So you're going to this community that is very angry and frustrated. And there's all this racial tension. And you know, for the first time in my life I'm being you know, I'm there. I'm the first minority police chief and all of a sudden I'm being referred to as a greasy Mexican as a speak, you know, whiner, and all sorts of things.
I'm like, hold on a second, where did all this animosity, I was like, so I quickly gathered empathy for for everything that the African American community has been going through the Asian community for all these years, just because in the past, oh, you know, 95% of the population looks like me, but the other 5% of the population is so diverse that we accept them. So that was
that was very interesting. And, you know, the hardest part was not, was not convincing the community that I was a different type of police chief, a different type of leader, because they they saw that I came and I spoke from the heart and my actions spoke louder than
my words, you know. And we quickly started bringing diversity and building a program that I called no colors, no labels initiative, which was an initiative designed to remove the preconceived notion that the police that the community had that the police were racially motivated. This is the mind shift podcast where we share real stories, real strategies that will help
you find real success. This is the place to hear from people just like you who've taken their ideas, goals and dreams from a point of inspiration to realization or when life knock them down from a point of breakdown to breakthrough. I'm your host, Dr. elevens. Let's get started with today's episode. Hey, hey, what's going on? Welcome to another episode of the mind shift podcast. I'm so
glad to have you here. Today, you'll get to hear my conversation with Hey Soos Edie Kappa, whose last tour as chief of police landed him in a city impacted by racial divisions. This led him to create and implement the innovative no colors, no labels initiative, designed to remove the preconceived notion that the police were racially motivated. In our talk, we discuss his view of 21st Century Policing, how to get rid of bad cops, the day his young son came home that changed
everything. And our common passion has foodies. Eddie Campos, an internationally recognized expert on leadership, law enforcement and security. He is the recipient of numerous awards, and was named Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Humanitarian of the year, by the n double A CP in 2017. In his 2021 book, unmasking leadership, he shares a unique look at what they don't tell you about leadership, and how to deal with the adversity. that comes with being the
leader. Eddie Kappa Welcome to the MindScape podcast How you doing today, sir? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and looking forward to a great conversation. Absolutely. I always love talking to leaders. And more importantly, you're going to be the first guest that I've spoken to who wasn't just in law enforcement, but was the chief of police. So I'm really excited to unpack your journey in law
enforcement. First of all, for the record on the record, thank you so much for your service, because we are in 2021 at the time of recording this. Those who can look back at history and see 2020 will understand the significance of a conversation at a time such as this and you live through it. Absolutely. It's been an adventure, that's for sure. Yeah. Where are you coming in from today? Where you at today in the world?
So I'm home. I'm in El Paso, Texas, you know, right up right up between the United States and Mexico border. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. So tell us a little bit about your background. Any guests? Introduce yourself to the audience? Yeah, so yeah, I was born in El Paso, Texas to a single parent. My mother was actually raised by my grandmother mom was always working. Two to three jobs keep keep a roof over our head and fetus, you know, and like, that's where I got my work ethic
from is from her. You know, born and raised in El Paso, like I said, started my law enforcement career here with the El Paso County Sheriff's Office to 20 years, retired as the chief deputy number two person on the totem pole and then went on to become the chief of police in ector County and then the chief of police in Marshall, Texas. I left Marshall Texas after three years and that's an interesting
conversation in itself. Then came home opened up my one of my businesses, America's best strategic security group started my journey for my PhD and realize that I wasn't done in
law enforcement. I took a job as the state director for the Council on law enforcement education and training for the state of Oklahoma was the state director overseeing the the regulatory licensing and education and training of all peace officers for there and then, last year in December, I decided throw in the towel call it quits after a long 27 year journey. I'm back home wrapping up my PhD and opened up another company in 2019 leading to adversity and just moving
forward married. Three beautiful kids and a very annoying seven pound Yorkie. I got to love the seven pound Yorkie. Right. I've got a 12 pound mulshi on the other side of my studio here, so I understand. Well, thank you so much for the background. I let's start with the wind at law enforcement first pick your your interest? Well, that's a good question. Actually, a long time ago, you know, growing up growing up by myself, you know, as a single as
the only child. You know, I had a lot of time to use my imagination. And, you know, I always was always playing bad guys. Good Guys, cops, robbers, Cowboys, Indians. And I had an uncle who was in law enforcement. He was kind of my father figure at the time, you know, so I kind of wanted to follow in his footsteps. So that's where it started. Then back, you know, back in the set back in the late 70s, early 80s.
You know, cop shows were a big thing you know you Starsky and Hutch, TJ hooker, hillside Hill, Street Blues, you know, the Miami Vice came along. So I was like, hey, I want to be one of those guys. So that's how it all really started. Nice. Nice. So you, you're getting your PhD right now? What is that in? Yeah, so my PhD is in public service leadership with a concentration in criminal justice.
Wow, wow. You know, I just want to stay for the record right now for the audience you have been, I was so impressed with the background, and so impressed with what people had to say about you. And give us some context. And I can link up these videos that I'm referencing right now, where, I don't know if it was your retirement ceremony. I don't know if it was, you know, moving from one position. I don't know, there were some testimonial videos that you've got on your website.
And man, I just there were three and four minutes long, and I couldn't leave the video, cuz you're listening, I was listening to some individuals who just were speaking from their heart. A couple of them teared up in speaking about you. And I'd love to have you share with our audience. What was that moment? And tell us about that moment? Yeah, so that was actually when I when I decided to leave the Marshall Police Department back
in 2017. It was my going away farewell dinner that they put the community through for me. And that's an interesting, that's an interesting topic. You know, Marshall, Texas is is a unique place. If anybody's familiar with it, you know, it's a community that's very racially divided. It's got a lot of issues. It played a big role during the, during the slavery days, it you know, they used to sell and trade slaves in the
town square. So, you know, in 2014, when I was hired to become the chief of police there, I was hired to bridge that racial gap and bring community and 21st Century Policing and change the culture. It was kind of funny though, because, you know, it's predominantly a white Caucasian
area. And the people that hired me, were very progressive city manager, very progressive Mayor at the time and City Council, and they want to change and they wanted to, you know, erase, erase that bad history and start all over. So you know, they weren't going to hire another white guy. So they were definitely never going to hire an African American. So they settle for a caramel Mexican guy like me. You know, I was I wasn't, I wasn't too wide or too
dark, I guess. So. They brought me in, I was their first minority police chief, and leading a group of set in their ways good ol boy. Police Department was primarily 98%, Caucasian having to listen to their first minority police chief, you know, kind of imagine how that went, like? Well, you know, it's an interesting and you come from El Paso at that time, a population you have about a million people now. And you go to Marshall, Texas, which has a population at that
time of about 26,000. Okay, and then you had the demmick, you had the demographics of what you just described? What was your biggest challenge? When you first First of all, why did you take the role? Tell us a little about why you didn't, you know, honestly, I'm a visionary. I'm a dreamer. I always think that I can fix and change the world. And I think that it's, it's, we should always be trying to make things a better place. And I really thought I could make that place
better. And you know what I did? I mean, you know, we went in there and you asked me what the biggest challenge was? Well, the biggest challenge when I first got there was the culture shock. I mean, the culture shock was just unbelievable. To hear the way people's talk in that area, you know, never heard the N word thrown around as much as is, as I mean, the only time I would hear the N word is when somebody was talking about it on the
news. I mean, So diverse and accepting of everybody, you know, it's it's just the Hispanic tradition. We accept everybody, we love everybody. So you go to this community that is very angry and frustrated, and there's all this racial tension. And you know, for the first time in my life, I'm being you know, I'm there. I'm the first minority police chief and all of a sudden I'm being referred to as a greasy Mexican as a speak, you know, whiner, and all sorts
of things. I'm like, hold on a second, where did all this animosity from is like, so I quickly gathered empathy for for everything that the African American community has been going through the Asian community for all these years, just because in El Paso, you know, 95% of the population looks like me, but the other 5% of the population is so diverse that we accept them. So that was
that was very interesting. And, you know, the hardest part was not, was not convincing the community that I was a different type of police chief, a different type of leader, because they, they saw that I came, and I spoke from the heart and my actions spoke louder than
my words, you know. And we quickly started bringing diversity and building a program that I called no colors, no labels initiative, which was an initiative designed to remove the preconceived notion that the police that the community had at the police were racially motivated. And they caught on to it, you know, and during those three years, we lowered the crime rate by 20%. We went from six homicides to one homicide for a town with 26,006 homicides is is a lot went down to one.
But you asked what the biggest challenge was the biggest challenge was getting the police department on board, getting the officers on board. I they the more some of them wanted to come on board, but they were so fearful of the old guard that was there. Yes, that still believed that, you know, policing should be done, you know, john wayne old school type of way. So that was the biggest challenge that I had was was bringing them trying to get them to change their, their their
mentality. But you spoke about those videos. You know, that was the greatest success story of my life. When when I realized that everything we did, all the heartaches, the tears, the blood, the sweat, it was all worth it. Because the people that I was hired to protect, saw that and actually smoke from their heart. And it was one of the biggest tear jerking moments of my life. But that was just really awesome.
I gotta tell you, I'm touched by it, because of you know, there's several dynamics that I see from a leadership perspective. So you leave a position in El Paso, Texas, you take on this role as chief of police. And you've got, you've got, you've got promoters and people sitting by your side who hired you who are like, we want change, you're the guy. But now you've got two adversaries, right? You've got the criminal aspect, right, that you still
have to do your job. But then you've got your compadres, your partner's your brothers, who you also have to, you've got you've got your like, in between two forces, right, an old school regime that has a mindset challenge, right. And then you've got still to deal with the law of the law, right, doing the job of protecting citizens.
It's an interesting battle, I think, and and I think that was what I was really impressed by when I was reading your backstory, because you, you, you didn't have 100% of the have either side behind you, right, that the criminals certainly weren't on your side, they didn't care what you look like. And then you've got leaders and your brothers in crime, to talk about how you handled the, the
mental side of it. All right, because there's practice like you were a practiced season executioner of, of being a police officer, right, that was that was not a new thing for you. But talk about the mental side of of this new challenge, because you said you instantly grabbed the empathy side of you know, because of you know, you had the empathy from the 5% of
the population in El Paso. But man, I just want to figure out how did you handle the mental battles going on between the criminal side of doing the job and then your brothers? Who are you got to fight with you? Well, you know, the, the criminal side was easy. Dealing with the criminals was a piece of cake because it is you knew where you stood with them. They were the bad guys, that was their job. That was our job to the bad guy, right.
But when you're dealing with a group of individuals who you know, are basically right at the point of being judicious, it's kind of hard to tell you're
walking a very thin line. And as far as the mental health aspect that's, that's basically the reason I left you know, I had a five year contract with with them and I called it I called it a day after three years, because I did see, you know, I took my family with me, my wife and my kids with me, my wife's a professional, she's also an executive in in the field of education, and she, you know, she went through a lot during
that movement. You know, she she was used to working in state of the art schools here in El Paso. And then we went, she went to work in in a district that had a one school building, there was 100 years old, you know, that my children, you know, my children were so loved. I mean, while they still are there, they're
loving and caring. And I started noticing a change in them, you know, they were raised, they started, you know, I remember the one day when I said, you know, whatnot, like, I can't do this when when we've got to change this. My son came home and he says, Hey, Dad, is it okay? If Kevin and the black kid come over? I said, Excuse me. And you record Kevin and the black kid come over, I suppose the black kid have a name? And he's like, yeah, so what is it?
Who knows, Antonio? And I'm like, then why is he the black kid in Atlanta? Antonio? Well, that's what they call me. They call me the brown kid, you know? And they call him the black kid. I said, so why does the white kid have a name? And I don't know, you know, and I was like, yeah, this isn't working for me anymore. So, you know, at that point, you know, we started looking to leave the area, and we started applying to different
areas. And, you know, I was a finalist in Port Arthur and Galveston and Corpus Christi, you know, some major cities. And here's the funny thing. And here's the funny thing about this, this town that you know, that I live in, the funny thing about people, and how it affects your your psyche, your mental is that, you know, they didn't want me there are at least the people that I was hired to leave the police officers didn't want me
there. Because there's police, police officers really two things, they hate the way things are, and they change. And especially when you have a culture issue, they don't want to change. So them and then I had an issue with a local reporter, you know, who was married to the district attorney's office, you know, she was involved in a hit and run and back in the old days, they would have just covered it up, especially because, you know, she was involved in a hit and run with with a with an African
American female. And she's a white, predominant, wealthy, independent woman, and you get he married to the assistant district attorney. So they tried
covering that up. And I was like, No, no, so I ended up having to arrested and you know, and I think that's how I won the community over by doing things like that, that were outside the norm of what they were so used to, you know, and, you know, as I applied for these positions, and even to this day, you know, it's funny, because, you know, they have this resentment, resentment towards me, that they make, they go out of their way to make sure that every time my name comes out in the news
media, they go out of the way to bash me and send information to, which is all false narratives, of course, I mean, it's just, it's just strange. So it did play a big role in my psyche, and they had a lot of decisions that I had to make. But you know, what the problem is, is that you know what, I always do the right thing, because it's
the right thing to do. And, you know, one of those adversaries once asked somebody, it's like, why is it that the harder we try to break him, the higher he bounces, you know, and it's like, well, because I'm resilient. I'm like a rubber band, you keep stretching me, the stronger I get. So it's just like, Bring it on, you know. And in 2017. I guess we did a lot of great things. In that time. In 2017, I was named Martin Luther King humanitarian of the Year by
the Nash, by the NAACP. And he was one of the biggest honors I've ever got. So it's funny, because every time I talk about that time between 2014 and 2017, it's I consider it my biggest success, yet one of my biggest failures, you know, an interesting, interesting, wow. You know, I think inside of this, and I'd like to unpack, you know, different insights, it's really interesting to hear you get that and again, you were also named humanitarian of the
Year in 2017. I love what Robert Evans said in his he was one of the citizens in Marshall, Texas, and one of the videos and he said, he said, You have done more for that town than anyone ever had. And he was willing to stake anyone who would ever do in the future, obviously, one person's perspective. And I think what I wanted to state was in hearing that, in preparation for our conversation, as well as some of the others, and then hear you talk about how it felt
to sit in the seat. I always say to people, that people look at leaders sometimes and don't realize the amount of adversity, the amount of criticism, the amount of fight that comes at leaders. And I love how you just said that you just don't understand how resilient I am. The more you come at me, the more I stretch like a rubber band. And I want I want to talk about leadership in that regard,
as we as we continue to go. But I want to, before we leave policing, I want to talk about, share with our audience your definition of 21st Century Policing, as you see it. Yeah. So you know, I, I've always been that one outcast, that outliner that delays always thought that policing was in the need of reform. And let me let me just make this very clear,
because I love policing. I love law enforcement, I love my brothers and sisters and 99% of us are in it, because we're why we want to do the right thing. We're in it, because we love this calling, it's our passion. But as the old saying goes, the squeaky wheel is the one who gets the oil, you know, and it's that 1% that makes us all look bad, that tarnishes the badge and ruin it ruins it for
everybody. You know, we're not, we're not all bad, you know, and 21st Century Policing, to me is a reminder of what policing is supposed to be. We're public servants. And anytime that I pinned a badge on somebody, whether it was as the chief deputy or the chief, or as a state director, I always told them this. I said, Look, don't ever forget who you work for. It is in your title, it is in your name. You're a public servant, you're a servant of the public.
You believe that that badge and the gun is what gave you that authority, you are sadly mistaken, because your authority came from the people that, that that voted and they voted and put in place the legislators who enacted the laws that they saw fit to enact, and it is your job and your responsibility to uphold those laws. And if you think that those people can take that power away from you, try it. And we'll see what happens.
That's what 21st Century Policing is, it's a reminder of going back to the basics of who we were and what we are. And I'm a big believer in procedural justice. You know, and I have a lot of people look at me, and it's funny when I talk about procedural justice, that they don't understand what it is. So I just totally simplify it. And procedural justice is basically something you learned in kindergarten. procedural justice is treat others the way you want
to be treated. treat people fairly treat people kindly give people their respect. And at the end, they will respect you, they might not agree with you. But it'll be a respectful interchange. So that's what 21st Century Policing is to me and you know, it just be it would be really nice to see and and don't get me wrong, we're all trying to get there. It's just those bad apples that they keep getting in the way and I don't know how we're gonna get rid of them.
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, I heard you on an interview, discuss. And again, coming off the heels of what happened in 2020. We will go down all the names, everyone can find the names, most notably in 2020, probably George Floyd, and then the narrative around defunding the police. Record your debt, your description, I actually, in my seat as an African American, through through the tension through the emotions through the period. And we're again, we're not healed in from that period.
But in thinking about it, there was never once you know, because there was, you know, you let the words three words, how three words could be so misconstrued, in my mind, defund the police, like when we say we're just going to get rid of police, like the last thing I want is to get rid of police. Right? But then you had that narrative on one
side of the side. And then you had the other side of it, which was more of a reforming narrative, meaning let's take the dollars and do something better with the dollars, let's improve the areas that need the improvement because it isn't 100% of right. It's never been love to hear your thoughts on on that. Those three words, right. defund the police to you as a chief, as well as a citizen. Well, you see, and that's the thing is that I think a lot of
people are misusing the words. I mean, there's some people who totally want the front, the police, they totally want that and get that. And then there's people who don't quite understand what defunding the police really means. When you talk about defending the police, you're actually talking about a reallocation of funds. Okay, police officers were meant to be enforcers of the peace to keep the peace and enforce the law.
Okay, so that was our duty. Our duty was never to have to be involved with dealing with people having mental episodes or mental issues. We're not psychiatrists, we're not therapists. We're not doctors, you know, we get called out to to medical emergencies, you know, we can call that to medical episodes, psychological episodes, issues, dealing with addiction and things like that. Well, we're not the experts in
that field. You know, so, you know, I remember somebody said, Well, we should strip we should take all the money away. We give law enforcement for mental health is like, really, you know what that dollar sign is? It's zero. We get no dollars for mental health issues. That's not that's not our job. You know, it's not our function. So you
want to be funded? Well, how do you want to take it when it doesn't exist, you know, so I think that people should really Utilize the word reallocation, I don't get me wrong, there are some agencies such as Dallas, San Antonio, Austin, la New York City that actually have a Albuquerque New Mexico has a component of psychologists and cognition clinicians that actually work for the police department and are deployed with the officer when they go out
there. While sometimes when you're dealing with a person with mental episodes or mental issues, you got to remember that every time they see the uniform, they've usually had a bad experience with that, you know, so it would make sense to detach the both Yes, if they're assigned to the police department, take that funding, create a new division, a new agency, that the first responder, the psychiatrists or psychologists would go out first, and then PD, the police department would kind of be
standing in the wings just to make sure that there's no violence or anything like that, but kind of sight unseen. So that's what a reallocation of funds would do for something like that. And it's not a defunding. It's just a reallocation, you know, when you talk about Austin PD lost something like $4 million. And those $4 million, were was money that was allocated for other things, just like I described.
But of course, a lot of the chief in the police department say, Oh, my God, you just, you just decrease my budget by 4 million. It was for services you shouldn't be doing anyway, a couple more questions on policing. And we'll move over to what I really want to talk about as some of your concepts of leadership and your upcoming book, unmasking leadership. So we're gonna get there in just a second. But in terms of police in general, and you said it earlier, you're not sure how
that 1% gets changed. Because it if you if you had a magic wand today, short of just zapping those individuals from the planet, if you were in charge of the mission, and you are like, Hey, I think these are the three or four steps we would have to take to eliminate eradicate, like, you know, it's a big, big task, right? It's just it's easy for you, Eddie, you've been in the game for 27 years, just come up with a plan to eradicate, right eradicate it. Right? What has to happen with that? 1%?
accountability, accountability, accountability? In what way? What does accountability mean to you as an officer of the law as a chief police? How would you enforce that accountability? So so let me put you this way. When I was when I was a field officer, I had a different mentality, right? Because I didn't understand the administration part. I didn't understand the decisions that were made and why and I didn't
understand the liabilities. I understood my liabilities, one of the things that we need to change is accountability. And we need to also understand is that peace officers, police officers, we're human beings, and we we suffer from everything, just like the general public. You know, we have, you know, alcoholism, we have addiction. We have infidelities, we have high divorce rates, we have budget, we have debt issues.
We're all human. So you can't expect us to be Superman, even though you're hold us to a higher level. But but they are rules and regulations that we have in place. Right. One of the things that I noticed once I became a chief is that you may be the chief, but it's also really hard for you to hold people accountable. And you know, you have police officers have rights. and rightfully so they should have rights. Right.
But sometimes, you know, you have officers who are those bad apples are getting second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth chances, because of a little thing called civil service, you know, and union rights. And don't get me wrong. The union is a fantastic tool for peace officers. It's a wonderful instrument that the unions do some really good work to to make sure that our police officers are taken care of. But it's their job to protect their their membership. That's that's their
job. And that's you can't blame us what they do. Right. Yeah. I think that there needs to be a stronger commitment, a stronger relationship between the police chief and the union to where not right is right and wrong is wrong. You know, and and if, if this officer is wrong, he should be punished, and maybe even stripped of his badge and I'd give him a second opportunity. Now, I believe in second opportunities all night long. Okay. Yeah, if I hadn't had some second opportunities, God knows
where I would be. But I never crossed that line in my in my workplace. You know, and the proudest day one of the proudest days that I had last year was was there was an incident in California, where there was a murder of a wealthy female. And the deputy sheriff that was securing the house apparently found a set of keys to the house, and he was going back to the house every night, taking
valuables from the house. While you know that they had a security camera system in the house, and eventually became an issue and that was the first time I'd ever seen this. I saw that I saw the I saw the sheriff and the union president, side by side, both declaring that this guy's career was over. Because it was wrong, it was the wrong thing to do. And the union said, we will refund his all his all the years of his membership, but we're not defending this guy.
We're not. And that was the first time I ever saw something like that. So that would happen more often. You know, if that would happen more often than we could definitely start getting rid of these bad apples, you know. And then, of course, if, unfortunately, you know, this is something that's hard, is getting rid of the, you know, the buddy system, it's, you know, a lot of people get away
for things. And that's the one thing I have a problem with leadership is that leadership blinds itself, a lot of leaders want to be popular in light. Well, you know, when I became that police chief, I didn't take the rule to become your friend, I became the rule to accomplish a mission. While they will treat you with respect and dignity, it is my job to accomplish the mission by providing you with all the adequate tools and
things like that. But doesn't mean we need to go out and drink beer and chase women together. You had a you have a book coming out. And first of all, thank you for your your, your sharing, you know, a little bit of the behind the scenes. And I'm surely we're just barely scratching the surface. But leadership is hard in you have a saying that leaders of today are being placed in environments that set them up for failure. Tell us a bit about why you feel that way.
Yeah, so so you know, I've sent them different on different boards, on different boards, and hiring boards and things like that. And I've gotten those I've interviewed for a lot of positions. And one of the things that I always hear from city managers or mayors or the hiring committee is we want you to hold people accountable. We want you to change the culture, we want you to implement 21st Century Policing. Well, what they really mean is, that's what the
community is asking. And we need to hire somebody that checks the boxes. But please don't rock the boat. Because as soon as you start rocking the boat, shit happens, and we don't like it. But we're not going to tell you that because if we verbally tell you that, then you might not take the job, because you're not hearing what you want to hear. So I have you know, lately, you know, I got a compliment on one.
And the other one, I was told that I was a little bit narcissistic for saying that, but I said, Look, don't ask me to come into your agency and take it over if what you really don't want is change. And you don't want accountability. If you don't really want
accountability. What I mean by accountability is that you're going to let me come in with my own disciplinary matrix that your your your your attorneys will approve, and everything and you're going to let me handle things the way things need to be handled, or you got to be micromanaging all my decisions. Because if that's the case, I don't need to be here. You know, and one person is like, wow, no one's really put it to us like that. And you're right, you know, we do that. But we're so
we're not going to hire you. But thank you for telling us and then the other ones like how do you come in here and tell us how to run our city. And I'm like, I'm going to tell you how to run your city. You told me this is what you want it I'm asking you, is this really what you want, because this is what I'm going to offer you and I got a track record of that. You know, I'm a leader, I've been in leadership.
You know, I've basically been in leadership my entire life, but formerly, I guess, you know, the last 15 years of my life, I've been in a in a formal title, leadership position, right. And here's the thing, I do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. It might not be the right thing in your eyes, but it's the right thing to do for the entire organization and for the vision of the mission in order to accomplish it. Right.
So when I say when they tell your hands and they put you in a place to fail, is that you know, as you come in as the leader, especially when you come in from an outsider, you have all these obstacles, you have to please the city manager, you have to please a city council, you have to please your constituents, which is the community you're supposed to serve, and you have to please the police officers. You ever tried pleasing everybody? It's impossible to do. Right? Okay. So you're gonna
ruffle feathers. And the people, as I call them, you know, the people who basically have the strings, the puppet masters have to understand that they have to let you hold people accountable if you want to change. And the thing is that the minute that they something goes wrong, because you know, will will you just make the comment, for instance, in East Texas where I said the perception that the community has at the police were racially motivated. You know what the police officers heard.
They didn't hear that it was a perception that the community had they heard the police are racist. That's what they heard. So they went totally against the grain. Ryan everything they went, you know, they they're like, Oh, my God, he's doing this. He's doing that he's making this change. We've never done this. Well, change is inevitable. You know, you go to sleep today. You wake up tomorrow, you look in the mirror and you see a new wrinkle or you realize you're getting a new
pound. That's changed. It's inevitable. So those puppet masters, they need to allow you to do your job. That's why they hired you. You hired you for the experience and the education, you know, what works. So let us move forward without tying our hands. And, you know, you can't say you can't go out and publicly say you want one thing. But behind the doors, say you want something else, right? Because you can accomplish both missions. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's
an evolution. And you know, across the board, this is not just in policing, let's be clear, listening audience smart enough to know this. This is in every aspect of business, this is in parenting. This is in other social aspects of life. This is in corporate America, this challenge of leadership when a company and or business mission purpose environment, organization wants to make a change, there's always the the pole, it's always a tug of war.
And at some point, you tip over where more people are for the mission than against the mission, at least at that point. And I know that's, you know, might be where you're, you know, where your experience has brought you to this this point where you're coming out with this book, unmasking leadership, but I really want to dive into your thinking, you've got a company leader, leading through
adversity. And these topics are important to me, because as I talk about on this show a lot we we get caught up with the idea of of the success side of the journey, right? The idea, the inspiration that turns into realization, you've accomplished a lot of goals. And a lot of times we chase these goals. But what we don't talk a lot about is the the moments of adversity, the times when life knocks us down the time when we get punched in the mouth when you get that person who looked like
an ally to start with. And now they're an adversary. And the world doesn't know it, but you know it because it's behind closed doors, right? And this is in any context, in any business. It happens all the time. Sometimes it could be a husband and wife, who were the one spouse with the other starts a business. The other one says, Yeah, go ahead and do that. Leave the job, start the business. And then three months later, the other spouse is like, what the heck did you quit the
job. So it doesn't matter how you slice it, right? Talk, talk to us about some of your leadership philosophies. And what you've, you've learned a lot, not just from policing, but in all of the different roles that you've had. What inspired you to write the book? Yeah, the experience. You know, when I took on leadership roles, I never quite expected it to be this way. You know, you watch movies, you read books, you, you follow history, and that's the
bad thing. Like with our educational system, our education system is flawed. It doesn't teach you the truth, it teaches you what it wants you to know. Oh, me say that again? Yeah, I mean, you know, a little do I know that dude. And I know that if I didn't really need a PhD to continue to ruin my career successfully, I would have gone to a trade school and learned a skill because that's exactly where we're headed nowadays. I mean, you know,
certain certificates. I mean, Google just started a certificate program, that, that industry, it's cheaper, it's quicker, it's faster, and it gives you a skill that is actually needed and implemented today. You know, I mean, so that's, those are some of the things the reason that I wrote the book was that, you know, I
learned a lot of lessons. And you know, and a lot of times, you're criticized for not knowing what you don't know, at the time, because you don't know, because you're learning, then you're criticized because you know, what, you know, then you're criticized for that. So everybody goes around
criticizing everything. And one of the things I love the most is I got people out there, you know, as 27 years in law enforcement, and because of the way I am, I've made a lot of enemies have upset a lot of people and I get that, you know, and and they go around talking about what a horrible leader I am and how terrible I am of a person and yada, yada, yada, yada yadi, but then you look at their background, what have you done? What have you done in your
life? That gives you the ability to talk about my leadership ability. You know, what have you accomplished? not knocking, not knocking them, but it's just what have you done? What have you led? Who have you led? You know, where is your your credentials to be able to tell me that I can't lead. So what the book does, it basically uncovers, let's call the unmasking leadership because it unmasks the things they don't tell you about leadership as you're coming up. You know, it's
lonely at the top. You know, if you if you decide to if you decide to keep a pet as a snake, it's probably gonna bite you twice. You know, I've heard that it's a it's a it's okay to piss people off. Because guess what, I'm not here to be your friend. You want a friend, I will go buy some ice cream somewhere, but I'm not your friend. You know, I am i i'm going to respect you. You can respect me. We're going to work together we're going to accomplish the mission.
Leadership is about accomplishing the mission while you're serving your community while you're serving your your your subordinates. But people often confuse it with a friendship thing. You know, for instance, one of the chapters in my book is, you know, nobody told me that it was okay to fail, it was okay to lose, I always thought that everything had to be executed perfectly. Because what what would people say? If we fail? What are people
gonna say? Well, I have an entire chapter devoted to, you know, the art of losing, you know, if you're not failing, if you're not failing, that means you're just not trying hard enough. And, you know, there's no failing, you know, there's only opportunity, and you keep moving forward. You know, I've got a whole chapter devoted to pissing people off that, you know, it's okay. It's okay to
piss people off. You know, you might not disagree behind the closed doors, when you're around the staff, the conference table, and you're you're arguing about an issue or a topic, but at the end of the day, it's that leaders decision, because he's the one who's going to have to fall on the sword, whether it
works or not. So it talks about that, you know, and then it talks about perception, you know, people like I was saying earlier, leadership has been diluted, the word leadership has been diluted, and you can see it in the last four or five in the last six years. Look at the choices we've had for president, those were the best choices we had, really, he said exactly what I need aim for. That's all we got. I mean, I'm, you know, how many people we have in the United States, but I know, it's like a
whole lot of people. And that was it. That's what we got. It's like, wow. And the reason is, is that, because people pick sides now, it's not about what's the truth, it's not what's about right, it's loyalty to a party or loyalty to a person and it's not loyalty to the mission. And while you have to be loyal to the mission, doesn't mean you have to treat people like like crap, you know, because you can't do it yourself. You have
to bring people with you. And you know, I've had some of my some of the people that have worked for me have told me, You are the most difficult person to work for. But my god, you know, what we love what you do. I mean, we got, you know, had this one guy, you know, he's a former lieutenant. And, you know, I remember, he would be like, you remember when we would have come to your office, and we'd have those screaming matches at each other. And we'd yell and I told you,
you were an idiot. And you said, I was an idiot, too. And then I walked out the door, and we still got the thing done, and we accomplished it. And the community was all happy, and they loved it. Because I missed those days, man, I missed the days of making a difference. And that's the difference is we made a difference. You know, it made a difference. It didn't make a difference for one person, it made a difference for an entire organization, an entire
community. It was it was it was it involved, everybody did it didn't benefit one color or one race it in, that's what leadership is missing. You know, leadership is missing. The truth. The fact everybody's so interested with just being first or supporting their candidate, and a lot of people have diluted leadership, because they're more interested in who I'm going to be. I'm going to believe what the leader believes, because it benefits me in this mass.
Yes, yes. I've heard. Yeah. And and, and this is what I'm asking leadership talks about talks about all of these things that you're going to go through and leadership and you have to have some tough skin. And you know, after 27 years of doing things my way, I have learned that I probably could have taken an easy road could have taken an easier road, there's a lot of easier path and leadership leadership, not an easy road. It's not let me ask you this question. Are leaders
born? Or are they made? I love in your opinion, it's actually a question in my book. Leaders are made, okay, leaders are made there, they've you may be born with the with the attributes of being a great leader. And unfortunately, if you're not mentored or matured or molded, or guided into that leadership role, we might not know you were a great leader until you get you're put in a position of a crisis situation where your ability is exposed, but it was made because of that.
It wasn't Oh, you've always been a natural leader and things like that, you know. So leaders, leadership is taught you're made doesn't mean that you're going to be the world's greatest leader or the most charismatic leader or anything like that. But leadership is something that, that basically an American, let me rephrase that. Life makes you a leader. And it makes you a leader, by the experiences and the mistakes and
the failures that you make. And it only makes you a leader if you actually learn from those mistakes, and continue to make. No I love that. Right. So what is it about? You said something that is near and dear to my heart, and that is it's lonely at the top. I know coming up in my early years, fortunately, a young leader at the age of 20 got a leadership position at
that point. And all my friends were doing something different and on The outside in as the last couple of decades have passed through from entrepreneurship to different leaders hiring hundreds and hundreds of people training and all this other crazy stuff as you have done in 27 years as well. You come to the realization that is actually
lonely up here. It's not just lonely, because maybe there's only one or two people that are in your circle, as far as you know, either mentorship, guidance, counsel advisory peer group, if you will. But if one or two of those people don't all the way believe in what you're doing, then that can be part of the problem, which you've eloquent, you know, put here, but then you've got the downstream side of it. Where do you turn? Who do you turn to? when things really get tough?
Are there are there? Are there books? Are there certain mentorship groups that you've been a part of? How do you because I know exactly what you mean, when you say it is lonely at the top? Who do you turn to when you need help? So that's a that's a very interesting question. So let me let me put to use real quick. So when I was coming up, I always thought well, the answers in the books, the answers in the books, and I would read the books. And then I would implement what the
book said. And then I fell on my face. And then I would read a different book, and I would do with that books. And then I fell on my face. You know, and this was when I left Marshall was one of the things I left away saying is like, how did everything that was so right, go so wrong. I followed the books, I followed my What, what, who, at the time who I considered mentors, I did what they did, and it went wrong. And basically, it's all
about perception. You know, leadership is a is based on the perception that the people have of you as their leader. does, it has nothing to do with your leadership capabilities, or qualities, it has to do with their perception and their
mindset at the time. Okay. So who do you turn to at that time, I didn't know who the hell, I was, like, what the hell, I went to Oklahoma had another mess up there, you know, I was, it was kind of funny and took over an organization that had created its own internal succession plan. And all of a sudden, when they hired this outsider who came in, it messed up the whole, their whole succession planning, anywhere, the outside, it was the outside and all of a sudden, I'm the mouse in the
snake pit. And I'm like, well, who do you turn to? To? I did not know who I tell you who I turned to. I turned to the Lord, for to God, I love that. But, but let me tell you, I've always had a contentious relationship with him, you know, because he doesn't do things on my time. And that bothers me. You know, and I have a hard time accepting that. Okay. So when they say it's contentious, it's contentious on one side, right? He doesn't know there was a
fight. He's just like, he's not aware of that. So that's why I created leading through adversity, you know, leading through adversity is a sounding board. And because I saw that there was no place where leaders could turn when they needed to talk to someone. So we did through adversity became a sounding board, I developed this I networked with some people. And I said, Look, man, if you ever find yourself in these positions that you need to talk, or just just call us
up, send us an email. You know, we we started a coaching mentoring program, we started, we started calling, you know, we started calling vent off, you know, it was it's a subscription program, you subscribe to the event off and, you know, CEOs or chiefs, they'll call me up and they'll just be like, God, you know, what the hell? And I'm like, oh, I've been there, brother. But but at least they cannot get it off their chest. And then I can say, Well, this is what I did. And it didn't
work. This is what I did. And it did work. But then now they have a peer unequal who me basically like, hey, let's say you're, you know, confidential agreement. Let's just say you're the police chief of x. And you call and you're venting to me, you're telling me you're, I'm not gunning for your job, man. That's right. Yeah. So you can tell me whatever you want. My benefit is in giving you the
right advice. So you can tell some other chief to use our subscription service, you know, because now I'm trying to grow the company. It has nothing to do with me going after your job, right? You know, in other chief jobs that I had, you would vent to your number two. But what are his number twos aspirations? take yours to become number one, there was number one. So you sit there and you tell an absentee manager and what is he going to do? Hey, see, you know what he
said about you? Right? So that's why leaders leaving through adversity was created because I didn't know who to turn to. So now we hope that we've given people an option. There's somebody that I love it. I love it. And so for those listening here, I mean, what what Eddie is referring to here is call it a couple of things, call it a mastermind group, call it an advisory group, call it a peer advisory group, there are lots of names
that float around. But if you're a leader, no matter what stage of the game you're at, you've got to have people you can turn to who have an unbiased, and they don't have an agenda for why they're about to say what they're about to say to you. They can listen empathetically, they can, they are also in roles where they've likely either gone through what you're going through, and they can share how they handled it good, bad or
indifferent. And I think that that's one of the things as as a leader, no matter what stage stage, you are young leader, early leader, mid tier, or seasoned. I personally have had a mentor in my corner since 2000. Sorry, 1997 was when I first really started understanding the power of having mentorship and leadership close to me, outside of my domain, completely unbiased about what the work. In fact, I prefer to go to people who don't do what I do. Like, just don't
do what I do. If you don't do what I do, you cannot possibly have an agenda for why you're about to say what you're about to say. And I think that's what you're doing with leadership, you know, leading through adversity is creating a platform, right, so I was gonna ask you the question, but you probably are, I probably already know, you're gonna say I'll ask you anyway. What is it that you wish you knew about leadership before you ever start it? I wish I knew I wish I knew not
to take No, I'm kidding. Anyway, get me wrong. I love what I do. I love being in leadership roles in those positions. But honestly, people people have often asked me, Do you have regrets in life? And I'll be honest, I have one regret in life. I can't do anything about it now. And that was that I never served in the military. And that's my biggest regret in life. Oh, wow. That we actually share a similar story like I I look, man, that's so interesting. You said that.
Yeah, that's my biggest regret. Other than that, anything I've ever done, good, bad, or indifferent. I don't regret it. I did it. I don't got time from regrets. I'm 48 years old. I'm turning the final. I don't say the final chapter. But I'm, I'm a lot closer to going downhill than I am uphill, you know, I'm saying. So all I got to do is learn from the mistakes I made. And that's a bad thing is that, you know, people don't let you
learn from your mistakes. You know, I know people who who who will still say, Yeah, I don't like him or I disagree with him because of this. Well, at that time, that's who I was about 10 years later, you give me another chance to get to know who I am, you know? Yeah. But yeah, so I just want to touch bases on one thing you said, mentors, mentors, mentors are the
greatest thing. You know, I was blinded by this illusion of people that I used to hold EPA to a pedestal, you know, and those people were usually people that were in my circles, you know, other chiefs, other sheriffs or directors are stuff like that. But the best mentor and the one that I've known for the last 20 years, and I didn't realize it, what he really was, was my mentor, up until about
2014. He's a very successful businessman, very influential men in our community, who doesn't want to be a police chief doesn't want to be Sheriff doesn't want to be anything to do with law enforcement. And I learned some of the most valuable lessons in life from him. And then I have implemented and have made a world of a difference in the way I do things nowadays. But he's not in
my circle of my career path. You know, he's a businessman, I am to now but two different business models and everything. And the reason my business is so successful, I owe it to him. You know, as we bring this show to a close, I want to give people an opportunity to connect with you. First of all, I'm sure that when your book comes out on masking leadership, there's going to be a way for them to
get it. But I don't know if it's on pre order, but tell us how people can connect with you where they should find you after today to get a hold of the leadership concepts that you are bringing to market. Yeah, absolutely. So you know, you can reach me at his suits any company calm, that's my website. You'll see all the testimonials, the videos and my international speaking that I do
and things like that. You can reach us at huizhou Scott buy.com, which is where our book gets our it's the it's the unmasking leadership website. And of course to the business of leading through adversity calm. You know, everybody asks, Why so many websites and it's like, well, there's three different
functions of what we do. And if you put all that stuff in one website, you'd be like, way too much into Congress and we don't want if you want to want to learn about leading through adversity and learn about coaching, mentoring and all that stuff. Follow us there if you want to know more about the book has Sue's company comm if you want to know more about me and what I've done and throughout my 27 years In this analysis, who's
any company comm? If you get the books right now they're on the website, preorder comes out July 4, you save $5. And you get an autographed copy. If not, you get it through Amazon Barnes and Nobles books or us bookstore, calm and all that good stuff in any any way you want it electronic, hardcover, or softcover. Awesome, awesome. Hey, we got a couple of quick things. We didn't. Let's lighten things up. We've had this one. First of all, thank you for sharing your
thoughts on leadership. Thank you for your service in law enforcement. Thank you for 21st Century Policing mentality. And I'm going to say this, because this is what I think leaders don't get a chance to say to other leaders as much. Thank you for fighting the fight. When you went, when you were mission first to do the public service work, and you came up under attack on both sides, it takes a special kind of character to to continue the mission and you're coming up coming up under attack
from both sides. I know what it's like, thank you for being that kind of a leader. Thank you for your rubber band analogy, which is the resilience of doing the purpose of the mission. And so I just want to salute you for that, because I don't think there's to your point, there's all this popularity stuff and people don't want to call people out for the But listen, it's hard work. Being a leader and for being so consistent for decades, right? Going on three
decades of leadership. I just want to say thank you for that. You're a foodie, man. I'm a foodie. You're a foodie. Let's, let's finish up on the foodie side, man. How did you get your interest in the food scene? Uh, you know, I just love to eat man. Yeah, I just I just love to eat you know, I mean, you know, I i've always I've always struggled with my weight. There's been days where I I'm in great in great shape look fantastic. But then I love to eat. And I love to eat all the
bad stuff. That's for you. I mean, you know, I love hamburgers. I love pizza. I love lasagna. I love steaks. I'm gonna have anything, man. And that's the thing. I love seafood. The thing is, is I saw that I see a big that I see a big piece of sea bass on one of the photos. Yeah, you did. Yeah, that was from our California trip. They are absolutely saving us I can tell the food is just just phenomenal. You know, during one of our cultural awareness meals, that was part of my no colors, no
labels program. We brought in traditional African American food, which is like the neck bone and the lizard delivered and the good news and all that stuff. downsells Oh, my God, some of the bests. So food is just amazing. If people have ever tried it, I concur. It's right next there, the Mexican food madness is awesome. But I think food is one of those things that just completely I've yet to find anyone have beef with another person over a great meal. I just haven't seen it.
So So again, going back to that awareness meal. You know, we had this very rich individual in in East Texas, very wealthy, older gentleman set in his ways, you know, didn't really like diversity. And then the president of the NAACP, African American female, that we're always at odds. By the end of our series, they were sitting together laughing, holding hands hugging, somebody comes up to me and says, Chief, hell just froze over. Yes. And I was like, Hey, man, you can't argue with food,
bro. That's right, man. When the food is good food brings people together, man. It does. It absolutely does. With all the work that you've done the experience things that you've got planned. I know. But let's just say happened to be that you're not here on this planet tomorrow, but you want everyone to know you for you know, it's funny. I've often thought about that. And as I was coming up, I always thought that me leaving a legacy was
important. And that legacy is I want it to be remembered as the best chief is the best Sheriff is the best director is as the best. This is the best that. And it's funny that once you take off the spotlight of chasing the shiny things, the only thing and the only thing that matters to me and the most important title for me as I want people to remember that. I did it all for my kids. And my wife and my family. I want to be remembered as a good dad. A good husband.
The husband part I might struggle with but the kid the dad that's what I want to be remembered. So that's the most important title for me. Is that his dad? That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Edie Kappa thank you so much for sharing some time with us today with our audience on the MindScape podcast. Again, thank you for your work. Thank you for your years of experience in leadership, law enforcement, all the best and continued success to you my friend. Awesome. My pleasure. Thank you.
Hey, what's up my friend, thank you for honoring me with your time on today's episode of the mind shift podcast. Listen, let's continue the conversation. connect with me on social at Mr. Darrell Evans on almost every platform with the exception of my Facebook page, which is at elevens fan. Until next time, remember you're just one shift away from that breakthrough you're looking for. Talk to you soon.