¶ Surviving Podcasts
I don't understand why it was me . I don't know if I'll ever be the same . Is the same what I ?
want . Anyway , you took what I thought I could never get back . I quit holding onto that anger and broke down just to begin again . I'm better than you . I'm better than you . Welcome to Surviving Podcasts . We have a great guest with us today , miss Judy . Thank you so much for being here and I'm excited to have this conversation .
I did a little bit of research on you . You're an advocate for mental health and awareness , so give us a bit of an introduction on yourself .
I'm a journalist of many years and I've also written . This is my fifth book . I had a book on chronic pain , two books on chronic pain from Oxford University Press and a third book on exercise as medicine . Exercise is medicine is the title .
Then I wrote a novel , a medical thriller , called Crisperd C-R-I-S-P-R , post-A-V-D , and then this is my first and probably only memoir , so I've been all over the place .
But basically I'm a journalist and I've been a journalist for decades and I've loved being a journalist and it's been a perfect match for my personality , which is I'm an extrovert and so I love to talk to people and that's a great trait for a journalist because you could get a new story . You could get a new story at any cocktail party .
Yeah , yeah , absolutely . How did it when you , being an extrovert , how did it COVID affect you when everything shut down ?
Oh yeah , it was hard , and thank God for Zoom . Without Zoom , we would have all been lost .
Yeah .
I take a class by Zoom and I also teach a class by Zoom . Harvard , like many universities , has a lifelong learning program and it's called Harvard Institute for Learning and Retirement .
And thank God for Zoom , because I've been teaching a memoir class a writing , how to write a memoir class for a number of years , and when COVID came along , we just switched to Zoom and it worked fine , thank , goodness , thank goodness for modern technology , because I am well as an extrovert , I've got to be with people , I've got to feed off that energy .
That's what fills my bucket . So COVID got a little rough there for a while . So do you mind to give us a little bit of backstory on your experience that led you to what you do today with mental health ?
Sure , so my memoir is not all about abuse . There's a lot of interesting stuff paternalism and other things but when I was a teenager , my father , who was a vice president of one of the biggest corporations in America everyone would recognize the company . He was a typical .
I don't know , a typical might be unfair , but he was like a cartoon , a caricature of a corporate bill in the blank , not a nice person , very impersonal . In fact . He would not let my brother and me call him dad . He was just all corporate all the time , thank you , and was not capable of empathy or introspection or anything .
He would come to my bedroom door every night when I was a teenager , basically naked except for a short t-shirt . I was petrified . I was like a mock execution . Every night I thought I was going to get raped , so it was incredibly traumatizing for me . It was also an alcoholic and a very angry man and everybody in the whole family tiptoed around him .
Everybody was scared of him , basically including my mother , and why she didn't protect me is a big question . She claims to have not known , but where did she think he was going every night undressed ?
To her adolescent daughter's room , and , in terms of making sense of it and trying to heal from it her lack of responsibility , essentially , and her lack of understanding and her emotional unavailability . She was very superficially charming , but no insides , no death , and in some ways that has been more traumatic than my father's abusiveness .
It's interesting Both parents contributed in totally different ways . So I am a huge advocate of psychotherapy and mental health in general .
If you want I can , but I don't have to rattle off the statistics of women in particular who are abused , often by family members , often by parents and my father was also an alcoholic and something like 20% of adults in America grew up in an alcoholic family and that has its own kind of abuse that people have to try to heal from .
Those kinds of situations are very damaging to a child's brain that's just trying to understand the world , and for the child the whole world is the parents , and if they're not providing security , there's no security , and so you grow up with kind of a hole in the middle of your psyche which is hard to heal from . You're nodding .
Yeah , when I hear the stories of things happening to a child in those adolescent years and that brain that hasn't fully developed , knowing what I went through and where I struggle and how I had to reteach myself the definition of certain words such as what sex is as an adult , let alone a child , that in some cases that is their first experience with sex .
Like you're taught that sex is abuse but it isn't Right .
Yeah , and in my case , my father never touched me .
Sure , but the fear of it , the fear of it .
Was powerful . How old were you when your abuse happened ?
I was 42 . I was 34 when it happened . Wow , yeah , yeah , so you had an adult brain . Yeah , and that's still . What is so shocking is how much it changed me even at that age and at happening . And so when I hear stories about happening to a child , I try to not compare traumas .
Everybody's journey and their journey , right , but when it comes to children , that's a whole different thing yeah , it's very traumatizing .
It's very traumatic , yeah , as you say , even for an adult , and much more so for a child .
Sure .
And I don't think this country really recognizes how pervasive it is . Yeah , According to , first of all , definition of sexual violence is defined as sexual activity in which consent is not obtained or freely given . So that would be every our situations .
According to the CDC , the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention , nearly one in five American women has experienced a completed or attempted rape during her lifetime . That's a lot . That's 20% of women . That means if you're in a cocktail party , one out of every five women is a statistic , as it were .
And one in three female rape victims is experiences rape for the first time between age 11 and 17 . And one in eight female rape victims a report that occurred before age 10 .
And here's the one that gets me More than 90% of child sexual abuse victims know their attacker and in fact the majority 77.5% of perpetrators were the parents of the victim , and that figure comes from the US Department of Justice . This is huge .
This is a huge problem and essentially in this part of the memoir I was trying to use myself as a vehicle or as an example to illustrate this larger problem . The rest of the memoir is about my own trajectory through journalism and a lot of adventures , but this part is an attempt to say how common this is and still how under recognized it is .
Yes , that it being under recognized and brushed under the rug blaming the victim is .
I do not realize yeah .
And so you had made a and the email that was sent to me that introduced you . There was a couple of bullet points that just really stood out to me . One of them is the the various battle scars that have actually inspired you .
Yes , I have been in therapy for a lot of my life and I'm a very strong component of psychotherapy for people and I think it's a shame that mental health is not treated on a parody with so called regular medical health , because many the prevalence of depression and anxiety in this country is huge , Suicide what they call diseases of despair .
A lot of the opioid abuse problem is a mental health problem . People are in psychological pain and they try to medicaid themselves one way or another alcohol or drugs . That , combined with the gun epidemic , this country is in a mess and a lot of it is caused by other human beings .
They're suffering caused by violence psychological and physical violence toward other people and I wish we had mental health parity so that everyone who wanted to go to therapy could find a good therapist , certified therapist not a crazy do-it-yourself therapist , but a legitimate , certified therapist who could really help .
Oh , absolutely . I say probably every week in my recordings that therapy is saved my life . It's a safe space where I can release .
And not to feel alone with it . That's huge .
Yeah , that's really huge . One thing that I find so interesting interviewing people is when it comes to parents and their generation .
I know this may be backtracking a little bit , but do you think that where times were where the generation was with your mother when you were a child , with that it seemed like women have still most of this day are trained to sit down and shut up Right Years ago and still currently , people still have that mindset .
Do you think that played a factor into her turning a blonde dye and only seeing what she wanted to see ?
I certainly think . Yes , I think I do think things are a lot better now . In her generation , nobody had heard of therapy she wouldn't have even , and I didn't even identify it as a problem . It was normal what you grew up with . That's normal , no matter how screwed up it is .
When you later get out of the situation , you look back this was not right , but that was normal . And she had no job , no career . She depended on him for money . Being the marriage was all she really cared about , and that means you don't protect your kids , or , in this case and many other cases , it means you don't protect your kids .
So , yes , I think we're in way better shape now in terms of women being able to speak up , but it's still hard if you don't have the education or the means to get a job and be able to support yourself and your children . That takes a lot of money .
And of course money is what drives everything .
At least a large part of things All right .
So tell us about your book .
¶ Themes of Truth, Healing, and Stigma
Okay , since you had a little trouble stumbling over the title , I will tell you how I came up with it . My husband and I were taking a hike in the Swiss Alps this is quite a few years ago and it was a beautiful day and we were hiking along and it was great .
We were heading back after lunch towards Zermatt , major city in Switzerland , and I just aligned from a poem and I'm not even a big poetry fan , but this line from a poem jumped into my head and the complete line was if equal affection cannot be , let the more loving one be me . And it's a line from WH Rodden .
And I stopped on the trail and I said this to Ken , my husband , and I said that's amazing . And he said , yeah , it's like a marriage vow , and I said okay , let the more loving one be me . And then he gave me a huge hug and he said no , let the more loving one be me , which was very sweet .
And so I decided that's what I was going to call my book , because one thing I have learned , I think , over my life and this fits in the therapy idea is that as I have gotten healthier , the men I have chosen to marry have gotten more and more capable of intimacy . This is my third marriage . My first marriage ended in divorce .
My second , my husband , died of prostate cancer . So this is my third . But each partner , each husband , was actually the right choice for where I was emotionally at that time , which is interesting . It makes you wonder how people can be married for 70 years to the same person . More power to them .
In putting together the memoirs of this book , I realized that there was a theme , and the overarching theme was really a search for the truth , not just a search for the truth about what happened in my family , but also I've become a huge advocate of freedom of speech and the free press and searching for truth in the wider world .
And in that sense , not just because I'm an extrovert and journalism demands extroversion , but this sort of compulsion or drive to find the truth , or multiple truths , which is usually the case that kind of propelled me for both things . So it turned out there was actually a guiding principle which I wasn't aware of when I sat down to write the book .
Yeah , yeah , and I mean that comes with that just putting that pin to paper and opening yourself up .
Yeah , that can be very useful too If we're getting it down on paper and you think , wow , this really happened . I didn't set out to write a memoir book . At this program I was telling you about at Harvard , the Harvard Institute for Learning and Retirement , I decided to take a memoir class .
So I took a memoir class and you had to write a memoir every week for the class . Then I took the course several more times and pretty soon I had a huge stack of memoirs . I thought this could be a book , and piecing it together was a hard part how do I arrange it ?
So it made sense as a flowing thing , but eventually I did hit on the way to do it . It was very rewarding .
The interesting thing is , when I have given talks about this book , people come up to me afterwards with their own stories of trauma in childhood or even , as in your case , midlife or early midlife not to do with anything to do with sexual abuse , but other kinds of abuse .
For instance , a man who's actually living in my building came up to me and he said on his deathbed my father said to me you will never amount to anything . That was hugely traumatic , and other people have had suicides in their family or deaths of a parent at an early age that have left a huge mark on their personalities In the wider sense .
It's not just abuse that can lead to the need for figuring things out and therapy later on , but other forms of trauma can really affect people and can be helped by therapy .
So that's actually the last question I had for you is with the stigma that comes behind therapy , with all the cliches and negativity that comes with it , and even though we've come a long way from that , we're not where we need to be with it .
I think that's right , yeah , absolutely .
And so what advice do you have for people who therapy's been recommended to , or they feel like they need it , but they're just terrified of the stigmas that come with ?
Do it anyway would be my advice , but also they can do . What you're doing is joining a group of people with a similar problem , and that's I mean , like the whole world of alcoholism . There's obviously there's groups , frankly , in every town for alcoholics .
But also for a long time I went to a group called Children of Adult , children of Alcoholics , and there's programs like that for people with obesity problems and overeating , and you know there are groups and sometimes they're free , like the alcohol world , and I don't know if you have to pay for your group , but those can be helpful too as a way to get started
. And then if you want to do individual stuff , that to me that's the best , but groups are very powerful .
And I will say I do also do individual . I did individual for the first year and then they asked me about being interested in starting a male group therapy session . So every Tuesday I do my individual and every Thursday I do my group .
So yeah , so there's definitely more to that yeah no , that's great . That's great and that's a role model for people . Yeah , I hate that there's a stigma to that , but I think the more people go public with it , that lessens the stigma . As with anything , it's the secrets that carry that keep the shame trapped , I think 100% .
And with women and sexual abuse , women tend to blame themselves . I don't know if men do too , but and there was something recently that I read I think was in the New York Times about rape victims If it's in a court , they often are not believed , unless they scream or try to run away .
But in fact , what really happens to people in a situation of terror is they freeze , and freezing is not convincing to a jury or a judge , only what Hollywood would have you do , and that's unfair too , because you would react according to your own physiology . Freezing is like what animals do if they're being attacked they play dead . So there's even or not even .
But in the justice system in particular , it has not believed women . Look at Joe Biden , whom I like , but he if you need a Hill hearings nobody believed her when she was satisfying against Clarence Thomas . It's taken a whole generation to get past that . So I'm glad we're making progress , but we have a long way to go .
We are . We've mentioned COVID a couple of times . I try to find something positive in everything , and the one positive I can find with COVID is that it woke people up to mental health and self-care .
I think it made people very aware of the need for community , which we haven't been , I think , culturally that aware of . We have a lot of people living alone an epidemic of loneliness at this point and it's hard on people . It's not like a little Italian village where everybody knows everybody , which can certainly have its own problems .
But basically we need each other . We're mammals , we need each other .
Absolutely , miss Judy . Thank you so much for being here with us today . I really enjoy the conversation . Please , before we go , you mentioned how you've written all these books , and so where can we find you in these books and educate ourselves on what you have to offer ?
OK , so my name is Judy Forman , my website is judyformancom . I have all my books on that , and you can also go to Amazon , and all my books are on Amazon too , so I hope you buy them all .
¶ Finding Healing and Support After Trauma
And that wraps up another powerful episode of Surviving Abuse . I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our incredible guests for sharing their transformative journey with us today . Your bravery is an inspiration to us all . Before we go , I want to remind you to stay connected with us on our social media platforms .
Follow us on Instagram , twitter , facebook and TikTok , where we will continue the conversation , share resources and provide support for survivors like you . Remember you're not alone . To all of our listeners , thank you for joining us again . Your resilience and willingness to heal is what makes this community strong .
As we embark on this journey together , let's remember that there is life . After trauma . We can rise above it and create a future filled with hope and joy . Join us next week as we dive into the healing process and share more incredible stories of triumph and resilience .
Until then , take care of yourself and remember you deserve love , you deserve happiness and , above all , you deserve an abundance of healing .
And I'll pray for you . I'm done hurting and I'll be the only one who can hang our hope as you win any longer . Then we begin again . Now I'll beg and I'll pray for you . I'm done hurting .
