Ammy Jacobson, Welcome to the podcast.
How are you going all the better for.
Submitting my book to the Sea and Publisher as you yesterday morning.
It's exciting times, right, It's like it's like Bertie in.
Your base Cities.
And actually I submitted it yesterday and got an email from my edited last night, and then it just kind of helped me able to sitt the airport had done an old day rockshop, and I was just like, ah, do you know.
You know what, though, when I simitted my second book, I think I think I'd put all of the pressure on that submission date, and once I did it, it was that absolute relief. But then you go into the editing process and you forget just how intense that is as well. It's fun, it's absolutely fun.
But oh yeah, it looks like I'm fine with that.
I was.
It was the deadline and mine was tight.
Because I'd also submitted my PhD about a month ago, so it was juggling to friggin things at the same time. So I don't know whether I'm Arthur or Martha at the minute. So if I go wibble in the middle of this podcast.
You know why.
We're not here that is a poor example of emotional intelligence. There for me right now, I was starting a podcast with someone on emotional intelligence and talking about myself.
So you are an expert on emotional intelligence.
You've written two books now I on emotional intelligence.
Your second one is going to be out very very soon. So tell our listener.
Look, firstly, what inspired you to get into this area and to write.
Not one, but two books on emotional intelligence.
The mind, like, people's minds have always fascinated me, and I think, you know, for as far as I can go back, I was more fascinated to begin with with the I think I guess the bad side in the mind. I was really into criminology forensics to think, how can some people's minds be so messed up? And look, the more I played in that area, I realized I just can't switch off. I will not be able to switch off and sleep at night diving deep into these areas.
So I kind of parked it for a while, but always had that fascination and eventually it came back through, you know, from like from my career in the corporate world, just seeing how much of an impact different people had on situations and how people responded and you know, the impact that they had on performance, the impact that had on relationships, on success. So I started to dive deeper into Okay, well, how do we leverage the mind in a good way, in a really great way to be
able to improve situations? So I started to do all of my studies in that side. And what led me to take it further and to write the books was the just the absolute lack of understanding that was out there. And you know, it's because a lot of the data that's out there it's very science y, which is which is fantastic, right, it's so intriguing, but it's also quite hard to take the scientific work and simplify it or actually apply it to your day to day to say, okay,
that's great, but how do I actually grow this? How do I improve? I know what's causing it, but how do I take control of it? So for it all kind of started and absolutely love it. I get to meet the most incredible people on my path, and it still astounds me that everybody's mind just works so differently and the impact that you can have on the outcome simply by the weight of your mind.
Now that leads into the next question, So is you know the old question or leaders born or me?
Is emotional intelligence genetic or learned?
Or I'm guessing it's a bit of a mix, But what's the right answer.
It absolutely is, Yeah, it is a mixture. The way that I look at emotionally intelligence is I think that the first mistake we make is we think that people are either emotionally intelligent or they're not. And I don't agree with that. I think that emotionally intelligence is a skill the same as all the other skills that we learn in life, and some of us are born naturally with more skill in that area. But can we develop it?
Absolutely we can. But I think at never, at any point in time would I call somebody emotionally intelligent because I think, you know, every situation happens and we've got a choice to make. We can either choose to respond in an emotionally intelligent way or choose not to. So while some people have that natural skill come to them, and a lot of people don't actually know what it is, and they kind of search to find out why they've got it, why other people don't. It's a skill, so
it can be taught. Is it easy? No? But can you build your emotional intelligence over time by building the skill and applying it and continuing to apply it and building those neural pathways in your mind. Yes, you absolutely can.
Look, I just realized we haven't actually properly defined it. So let's and I think most people kind of get it right.
But what is the.
Kind of gold standard definition or just your definition? I mean, is there is there a widely accepted definition that's out there or is it?
Yeah, they tend to differ a bit. I guess the most accepted one out there is about emotionally intelligence is the ability to manage your own emotions and to manage the impact you have on the people around you. I dive a little bit deeper into that, and I think that emotional intelligence is the how and why what we do. So what you can do and what you know and you can do, that's your IQ. But the how and why you actually do it, that's your equ or your
emotional intelligence. And it's really it's understanding the way that your mind is tipped and your mind ticks, and it's working with it rather than against it. So knowing, Okay, this is my natural wiring, this is how it works for me, So how do I be a better person or how do I be the best person I can possibly be based on how my mind is wired, what those neural pathways actually.
With springs up a couple of questions from me, and you may or may not know the answer to this. So in terms of let's take neuro divergent people and particularly who are on the autism spectrum, who often have difficulty with emotions, difficulty recognizing emotions, any research around that and the impact on their emotional intelligence, and then if they use strategies to learn emotional intelligence that I'll give you that first one and they'll last the second one.
Yeah, beautiful. So there's two different things in play here. I think that when I speak emotionally intelligence, I think we have to separate that from neurodiversity as well, because I think that's in a slightly different area. That really does come down to, you know a lot of areas around your genetics and the way that you are actually wired.
Does it impact it? Yes, absolutely so. If you have somebody like you said that is on the autism spectrum, they are going to struggle more with emotional intelligence and their levels are going to be different. And I think that to approach to approach it in the same way that you would approach somebody else and expect them to be able to learn and build their skills, I think is unrealistic. I think that, you know, it needs to
be a slightly different approach there. So when I'm speeding about emotional intelligence, and I'm more talking about you know, if you go with that eighty twenty rule and more going with those people that don't have those neurodiverse challenges or that side totally.
And then so people who have had adverse childhood experiences that then significantly shape their brain and how they process emotions, and presumably that can have an impact on their emotional intelligence because you know, their brands then become ship around maybe one or two particular emotions, anything that you've seen on that and whether that is an inhibitor of them optimizing their emotional intelligence or can they navigate around it if they're aware of it.
Look, it is a big blocker or limits because when you think about emotional intelligence, it stems from those neural pathways, and those neural pathways are defined by our values, our beliefs, our experience as our habits. So if you have somebody who has had quite a traumatic experience or has had quite a pivotal moment in their life that has created a neural pathway that is so deeply embedded it absolutely is going to impact the mind is going to naturally
default to those areas. Is it something that they can work with? Yes, I do believe that it is. Again, is it easy. No, You've got to have that first step of awareness right, and you've got to be able to dig in deep to understand the neural pathway that exists, the triggers that are actually attached to the beginning of that neural pathway, and also the emotions that are attached to the trigger and the neural pathway. Once you start to understand that, then you can dive deeper into being
able to I guess, rewire that neural pathway. And we know that that is possible to rewind new neural pathways, but as I said, it takes a lot of commitment and a lot of work to be able to process and go through it.
So yeah, the reason that I asked that question, I was running a workshop yesterday, an Old Day workshop, and was talking about those early life experiences and how they shape our brain, but then also talked about neuroplasticity, and with self awareness and self regulation, how you can then change the wiring work of your AMIG dealer, right, because we do have that enormous neuroplasticity. But as you say,
it's about doing the work right. There's no emotional intelligence fairy that you can just or a program you can diwnload from the internet just yet.
Oh no, Look, that's my disclaimer every time I run a program is you would not leave this room emotionally intelligent. I wish that's how it worked out. Yeah, Unfortunately, it doesn't the same as reading a book. Right, reading my book, as great as it is, we're not going to make you emotionally intelligent. It's the work that you do afterwards with the information that you get.
So, given that you've written a book on EI and leadership and one on personal give us the impact that emotional intelligence has. One in the workplace and from a leadership perspective, and then just two from an everyday individual going about my general life perspective.
Yeah. So to start with the personal side, we know that your emotionally intelligence is it's how you act, it's how you impact the people around you. Now, it is usually from a personal point of view a little bit more intense, given that when we're around people where we feel safe and where we feel trusted, we tend to we tend to bring out the worst in this because we feel safe. So our emotional intelligence usually isn't as strong around those people that we feel safe in around
because we kind of let down our guard. And it's that whole thing in the mind where the mind makes choices based on the potential consequences. Right, so what do I send to gain versus what do I send to lose in this situation, the emotional intelligence when we look in those personal relationships and conversations, especially with the people that we live with, we find that that emotional brain drives a lot more often than our logical brain does.
So it is in play, our subconscious minds in play, our egos in play, which drives our opinions, which then
shows those differences in there. So to manage your emotional intelligence and develop your emotional intelligence for your personal side is going to directly impact direct your relationships with the people that you live with, with your family, with your friends, the people you surround yourself with, because it's going to change communication and it helps us to get out of our own head and actually realize it's not always about us.
So from a personal side, some of the impacts that I've heard, you know, I've run, I've run programs within organizations where we've gone into actually help the organization, but had people contact me later to say this is actually totally safe my marriage, like this is this has made me realize that, you know that I'm not being emotionally intelligent when I'm listening to my partner, that I am making it about me that you know, maybe they are
right when they say I don't listen. So the impact can have a huge, a huge change to your life. So on your relationships are from the personal side, if we just before, because.
I actually I actually want to dive into that because it's interesting what you say that that that you know, with with those people, particularly with the ones that we live with, we kind of let our guard down a little bit. And I think everybody relates to that, right They talk differently to the people at home, yeah.
Than they do to people at work.
So does that suggest then that emotional intelligence is really not that innate and that it's something that we need to really be conscious around. If our natural bent is to just not be that emotionally intelligent, you know where it's that animal instinct inness that's more about fucking me, me, me, and what are you doing to me?
Exactly if you think about it, right, if you think about our mind does what it does, like it makes its choices, it says what it is. It does the things we do because it believes that it's the right way to do it. So we do the things that we do when we're stuck in our own mind and we say, what's in this for me? How will I benefit from this? And that's what you're kind of looking at,
how will this make me feel? So when you're around other people that you feel safe around and they do something different or they have a different opinion, or they're coming from a different angle, the mind kind of gets disrupted and thinks, well, hang on a second. If they're doing a friend the mirror of they've got a different opinion to me, what is that trying to tell me about my way of doing it? In my opinion because like, clearly I'm right, like I do it this way because
it's the right way. It's not rocket scides, just do it my way. So when we're fronted with people that don't do it the same way. That don't that aren't thinking about how we're feeling constantly. It is kind of that disruptor. And because we feel so safe in that environment, we have that that emotional hijack or that amindala hijack right where we just think, oh, we haven't got much to lose here. They love us. It's not like they're you know, we're going to lose our whole relationship or
anything just over me saying one thing. So we just snap and we come straight up from our emotional mind. And it's that it's that need to be right, and we've wired that into ourselves with this whole world is based on being right, right, doing the right thing, being right, getting ahead because you've you know, you've got enough ticks
or you've got the right answers. So it's not that when we do feel safe in front of people, we will lower our god, we will be more selfish, we will think about it more from our point of view, we will stay more stuck in our head and be thinking about our feelings.
And for us, it is kind of how the human brand works, right, is that we perceive reality, perceive reality through our personal lands and and and really deep down in your Brian, in the chimp briand the emotional brand.
It's just me, me, me, me.
Me, And we need to learn strategies. And I think, as you rightly say, when you're around people that you feel safe and secure with you're you're you're more likely to be that natural decad pot, right.
That's right, It just comes straight out because it's kind of I guess it's that it's that old, you know, challenge or question that says, you know, when we do things, when we do things for charity, do we actually do them for the people to benefit or do we do them because it makes us feel like a good person. Do we do things for our kids because you know they benefit from it, or do we do it because
it makes us feel like a good parent. We are constantly striving, naturally defaulting to be the best person we can be. But from it's from an egotistical reflection, right is yeah, So the more comfortable we are, we're going to let that happen where you put us into an environment where we're not as safe, it's not as comfortable, then we are a little bit more aware of it because the consequence can do so much time.
And yet and judgment of others that we don't know, right, that we don't have credits with and strive.
So we're on our best behavior.
So let's not skip to the workplace and just individual to individual within the workplace the impact of emotional intelligence, and then from a leadership perspective, because I think probably lots of people who are listening to us will have had leaders or no co workers who are not that sharp in this area, and another ones who have had co workers and leaders who are cracking in this area.
Yeah, I'd even add a third angle to it to Paul, is that you've what I noticed most of all is when I go into organizations, you've got the levels of emotional intelligence between individuals as you said, and their interactions, and then between the leaders. But then you've also got the external emotional intelligence because a lot of the time when we're looking externally to our customers, to our clients, to our community, to whoever we're kind of serving through
that organization, we tend to do emotional intelligence well. Then, but when we look internally, we're really not. We look for right right, because you feel safer because when you're speaking with customers direct, you've got more of a risk that either a stranger, but they could make a complaint, it could impact your job where you feel like you've got more fighting you to or you're seeing more on even path with those people internally, so you kind of
drop that that little bit. Now, those internal relationships are probably where we see some of the poorest emotional intelligence.
And again that is because the longer you've been there, and if you kind of picture somebody that goes into an organization, into a new workplace, those first couple of months, you kind of like on your best behavior, right, and then the more comfortable you get, the more you get to know people, the more opinions you make on the people around you, as well as when you start to bring that emotional money into play and you start to drop that logical brain and you start to drop your
emotional intelligence in situations so that that self cided start of our mind starts to drive a little bit more so your emotional intelligence one hundred percent. It influences and it impacts your culture. So any workplace that you're going to walk into, if it has a great culture, it is because the emotional intelligence is high, or the emotional
intelligence is very well managed. And noticed where you walk into a toxic workplace, you walk into places where you've got people in conflict or you know, underperformance or people
in wrong jobs. And that's when we know that the emotional intelligence is lacking and it's just not there because the right conversations are tough conversations are not being had, the honesty is not happening, the you know, the decency to be able to get out of your own head and understand what other people are going through and what they're being impacted, how you're impacting them. That's that's the impact of emotionally intelligence.
Doctor seem to me that see if the insecurity is the saboteur of emotional intelligence, Well, that's.
What I say.
Right, every single time you make a choice, your mind is going to weigh up and say what do I seem to gain from this? What do I tend to lose?
That is completely aligned.
To the integrate model of the way the brain marks by the brit Sciences Institute, and they say that the core twin motivations of everybody is to minimize the injer or threat and maximize reward. Right, And it's that constant evaluations going on right. Very interesting now, let's not talk about your framework, right, So you have a framework around emotional intelligence and five different things own it, fiace it, feel it, askt drive it.
So let's take each one of those in turns. So firstly, own it. What do you mean by own it.
When it comes to emotional intelligence.
Yeah, so, Paul, if I could sum up emotional intelligence in two words, it would be own it. Own It is about owning who you are. It's about owning the values and beliefs that you've made in your life that are driving and driving those decisions to get you where you are. It's about owning how well you manage your own emotions, Owning the impact you have on the people around you. Owning reality, Owning the fact that sometimes things
will happen and you have no control over it. But you've got to own the reality and that this is happening. Whether I like it or not, this is happening, and I can try to be in denial, but in order to move forward, I have to own the reality of the situation. And I have to own my own self awareness and the role that I play in it. So
that ownership is heavily around your self awareness. But it's so much more than that, it's about really owning your own definition of success, owning your purpose, owning while you get out of bed every morning, owning what is driving you to kind of hit that happiness level or what you truly believe is happiness. So you've got to start with owner. You have to understand how you are wired and what is driving you and what your kind of what you're head into wars like what does what is that?
What is that enoughness that you're looking for in your life.
It seems to me that that's quite aligned with Victor Frankel and the last of human freedoms? Right?
Is that the he said, and that came out of is Fits.
For those who don't know it, Victor Frankl was a Jew psychiatrist who was imprisoned in Fits and a couple of other concentration camps. But but realize through that process, he said, mine can take from you everything, your dignity, your pride, your belongings, your loved ones, everything but one thing, your ability to choose how you react to your circumstances. And that's that that seems to play into this.
It does. It is around that choice. And I'm a big believer in you know we are where we are in life based on those choices, and I think it's it's one of the to me, it's that real hit you, light bulb moment when you when you're working on your emotional intelligent because it's so easy for our mind to blame other people, to say, well, this is happening because they did this, or you know, the world is like this,
or this happened. But at the end of the day, you've you've got to own the fact that you've made choices throughout that period as well, and the choices that you've made have actually led to it, and you've got to own the role that you're playing in it because you always have that choice, and you know, without that without that level of awareness, without that ownership to say, Okay, I'm going to take some of this blame on here because it is actually me, Like you know, maybe maybe
it's not everyone around me, Maybe I am the problem with myself, maybe I am my own worst enemy. And also, as I said, it's it's not just that self area, it's that realization too that things are going to happen around you and you have no control over it. You cannot control any other person. You cannot control the situation. You can only control how you choose to res spond. But you have to own the reality that once something has happened, it's happened.
Like move on, move on into the stoic zooms of control, right and focusing on that which you can control. Jocko Williams would love you this old idea of extreme ownership. And so let's let's talk to the second one after own it is fierce it So what do you mean by that?
Yeah, so, face it was still in our own head. So I don't own it is when we're in our own head. Face it was still in our own head. And this is when all of the emotions start to come into play. Right, So when we've got to the point that we've owned the fact that, oh gosh, actually it is me and I am having an impact on this, I am playing a role, or own the fact that this is happening around us. This face, it is when
all of these emotions start to come up. And they might be it might be fear, it might be angry, it might be upset, it might be excitement, it might be loved, it might be happy in this whatever it is. But at this point in time, the emotional brain is just going to send forth all of these emotions and you might go through hundreds of emotions in relation to this. But the face it is about the fact that your emotions are actually your emotions occur for a reason and
you have to face them. To not face your emotions, to kind of ignore them, or to put a lid on them and push them down and just hope that they go away, is never going to help with those emotions and it's never going to help with you moving forward.
So in this face zone, it is all about understanding how these emotions are coming into play, what is actually driving them, But how do I face them and process them and clear them inable to move on rather than them compounding and building up, because if you have that compounding a pressure, Yeah, and usually at.
The worst.
Exactly right, it's I always like to say, I don't know if I don't know if you read it, Paul, but you know, when I was younger, there's there's a book for the young kids who sank the boat, and it's it's all of these animals. It's kind of like, you know, you've got a war for a jetty and a little dinghy at the end, and they walk all the animals down and they're getting based on size like your horse furst and your cow in your sheep and
et cetera. And the boat is floating until the little mouse jumps on and then the boat sinks, and it's like it's like sometimes we're sitting in front of somebody and they're absolutely blowing up, like the pressure cooker has exploded, and we're thinking, how like this is not that big a deal, but we don't realize it was all those other animals compounding and compounding that just kind of created the boom or the right.
So let's move on to the next one.
We talked about owning it, and we've talked about fiercing it. Now let's talk about feel it.
Okay, So feel it is when we get out of our own heads so they own it and face that. Once you're through those two steps, you realize, okay, I'm okay with this, I've owned it, I've faced my emotions. Now you get out of your own head and you start to think, how are the people around me feeling? So this is when your empathy kicks in. This is your ability to say, okay, it's no longer about me.
I'm okay, how are they feeling? And this is when we start to understand and you know, know that other people are not failed versions of us that other people, you know, will it be wired different, they'll have different responses. And this is not where judgment comes into play. This is looking to understand their wiring and you know, what they're bringing to the table, and to help them get through it. It's about empowerment and as I said, it's
about empathy. It's about understanding their strengths, the roles that they play, and it's also understanding how you impact them as well. So what does things look like from their point of view, from their side, from the way that they are feeling.
Curiosity please a huge rule here, isn't it? And it's understanding that we will often just jump to judgment of others. But if we're to actually sit back and be curious and go, that's an interesting response, like where did that come from?
Right? And you know, is that something in that person?
But is that something that I said or the way that I actually said it? And I guess this one it feels to me like is probably easier to practice and get better at quicker than the previous two right.
Yeah, yeah, so face it is by far the toughest part of emotional intelligence, Like controlling your emotions is the toughest side because you're working against the science of the
mind right the way which we're wired. But when you get to this point and feel it, there are small one percent is that you can put in place so quickly, but it's it's also being on the sit and understand how other people are, how other people approach things, and that is it's easier because it's knowledge that you're taking on and learning from it. But you're not having to rewire anything within yourself. You're not you're not having to rechange habits or long term imbedments where this is okay,
I get it now. And at this stage, you know, I see some people literally like their faces just drop and go oh now, I get it, now, I get it. That's why you know, when I'm going to this person and I'm giving a really short, sharp communication, they're coming back at me with questions and want to see details and statistics and research. That's why it's not because they're questioning my ability or my credibility or what I'm telling them. It's the fact that they learn through information. Their mind
requires more data. It's more data driven where mine is very big picture, high level.
And I think it's kind of helpful here.
And it's going back to what you said about our kind of view of the world is shaped by our belief systems, our experiences or emotions.
And stuff like that.
And I find it it's really helpful for people.
To understand that your brain is a bond's eye, right, and it's running a personalized hallucination of reality, right, and my brain's running a slightly different personalized hallucination of reality. Like anybody who thinks that their view of the world is real is completely demented, right, because that brain is
just a filter that becomes shaped by experience. And I think when you understand that, it kind of really helps this feel it this empathy bit, because and you combine it with curiosity, it's like, ah, okay, right, maybe I shouldn't expect everybody to react the way that I think they should react.
Right, exactly right. I love that bon Si example. It takes me back to Biagi days, right, that you'll never have a Bonzie that is exactly the same. It's all going to look slightly different and depending on the way that you trim it the way that you craft it, it's going to look different again. And yeah, that is very good.
Can be reshiped, right, Yes, that's right, So let's right move on to ask it. So I think it that's about interaction, is it?
Yeah? Yeah, so ask it is about asking the right questions, but it's also more importantly about answering the questions that are being asked of you. So this is where your two way communication comes in. It's where we start to understand that communication is actually not about us. It's one hundred percent about the person receiving the message. And the whole definition around communication is to be able to get
a message from one person through to another. So the EI side of this is when we start to tap in and realize that if we are communicating and the person who we are communicating with is not understanding the message, that's on us, Like we are not communicating in a way that works for that person that they are understanding it. So we cannot just you know, give up and put up a hand and say, well it's done, clearly they
don't understand me. No, Actually, you're going to take responsibility in this how you actually communicating it and it's you know, we dive deeper into that communication because I think if you look at like if we go personal and work right, if you look at any marriage or any relationship that's not working, usually the first thing that's called out communication. If you're looking at one that works really well, first
thing they call out communication. You look at any culture in any environment, and if it's working really well, first thing they call out communication, bad communication. It's it is how human beings interact, and when you have two or more human beings interacting, it is how that interaction happens. The questions that they ask, the listening that they're doing, the answers that they're providing, the back and forth that is going to determine the appect.
I remember going through military training and they always said to us, you can never over communicate clarity, and and I think that's a big part.
Of communication, is not just.
Giving your community, delivering your communication and expecting that it's landed the way that you intended. I think that checking how it's actually landed and checking the understanding of it right and by and by the way, email is shiit house form of communication.
Oh, don't get me startled. In my first book, there's a whole chapter on emotionally intelligency and email. It absolutely kills me.
It does not exist.
I was like, do not do this, But I think, you know, we've got to accept the fact that the way that the world is going in communication is going Verbal communication, unfortunately, is decreasing, and you know, forms of electronic communication are increasing massively. And we've always known that tone and body language is more important than the words
that we use. However, when when we have electronic communication, we've got to start to be aware that tone and body language isn't naturally evident, but the mind still needs it. So the person perceiving it will make it up, and they're going to make it up based on your relationship
the words you use. So you've got it. It's probably even more important with electronic communication to get it right, to know the impacts of the words you're using, to know the impact of you know, whether it's a two line email or.
You're in a rush and you're just far off an email right and don't sit and tick the time to read it and all of that, and that can just line horrible.
Because you're in that conscious mind. And I do it myself, pull I'll see done, and you know, smash out an email and then before I send it, I'll read and I think, oh, Amy, you are completely in your own head right now, like this is all about you. How about you actually say hi? And how about you check in with this person? So it's it's just that it is that environment that we're in that is such a you know, I hate the word busy. It is that
it's in that intense reaction. Everything has to be done now, and everything has to be done at a speed. And when that happens, it's our conscious mind driving it, and a subconscious mind just doesn't come into play very often, and that's where we lose. Like our emotional intelligence is sitting in our subconscious minds. So if we're not engaging that subconscious mind, it's going to be very yeah, very black mind.
Very class one is drive it.
I presumably this is not drive a stick through the heart of the person who's not understanding you.
No, definitely not. But this drive is this is where the rubber hits the road. Right, So you've gone through, you've owned it, you've faced all your emotions, you've got out of your own head, you've understood how the people around you are feeling. You've engaged them in conversation, you've spoken about it and answered the questions. And drive it is the doing part. It's the motivation. So how do you actually take it now? Because I think there's one part.
You know, at times, emotional intelligence can be seen as a soft thing. And drive it is the area that you've got to be decisive and you know what, not everyone's going to agree with you, but you have to be decisive and you have to drive it at some point in time. And when you do drive it, it's
about making sure that you're working smart, not hard. So are you working with the way that the brain is wired, or are you working in a way that you know, there's no denying that you're working hard, but you're achieving nothing because you're just you know, tapping into so many things that you're spending most of your day with your mind having to refocus, refocus, refocus, that you're actually never
hitting that peak performance. So drive it is being able to take things and because unfortunately we're great ideas but not always good at implementing them. So it's been able to take them the way the mind is wired in order to trigger those chemical reactions in our mind that actually give us the motivation and give us the drive to move forward and impact it. Cool.
Let's take all of that and throw it into a couple of scenarios, right, And I want to get the distilled version of you because I think these scenarios people could just go back and listen to what you said and work it out.
But if you kind of put it together.
So in terms of navigating difficult or challenging conversations, are people, what's your kind of strategy for people to use?
Yep, So if we look at that five step process when it comes to difficult conversations and starting with the owner, you have got to own the fact that this conversation needs to happen. So many times we will avoid it at all costs, will sweep it under the carpet, will convince ourselves that oh no, everything's okay now, or you know, it's okay. But you've got to own the fact that this conversation needs to happen and you have to do
it. It's a must thing that you have to do. When we get into the face it the face it is as soon as you accept the fact that, okay, this is happening and I'm going to have to do something about it. This is where the fear kicks in, right, because as human beings like fear of the unknown, fear of not knowing how this person's going to respond in this situation. Are they going to get angry? Are they going to get upset? You know, how are they actually
going to respond? It's the fear of judgment. Are they going to judge me in the way that I deliver it? It is the fear of confrontations.
I was going to say, and there's a lot of people who do not like come from frontiation, right and that this is a shitlold wash.
For them, exactly right. And this is a mistake that we make, Paul, in this area, is that when we don't face these emotions and process them, what we do is the amygdaler gets triggered and we go into fight mode, which means that because that fear is kind of connected in our head and we don't feel completely safe, we arm ourself. And what I say is we over prepare.
We arm ourselves with as much information as we possibly can, so we pull in every stat every report, everything that you know, this person said five years ago that I still haven't gotten over it. And we get it's kind of like, by the time we go into this conversation, we have this huge backpack of ammunition on our back ready to go, and the minute we go into it, it triggers the amigdaler and the other person and they come out fighting as well, because they're fighting for their lives.
So this face it areas where you've got to face those emotions. You've got to process them, You've got to understand that, you know, this conversation is actually not about you, Like, I know you're scared, and I know you don't like confrontation, but this conversation is not about you, and what are
you looking to get out of this conversation. So when we get through that face it and we start to go in to feel it, and we start to think, Okay, how is this person feeling like because a lot of the time, the reason why we're having the conversation is not the real reason why it's happening. So we might be having a conversation because somebody has done something poorly
or said something poorly. But when you actually get out of your own head and you ask the right questions and you empathize and you listen to them, you hear that the problem is actually something way deeper, way deeper than that, and if you just fix the situation, you're putting a band aid on it. You're absolutely just bandating it. So how do you then get to the point where you know? This is where the open questions come in?
Right where you ask, it kicks in and we ask open questions, and just even your standard question, like any difficult conversation, should start with how are you? And a genuine how are you? Because if you're going into a difficult conversation, you find out that that person has just had a morning where they've had to put their pet down. Having conversation right right, because if you're pushing ahead, it shows that you're in your own head and you're doing
this for your sake, not for their sake. You're not doing it for the right outcome. You're doing it to tick the box and say I've done it. I've done what I needed to do. The rest is on them, so feel it and ask It is really about getting that empathy side, understanding it, but asking the really vital question of how do we fix this? And sometimes we've got to ask that question four or five times because their mind will naturally go back into that emotional hijack
of you know, all of those emotions flowing out. We've got to pull them back in and say, but how do we fix this? How do we actually fix this? How do we move forward? And it's not until we can get them to kind of to draw that line in the stand and say, okay, let's go into the fix it mode. Now that then we enter into the drive it and that's where your actions happen. So we've got to go through the process of own it, face it, field,
ask it, to drive it. But by the time we go into the conversation, we should be at feel it, but the other person will probably still be at own it. So we've got to help them to own it. We've got to help them to go through their emotions. We've got to listen to their emotions, we've got to empathize with their emotions. Then we've got to help them to get in to feel it and know, Okay, let's get out of your own head. How is this impacting everything
else around you? Then you help them going to ask it, and then you help them going to drive it. So by the time you get to the end of the conversation, you're on the same page. You've got clear actions, you've got your support there that you're offering them as well to go through it and you go through it together. And that's that wee word, right, like, how do we
fix this? How do we do this together? Rather than being those two people that come into a conversation armed with ammunition ready to fight against Yeah, right, between both of mindalers. Like it's like imber LINKEDNT.
That usually ends the widespread master destruction.
Right, the battle of egos? Right, it's like you are wrong, I am right?
So where where this letter listers?
Or when does the book come out?
It's pretty dumb, soon, isn't it?
It is twenty fifth of June is when it hits all bookstores worldwide. You can find it online, you find it open at the moment. Yep. Yeah, so if if you jump onto Amazon, Amazon has free orders. Are not free pre orders, free orders taking at the moment. So your twenty the Jude is where it will hit all bookstores, airports pretty much.
And what was the name of your first book as well? Let's not forget about the first baby.
Yeah, so the first book. Here's something I prepared earlier. This is the first book. So this is Emotional Intelligence, a simple and actionable guide to increasing performance, engagement and ownership. And as I said that, that's your fundamental basics. And the name of the second book, the name of the second book is the Emotional Intelligence Advantage and it is mastering change and difficult conversation. So it's going to that.
Indeed, and then if people want because you're a keynote speaker as well, so if people want to services, get you come in teach their workplaces how to actually communicate and improve performance and everything along with it.
How do they do that?
Yep? Just jump onto my website which is Amy Jacobson dot com dot au and you'll find all the information there. You can find me on any social media as well, and find my phone number. Pick up the phone and give me a call. I love a chat as you can probably tell.
Let we go. Excellent.
Okay, Amy, thank you for enlightening us.
About emotional intelligence and the fact that we need to own it, face it, feel it, ask it, and drive it.
And I would just encourage the listeners.
Drive yourself to Amazon or Booktopia or whatever it may be and get your order in brilliant.
Thanks