BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts Today's podcast contains references to sexual violence. Some of the content may be triggering for survivors. If you prefer not to listen, then please check out another episode. I know what the music industry is and I know what it's about and it's not about protecting artists. It's about protecting big powerful
men in positions of influence. We've been investigating claims of sexual abuse in the music industry for a couple of months and when I joined the next episode team, we thought immediately of talking to Lily Allen. I do feel like my career has been fucked with as a result of talking about this stuff. For sure, I really feel that. Last year she wrote for the first time in her book, My Thoughts Exactly, about her alleged sexual assault
by an unnamed music executive. She's one of the few artists who's talked about her experiences and she's one of my oldest friends. In fact, we've known each other since we were kids. Lily, thanks for talking to us there. I just realised before I start I'm wearing a watch. Yeah, nice. I'm Nikita Oliver. This is the next episode, Me Too in Music, part 2.
Lily Allen and I are in conversation at her house. Thanks for talking to us today. I think it would have been remiss of us not to talk to you because since we started this investigation into sexual abuse and harassment in the music industry, stories keep coming up but there is still so much fear and I don't think anyone really feels that there is a particularly safe space to talk about this in it which I think might be true but I think there really
has been. Do you think that the music industry has a problem with sexual abuse? Yes, I do. I think that the music industry has a problem but I also think that the world has a problem with it and it's something that traditionally victims of this sort of abuse are encouraged not to talk about it. TV, I've got my drug 15, your record deal at 15. I never have experienced
this. Like, honestly, with all the male producers that I've worked with, I've always felt extremely safe and actually when I read your book and with things that I just thought, I've never felt this is not protected in my industry. So I wonder, is it particularly bad in the music industry? I mean, I've only worked in the music industry so I can't
say what is like in other industries. I can only say what is like in mine and I can only really talk for my own experience but I know that there have been a few incidents in my career that have been questionable. I think I'm pretty realistic about what the music industry is and it's a really dark place and what it is and it's, you know, long-term contracts. There is no other business in the world where you can take a 19-year-old person
and lock them into a 15-year contract. It doesn't exist. So I know what the music industry is and I know what it's about and it's not about protecting artists, it's about protecting big powerful men in positions of influence and the artists come and go and they come through the door and go out the door and it's the same people that are sitting behind
the desk counting all the money. And also I think that the music industry is unique in that the whole thing from the writing process to the performing process to award ceremonies everything is fueled by alcohol. It's a really interesting environment, you know. Just like, sort of sleeping arrangements, you know, like when I was 19 and I was on a split of bus, I would be sharing, you know, a bedroom with 10 other men, you know. It's a weird
environment to exist in. You signed your deal 19 years ago? No, you did say that. Did we not get that right? Many years ago. No, but you signed your deal in your teens. Yeah. Signed another in your early 20s and things have happened throughout that you would class as misconduct. Yeah. The most stark of these instances is Lill's account of a sexual assault she says she experienced in 2016. She wrote about it in her book. I had been
through a period of sobriety. I'd been six months sober and I don't know, I only wanted to kind of get to six months and on the night that I decided to rekindle my romance with alcohol. This person, yeah, crossed a line and I had been to a party. He was in a position of, you know, responsibility, I guess. And so he'd got me out of this party and had decided that he wanted to take me back to my hotel. It got to my hotel. I couldn't find my room
keys. So he was like, well, why don't you sleep in my bed while I go and get the keys or whatever. So I went, I've passed out in his bed. He said that he was going out with some other people from our group. They went to a strip club and the next thing I knew I woke up and he was in my bed naked, slapping my bum and trying to insert his penis into my private parts. I mean, and, you know, I, I, I've recoiled and I got up out of the bed
and I screamed and, you know, and my keys were there. So, you know, I don't, I was drunk so I can't, all I can tell you is what I do remember, which is, you know, waking up in bed with somebody that I trusted in a position that I really did not want to be all had never and had never given any indication that I did want that. Because you then met up with him? Yeah, yeah. Well, he, he, he had my passport and we're in a foreign country. We ended
up meeting up in LA and he, you know, acknowledged what he done was wrong. He asked me, he asked me not to tell anyone about it. He said that if his girlfriend found out that she'd be distraught, I do remember, like immediately while it was happening, thinking, even I'd never met his mum, I was thinking about his mum and how she would deal with the news that her son was sexual predator. I was prioritising everybody else in this situation, except for
myself. Have you not named him because he's still a successful working person that you may have to see? I buried it within myself. I mean, actually, that's not entirely true because the working relationship between myself and this person did eventually disintegrate and, and I grew to really, really dislike him as a person and as an idea, but not at that time, at that time, I was still weirdly protecting him within it because it was, I
don't know, I just wasn't in a great place. I made a decision that I didn't want to go to the police, I didn't want to, you know, make a fuss and I wanted to keep it quiet, but I did want to protect myself. There are big stars that have stories that are terrified, that are completely terrified, and it's what you're talking about because it's not my stories out, finally I can be free and be the pop star I want to be. These people that own your voices, own your rights
around, is there any way that you don't? Your income is owned and also, but don't get it twisted. I do feel like my career has been fucked with as a result of talking about this stuff. For sure, I really feel that. I think it's truly just today then.
But seriously, on paper, you know, like the album that I released last time on No Shame was the, you know, best-reviewed album that I've ever had and, you know, all the shows that I did were sold out pretty much, apart from the ones that in America, but I did not get a particularly good run at festival this season. I didn't get, you know, particularly big gigs offered to me.
I didn't get a big marketing push behind my album campaign, even though it was probably one of the best record that I've ever written. So, and if that's really linked to the album? Yeah, I really do. Yeah, I really do. And it's always coming down harder on the victim than it does on the perpetrator as far as I'm concerned. People are always questioning what the victim's intentions are or, you know, what it is that their sort of end game is.
And to me, it's just like, I think that the victim's just one validation. They just want someone to go, yeah, that happened. That was wrong. You're a person. Somebody crossed the line with you. Yeah, honestly, it's not that the victim's like, yes, I've been sexually assaulted. I can make loads of money. It's like, no, that's not what anyone wants. If someone just wants someone to hold their hand and go, that's really awful. I'm really sorry that you had to go through that experience.
For me, that's all I ever really wanted. And something that I never got. But, and I'm 34 year old woman with two children. You know, God knows what it's like to be, you know, 19, 20, 21 in this industry without that. Have you had any engagement from your record label since you wrote about the assault that happened to you in the book? Yes. I went out for dinner with, you know, one of the label bosses and he said to me that he had no idea about this incident until he read about it in the book.
Did he say now that we know boy, we're going to do something about it? No. Who is that? The boss of the whole label. The boss of the entire label. Yeah. For me, that would be an extra blow on top of what I've been through and my process of dealing with it. I would just feel so crap. I just want to know whether that was someone from Warner or Parliathan. When did that meeting happen? About about a month after the book came out.
I mean, basically what happened when I, when the day that I got my book delivered to me from my publishers, I was with my TV plugger and I was like, oh my God, my book. So my record label got hold of my book before I got my book. Oh my God, did you get any correspondence from them once they read what was inside? I'm like, I know what happened. They got hold of the book so that they could see what was coming and protect themselves.
And there's nothing to do because otherwise they would have read the book and gone, oh my God, we can't believe what happened with so and so, are you okay? No, that didn't happen. No. Oh, God, no. You know, and this is the thing is that because no one's willing to have the conversation, all I'm everything that I'm saying to you is just guess, guess work because nobody wants to have the conversation, nobody wants to talk about it. Yeah, I mean, it is.
And then they have to talk about their culpability and their knowledge of things knowing. And if that, if their job isn't to protect an artist within that, then what are they doing in that company? What are they doing there? You sign to a deal in your teens, signed another in your early 20s and things have happened throughout that you would class as misconduct. Yeah. We are talking about this in 2019 and we are still hearing exactly the same stories. This isn't getting better or worse.
It's just continuing. Will our discussion today help? Who knows? Will me discussing it with another pop star help? I don't know. Are there certain people that are empowering if they stay there? There's not much change that's going to happen. I think that I would really like to hear from those people in positions. Me too. I would like to talk to them.
Not necessarily about specific incidents, but I just like to hear about how they think about this situation and how they would deal with examples of misconduct. Because I've heard lots of things from victims. I don't hear from anybody that's in positions of power. That will look at young people's parents and the eye and say, I'm going to look after your kid. Don't worry. I'm going to protect them from these dark forces. Please sign on the dotted line. And yeah, I would like to hear.
No, there's absolutely no evidence that this investigation couldn't go there. After we spoke, I felt quite strange. I actually felt quite guilty because when you know someone so well and then you sort of realise you haven't sat them down, I've never sat Lily down and said, do you need to talk about this? Lily says she didn't tell the label directly about her assault in 2016.
And she says she didn't meet with Max Lassarder, the boss of the entire label who's very senior at Warner Music at the end of last year and says they talked about her alleged attack. She also says it's well known in the industry who her alleged attacker is. We got in touch with Warner Music to see if they had done anything since meeting with Lily. They told us, these allegations from 2016 are appalling.
We take accusations of sexual misconduct extremely seriously and investigate claims that are raised with us. We're very focused on enforcing our code of conduct and providing a safe and professional environment at all times. The next episode understands Lily Allen's alleged attacker continues to work with the label. Today's episode was put together by Natalie Ketayna, Nick Rotherham, Dino Sofos, Sam Bonham, Poppy Damon and Jack Sutterby.
If you want to talk to us about any of the things Lini and I discussed today, please get in touch. Our email is the next episode at bbc.co.uk. All the music from today's pod came from BBC Introducing. Our last tune is from Oscar Shella. It's called 1% and Lily features on it. I wish you were studying from us, but you'll find a way to screen. It doesn't make it easy. Three dots won't make anything. I hope you were telling me. We filed a poll that changed. Why, oh why, oh why.
Does it have to be this way, oh why, oh why. Music so what to say. Say it because I'm on your own percent. Senior Red the Lost thing now. I said, don't understand what you meant. I wanna know now, I wanna know now. Press it. I don't wanna have fun. I can't. If I did wrong, let's try again. Don't understand what you meant. Let me learn now, because I'm on your one percent. I thought we said we were the strings attached. We're not exclusive. Stop being stupid.
I've been straight with you since the beginning. It would be great if for once you'd admit it. What's the point that I saw in these arguments? The one with friends. I can't take it the way I can give it. One of these days you'll push me to my limits. You're gonna spoil it for parts of us when you just please give in. Why, oh why, oh why. Does it have to be this way, oh why, oh why. Music so what to say. Say it because I'm on your own percent. Senior Red the Lost thing now.
I said, don't understand what you meant. I want to learn now, I want to learn now. I said, I don't want to help them walk you in. If I did wrong, let's try again. Don't understand what you meant. Let me learn now, because I'm on your one percent. I'm on your one percent. Because I'm on your one percent. I said, don't understand what you meant. I said, don't understand what you meant. Say it because I'm on your one percent. Senior Red the Lost thing now. I said, don't understand what you meant.
I want to learn now, I want to learn now. I don't want to help them walk you in. If I did wrong, let's try again. Don't understand what you meant. Let me learn now, because I'm on your one percent. Say it because I'm on your one percent. Senior Red the Lost thing now. I said, don't understand what you meant. I want to learn now, I want to learn now. I said, don't understand what you meant. If I did wrong, let's try again. Don't understand what you meant.
Let me learn now, because I'm on your one percent. Say it because I'm on your one percent. I said, don't understand what you meant.