Hello, and welcome to the Australians Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirkby Well, the editor at The Australian. Welcome aboard everybody. You know, when I asked this week's guest to come on the show, I didn't know at the time that we were going to have the worst day on the stock market for four years in the same week, or indeed that share markets would have moved, you know, from pretty good to a pretty rocky in a matter of days. So it's good timing. Danielle Ekoye has been on the
show before. She's an author of the book Shared Plicity. She's a writer, she's a television presenter. She's a seasoned investor and a professional investor for many years around the world, in London and here. It's always good to talk to her. I'm delighted to have her on the show. How are you, Danielle?
Good James, Thank you so much for having me back on the program.
Exquisite sense of timing straight into it. If you and I right, let's say you and I Danielle had a self managed super fund full of shares and I said to you, oh my god, I got a scare on Monday, Japan felt ten percent. The US fell over days. The ax, of course, delighted in classic fashion, fell with vigor for no apparentarieson apart from the US. So what if I was saying to you, hey, what should we do with our shares? Now? What would you got instinct be?
Well? I can only revisit a conversation I had with a former very large client of mine. He used to invest in emerging markets, and basically the approach was a you do nothing until you establish really what was going on, which became quite clear James that there was what is
called the unwind of the Japanese yen carry trade. So for the most simplifictic purposes out there, it represented a whole lot of leverage borrowing by hedge funds in our financial system, where they borrow in Japanese yen and then invest in overseas assets, particularly into the US. That's where
a lot of the money had gone. And because of a number of events, including a high and expected hike in the Japanese interest rates of about twenty five basis points, you started to see a big move between the US dollar and the en, and that meant this lovely carry trade, which has basically been a funding source for hedge funds
to invest in overseas markets came under pressure. And the long and the short of the story, because some people might find it a little bit confusing, is just imagine you have one of these and James, you and I have spoken about these before, these liquidity draw down events, and it's back when hedge funds get themselves into trouble because they've taken on too much debt and something in
their position starts to work against them. So instead of making lots of money, they start to generate lots of losses. And the more that the assets that they've invested in for the prices, the more that they have to sell to cover at the other end. And basically that huge four that we saw in the nicke and the cosby the Korean market on Monday, that's not normal. That is just not normal. That isn't just the US going, Oh, we might be going growing more slowly, or a recession
might be coming, James. That means something has not broken in the financial system, but in some of these big hedge funds with all that debt, are coming unstuck.
I won't say that I was cynical about this currage trade. But you know, to me, correct me if I'm wrong, you know it's ancality. I wake up and I find that the Australian markets has the worst day in four years because the hedge funds in the japan carry trade. And I know a lot of people have mentioned it as part of their invariably you know, lengthy menu length explanation as to why the markets felt, But that doesn't
explain why the markets lost their nerve. The quantity of that action doesn't explain why traders lost their nerve around the world, including here. I know what happened, and I know it's in there among the explanations.
Why doesn't it Why Why? Because I think what people have completely underestimated, and I think it's really clear when you compare the Australian market to the US market, and what's being impacted in the US is that these hedge funds had been riding let's say, the gen Ai way, the golp one wave, which we do disgusted at our last one, and those share prices are being hit more and we're actually seeing that being reflected back into the
Australian share market with the stocks like Goodman Group, by way, of example, which has exposure to data centers getting hit. Now you might be sort of saying, like, what does little All Australia have to do with the carry trade? Well, nothing directly probably, But to the extent that the financial system is so intertwined, James, it can no longer be a case of when something goes wrong in one part
of the world, it has no impact. El Sweat. I'll give you an example, long term capital management, and it's what I always use it, and it came unstuck in the Asian currency crisis. And that was the time when I was broking emerging markets and they were meant to be the best mathematicians around with the best algorithms and black box these to call it black box at the time, and they hadn't anticipated that Russia would to fault on its sovereign debt. Okay, when they did that, the whole
hedge fund basically blew up. So what started as an Asian currency crisis where they were making money and the Asian markets were falling, suddenly became oh my gosh, this is a Wall Street problem. And you saw the US market then responding in kind, and they had to bail
out LTCM because it became too big to fail. Now, the events that you've seen with the carry trade a I think through the passage of time, we'll find out that carry trade has in fact injected so much money into assets overseas that we're probably only seen the tip of the iceberg in terms of the young wide potentially in the trade. We don't know how much leverage these heads funds have and how long it's going to take
them to rebalance. All we do know is that the Bank of Japan came out in response and said, oh, well, we won't be raising interest rates anytime soon.
That's right, so hang on. So this curriage trade is not as disturbed as we thought.
No, on the contrary, it is that disturbed because the Bank of Japan came out and said, it's like a FED put when markets fall. They've come out and said, and I suspect the US. The FED was on the phone to them saying, whoa guys, hello. We can't afford to have at this point in the cycle one of these drawdown events where we go back to what happened in the lockdowns.
What I meant was that if I'm a retail investor listening to the show and I hear this, I say, okay, right, okay, you know, okay, So all these sort of desk jockeys around the world, what my share is and what I'm really driving at is I don't want to simplify the long term capital management event. But in a way, right there were technical.
Events correct, totally, totally, they don't.
Fully explain why the market has dropped. And what I'm asking you, I suppose what I'm driving at is it wasn't much of a drop in the end. It has recovered a fair bit so far. It's not a crash. It's not even a correction. The fall was seven point five percent at its peak on the US, on the SMP and ten percent is a correction. But I wonder, Danielle, if we were running our shares in the SMSF and you were telling me all about this stuff, I would
simply say, I think I worry sentimental approach. Knowing history, watching markets all the way back to nineteen eighty seven, I feel it's a dress rehearsal for the for for what's what this market is due.
So you're saying you think markets need to crash. Is that what you're saying?
I'm saying that look. One of the things I sort of obsessed with all week, of all the mountains of material that I've read and listened to, is Mike Wilson, the strategy king right at Morgan Stanley, the king of the global market. And by the way, in terms of what do people do in Australia, they absolutely dominate the top end of financial advice market here. I mean they think they have something like a quarter of all entries on our top advisor's list. And the Air chief just said,
very simple thing. He said, longtime average under US sixteen times PE, current PE twenty one. He thinks it should drop to about nineteen to be right, either the earnings have to fly up for all those stocks in the US or they have to come down. And this market has this market is due to a reversal because of the AI excitement which percolates right through the market even to our Maybe you know, what do you think of that? Of what I'm saying, Well.
It's funny because you've gone from like it's a storm in a tea cup about the unworked. It's the end trade. But the markets really need to fall over in a heap. And of course there is that narrative out there. It's probably been the most distrusted rally in share markets post the low.
I really like that freeze.
Well it is people just go, this shouldn't be happening, and yet you go, us earnings are actually better than expected this quarter. They're coming out better than expected. I think that whole gloom we're going to mean revert back on valuations. I personally don't subscribe to it. I go back to the financial system globally has fundamentally shifted over
the last thirty years. Of course, there are investors, and you have to be very careful to differentiate between somebody that has ten billion, one hundred billion, or even one hundred million versus probably most of your listeners, because those people have a completely different take on our set allocation, okay, versus most of us who have money in the markets and our superannuation in the markets and hedge super funds.
Have been the biggest buyers of banks over this year, which I bet would surprise you because every broker has a cell rating on them.
So I think, Sorry, Danielle, I talked about the Australian banks.
Yeah, the Australian banks.
Yeah, yeah, So this is why CommBank is at a one hundred and thirty bucks et cetera.
Correct and nobody expected That's I think this whole big, you know, doom gloom. Interest rates are still going to go up in Australia. I'm not so sure about that when you look at the reset in the markets. Possibly, yes, Australian shares had moved too far. Yes, US shares had moved too far. Is jen Ai a flash in the pan? Absolutely? Not so differentiate between what was possibly exuberants coming into certain shares. But I just think be very careful about
saying markets are going to crash. Loople say markets are going to crash, but I will put it out there that there is no government and no central bank that's going to let that happen.
Okay, By the way, I would never say markets are going to crash, and I would never say the word panic. What I would say is that pullback wasn't as big as I thought it was going to be, simple as that, because.
It hasn't finished, necessarily has backstopped everything. That's what I was trying to explain, the Bank of Japan has kind of backstopped it. Now Again, I.
Don't want people to be scared because ultimately, at the end of the day, it's like it's going to once this liquidity draw down, once the liquidity readjusts right, it will be about going back to earnings. And if earnings are growing, it's a very simple story. Share prices go up over time, end of story.
So let's take that line of inquiry. If that's the case, and let's assume that's the key, then we have a market that is a bit cheaper this week than last week, and is it too early to go bargain hunting.
Well, it's reporting season, James. So I think in the context that that it is probably more prudent to, rather than play the casino game of you know, red or black, that investors should wait till the results come out. I'll give you a couple of examples. Murvak was off about twelve percent today because the twenty twenty five guidance is lower than expected. Then there is another company, ordinate a favorite, They had to reset their earnings guidance down and it
fell thirty five percent. But now a whole lot of brokers have come up and upgraded today. Or Macquarie, which are downgraded before, have upgraded and said look now it's offering value. So I guess, whilst not giving advice, I would say two listeners, wait till look at the company reports. There's going to be ongoing volatility and big share price moves.
So rather than going to the casino and second guessing saying, is combat share price going to go up and down till well, Telster just go up and down whatever, just I think wait and absorb because everybody's going to have a different position in terms of the shares they own, what time period, et cetera. But I think you can expect volatility in this earning season.
I want to ask you one thing, which was just about how our market is just a little bit different
than the US and earnings. I will just take Combank you mentioned there, biggest stock in the market, biggest bank in the market than as you to report on the fourteenth, which is next Wednesday, and they are expected market consensus is that their profit actually will drop a little bit, very roughly from ten point something to nine point something billion, But at the same time, their dividend is going to
crawl higher by five cents. What I'm driving out here is in our market, the value proposal to the investor includes dividends at like four percent dividend yeal. In the US the dividend is nothing remotely near that, so the promise is price increased. So what I'm going to ask you is, when you look at the when you look at the results, should the dividends hay out or payment be a more important criteria on the ASEX than it would be on global shares.
Well, it really depends on the share James, because obviously it's important for being become important portant for the big miners, and it is important for the banks. But there's a whole lot of shares that don't pay much dividend here in Australia.
For the ones that are the big like literally dividend influencers like Common.
Well, yeah, yeah, of course. Of course in the US it's buybacks hmm okay, because they changed the legislation years ago. I think it was Bill Clinton that made buybacks more attractive than dividends. So yeah, of course, dividend is hugely important. Although I wouldn't be surprised unless they really come out on a big miss on the dividends or a big better than expected on the dividend. I wouldn't expect that you're going to get much movement for some of those
more well known companies. Actually, I haven't had a look at Transurban today because I think their dividend might be slightly better than expected. But generally speaking, Rio came out with a lower than expected dividend the other day and the share price didn't really respond, so it has to be quite a big change for them.
Dramatic. Okay, Actually, if I were talking on dividend, then before we go to the brick, I wanted to throw one other thing out to you, which is I was surprised, you know even I think at the start of the show there I mentioned, oh, you know, we the distinct value proposal of Australian shares as opposed to offshore shares is the dividend rate, the dividend yield. But it's been dropping and the forecast dividend use for the market is under four. It's three point eight. We were always told
it was four and a half. So to that extent, the dividend side of the dealer seems to be feeding while the price action is all right, but it's never as good as the US. What do you think of that?
I'm not surprised all of these institutions that are paid out to higher payout ratios, too much in dividends and haven't invested in the future have to invest now. It's a huge problem.
They catching up with them.
Yeah, totally, totally. Banks are a classic case in point. Again, it goes back to even if you're looking at things like cybersecurity and all the attacks that are going on there, I mean they have to invest for the future. Oh that's the bottom line. I think investors have feasted gorged themselves on amazing dividends in Australia and it's typical of a cyclical, mature market. The UK is the same. I think you'll find James that has quite a high yield
as well. From memory, for example, tobacco companies. I was just recently in London met with a friend of mine whose I know tobacco companies on everybody's cup of tea. So I'm not suggesting you run out and buy them.
I know there'd been great investments for a long time.
I know this, but the dividend built on BAT is over nine percent British and American tobacco. Because my friend is top rated tobacco analyst in the world, and I said how much capital erosion have you had me? He said, oh, yes, quite a bit of capital erosion, and I go then he explains why. But I guess what I'm saying is that some of those more mature industries etc. Have much
higher yields. But in the case of Australia, if we look at our companies that respond or behave in a fashion that is more attuned to possibly what investors look for in the US, so the car sales area which is reporting on Friday, the likes of Wistech Global zero. Now, these companies are investing for the future, always upgrading, and they don't pay high dividends, and yet their performance capital appreciation has been spectacular.
We won't go down the side allly of the reality that the frank dividend regime has a lot too answer for here. You know, it really does, because it's steam ruled and basically shunted the whole market towards the dividends becoming perhaps overly important A story for another day. We'd be back in a moment, folks would take shortbreak. Hello
and welcome back to the Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm talking to Danielle O Cooye, author of the Shaplicity book, which was a bestseller on shares and terrific book if you are getting to know the share market and want an introduction to it. She is also an analyst, investor, professional investor and writer. I wanted to ask you, Danielle.
This segment, folks, is going to be choppy, right because I'm going to throw different things at Danielle and she's sort of a person that you can do this and she's going to be able to answer most of the questions. You know, this hunt for alternative assets and this which
I'm terribly skeptical about. Not that I'm skeptical about it, I'm terribly skeptical about the business of listed securities on the Australian market, where mom and Dad are told, here's your way into private credit, here's your way into private equity in the very to me, extremely unlikely vehicle of
a listed share. Have you did you have a look at see how those performed in the shock drop earlier in the week, and what do you think of that fashion of pulling retail investors into I mean, the funds are just popping out by the day. Everyone's rushing in and launching these listed funds where they say to people, hey, folks, you know you can't get at private credit and private equity because you're just Joe average. But if you want to catch up with the future phone in Australian super
by this listed shair. What do you think of that whole thing.
Well, I'm going to refer to another guest of yours, Will Hamilton, because Will and I used to work together and we have a little bit of a joke about this, and it's not to dismiss anyone that has put money in these forms of asset classes, but we are very cynical because we've come from that side of the industry.
We know that the institutions will give the tell public the funds that they think they will like and they can sell so in straight off the bat, I'm very concerned cynical that whilst there will be good vehicles, there will also be vehicles that could tell a very sorry story down the track. Now, private credit has been a huge growth market, largely to do with banking regulations, so the banks have shift out of funding in this area
and private institutions have moved into it. In my former job at Osby's, I was interviewing a lot of private credit people. It is growing rapidly, but when you think about it, not all debt see mine, credit is created equally, James. And if we are going into an economic slowdown, albeit everyone's debating the extent of the slowdown, one has to
question the quality of the credit that people are investing in. Intuitively, if you're getting a ten percent plus yield on debt versus let's say I bought some A and ZID corporate bonds today which are almost yielding about five point nine percent versus getting ten percent, you have to ask how much risk am I taking for that almost additional five percent per annum? And personally for smaller investors it sounds attractive.
I know a lot of older investors I think, have been saying we'll sell our shares, we'll go into private credit because we just want the income. But like all new fads, I think there's going to be winners and there's going to be losers, So you have to be very careful. You just can't assume what the underlying asset is and if it's going to be okay, and what happens if that company goes busted. Now, obviously there's a lot of property credit it out there, and property is
in an immense world of pain at the moment. So I think investors have to be incredibly diligent and careful about what they're buying. When it comes to private equity, investors have to understand that the big boys. They again, if you go back to the big investor with one hundred million or whatever they have, they don't mind blowing up ten million dollars. That's why they'll put it into bitcoin, or they'll put it into something else, do you know what I mean? And they can buy private Yeah, it's
petty cash. So it comes down to adisset allocation. If you have a good fund manager that is allocating across a huge spectrum of new companies in private equity, one maybe out of one hundred will be will do really well. We hear about the canvas. We don't hear about all the ones that end up in the toilets. That's the problem.
They all talk about the ones. The winner is this horse racing, I had a winner in the two thirty at whatever Randwick. Yeah, well what about the dozens of times you didn't?
Hey, just one quick thing.
It just struck me. There it didn't enter your It didn't enter your highly sophisticated and experienced investor mind when you bought and I don't want to plug any particular bank, but when you bought a bank security that you just mentioned, don't you mind that these were the guys that are financing the private credit people anyway, the funds.
Yeah, that's true actually, and obviously yes, it was more. I obviously have missed something in that. It was more a switch out of a floating rate note into a fixed rate.
So I'm taking but the big banks, that big investment banks there behind all that anyway, aren't.
They Well I'm not up to date on that one, but it's a financing the credit market, which I guess somebody has to, Yeah, because they've taken it off their balance sheets.
Same in the US, they've taken it off their balance sheets. Is the lending and then these funds come along, but the funds find uced by banks. And we'll put that out there just for the moment. All right, Okay, we'll take short break. We've got some really good questions from Matthew and Joe and Matt and someone who likes to call themselves the average punter back in a moment, Hello,
and welcome back to The Australian's money puzzle. Maybe you and I could read them alternatively if you'd like to do that.
Yep, okay. So Matthew has asked, if the market always goes up in the long term, why wouldn't a young investor always buy a geared ETF. I don't understand the long term downside. Ultimately one is just magnifying the long term expected market return. The expected return wasn't positive long term, it wouldn't buy it in the first place. Great question and conversation with my son who at one point watched by a triple gid nazdak triple geared. I think so, yeah,
I stand to be corrected. It might be only double gid. Look at the end of the day, in theory it sounds great. But when market's four by twenty percent and your geared ETF it's gone down by double or triple the amount, you might feel as ballsy. So it depends
on your restolerance, Matthew. Like everything it. People forget James that you can have long periods of underperformance in share markets from nineteen sixty eight to the early eighties, and I'm sure you've discussed reasons why in previous podcast.
It's come up with that.
Yeah, yeah, but I think it depends how your risk tolerance works. Me personally, women tend to be more conservative. I would never consider a gard ETF or a gard ETF into a stock like nvideo. Yes, you can make lots of money in the short term, but equally you could watch your capital eroad rather quickly long term Welsh creation is done I think more patiently.
Okay, Matthew. This is never advised, by the way, of course, it's always information. But one thing I want to ask you. Theoretically, I suppose would you gear it all? Would you borrow to invest on the markets?
Never?
No, I see, okay, all right, okay, then your answer was very much in keeping with your broader worldview. All right, the average punter says, I always listen to your podcast from picking up my daughter from school. Actually, you know what we should do. We should have it. We should we should encourage people to tell us what they do when they're listening to the podcast. It's just struck me, you know, I hear all sorts of things. That was. We had a we had we had a we had
a listener who used to tell us this. Listen to us blowing the leaves during the garden cycling. All sorts of things. I wonder, what's the oddest one have to be genuine? Of course that let us know. Okay, recently says the average punter. I heard Marcus Badley, who's someone I must have on the show someday of Marcus today saying if the overnight iron ore prices are up, then the share prices of iron ore prices like for to skull go up when the ASEX opens for trading if
they're down, vice versa. Is it true? And how would I check iron ore prices before the AX opens for trading? Okay, well, the AESX opens at ten o'clock for trading these days, you can correct. I hang and get this stuff pretty easy. The London Metals Exchange would have life prices. There are nine hours behind, et cetera.
We have it on the fn Arena website. James, the iron ore price can be a little bit tricky to get hold of. It's not traded directly out of London.
Why is it tricky to get Singapore? So what's the key, mar what's the key price market for our and ore?
I think it's it's traded and Singapore that's the main one and they have different features. Yeah, and there's also the Chinese Exchange and they usually traded in futures prices. Butfn arena dot Com has an updated which you can see on the front of the website, updated all the muldity prices every morning by about eight point fifteen.
There you are average punter. All right? Do you want to read the question from due and just before we do aphic folks, which is the subject of this question is the Australian Foundation Investment Company so listed investment fund. It's the most famous of them all. I think it's the biggest of them all too. Okay, would you like to read that one, Danielle?
Yes, So Joe is asking that he's invested in AFIC over the last few years and you can't understand at the moment why the net asset's higher than the share price. I can understand where this happens for a listed investment company based on properties where the underlying valuations may not align it to the lick valuations. Interesting one, James.
I've had a we peak at the asset valuation and the latest one that provided it was really interesting, James, because the pre tax valuation versus the post tax valuation compared to the share price presents a totally different picture.
So I didn't come away with a very clear response to this one, and I'd be interested in your view because pre tax the share price is actually trading lower than the asset valuation post tax. It's yeah, yeah, which is interesting, isn't it?
Because you got stored Frank dividends.
Yeah, they do, they hold They've got a lot of them. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And all I would say is that typically your best to buy when the share price is trading at a discount. It should have done quite well because it's Lavish's holding is actually Commonwealth Bank, but they do tend to move depending on what the shareholdings are.
Although I don't know what your you've heard gens or your view, but I think some of these listed investment companies are not necessarily the preferred vehicle for the young they can to buy ats And I'm wondering whether the flow of funds has impacted on some of these discounts to the share prices.
List investment companies. I would say invariably, but I think you'd probably find actually the majority numerically trade below their asset value or tangible asset value, and the textbooks will tell you buy them when they're trading to out a discount to them. The thing is that they never know the discount. Most of them never never catch up. Some of the good ones do the better ones, and if it would be one of them. So that's point one,
and point two is as Danielle is saying. The thing about ETFs is that, especially now with active ETFs, where they can really sort of get very close to an approximate of a conventional ASX top two hundred listed investment company, their fees can be lower and they can go lower even still, So that's going on there, but for what it's worth. In many ways, it's always the case with even really good licks that they trade below the neck tangible value of all the shares in them, which is
kind of ironic. It shouldn't be the case. But in verb is I might be corrected. I'll be corrected by that. The ones that are trading at a premium will tell me very quickly. But if you have a look across the board, that's often the case, all right, Mats. Finally, Matt, last question, Like many others. I have shares in big tech in the US. I don't want to sell, but I want to protect against the falling US dollar. What
can I do as a mom slash dad investor. You're probably a dad investor, Matt, look for a couple of things. First of all, it's funny we had this conversation the other day. Over a very long period of time. The hedging doesn't really make an awful lot of difference, right, That's the first thing. Okay, second thing is any sort of hedging whatsoever. Nothing's free. If you get hedging, you pay for it.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't personally. It's not advice, but Mats talk about Greek enough Greek investing overseas with you know, even in big tech it's everybody calls the demise of the US dollar. But I don't think we're going to see the demise of the US dollar in our lifetime. James. Everybody calls the Aussie dollar at eighty cents for years, and we haven't seen eighty cents in ages.
You don't think even Trump cannot do it.
Oh, I think if Trump has a go at trying to do some of the stuff that's in Project twenty twenty five, you'll see the bond market have conniptions and you'll back off faster than the road runner.
Is your sense of its ability to remain the words reserve currency in a strong currency? Is it based on the fact that treading as such, but fact that it is the reserve currency? And so when things go wrong, ironically, even if they're sparked by the US the whole world for some money in US treasuries.
Yes, that's part of it. And it's also because it's the collateral that's used around the world those US treasuries.
Yeah.
So that's the biggest thing that's my understanding, and it's not going to be dislodged anytime soon. Nor is the US government in the Federal Reserve going to roll over and say take our hedgeomny like that easily. They can make life very difficult.
There's a bottom line where they won't jeopardize their own pre eminence in currency markets. Wow.
They don't want to give up that power anytime soon, do they? Because they've I mean, they have weaponized the US dollar geopolitically with Russia, and that's what's caused China and these other countries to be looking to increase their gold holdings and looking to create an alternative to the US dollar. But ultimately, James, it's very hard because everybody when they go out to borrow whatever they need the collateral and you're not going to buy Chinese treasury the
equivalent and all. Probably is there the liquidity to actually do it. So I think the demise of the US dollar is overstated. I think if you invest in the US you just have to take a long term view that over the balance of time, the share price capital appreciation of the shares will do you well enough. Trying to hedge currencies is even impossible for the big boys, isn't it, James, little owner immortals and.
Matt let me tell you, they get it so wrong so often that the chances you'll get right very slim. So just yes. So look, it would seem we're not talking to you, Matt, We're talking to all the mats in the world hedging. You know, really, I don't worry about it on particularly if you are a long term investor. And as for whether the US will drop just because whatever. And you didn't mention Trump, but the narrative at the moment is that you know what he plans will weaken
the US donor don't know about that either, Okay, terrific. Hey, thank you very much, Danielle. It was great to talk to you today. As always regular guests on the show.
Pleasure James. Lovely to chat with you and thank you so much for having me on.
Oh you're very welcome and lovely to have you back on this show. Okay, folks, as I have asked for a week or two, if you are enjoying the podcast, thank you, thanks for all the ratings and everything. But what would be really good would be if you would just mention it to one other person in your circle that you like it. That would be our little reward
and we'd love that. All right, communications, Let's have some more, Let's have some questions, observations, even tell us what you do when you're listening to the podcast for our own entertainment, for the audience's entertainment. All right, the email the Money Puzzle at the Australian dot com dot au. Talk to you soon.