely priceless to sit for three hours guided by a professional facilitator around the table with other L &D directors to talk about your day to day. That is tremendous value that can be done with simply just allowing variety in the way things get organized. Conversation prompts, conversation cards on all the tables. The vendors, no stands.
Greg Arthur (54:32.91)
Mm.
Anamaria (54:48.538)
the vendors had almost like a little amphitheater that they rented, like a little semi-circle amphitheater. Like, it felt like in school, right? And there were balloons everywhere. It truly felt like a playground, right? And I thought, oh, you have the vendors, but they're not in your face. They're doing their thing, but at the same time, you really feel there's this playfulness, it's properly designed. It feels like you've landed in a conference in 2024. That was last year.
I don't feel like this is your 1992 conference and here I am transported back in time, right? So all of these details matter a lot. So kudos to Sam because she did awesome. And for us, for example, she allowed us to do a, we created what we called this learning museum. And so we really bought prompts and it was an empty experience track that people can move through.
Greg Arthur (55:25.496)
Yeah.
Greg Arthur (55:42.894)
Hmm.
Anamaria (55:46.624)
they've built it up together. So we were writing, we were sticking, we were stamping, we had a massive collage on the floor. So the participants were able to just pick and choose, design your own adventure, and there was a lot of variety. And so that was the example that was closest to what I think is the next step when it comes to conference in our industry.
Greg Arthur (56:01.644)
Mm.
Greg Arthur (56:13.582)
And I think I saw some photos on LinkedIn of the Learning Museum side of things and it looked really really different too. And I think you have to be there to experience it to get the full weight of it but even just looking through the photos it didn't feel like you're sitting in conference centre or a big hotel. There was no rows of anything. It was just yeah people doing what they do.
Anamaria (56:18.426)
Mmm.
Anamaria (56:22.382)
Yes.
Anamaria (56:26.52)
Yes.
Anamaria (56:36.962)
No, but also kudos to Sam for saying you have that space, play with it, like be creative and just allowing us that freedom. And so we presented the concept and she was like, my God, so cool. I can't really see it. I don't really imagine it, but I trust you to pull this off. And so that was just amazing because that's what this is all about, right? So yeah, it was good experience. Shout out to next.
Greg Arthur (56:46.41)
Mmm. Yeah.
Anamaria (57:06.188)
next learning that they're doing good stuff.
Greg Arthur (57:07.438)
Absolutely. And I can imagine there's some people listening that are probably going to say, that's not how it works in my job or my role and you we don't, we don't get to do these kinds of things. I guess my, my pushback on that is probably, that's probably the case, but why are we as an industry overusing the word experience if that's not what you're doing and why are you, why are you
trying to strive for this kind of mad creative utopia if you just then revert back to like you say how things were done in 1992. So I think there is a there's either a reality check or an identity check that the industry needs to do and I feel like if people get out of their own way they're going to lean more towards what you were just talking about than what's what's currently happening. That's my little digger.
Everyone that says that. Everything else is just conversation. But the last thing, we're way over time, but I've really enjoyed this. What do you guys think? And you can pick whichever one you want. So let's say 10 or 20 years from now, what do you think learning conferences will look like?
Dinye (58:14.255)
Thank
Dinye (58:27.551)
Thank
Greg Arthur (58:28.066)
And again, this is complete guesswork. I'll answer why you guys are thinking. I have absolutely no idea. I think if I was thinking 10 years from now, probably the same. I don't think much will change. But 20 years from now, there'll be a lot of people currently in the industry that would have retired. But there'll also be a whole group of people that are maybe...
Anamaria (58:28.378)
I have a great-
Dinye (58:32.428)
Ehh!
Anamaria (58:34.916)
Yes.
Greg Arthur (58:57.922)
five years old right now, that when 20 years from now they'll be in these roles or they'll be in their early 30s like and they would have had a completely different upbringing to all of us with technology, with society, with the way they learn, with the experiences they would have gone through and I think these kind of things will be completely flipped but I don't know what that looks like.
I feel very old these days so I'm not going to guess what the young people are saying.
Anamaria (59:30.81)
There's definitely going to be some TikTok involved for sure. So here's, as you were talking, here's what, what kind of came to mind for me is I feel like the technological developments and where our world is going with AI automation, et cetera. And at least from where I'm standing, I'm not an expert. It feels like it's moving much faster than many of us would have anticipated a few years back.
Greg Arthur (59:33.868)
Yeah.
Greg Arthur (59:58.668)
Mm-hmm.
Anamaria (59:59.894)
And I think we don't, I think it's just accelerating so much faster. So 10 years or 20 years, I do expect things to be quite different, but not because we intentionally designed for that and we woke up and we were wiser, but because I think we will have to, there will be no other way. And I see them participatory for the simple fact that they will be less centered around
solutions and given and facts and things that are concrete and things that are known and set in stone as education so far has been and much more centered around questions and challenges that are wicked that we don't know how to tackle that we're gonna have to turn on all sides and that invites that that is the workshopper mindset that invites
Greg Arthur (01:00:30.2)
Mm-hmm.
Greg Arthur (01:00:42.659)
Mm.
Anamaria (01:00:58.266)
multidisciplinarity that invites people coming together around I don't know a whiteboard where you zoom in and out like in the movies and you put but the bottom line is no matter where the tech will go I think we will have to come together to unpack, untangle, make sense, debate, discuss and sit with these big questions that we will have and so maybe even cross-disciplinary.
Greg Arthur (01:01:01.964)
Yeah.
Anamaria (01:01:27.962)
conferences where L &D doesn't sit in their bubble anymore and we have to come together with people, various different agents or well, I don't want say agents, actors from the same ecosystem, right? But yeah, yeah, there's a beautiful vision that unfolds at the moment for me. So I don't know what comes up for you because I'm like, my God, I'm excited.
Greg Arthur (01:01:40.258)
Yes.
Dinye (01:01:52.635)
The first that came to my mind was the cynical part of me that said nothing will change. It will be the same. Because in some of these conferences, they play back the videos, the questions that they had from 30 years ago, and it's the freaking same questions and challenges. So that's why my first immediate thought was nothing will change. It will be the same. However, if we consider
Anamaria (01:01:58.861)
no.
Greg Arthur (01:02:04.206)
Thank you.
Dinye (01:02:22.543)
the world we are living at the moment. And as you both say, the technological advancement, it will be like much faster than we thought most probably. The planet we were living in is going to change a lot in the next 20 years. And I think there will be many external forces that will force LND to change. And, you know, even like
Greg Arthur (01:02:48.748)
Hmm.
Dinye (01:02:51.065)
When you say, it will be multidisciplinary, L &D will be more cross-functional. They will need to. We will need to be more cross-functional. The way L &D working right now with this idea of training, academy, all of this, even right now is already not valid. It will be like L &D's role when the world changed so fast and so in such a major way is to make sure that companies are catching up with it.
And then it's not going to be, you know, we need this skills or we need this skills, but it's like we need to survive. How, how fast can you help us get our employees to that level? And all of this will really shape a different conversation that we're going to have. It will. The, the fact that, you know, the, changes, planetary changes, the social society changes.
will force us to rethink about how we want to gather and for what and what we spend it for. So to me, I don't have a clear pictures of that, but I am excited in shaping it because, you know, just like any other industry where there's an established player and there is something bubbling from the bottom and they're ready to jump and shape it new.
Greg Arthur (01:03:51.394)
Mm-hmm.
Dinye (01:04:15.437)
I feel like that's also kind of what's happening with LND. I think it's you know, it's fair to say a lot of us are now in existential crisis of what were we doing? How are we creating value, et cetera? And those who don't want to face these big questions will struggle. And those who are...
Greg Arthur (01:04:18.766)
Mm.
Dinye (01:04:40.649)
this is exciting. I don't know, but I'm going to try and experiment and see how it's going to go. Are the one who is going to shape that conversation. So, yeah, a very philosophical question, I feel like. But to me, I don't know. I don't have a clear question, but I know for sure that we are going to change by a lot.
Greg Arthur (01:04:53.068)
No.
Anamaria (01:04:55.226)
Speaking.
Greg Arthur (01:05:02.904)
Yes.
Anamaria (01:05:03.578)
Speaking of existential crisis, it reminded me of the conference. We actually had an artifact design activity and we received a letter from the future where L &D was not L &D, it was the Human Enhancement Department that would go beyond learning and development and growth.
maybe we're even going to go through a rebrand in the future and we get to leave this L &D legacy with everything that kind of comes attached to that. We get to leave that behind and morph into something new, more impactful, more, I don't know, adaptive, I guess. But I think we have to meet...
same time, same place in 20 years from now and see how things go, right, Greg? Maybe you want to put a calendar thing in our agenda and just see how that goes.
Greg Arthur (01:05:50.862)
Yes, it'll be the same studio.
Greg Arthur (01:05:59.918)
That's it, we'll do it, we'll do it. And I would also say there's an episode, I think episode three we had Toby King on, and he was talking about all this kind of thing of L &D won't be L &D. It will be like a mishmash of lots and lots of different departments. And the one thing that we kind kind of bowled it down to, which I think if we look at my potential assumption at 20 years from now, is that L &D probably will be called something different.
But I think the same thing, the one thing that will be the same, sorry, will be it's people trying to help other people. And that's probably the only thing that will be the same. I don't know what they're going to be helping them with or how they're going to go about it, but there will probably be groups of people disagreeing on how the best way to do it is. But yeah, I feel like maybe the next generation will be better at going, being very logical and going.
This is a problem, this is how we solve it. Let's just get on with it. Rather than, yeah. Oh dear.
Anamaria (01:07:06.174)
the same questions over and over at every yearly conference who knows maybe dinnie's right maybe her cynical lenses maybe her cynical lens will prove to be the one that's true hopefully not we can do better than that people let's do it yes
Greg Arthur (01:07:10.046)
Exactly and expecting a different result.
Dinye (01:07:16.891)
Hopefully not.
Greg Arthur (01:07:20.494)
Maybe in 20 years they'll play this episode at the start of every conference, be like, these guys, these guys had it.
Doubtful, but maybe they will, maybe they will. If they do, you're welcome. Thank you so much. Just before we go, and I appreciate we are way over time, is there anything you want to plug or anything where people can reach out to you, anything you want to shout about, anything at all? This is the space we give everyone to do that.
Dinye (01:07:29.883)
Bye.
Dinye (01:07:34.658)
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Anamaria (01:07:53.466)
For me is Alan de Sheikha's and connect with me on LinkedIn. That's it. You're gonna find out about all that I'm up to on LinkedIn. I'm not keeping secrets.
Greg Arthur (01:08:04.078)
amazing.
Dinye (01:08:05.627)
Same with me, I am on LinkedIn and I also like so I work as L &D practitioners but I also do freelance activities here and there. If I find cool people I want to work with or cool organizations I want to support, I jump into this side projects that keep my brain ship ship and I don't know if that's a thing but yeah. Connect with me, have a chat and would love to...
to find out what others are doing, what cool things are the rest of
Greg Arthur (01:08:38.976)
Amazing, amazing. We'll tag you both when this comes out and yeah, amazing conversation. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for your time and we'll speak to you very, very soon. Have a lovely day. Cheers. Bye bye.
Anamaria (01:08:46.618)
Thank you for having us.
Dinye (01:08:50.949)
Thank you. See you soon. Bye bye.