Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby, the World editor at The Australian. Welcome aboard everybody. Now, do you think that you should have a self managed super fun Maybe you have a self managed super fund? Do you think it's worth the effort? Or alternatively, if you had won, would you be better off? Would you be a more successful investor? I've had a self managed super fund for about twenty years, but I don't know
as much as my guest today, it's Julie Dolan. She's fed up SMSF, self managed super funds and the state planning at KPMG. Hi, Julia, how are you?
Hi? Good? Thanks Jones?
How are you good? Thank you? Nice to have you on. It's great to have someone actually with a helicopter view of this area. It's the sort of two lines to it. I mean as a journalist I watch it in two ways. I watch it like as a sector is it getting bigger? Is it getting smaller? Or are the trends et cetera? And then I watch it as an investor does it still make sense for me individually to have one? And is it going well enough? And have I got it
structured in the correct fashion. But like one of the things, I suppose just just first of all, usefully and this is pure coincidence, don't you know. It wasn't my smart planning or anything. But the new ATO numbers are out about participation if you like on self managed super funds. It's you'll immediately challenge me on this, I'm sure, but it seems to me that the number of super funds in Australia is stuck hard in or around five hundred and six hundred thousand for as long as I can remember.
But I believe it's growing, but it seems to be only growing a little bit. What's theual numbers?
Actually, yes, James, you must have had you must have had a magical wand on the figures because they actually came out yesterday from the ATO. They come out of supporter. Yeah.
Yeah, I planned it all. Yeah, so what would.
If you've planned out? So once again, yeah, the growth is the growth is consistent like it's once again, there was another seven three hundred setups in the in during the quarter and there's only in a small number of wind wind ups. But you have to I suppose when
I look at it. I look at the legislative landscape and even setting up new funds these days, it's the ATO even most times, most times they're not will give a potential trustee a call and go through to make sure that they are a fit, that they're doing it
for the proper reasons. So I don't mind the steady growth because then with all the changes that are happening at the moment, and the ATO being the regulators, there's is a stronger chance that the ones are getting set up, they're getting set up for the right purpose, and so it's maintaining even more so the credibility of the industry that it deserves. So the latest numbers, I've actually got
them written here. We're six hundred and sixteen six six one hundred and sixteen thousand, four hundred funds and equipped, and that is made up of eight hundred and ninety six billion dollars. So we're literally just just behind the opera my gv MY super sector as the second largest, So we're definitely a big player.
It's always it's always large because the people who have smsfs have more money, of course they do, and just a few other things separately, Investment trends and Vanguard released their report also released their report today that this is the one that triggered my idea to talk to you today. So very briefly, folks, if you're listening about the big picture,
over an number of smsfs continues to rise. There's about six hundred and fifteen thousand sms ss across Australia and the average balance is and this is really interesting, right, it's three hundred and thirty thousand dollars, this is what they say. And of people establishing new funds that is the average balance is three hundred. Yeah, and the average
age is forty seven. This is and this year. We talk about all the time on the show Julie, how much should you have who have an sms F. I mean you might say how long is a piece of strength?
Exactly.
I've had people on the show seriously saying you need a million dollars more typically maybe six seven hundred. I know, I'm trying to remember what the figure is from the professional associations, but obviously those figures are very low because they want as many people to join as possible. But
I think you know money talk. So here's the number of folks for the average person age forty seven who's starting and SMSF At the moment, it's three hundred and thirty thousand dollars, Judy, is that is that enough money to start a fund?
Do you think, Well, I've got clients. It absolutely depends. I've got clients who are starting it in their twenties because they want to. It's not necessarily to me about the money. Obviously, you do need to do your cost benefit analysis. But at the end of the day, it's the type of person that you are as well. So if you really do want to have control and transparency and you really do want to have the ability to invest accordingly and grow your superinnuation earlier the better.
The sooner the better, I suppose. So, yeah, but the sooner the better. You're not going to have three hundred Most people aren't going to have three hundred and thirty thousand, are there.
No, it's more the fact of the obviously the age, it's their ability of how much money they have outside. And also we're in a different world too, in the sense that the younger than someone is, it's the more of their the superinnovation of their job. They're super guarantee
that's going in so that consistent ability. And also insurances, so if insurances are going to go into the fund, that that can potentially make it a small fund to potentially a very large fund should it triggering it ben occur. And also whatever assets are sit outside. So I don't have a hard and fast rule. You know, obviously you don't start one with a very very small amount, but it does.
Is there a rock bottom minimum that you would see?
I would probably say that to two hundred two fifty. I'm sort of comfortable with that based on doing analysis that sits outside.
Okay, that's very interesting now, folks, I find with surf managed super funds. I was probably younger than most people when I did it, but that was because I was writing about it and I thought, you know, you should sort of walk the talk. But I find this in terms of manage super funds. In terms of people thinking about it, the average age is forty seven, which is
useful to a point. That's the commencement age. The average age, of course is older, will skew older because by definition, if people start on average at forty seven, then if you think about it, it's older people who have them, and older people are wealthier because they saved for longer.
That all makes sense, but Judy, it seems to be the two types of people who kind of think about actively think about self managed super funds, who may not have them as a young person or young young up to the age of forty seven, which are who are thinking, Hey, you know, I could do a lot more, I could have control. Crucially, people will often say I want to put a property in there. I know property. I like property, and my big fund, my Australian super Cibus or whatever.
They're not doing that. They can't buy the house around the corner that I want to buy. That's a big distinction for funds. The other thing that happens is on the other side where people have big savings and super where they have I wish we could get a clear number on this, but there is a point in the big super funds be there retail or industry where really they're designed for the average investor, and you're not an
average investor anymore. And certainly in many funds you're crosss opsidizing other in terms of the fees you're paying and all that you could be paying much less. Could you explain that to us?
Yeah, it's it is interesting because even when you look at the statistics on the industry funds, obviously the amounts are a lot smaller and they're an accumulation phase too. When you look at the self managed fund where on it's a very high level of pension drawdown phase and the fund and the money is still increasing. So that's a very important point.
Allow yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we're in a very heavy drawdown phase. So it once again does come back to the person and their willingness to to have that very clear transparency in control and also to invest in other assets that may not fall within the you know, their prove product listing or structure of their industry fund. And there's there's a lot of reasons that I see people set them up. A lot of them do they do if they're in business.
It's part of their structuring in businesses, especially if they've got commercial property.
A lot of those. It's another huge thing that if you have a business, you can buy your fund, can buy a property and you can rent from your fund basically, which is such a winner if you have a business.
Yes, that's that is that is quite common. And then it's it's people coming up to look, there's there's a whole. I call it the life cycle of the self managed fund. There, it's a constantly moving depending on the profile, what members are in, what members are coming in, what are the what are the needs and wishes of those specific members.
So it constantly changes and moves. And that's why I love them so much, because it can ebb and flow for a family depending on that specific members investment needs and desires and requirements.
You mentioned how having a certain matter of super fund apart from the control, apart from that, you should be paying less in You should be, but you may not be paying less in fees. Depends on how much you have and how you operate, and whether you have loads of bts in there, for instance, and it's just this minimum low touch fund, or whether you're this incredibly diversified fund and your accountant is bamboos of every with your new investments. But then you're going to have higher fees.
But what I want to ask you is you mentioned other assets. The obvious one is direct property. Is there other asset classes that I can put into my SMSF that I don't get a big fund?
Yeah? The main one is property, definitely, and it may also be investments with related parties around allowable and investments and structures. So without going into too much complexity, it maybe going into lend leverage and ultimately it usually is property but leveraging the superinnoation with a related party to go in in tenants and common to acquire property or into an unrelated trust to do certain things. So there is a subset of different investments that an industry fund
won't allow for. And it's also another big thing with self managed funds. It's the timing. It's the timing of when you put your contributions in. It's the timing of when you pay your tax yes point, timing of starting retirement, the timing of making sure the who, when and how of your superinnoation goes to your loved ones. So it's it's also it comes back to that control of making sure that you really are maximizing the life journey of your contributions to retirement, to a state planning and the
most affected by for your family. It's very difficult with an industry fund because you just dominate. You're just controlled by forms ben sent out to you and you don't know what's happening behind the scene.
Yeah, and they are designed for that. They are designed for mass engaged there and they work very well on that basis. But they do, but not if you want to do so you're talking about timing, I mean, I think another point what timing is in terms of asset allocation and tactical asset allocation. You can decide if you think that the market is overheating, you can reallocate the
money out into something else. Likewise, if you think a certain area is undercooked and it's going to come flying back, you can move it around or even the safe spaces of chairs. Right, So the shaar is tanking. You know, it's tanking. The whole world it's tanking. The big super funds are going to be very slow to get around to getting out there, but you can do seconds and you can have true diversification.
You can have true diversification where you can go I want I even want cash, I want turned deposits, I want list of securities in these industries, and I want like you can really work with a financial advisor, even depending on how savvy the investor is to to really have that investment strategy that is required for your fund to be that proactive investment strategy that dictates how you are going to invest for your retirement. So it does allow you that control and transparency of those words I
keep using, but they're very much the case. You can very much, you know. But there's a flip side. The flip side means that you are required to follow strict rules that are that are handed down by the ATO because they are the regulator. And it is a very very high tax concession environment. So there is you do have to follow a subset of rules and it does take time. It's another it's another entity that needs tax returns to me.
The flip side, if I look back at twenty years of having a Serve super fund, is the spinning out forms which seems to get worse worse. It gets worse and worse, and the length and the complexity of these forms get worse and worse. I'm just doing one at the moment. What is it? Oh, this isn't even something I want to do. This is an existing organization which has changed its rules and has said to me I
must update my form filling for them. And it's just one asset, you know, it's good for it's worth ah, yes, but it doesn't really matter what it is. The point I'm making is that people have to they really have you really have to say, Okay, I take that on board. I'm going to have to do it.
Yeah, you put the time into it board. Yeah.
Have you if I walked into your office and said, how long is it going to take me every year or every month? Have you got a benchmark answer?
Well, there's obviously the investing. It depends on how active you want to be as an investor and where you are. So if you the more active you are, obviously the more time it's going to take. Or if you're a set and forget or if you're this part of your portfolio that you set and forget, well it doesn't take too much time. But it's a big thing. Is once again the investment strategy that you need to put your mind to. The ATO doesn't want to see just a
standard template. They actually want you to go. As a trustee, I'm different to a member. I have trustees duties. That's a covenant, that's that is required that you must act in the best interest of members, be it yourself in the sense of looking at the investment strategy of the fund and making sure it's in line with the sole purpose of retirement for the members be yourself.
Yeah, so what's new in this area? Like what has changed SMSFS for there was there was a period obviously where they were front and center of the news for the simple reason that you could put any amount into super in those days it was uncapped. And then on top of that, the whole area was new and it's mushroomed and now it's uh now it's matured or so years in yeah, gentle pace of growth. It's sort of
more or less a proxy with the wider population. Uh So, so what is different now than than that period?
Definitely maturity. Maturity the industry is absolute, and maturity the industry is actually carved out certain rules that you know, people were potentially maybe taking advantage of that. We're going against the intention of the laws. Political but you know, obviously a different elected, different different government coming through unfortunately, they've wanted to have a look at the rules that sit over there and what can be tweaked, which I would like for that to stop for a little while.
Personally, I mean, I mean, in a way, it's in a way it's a it's a live beast, right, I mean, in.
A way, it's a huge amount of money.
Are we dreaming that they will ever be left alone? And maybe that's part of the past that we have to take on and see if you want to be active with SUPER. Part of that has been across the rules, which not that they're changing, but that they will never stop changing.
It's like it's like income tax rules as well. It is just what tax tax changes all the time. But you know, I could talk for hours about the concept where superannuation sits within the landscape of our retirement policy and how much tweaking can get too much because at the end of the day, it is one of the pillars, and one of the pillars is government support. One of is self funding through superinnoation, and one of it is assets that sit outside of super. And the government support
side is obviously shrinking. The coffers are shrinking, and so it is encouraged. It should be more encouragement to be able to self self serve and self invest and be self sufficient. So changing these rules all the time and cutting the ability to continue to contribute is got to me, is going against this self ability to self you know, fun to your own retirement. So it's a blind line of tweaking.
If I said to you, apart from indexation inflation indexation which was built in anyway that all changes of lead, I haven't seen any. I haven't seen one encouraging change to super for years. No, they're generally discouraging, am I is that totally great?
And it shouldn't be discouraging. It should be encouraging. So we want to save and we want to be able to be self sufficient in retirement because we need to be. You know, we're seeing this even now without cost of living crisis, We're needing to be even more self sufficient moving forward. So I feel like it's a band aid approach consistently on these changes, and even I could once again spend hours talking about the three million dollar proposed change.
It's a band aid's there's no logic behind it.
Okay, all right, well we might deal with that in moments. We might take you for that break. Yes I have, I hope I've come. I've learned how to actually explain this tax in less than thirty seconds.
I prepared to because I'd be glad to hear it.
Yeah, yeah you can. After the break, Hello and welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby, the editor at The Australian. I'm talking to Julie Dolan, who is the head of SMSs and the State Planning. Julie, I've just thought in terms of your job title, they're not supposed to be related to SMSs.
And I know I do fad into each other.
We are told it sober told the have nothing to do with each other. But there you are with that.
I would just leave that for our listeners to ponder. Okay, now, if I've got an SMS and I see that the big funds are knocking out of the park and they're doing ten percent a year, and that's not the case anymore, but there was a year or two where they were doing ten percent a year, or I read you know, obviously you always read about the most successful fund right, so there's always going to be a couple of funds that do great and we paid ess to the ones
who are appalling. How do I score myself. I've got an SMSF Why do I score myself? Should I just say, okay, I take a fund see bus are super and I've got to pick them every year? That has the approach.
Oh, it's so difficult because you're comparing apples to orangers like, unless you're really understanding what the underlying investment methodology is and how active they are versus if it's just set and forget versus if it's active management, then the fee structure, it's it's and then even just trying to, you know, get to the real bottom figures and not just the broadcasted figures, it's it's very difficult. I think with a self managed fund, you need to be comfortable with your
own profile. So you need to be comfortable with you as an investor and how much risk you're prepared to take, and then then invest accordingly. Don't try and chase returns because you know, and don't try to look backwards on past performance. We know that that that's not the way
to go. So sitting there going this is me as an investor, and me and my timeline towards when I want to retire or whatever your situation is, this is what I'm comfortable with, and based on that profile, you seek competent advice or invest accordingly based on what your comfort level is.
Well, is there a rock bottom the turn where you said, look, you'd really want to be doing x percent above at least want.
To keep CPI. You want at least you don't want to be going backwards with your dollars, that's for sure. You don't want to be sitting at all in cash and going backwards. But some people are some people comfortable with that.
Yeah, I wonder how they're comfortable with that.
It's a very hard one to do. Every Actually, every fund is different, Every single super fund is different. That's why I love about them in essence, because they're investing accordingly based and it's not only just based on them, it's based on the profile of their family.
Yeah.
Yeah, and that even gets even more interesting when the kids come in.
Yes, and of course all funds have too. Generally, generally it tends to be two partners, husband and wife or whatever. Yeah, that's a sort of a core unit in super But you can have up to six people in the fund. Now, Yeah, but what's the average since.
It's still dominant, it's still a dominant two member fund. Still, there's there's pros and cons of bringing children into the fund or even prize and cons of having business partners in there.
Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, I won't go down that ali just for the moment, because I wanted to ask you one or two other things, more contemporary issues. So we had a budget recently, and we've had some well's. There's text the main news cross out of the budget, none of which was in the budget per se. But this year is there are tax cuts personal tax cuts across
the board. The ones on the upper end are smaller than they were going to be, but there are still tax cuts for everybody, as they like to tell us.
Now in terms of Super and tax, the biggest news probably for a long time, is that, apart from inflation indexing as I mentioned, where the amount you can put in has increased a little bit, pre tax contributions has gone from twenty seven and a half thousand to thirty thousand, and the SGC, the compulsory amount that must go into SUPER on your behalf each year goes from a eleven to eleven point five percent in July. So we all
know that. But the newest thing in tax and super is that, for a long time, being the last couple of years, how tax worked in super was once you had more than one point nine her capitac her head per remember, then you started to pay tax and it was at fifteen percent, and then out of the blue, the government has announced a second tax, a new tax, a fresh tax. This tax kicks in at three million, and once you've more than three million, you pay another
fifteen percent tax. And this tax is completely different. It's based on paper gains and people are furious about this. All I want to say to you is, is there any reason to think that it's not going to go through as planned?
I'm still keeping my fingers and toes crossed. So where we currently stand is obviously they're the Senate to Elect Committee. There was a report done back seventeenth of May, and they supported supported that report to say go through unchanged.
Yeah, they said. They basically said, it's fine, it's fine. Yeah, paper gains, it's fine, not even putting in it.
Yeah, even though as an industry we've been fighting hard, fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting, even coming to as another solution of doing a deeming rate. And so there's been there's been all sorts. So last week it went through the Lower House and it actually got adjourned a few times because there was an about twelve to fifteen MPs really really showing distaste and concern about a lot of policies, and mainly around the unrealized gains and the lack of indexation and the flow on effect.
There's so many flow on effects. Those two are highlighted, but when you actually get into the nitty gritty of the proposed changes, there's a whole lot of subset of consequences, which there's a lot there. And where we currently stand now is it's going into Senate to the upper house, and we expect that there will be a very strong debate. So government's trying to push through it to be legislated by thirty June. We've still got another election as well
that's going to be sitting on the side. So I'm praying and hoping that common sense will still prevail even though we're getting to the twenty end. I'm being an optimist here and I'm sitting out all my energy.
Right all right, Well, I just don't know. I don't know. I don't know how parliament really works. But I suppose that's.
Where we stand, that that's the actual facts right now.
So there is a distinct possibility that there could be some sort of detail understandate that amends this tax. That remains a distinct possibility, doesn't it.
And we've still got a way to go. We do have still a way to go.
So okay, yeah, all right, and so that's uh. With that way against smfs and the participation in them, do you think difficultes through.
Well, it will definitely affect the funds that are at maturity and the ones that have got more than you know, obviously the three mil with luck of indexation, will affect funds going forward. So that is that is, it's a it's a there differently will be didn't That's for sure. There'll be a release if it goes through. There'll be a strong, a big release of funds, which will which will cause issues in its own right in the sense of potential full sale of assets which weren't planning to
be sold and unnecessary transaction. Causes a whole lot of stuff that may come out of this. Another big sleeper, which I spent a lot of time talking to clients on, is not only the proposed div two ninety six tax, but it's the death benefit tax that sits on top of it.
Just before you tell us about that the two nine six, folks, is the three million tax.
Just just so everyone's sorry, it's I mean accounting nerd there.
That's all right for all notes. It's just some of us. I'll pay to translate a bit. So tell us what we wanted to say about the death pack death benefits.
Yeah, so a lot of clients, so everyone, you know, James, you get your own financials and you have part of that. You have your member statements, and if you're over sixty and you take you can you can access your superinnuation without paying any tax as a lump summer a pension, beautiful system, beautiful thing. But still on your member statement, you would have a tax free and a taxable component
that's shown there. And basically that tax free amount is your after tax money so that you've been able to put into the fund over the years, and the balance is all the earnings that it's made and all your your super guarantee contributions that it's built out. Now a lot of funds, that's quite a big especially for how long you know you've been in yours for twenty years, James, you may have quite a large taxable component there too. So what that means is dependent on who it goes
on your passing. If it says goes out to ultimately goes out to adult financially independent children. There is up to seventeen percent tax on that amount.
Yes, bux, a compustible component is taxed at seventeen percent effectively. Yeah, something changed.
No, it's just the fact that this additional tax with in the fund is another tax on top of another tax that will potentially it's working through with clients saying all right, well you're in this space, now what do we do in start to move? Is a hybrid model?
Well, I guess, I said, because this notion of double tax, which will ask you.
One wels you're alive to take to take money out?
Yes, yeah, so it's the it's the it's the effective folks. Just to clarify in case you're you're not following this, and it is. It's super. So it's tricky. But like people say, what happens to you if you? If you if in terms of inheritance and super is becoming more and more correct me band things around here, Julie. Inheritances become more important in relation to SUPER. Right, so often people will have more on SUPER than anything else except home.
Correct.
The taxable component that Julie's talking about, there the believe it or not, the little bit that you got a tax concession zones over the years, they will tax that part when you die in your death benefit and effectively works out as seventeen percent. So that's that's what you're you're alluding to, Is that right?
Yeah? So it's if you're in that category where you've got a highest superinnuation balance and you do have a high taxable component, and you have potentially this additional tax that may apply. It's working through. I work through with clients on what is the best structure, what is it? What are your potential plan B and c this If this tax comes through, do we look to move some
money out? And if we do, what structure does it go into the potentially having like a hybrid model of investment vehicles?
Okay, I have two more questions through and try and make them short. One this thing about having a threshold and super extreme is it effectively a cap? I mean really basically, would you be a fool to have more than three million and super ever under these new rules? Oh do you want to put that? Do you want to put that question to one side? Put it? What did they say a reserve result?
Yeah? The way the reels work because you can have a really high balance that not have to pay the tax. So there's a whole misconception around how it works.
Well, isn't it also the case that you could leave the money in the super system, per se the system, and only pay fifteen percent on it rather than the bit that success couldn't you have it in the system, but you'd only be paying fifteen You wouldn't be paying marginal rates or anything.
Well, no, you'd have to take it out of the system, maybe have it in another tax vehicle too, meant to keep the rates down.
You might, But if you did nothing, if you were if inertia, then what would happen if it would be taxed?
Yes, if you had over three million, it's not the it's not all the amount over three million, it's what your balance is at one July twenty twenty five when it comes in. Yes, so f your balance is at seven million and it increases just seven and a half, it's only that half a million dollars that that's the baseline of the calculation. So it's always important to note that too. It's not everything over three million. This is just a standard cap.
So keep all that in mind, folks. Should you be in the fortuer position to have that amount in super and I'm sure many listeners are saying, really, I don't have this problem, which you probably don't, but if they don't index it for inflation, you'd yeah, how fast it comes around. Let me tell you if you think about house prices and how much they've moved, well, just just.
It's not only about that time. Yeah, it's not about that, James too. It's just the fact also that it's going against the basic tax principles.
You don't tax paper gains.
Yeah, and that's that's really the heart of the problem here, is that there.
Yeah, Okay, we take and we certainly will take that. Take that on board. Yeah, okay, we will break and we will be back with some great questions designed specifically for Julie because I have a couple of the SMSF questions which I've collected for her. Okay, back in a moment, Hello, and welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. James Kirby talking to Julie Dolan from KPMG. Okay, Tracy says, my husband and I have a self manager super fund
and also two daughters and a younger son. What would be the positives and negatives of incorporating them into the s MSF now that it can have six members. You mentioned that briefly.
Yes, yes, So the positives are it's obviously bringing the power of bringing more money into the one the one area, into the one bank account per se or the one structure to invest. So you've got you've got the leverage of more capital to invest. So that's that's a very positive piece. The other piece is education. I like the fact that you know your children are on the journey with you on educating around how to invest and learning
what everything around that means. And you know, obviously it's a reduction in fees potentially by bringing consolidating the family super together, so they'd be the main advantages. The main the disadvantages are you are all in it together, so there could be they always you know, that could be cause issues on the family side around disagreements on investing.
Yes, you're always killing each other. Would be killing each other inside in the SMSF meeting too. Maybe that's what you're alluding to.
Also too, it's not to underestimate underestimate the responsibility of the children having to be directors.
Yes, of course that's a big one, and I would think also we have because this is new, it's not being tested. But if you have very old parents who just want income, and you've got very young, very relatively younger adult participants, and they want something entirely different, and I think of.
This whole area of elder abuse that's coming through each abuse.
Yeah, which a new corridor if you like our potential new corridor to it. Yeah, that's an article for me to write some day, Julie your mind, Okay, I think unfortunately, just on time we can fish in. One more question. It's from Mask. After substandard returns over two years, I've decided to take over the management of my self managed super Fun and I plan I think he means the investment allocation. I plan to move about twelve stocks and three managed funds to over and flit them into a
few selected exchange traded funds. Is there anything I should be considering before doing this, tax implications, et cetera. Is there a recommended way of making a change.
Yeah?
So of course everyone loves ETS. Certainly they love its simplicity, low fees, and this concept that you can only go so wrong and I can't go any more wrong than anybody else. But and this is never advice, folks. This is information only, but from a universal perspective, when someone has some sort of eureka moment and says, gee, you know my fund is too complicated, I'll slam it all into ETFs, one for the US, one for Australia, you know, one for bonds.
What what? What?
What's your got reaction to that, Judy.
My gut reaction to that is, never do anything for tax reasons. So do it purely if it's a good investment for you. So once again, you know, based on as you mentioned, James, if it's getting too complex, if the risk is getting a little bit skewed to what you're comfortable with, do it for you based on your investment principles. Don't don't ever do an investment decision for tax, because it's just it's a byproduct.
Yes, of course, and that's the point that that's regularly made by advisors across across all investing. You don't do it for tax. Do it, does it makes sense, and then see what the taxes correct? Exactly. Terrific. That's a good way to finish I think, thank you very.
Much, thank you, James. I really enjoyed journey on.
Show and thank you very much. We haven't we haven't talked much before, we haven't had you on the show before, but it was great. Thank you much very much. We will have you again, lovely to talk. That was Julie Dolan, Folks, head of SMSF and Estate Planning at KPMG. Okay, I didn't get through all the questions because Julie was so interesting and there was so much to talk about there. And I know that we don't do SMSs perhaps as often as we should. It's a great area. I recommend
anyone who's an active investor to look at them. I'm not saying get one, do one, but certainly check them out and see what they suit you. And as I say, I've had one myself for twenty years or so and it's been real education. As you can imagine, through the years, through the GFC, through everything as at COVID and everything else. You are tested, that's for sure at times with them, because you're on your own and you can't just hope that the committee investment committee at a big super fund
is getting it right. That's the thing I think that we should all keep in mind. All right, let's have some more questions. The money puzzle at the Australian dot com. Dot au is the email I hope to you soon