Anna Nasset: A Journey Through Stalking and the Fight for Change

I was living out in Washington state on a small town of Port Townsend , washington Nice little liberal rural community , and owned an art gallery where a man I don't know targeted me and began to stalk me and really uprooted my entire life which is what we're going to be talking about today and I would end up closing my business and then moving across the country

. He continued to stalk me , luckily never came out here to Vermont , but eventually was prosecuted in Washington state in 2019 . And is currently serving the largest sentence in our country's history , which is 10 years for the crime of stalking .

He got the maximum for aggravated felony stalking and felony cyber stalking and even prior to that trial , I really started to look around and see how little was known about stalking and how I had one of the few cases where every victim , service provider , advocate , law enforcement , prosecutor , for the most part really showed up and believed me and supported me and

was there for me . So , even though it took us eight years to get to this trial , it really still had this good outcome , and I just realized I couldn't be the exception .

This needed to be the standard , because stalking is so overlooked , under reported , it's so intersectional with other gender based violent crimes of domestic and sexual violence , and the results can be life ending . I know my life has been altered forever , but I am sitting here and I shouldn't be , and it was because I was believed by so many people that I am .

So I started a business called Stand Up Resources where I provide training to law enforcement advocates , military universities , all that and got very involved in my state as well , doing different campaigns and platforms , and just wrote a book .

I'm really just all about how can we educate people about stalking , because the more who know , the safer we're going to be .

I feel like the word stalking gets used so loosely and after having a conversation with a guest when I first started that it woke me to that to , and so now I'm choosing my words a little differently .

Sure , and one of the things I always say is that until we recognize that it's a problem , I don't really fault people because they didn't know that's the intent . Absolutely . I was just with some friends the other day and one of them used the word stalking in an inappropriate way and they're like oh yeah , I was stalking this person on Instagram .

Were you now , were you really stalking them ? And they're like oh yeah , oh crap , it's okay . And they're like I'm so sorry , I'm so sorry , I'm like it's okay , but the more you're going to keep reminding yourself when you say it , that's not an appropriate use , because stalking isn't funny , it's not just a random coincidence , it's actually a crime .

And just for your listeners to go over , the DOJ , department of Justice definition of stalking is and I'm paraphrasing , obviously but stalking is a course of conduct that causes a reasonable person fear for their safety , the safety of others around them , or severe emotional distress .

And when they say course of conduct means repeated things , but that's only two or more things . But if you have two unwented messages from somebody , or two times of them following you , two unwanted gifts , whatever it might be , that qualifies as stalking and it is a crime in all of our states . Wow . But so often we don't realize that .

So often I talk to people all the time they're like , oh my gosh , I was stalked by an ex , or oh my gosh , I was stalked by a coaker . And because it's so diminished , because we were told we're overreacting , it's not a big deal , it's not that bad , we don't realize that it actually is a crime and that it is really bad .

Either way , the person had to keep changing their cell phone number and when they would call and report this , they were told to we'll just change your number , we'll just change your number . Why should you have to change your number ? Why should you have to uproot and leave ? Why does that fall on your shoulders ?

And I don't think that people realize that is also part of victim blaming .

And within these crimes where , especially with stalking , where until there is a physical wound it's very hard to prove a psychological crime , right , right . And so much of that gets put on the individual , like for me with my business , and this is the truth for so many people the last place you want to be is where the stalker knows you are .

So here I am trying to keep this business running , but I had a gall at work for me one or two days a week , but other than that I'm always there . So that's not where I want to be . So I was closing all the time . I couldn't focus on work , similar things that other people feel after an assault or if they're in that domestic violence situation .

You're staring out the window instead of concentrating on your work .

The amount of work that is lost for stalking victims is pretty big and the amount of people that move is really big as well that we're doing whatever we can to keep ourselves safe , and it's really unfortunate we're such a long way away from being to get the appropriate services and needs in place for victims of stalking to be able to live safely .

It's that extra barrier to be like okay , the stalker is in building over here , I'm in building over here . We need to be 500 feet from each other , like how do you navigate that ? And that's where the real psychological toll comes in as well , where it's that lifetime psychological toll that I still deal with .

I can safely walk in this world right now , but do I ever feel that way ?

so start where you want to and whatever you feel comfortable telling us of how this all transpired .

This guy who I didn't know just walks up and knocks on the door until I popped down and he tells me he wants to show artwork at my gallery and he gives me the gift of a small painting . I gave him my business card . The conversation lasted less than five minutes .

Now , what I didn't know and wouldn't realize for years is that he'd probably been watching me since 2008 or 2009

. And he actually had popped into my gallery before , but I just hadn't recognized him because it's a bit open business , like we just don't do that . After he gave me that gift of a painting , he started messaging me when I rejected showing his artwork and then he started sending me face messages .

We weren't friends on Facebook , but you can send a message pretty easily and pretty quickly . My radar went up because he started to comment on my appearance . He started to say things like it was nice to see you today . I'm like , who is this person ? I'm not seeing them anywhere . What's happening ?

So very quickly , my radar went up within that and luckily , I was in a very rural community too , and so one of the things I want to be really clear about is , if I was a different gender , a different race , if I didn't hold a position of like ownership of a business in my community , if it was a big city , if he and I were the same gender , any of

these things were different , I don't know if I would be sitting here today . I'd like to think I would be , but we all know there's a good chance I wouldn't be , especially not in 2011 .

But I had a friend who I could call , who worked with the police sometimes and stuff like that , and I talked to my friend and I told him the stalker's name and he's you need to go to the cops right now . This guy has a history of stalking in the community .

He does , unfortunately , have a mental health diagnosis and , to be clear , not all stalkers have a mental health diagnosis , but he does happen to have a very rare form of schizophrenia that has manifested into stalking .

So I would go to the police and because the police knew who Jeffrey was and that's the name we're going to use for the stalker they knew who Jeffrey was . They were able to start explaining things to me and let me know that he does this for short spurts of time how to keep myself safe .

Talking to me about changing up my pattern , which is really hard in a small town when there's basically one main road and you work at the business on it . Talking about keeping evidence logs so logging everything that Jeffrey would send me and that's once again , ownership on the victim to keep that evidence .

And with stalking and with domestic violence as well , you are your own investigator , you are your own detective , you are your own collector of that evidence , because if you don't have that evidence to turn over , they have nothing to build on . And so I really just educated myself .

There was such little information out there about stalking online at the time , but I just tried to educate myself because , for me , when everything feels like chaos , the more I can know about my situation .

That's just , for me , a little bit more empowering , and so I kept giving over my evidence and doing all of those things , and they would actually end up prosecuting him in 2012 and he would plead down to misdemeanor harassment . It's a very long story . I'm giving you a very short version , sure sure .

So he would serve a year in jail and I thought , okay , great , this is over , I'll move on to his next victim . I feel bad for them but we're done here . And unfortunately I wasn't .

He continued after he got out of jail to not directly threaten me , because I had protection orders , but to do it in a more nuanced ways , where he would write letters about me and send them to law enforcement and prosecutors and all sorts of people , and he always knew how to skirt the line just right , which is very common with stalking .

They know how to walk a very fine line , and so time would go on with this . There'd be times I would run into him , things like that , and maybe he would leave because I have this protection order .

But it was that unknown variable of where would he go , and that was the part that was so challenging for me , especially with these letters that he was writing . He would write about all these different ways in which I should be murdered , and very graphic and descriptive ways .

This was becoming not only a psychological threat to me but a very physical threat to me , and so , as time went on at that time I had good support from friends , but I was very quiet about it in my community because we still you and I were just talking about , we didn't have the understanding around stalking .

So if I would tell someone about it I'd be like , oh , that's not a big deal , you're overreacting . And , to be clear , I've also experienced many other forms of gender-based violence , starting from the age of three years old . So I would have people like , oh , you've experienced a lot of other stuff , so you're just very reactive .

And in hindsight , one of my friends who works in the violence prevention field , she read my book and she's honestly , I think every trauma you've experienced in gender-based violence from the age of three is what saved your life and made you so aware that this was a problem .

I couldn't sleep all night I was staring out the window . So then I'm hoping my business late . And so from the outside , my community thought oh , this girl just doesn't care about her business . And , trust me , I had no trust fund or anything like that when I started this gallery , so this was my everything . So I just , and I didn't have the language .

So eventually I closed my business . It was humiliating , embarrassing . I don't feel like I did it in a real upstanding way ,

but I did it . I got through it and have made my apologies over the years for just becoming an ostrich who ducked her head in the sand , and time would go on . I stayed in my community because I really loved it . I went to work for a high-end lumber company as their marketing director , which seems like a really big jump from gallery owner .

And yet there's the obvious reason . I sat in a room with a bunch of old lumberjacks who had concealed carry permits and were older , and I felt safe there , you know . And so eventually I would decide to leave Washington and relocate , and that decision really came .

I'm from Ohio originally and my father was diagnosed with cancer and we knew it was not going to be a long battle .

So my boss gave me a leave of absence from the lumber company and I went to Ohio and was with my mom as we walked my father through that process and in that short timeframe of my father passing away , eventually , within about nine weeks , I was the family errand runner . I was the family .

I was always running around town picking up the things we needed , whatever it might be , and I started to realize how even the smallest things that I was doing while in Ohio were things that were plagued with fear when I was in Washington . Jeffrey loved to be at the grocery store , so going to the grocery store was a huge challenge for me .

I'd go to the one out of town , I'd go at different hours . So here I am in Ohio and I can go to the grocery store without fear . I would take a little walk on my parents' trails at night and I hadn't walked alone in the dark in years or I'd go into town and meet a friend for dinner Same thing . I'd park my car and walk two blocks without fear .

And so , in this really tragic loss of my father , I got to actually see what freedom looked like and went back to Washington with this knowledge that I was going to have to go . And I spent some time thinking about that and ended up moving here to Vermont and thought , okay , great , I can disappear , it's all good . And that didn't really work out .

As I said , jeffrey began to message me again and there's just so many messages and they're so chaotic and they would come in just like flying in one after another and I'm here and I don't really know anybody and it's terrifying .

And eventually he got to the point where he said he would come to Waitsfield , vermont , to be with me , which is the town where I live . I never posted that publicly anywhere .

I kept filing reports with him and it took a really long time but eventually a prosecutor . This is getting really like legally nuanced so I'm going to skip over that part .

But eventually , when they did research into where all the messages he was sending me were from coming from , they weren't coming from my county I originally lived in Washington , which would be Jefferson . They were coming from the next county over Clalem County , washington .

This prosecutor picked up the case and he was like I know that stalking is impossible to prove , but I'm going to go for this and I'm going to go big .

It took us two years of building that case and just it was massive to get there and there's , like I said , a lot of legal nuances behind it and we're doing all the trial prep me here in Vermont , them in Washington .

I had an advocate here in Vermont who worked with me to really encourage me and get me there , and then I got on a plane and flew back to Washington and testified for a day and a half .

It was a very intense experience , especially because Jeffrey opted to defend himself , which is legally allowable , so he defended himself , which means not only is he objecting every time I open my mouth , he also then got to cross-examine me , and I think it's really important that people understand that stalkers and abusers will use the criminal justice system to be

able to talk to their victims , because if we have these protection orders and I've got several protection orders against them , including a lifetime one that's how they can legally speak to us . Right , and he did that to me several times in Washington , or once in Washington as well , where he tried to get a protection order revoked .

So I had to go to the court and I had to speak to him , and it's just . It's something that is really horrible about our criminal justice system is that they can do that , but also they have legal rights too . It's such a hard one . I try and hold that balance of well , that is his human right as well .

How is it that you know I found and not trying to hijack and make this about me at all , but there was just so many things that just resonated with me that you were saying , because I felt that my attacker , he was a white man and he was a military man . I'm a gay man in the South , he is a picture perfect Southern and I'm everything the South hates .

And so he had even confessed that he originally had told the police that I sexually propositioned him and that's why he did what he did . That led to murder . They took him through McDonald's drive-thru , they stopped and got him a pack of cigarettes , all while my body is still missing somewhere and thinking that they were thinking I was dead right .

And then in court he confessed that he knew that if he said that , they would go easy on him no handcuffs or nothing . And so I was like how did he have more protection and rights than I do ?

And if it had been different law enforcement , different judges , different prosecutors , any step of the way , it'd be very different .

If I had gone in there and I didn't have the name of that person who I called that first day , who told me to go to the police , who also held a position to power my community , how would I have been perceived so I was able to come in there as a confident young female business owner who hadn't dated him .

I had all of those things and yet still because 2011 , we still had little information about stalking . There was still a lack of resources and they actually did tell me to go to the advocacy center in my town , but I optically was like that's for domestic and sexual violence . Where does stalking fit in ?

Now I tell anybody because I get a lot of emails I'm like go to your advocacy center immediately . That's your first place to go . I know it doesn't say stalking on their side , but they handle stalking as well , and I think that's really important .

I know that , with my case being out of the norm than what that my community is used to , and I still have people writing me telling me that their mind had changed on so many things that they didn't think about things I had no idea of what would be available to me until it happened .

And then I'm relying on someone else to tell me what's out there , because we don't wake up one day and think what if I'm stalked today ? What if I'm a victim of a hate crime today ? What if someone ? What if I'm on a morning jog and someone pulls me into the woods ?

We don't think that way and with the state of mind that I had brain injuries , I got down to 98 pounds . I barely recognized who my family members were , and that legitimately . And so to think , to call that state advocacy center . My mind would never have worked that way and we start making these resources known before someone needs them .

reach . It just keeps that ripple going out , and I think that's the biggest thing is we're the pebble and we just need that ripple to keep going and we need people like my business is called stand up resources . We need people to stand up beside us and we need people to be putting that information out there .

Whether they think it makes them uncool , I don't care . I think you're a lot cooler for doing that and it's just continuously doing that following . If you're for your listener , follow the advocacy center in your area on Instagram , do that and don't be hesitant to share those resources that are coming out . And I think that you speak to something that's so true .

When we're in that place of trauma , we are not thinking clearly , we are not seeing things , we cannot understand what's being told to us . I always encourage law enforcement advocacy centers to have very clear printed , very easy to read .

I also do trauma informed graphic design , which is very nuanced , so I'm very big into trauma informed literature that can be handed to us when we're in that place so that we're not just counting on our ears to hear what those people are advising to us .

We've got something concrete we can look at and start to follow through and that it really takes into account a brain injury . It takes into account our trauma processing . It takes into account those things We've got so far to go . But just those really small things can make a world of difference .

And while we're talking , I'm going to look up their social handle because I know it , but I want to make sure I know it before I say it ?

Is people saying I want to share these things , I want to wear these t-shirts , but I'm afraid that as soon as I do and I'm walking with my husband through the local grocery store and it says surviving abuse , are they going to think he's abusing me and not realize that maybe it's just an ally shit .

Maybe it's just me trying to target that one person that needs to see it . And I understand that , because there's so much forgive me , but there's so much shit that comes .

And if you talk about or if you research , if you watch a documentary , and someone sees that you're watching a documentary or something on that , then they think that you're a victim of that and that your husband or your spouse or partner is that bad guy , or that your mom or dad did

something , and so it makes people want to not talk about it because they don't want to project that they're going through or went through something . Do you have anything that you could help me say to people that could maybe help change that mindset ?

So it's , I think , it's us , and one of the biggest things I think is really important , and I've seen over the last years that чтобы أب muốn أن نراك , لم نراك أن هو مقدير النوب .

I think that , with the last president that we had and the really horrific language around treatment of women and people that we saw , and treatment of all people really that are white and male identifying , we all got a lot louder . That's what I started to notice is , ever since 2016, .

These conversations that we were having real quietly , with the whisper , we're talking about a little bit more . I can be sitting at my local bar with a friend having a drink and we are not whispering about this stuff anymore . We're talking about it and doing that .

There's other people listening in and I think that's a huge part of it is normalizing these conversations and not shying away from them , and that can be such a big thing in and of itself . To that person who may not want to wear the t-shirt , but normalizing these conversations , saying , hey , I was watching this documentary and this is this thing I learned .

Or I was listening to this podcast and did you know that 13 million people in our country are stocked every year ? But it's just talking in that way that we're not hiding this , and that , to me , is such an important component , because the louder we are , the more educating we do , the more people who are going to come forward .

And that's something that's always really important to me is , if I'm on a college campus or I'm on a military base , I want their report numbers to go up after I've left , because we know those things are happening there . So that's a big thing for me is just , we got to normalize it , however , we feel comfortable doing so .

so thank you for that . But yeah , so if anybody there's a survivor or an ally out there that has a suggestion of something that they would feel comfortable wearing or presenting or doing , let me know , because just reaching that one person can really change everything for them .

It's awesome and that's a really good place to go to just to like . It's such a simple concept . It's three words start by believing right and that right . There is such a big thing .

And when I look back through all of this from the first years where I was so quiet , it was because , other than my very close people , if I whispered this , I was not met with belief . I was met with . What did you do ? How did this happen ? Couldn't you have done something differently ? What if this , what if that ?

But if I had been met with , hey , I believe you . I'm so sorry this is happening . How can I support you ? Totally different .

People would write me or even see me out in public and say I'm so sorry this happened to you , but hopefully this taught you less and did not take someone home . And that's not what happened .

And when I remember , when I was in group therapy that I was telling you about and one of the this big , burly , alpha , straight male , when I was talking , touched my hand , he said David , I believe you . And it changed everything and I'm getting

teary I think about it now . That was seven years ago . Like it changed those words and so I actually made I had a moment remembering that a few months ago I made a little TikTok video about this is a safe place and I believe you , because I think that's so important to hear .

And that's continuing to take that power away from the person who's sitting in victimhood . And the way we get to survivorship is by making our own choices and making our own decisions and taking back any little bit of control and power we have .

And so that's so important to me as well is , if someone discloses to you , to , yes , do exactly what that guy did , take a hand or whatever , and start by believing .

And so I try to be very calculated on my questions and trying to make them second , because I don't think people mean harm by these questions . It does hurt when you're in that vulnerable place , when it brings that doubt , when you've lost that control , when there's no safe place anymore . Like you , like this was happening at your job .

I should feel safe at my job . You should feel safe at your job . This was your business , your baby that you should have . That should have been an amazing , blissful place for you , and it was stolen , which means your bed or your bed where you lay your head down to get your rest , your home , that thinking is that window locked , is that blind , closed ?

This is your home , and now you're a stranger living in your own home and it's . I hate it . I hate it , but I'm so glad to hear what you've done and what you're doing . I feel like I could talk to you all day . But what I would love- .

I almost allow each chapter to trigger me to a different memory from my past . So interwoven throughout the book is just these plopped in other stories , because that's how triggers work . Right , you hear a song and you're back in this moment . So I allowed that book to do that .

Some of those triggers are good , some of them are not good , so it really covers a lifetime course of gender-based violence , and I start each chapter off with a different stalking fact as well , so that we can really learn more about stalking as we're hearing this story , because , before we start recording this , I don't like to answer the voyeuristic questions and I

like to point to that educational place wherever I can , and I really feel I'll just read the last . I'll read the back of my book , because I think it's really for me what this book is about . I write Now , I Speak , now I Give Over the Words . It's not that there is anything particularly significant about my life .

I've experienced what countless others have experienced a lifetime of gender-based violence , which , for me , happened to be at the hands of men . I'm not special , I'm not unique . I am set apart in the fact that I have the privilege to share my story when millions of others cannot .

My only hope is that my words will allow others to not only have a voice but have a life , and that , for me , is the point that , yeah , so it's available on the Amazons and all of that , and your listeners can't see the cover , but it has white sunglasses on it , and in my background you see a lot of white sunglasses .

So throughout the story , by the end , you realize why I have hundreds of pairs of white sunglasses . Oh , I love that .

So I do have a fun little question for you , but since we do have a couple more minutes left , I would like to get your opinion before the fun question on how you feel about protection and restraining orders , because I feel as if there's an unspoken one for everybody in the world . Anyways , right , don't come to my house and sign about you .

Don't touch my body unless I ask you to . If I give you permission to touch my body in five , 10 , 20 minutes later , I don't care how long I tell you to get out , you don't , then that's assault , right . And so I had that mindset of this . Restraining order doesn't mean anything to me , it didn't provide me with anything .

And then I was interviewing someone who has now become a great friend and she said how I think of it . David is . It was validation , that people believed me , and I was like , oh , that changed everything . So that's pretty much how I felt . Okay , I was gonna ask what's your ?

It wasn't three years , it was only two years . So he was fine . So I had to go back to court and in Washington state , like many other states , the offender gets to stand right next to you while you're standing in front of the judge , and the judge her name's Judge Landis . We've become very good friends now that she's retired . Just an absolute amazing human .

She took accountability . She was just like I'm so sorry , we messed up here , which is really big , like we all mess up at our jobs , and so some clerk , whoever it was , miss filed it , and within the legal system , that's really hard to take accountability . And she did . And I was just like cool , all right , you know what ? Let's not deal with this again .

Here's a lifetime protection order . And I was like , ooh , all right , okay .

It still stayed with the lifetime protection order , but she changed it from 500 feet to 150 miles . Now that's some validation .

evidence they go in with and I am obsessed with you and I'm obsessed with you .

But we did get some great news the day before my birthday , because I was terrified that we were gonna get this bad news on my birthday . And that was gonna be what I remembered every birthday . And then my cat that had been missing for two months came home two days before my birthday and I was like , oh my God , this is the best birthday ever , yeah .

And . But unfortunately we had to put my baby down . On Monday she came home and she had liver failure and was just miserable and we did everything we could . But the vet like their yelp review that I'm leaving them because she is amazing , she was .

She said so many animals go away to pass , but yours came home to pass with you and that shows you how much she loves you and she knows how much you love her . And I was like you probably have to say that to everybody , but that is the best thing I've heard I was thinking that as well .

But the point of me saying all that is I've had a rough week and I was looking forward to getting into some projects , staying productive and keeping my mind off things , but this has been such a great gift , so thank you for that , miss Anna .

Thank you so much , david , yeah , so the fun question that I have for you is with your books , with your story , with all the things , all the awareness that you're bringing , all the resources you're providing , there's gonna be a movie about you one day . Who would you see playing you the best ?

I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our incredible guests for sharing their transformative journey with us today .

to go on to the end . I'm rolling down just to begin again . I can't be any longer . I'm back .