I like to say when I talk to people about brand and culture, especially in businesses, brands say, cultures do. So a brand can say, we always answer the phone on the first ring. Well, the culture of the business is the one who determines the truth or falsity of that previous statement. If the culture is, we answer the phone on the first ring, and people answer the phone on the first ring and if it rings twice, they get on and say, Hey, I'm so sorry. This is Jake from
State Farm. We always answer on the first ring. I'm sorry, this rang twice. If you were on the end of that phone, and you heard that apology for not catching it on the first ring, that would be a brand reinforcing the fact that we answer on the first ring. Due to a problem, I wasn't able to get it on the first ring, I feel bad about that. All of a sudden, you as a customer are like Oh, that's fine, man. I am so excited to meet someone who actually apologizes for being human.
This is The MindShift Podcast where we share real stories, real strategies that will help you find real success. This is the place to hear from people just like you who've taken their ideas, goals and dreams from a point of inspiration to realization or when life knocked them down from a point of breakdown to breakthrough. I'm your host Darrell Evans. Let's get started with today's episode.
In a crowded marketplace, it can be hard for your brand to be seen. But what if there was a way you could discover, craft and communicate the completely true, completely you, brand that you already are? My guest today is DP Knudten, a writer by trade who enjoys playing in the intersection between the visual and the verbal using his nonfiction branding approach to move people and product for companies throughout the United States. He says know who you are, so you
can be it. That's the two sentence call to action that succinctly sums up what we are going to talk about today. After you listen, be sure to hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening to this so that you never miss an episode of The MindShift Podcast. Let's meet DP. DP, welcome to The MindShift Podcast. How you doing my friend?
I'm doing great, Darrell. Thanks for having me on.
Hey, first off, let me thank you for sending me a copy of your book. I am excited. I enjoyed our meeting several months ago. And I was like, man, I need to have you on the show. Hey, I hope you don't mind but I'm going to use this session as a coaching session for me and our listening audience. Audience, you can thank me later. DP's going to be in the hot seat for coaching us on all things personal branding today, and I'm excited but where are you calling in from D?
I am calling in from Madison, Wisconsin area. Sun Prairie if you want to be technical, and that's the capital of the state of Wisconsin here in the United States of America. And today, it's a lovely 57 degrees and rainy.
Okay, so I'm over here in the Las Vegas area, as most of our listeners would know. And I think we're going to touch 106 today, so we're gonna be a little toasty.
This is why I love where I live.
Yeah, DP, I am really excited to dive into this conversation. But let's do this. Let's have you introduce yourself to the audience. What's your background? How did we get here? Long journey in a short period of time, but enlighten our listeners, if you don't mind?
Well, okay, I'll try to make this as short as possible, but give a little bit of flavor. Because I started out as a drama and choir kid in high school. I went to get a bachelor's degree in theater, which I did. I went to the University of Southern California to get an MFA in acting of all things, which I didn't, instead, I got a DNF, did not finish. But it taught me something about myself that's really, really important, which was, I thought I was going to be a TV movie star or at least an
actor who wanted to do that. And I realized that was true. Parts of it, I wanted to do, which was the performance part, which was the process part, which is the go deep into scripts part, but I didn't like the ego parts of it. And so it was just a bad fit. So I drop out of that and did not finish that Master of Fine Arts
degree in acting. instead. I did everything from on-camera work, voiceover, trade shows as the guy on stage going, the thing about the Evinrude 265 is that this that and the other thing, you know, I was that kind of actor on hire type situation until I decided one day that I wanted to have a family. And the thing I learned about women is they kind of want something a little more stable than a guy who maybe can pay the rent this week or this month or maybe not.
Right.
So I decided to find a career. Long story short, I stumbled into copywriting in advertising agencies, and that was close to 30 years ago. I've been an advertising copywriter and creative director for close to three decades working on everything from Coca Cola to plywood, and everything in between. And that's where I learned the value of marketing, and even more so, the value of branding.
Wow. You know, 30 years in an industry (a) congratulations, (b), I think for the listening audience, what is copywriting?
Well, just put it this way, if you see words on an outdoor board, somebody wrote those words. But not only that, what's the concept behind the outdoor board that are then conveyed through the words that were written? And this is what a lot of people don't understand. Copywriting is not just about word arranging. It's about coming up with the idea. Like, let's take, Nikes just do it. The thing that a lot of people don't know is that "just do it", which is now kind of they don't
even use it as a tagline. They don't have to, we all fill it in, because we know it so well. Because Nike brand, just do it. That started out as a headline. But the power of those three words became the core DNA of what Nike is. And so I think it was Dan Kennedy, or I'm not sure which one Wieden or Kennedy, whichever the copywriter was
that wrote it. He was writing, conceptually, an idea, which was if you're aware of Nike sportswear, shoes, et cetera, you aren't a armchair athlete, you're someone who gets off of their butts and just does whatever the thing is. And that made it so much different than a fashion oriented footwear company. This one was for the people who get out and do, not the ones who sit there and pose.
Yeah.
And that is the power of three flippin words. So I look at those three words and say, That's what a copywriter does. It's not just, I'm telling you things in written words. I'm planting ideas in your head that will last your entire life, so much so that you equate that specific brand with who you are as a person. I mean, I know runners who only wear Nike shoes. Why? They associate with Nike. I will only drink, if I'm drinking a soft drink, which I
don't do much anymore. But when I do, it's 100% Pure bore Coca Cola. Why? Because I am a Coca Cola guy.
Right.
And a lot of people who say branding, I don't believe in branding, I'll just say things like, oh, yeah, what car do you drive? What football team do you watch? What is your favorite band? If you answer those questions definitively, you've bought into that brand of whatever that band, that car, that whatever is, that sports team is.
Yeah, we're gonna go a lot of angles around that. And I appreciate you stating that right out front for the record, right? Because as, you and I've talked offline, and you know, I've not considered myself a personal branding guy, I find I'm more of the strategy. You know, I kind of want to be the person who is known for the plan and executing it and making sure that all the pieces and the results show up. I don't
necessarily care. I've always thought of personal branding, as you know, sort of a little bit egotistical and a little bit showboat'ish and trying to be a little bit more stylistic, if you will, and I've changed my view. And so I'm love, loving it to dig into this today. Again, our listening audience that may be still on the outside of this because you've got a unique approach and perspective to this, which we're gonna dig into, which is the nonfiction
brand. And I want to go into your writing history a little bit and kind of unpack that as we move forward. But also, let's do one other thing. Where does copywriting fit in the world of a personal brand?
Well, one, a personal brand does not have to be an influencer like an Instagram influencer. Are they a personal brand? Of course they are. But personal brands is a huge Venn diagram circle. And within that Venn diagram circle is a much smaller circle called influencer. I'm not talking about 24 year old women who look great in bikinis on the beach in Belize, with the wind blowing through their hair as the sun sets. I'm not talking about
that. I'm talking about the guy or the woman in their industry, who is renowned for being an expert in whatever they are expert in. And I always use as an example, metal anodization. You know, anodising metals. What is that? And I don't know the technology so forgive me here, but it's putting coatings on metal so the metal doesn't corrode or the metal is stronger. There is somebody out there, I don't know who they are, who is universally recognized as the expert on anodising Aluminum.
Right.
Do I know who they are? Heck no, I don't work with aluminum. Are they a household name? No, of course not. And yet, if you went to the right trade show, there would be a circle of people around this person asking questions and getting information from them because they are recognized and respected for the expertise that they have worked so hard to earn. So you describe the fact that you weren't into personal branding. And yet, the way you described yourself was as a
personal brand. I want to be recognized as the guy with the strategy, I want to be recognized as the person who comes up with the solution that returns on investment, I want people to know that I have heft and meat and I deliver the goods. I'm just interpreting what you just said, right?
I'm on the spot. So go ahead, just chop me up. I'm with it.
Everything I just said is what a copywriter does.
Yeah.
What I took was the words you were saying, putting it through my copywriter filter and say, you said I want to be known as the strategist who comes up with and I'm like, change that to I want to be known by people as Darrell delivers the goods.
Gonna take notes.
Darrell comes up with a strategy that is not a shiny object of the day, but is a scalable, sellable, expandable technique I can use throughout my career. Darrell is solid. All of these ideas come through branding. And . . .
Hey DP, I'm loving this. Keep going. Keep going. You're making me feel really good.
All right. Well then, here's the thing. Here's the thing. brands don't say things about themselves. They show things about themselves.
Yeah.
So Darrell, the fact that you have a podcast that deals with issues such as this, bringing on people like me, you are demonstrating exactly everything you just said about being strategic, about being thoughtful, about delivering the goods. You are demonstrating. If you said hi, I'm Darrell, and I deliver the goods. That's not what you can say.
Right.
Other people can say that about you. And here's the difference. A lot of people confuse brand with reputation.
Oh.
Brand is something I own about myself, and I project my brand, and I protect my brand in everything I do. Reputation is held in the minds and the hearts and the hands of other people about me. Now, we all have had this situation where maybe you had a falling out with a friend or they're now a former friend, and they aren't afraid to be a poison pill when it comes to who you are and what
you do. Now, the people who know you very, very deeply, will listen to this other person and go, Oh, that's just sour grapes, or, yeah, I know, Darrell, he's not like that. That person is trying to destroy your reputation by talking to other people. But by you demonstrating your brand, the other people go, Yeah, I know, you're trying to say that he's a waste of time and he costs too much but actually, I find him incredibly affordable because the return is
there. Because the fact is, if you cost $100 an hour, and you're up against someone who charges $25 an hour, and you're making that calculus between two things like two plumbers. Let's say one's 25 an hour and others 100. Well, stupid people hire based on the cheaper cost. Smart people go, I want to hire the person who actually solves the problem.
Correct.
I have no problem paying a plumber, who fixes it once for $100, rather than having this guy who can't fix it out six, seven times to my house, because they didn't do it right the first time.
Yes, yes.
So Darrell, do you see how, we're rolling in pricing into this discussion on brand.
I love it. Let me ask you this. I mean, man, so many questions here that I have for you that I just, I think the audience will appreciate some of these questions, because listen, I'm the type of person who's been in business for a while, but I don't pretend to know what I don't know. And maybe I am doing these things. And to your point, I appreciate that what you're saying. And I think that, I love the distinction about
reputation versus brand. I've always thought a brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. And what is your response to that thought process?
They do, when you tell them what to say. Literally!
I love that.
I like to say when I talk to people about branding culture, especially in businesses, brands say, cultures do. So a brand can say, we always answer the phone on the first ring. Well, the culture of the business is the one who determines the truth or falsity of that previous statement. If the culture is, we answer the phone on the first ring, and people answer the phone on the first ring and if it rings twice, they get on and say hey, I'm so sorry. This is Jake from
State Farm. We always answer on the first ring. I'm sorry, this rang twice. If you were on the end of that phone, and you heard that apology for not catching it on the first ring, that would be a brand reinforcing the fact that we answer on the first ring. Due to a problem, I wasn't able to get it on the first ring. I feel bad about that. All of a sudden, you as a customer are like, Oh, that's fine, man. I am so excited to meet someone who actually apologizes for being human.
Right.
Wow!
That's interesting.
And then that becomes something they tell other people.
I love that! The distinction between brand promise and cultures. And if I didn't say right, please correct me. You're saying the brand is what you tell them to say about you. Is that how I just heard you say it?
Yes. In the formulation I gave you, brands say, cultures do. Culture do, right. With your brand, Darrell, you have told me that you are strategic, that you're process oriented, that you are results oriented as well. You now with you and your culture, like if you have other people working with you, every member of that team needs to deliver on that brand promise.
Right.
Because a brand promise is not a promise when it's fulfilled. It's a brand truth. And there's the difference. A lot of brands make promises, take any diet brand, you know, like, from Weight Watchers to anybody else, they'll promise you the moon on losing weight and stuff like that. But if their culture cannot deliver that . . .
Yeah.
. . . you'll try 'em once. Never use them again. And then tell every friend who might be interested in their product or service to run away.
Right
I once was, I was a young copywriter in Atlanta, Georgia. And we had an old general manager of the agency named Clisby Clark and he was from the south. And you know, he . . .
DP is that the company you worked for that you don't name but you said go find 'em on LinkedIn?
Oh, did I say that? Yeah, yeah. In response. Yes.
For everybody in the backstory.
Yeah.
You gotta get the book Nonfiction Brand. It's available everywhere. And there's a funny story. And DP and I had a conversation about this, I know you're listening to this, so I'm going to tell you the story so you can go get the book. So you can read the part that I'm about to tell you. But I'm not going to tell you the whole thing. DP names this first big agency that he worked for that happened to be based in Atlanta. And I love the way he
told the story. He said I'm not gonna tell you the name, but go to LinkedIn, you'll figure it out. I just thought was hilarious. Yeah.
Well, but it's true. I mean, let's face it, I am a Wow! That's, that's all part of the strategy of product of my, my upbringing. And this agency played a big part of it. And one of them is tied to this story that I wanted coke. And it's been there since 1886. to tell you about. Clisby Clark, this old Southern gentleman with an accent so thick, you could cut it with a knife, once told me, here's the quote, verbatim, You know DP, nothing kills a bad product faster than good
advertising. And I'm like, what does that mean Yoda? I mean, that didn't make sense to a young copywriter. But I thought about it, and I thought about it, and I thought about it and went, Oh, good advertising drives trial of product. People try the product. They discover it doesn't work. They hate the product. They now are active anti evangelists for that product, with people saying Don't waste your time on it.
Nothing kills a bad product faster than good advertising, advertising drives trial, drives awareness. And so when people are disappointed with what they experience, boom, the product's dead. But good advertising is great for great brands. I mean, take a look at one of my
favorite brands. Coca Cola, internationally renowned if you show, put it this way, there was a film in the 70s called The Gods Must Be Crazy, where someone flying a Cessna over the plains of the Serengeti in Africa throws a glass Coca Cola bottle, you know the green glass bottle with the contour shape, throws it out the window. It lands in the dirt, and a Kalahari Bushmen picks it up and thinks The Gods Must Be Crazy for giving away this incredibly valuable thing. A Coke bottle.
The Coke bottle itself was a character within this film. And it was internationally recognized by anybody this side of Kalahari Bushman because we all know what Coca Cola is. We all know what it represents, even if we choose not to do it. Like I said, I don't drink soft drinks that much anymore. But if I do, it's a coke because of my experience with the brand. Not only when I was writing about the brand, but when I was a kid in Salina, Kansas, visiting my
grandma in August. If you've ever been in Salina, Kansas in August, you know that it's three feet away from the gates of hell in terms of heat. Believe me if you want refreshment, you go running into grandma's house, reach in that fridge, find that cold green glass bottle and grab it and put it against your neck. It's not even about the fluid in the bottle. It's about the immediate refreshment you get from the bottle.
Fantastic stories, right? Nike iconic, Coca Cola iconic, whether you drink Coke or not, whether you wear Nike or not. Let's see if we can translate this into this concept of the nonfiction brand and digging deep into personal branding. In reading your book and talking with you. I've certainly got a little bit more insight to how you think about
this from our conversation. But for the listening audience, there was a, call it an influencer, a big name individual who influenced one of your earliest thoughts that you wrote about in the book. I want to say that the person said this back in the 90s. Kind of putting you on the spot. I'm not going to call up the quote but do you know the quote that I'm referring to in the book?
Is it the Roberto Goizueta quote?
Actually, it was Tom Peters.
Oh.
Tom Peters.
Oh yeah.
Tom Peters. That one, that guy!
All right. Let me rephrase your question and say where did the idea for nonfiction brand come from? And I will point all the way back to 1997.
Oh, it was back in 97, okay.
Right, an article in Fast Company Magazine written by the brilliant Tom Peters. He is the father of the concept of personal branding, at least to my knowledge. I know this because I was sitting in an agency and I got a copy of Fast Company Magazine. On the cover was a, what looked to be a, remember the old tide laundry detergent boxes that had the kind of orangey swirl and the purple type that said, Tide?
Yeah.
Well, using those brand colors and graphic ideas, they did a cover that said The Brand Called You. You got to stand out if you want to step out or something like that. I read the article. You can still read it today, just go to fastcompany.com and search for The Brand Called You and you can read the article, I encourage you to do it. It's about a five minute read. But the power of that idea, it was like a baseball bat to the forehead for me. Because I'm from Wisconsin, from the Upper Midwest of
America. We've been taught our entire lives, you're not all that young man. You put your pants on one leg at a time. You're no better than anybody else. Wisconsin and the Upper Midwest are not Texas, where you get a D in trigonometry, you stand on your Bronco and yell yippee, I passed. No, in Wisconsin, you could be a PhD, awarded the Nobel Prize and it'd be like, well, you're, you're no better than anybody else. You know, it's kind of a hide your
light under a bushel state. And I was that way, which was my work speaks for itself. I am here to tell you and your listeners today, your work does not speak for itself. Why? We live in a world where people are really anxious to take credit for your work. And if you're not taking credit for it, don't worry, they will. So instead you need to get over that hide your light under a bushel attitude. And you need to embrace personal branding, not in a braggadocious
way. Not in a look at me, I'm an influencer way, but in a I've worked for 20 years in this industry. Here are the things I've learned. Did you see what I did there? I didn't make a promise. I said I've worked in this agency 20 years. Here are the things I've learned and I am sharing them with you. I'm not shoving them down your throat. I'm not telling you that's the only way. I am sharing that which I am and that which I know. That is the essence of nonfiction branding.
Discovering, crafting and communicating the completely true, completely you, brand that you already are. I'm not talking about making up anything. I'm merely talking about knowing who you are. And being it.
Oh, DP. I love the way you brought that together. And also the context from what you had been taught growing up because everyone listening to this was taught something growing up, whether you lived in the northwest, northern Midwest, and you contrasted Texas versus West Coast, East Coast or anywhere else on this beautiful planet. We all have been taught something about this concept or something about bragging, showing off. I know when I grew
up, it was showing off. You know, even we talk about, I'm a huge sports fan. And I remember there was a big time in the NFL a couple of decades ago, when showboating and celebrating in the endzone was like the best part of the football game. And then there was a season and for those who don't watch the NFL just go Google this. But there was a season when it was frowned upon to celebrate in the endzone and even penalized and even to a certain degree today. I don't know if they penalize it
anymore. But it was like the phrase was act like you've been here before. Act like you've been there before. Stop celebrating. What's all that celebrating about?
Well, what you're talking about are the kind of the neon Deion Sanders days and . . .
Yeah, even Johnny White Shoes Johnson, I think it was back in Houston Oilers. I mean, I can go back some days. The reason I brought that kind of up was we all have some background and some backstory and things that we were taught. And we're on The MindShift Podcast, which is what we're here to do, which is to sort of shift our mind, so we can shift our results. And so even for me, I was taught some things growing
up. You know, I remember back in the 90s, when I first got in business, even though pictures on business cards, were starting to become a thing. I would never put my picture on a business card, because it just didn't mesh with me, like, why does my picture need to be on it? And obviously, we're in the world of digital where everything is face forward now.
It's actually this guy. Well, I can point to that. A guy named Luke Sullivan.
I know, I remember your business card. For those that are, hold it up there a little longer, hold it up there for longer. For those that are listening on the audio, you have to check out the video version over on YouTube. He's got a picture of his business card up there, his picture is face forward. It's actually the whole card actually. He's a good
looking dude, though. But anyway, I guess I said all that to say, I love the distinction of not just making things up for the sake of calling it a brand. I love what you said. And I say this all the time, which is why it hit me so hard, is here's what I've learned. I'm just going to share with you what I've learned. If it lands for you, great. If it doesn't land
for you, that's fine too. But in the communicating of that I don't know if he's retired now, but he was teaching at the message of here's my experience, here's what I've done, here's Savannah College of Art and Design. He had been a big some of the things we've done, here's what I've learned, and if it lands for you, I'd love to help you with it. I just thought copywriter at Fallon McElligott, which is a very well respected that was really a nice segue to
that. I have a couple of quick questions that are a little bit more for me geeking out about agency in Minneapolis, but he wrote a book called Hey Whipple, this, but who is your biggest influencer as a copywriter as it leads to the work? Squeeze This. And for those of us old enough, will remember the commercial with Mr. Whipple for Charmin bathroom tissue. The Charmin. Yeah.
Yeah, where the please don't squeeze the Charmin. And Mr. Whipple was the guy who was constantly saying, Please don't squeeze the Charmin. That's an example of an advertising concept. The concept is Charmin bathroom tissue is so soft, you'll want to squeeze it. So it's that idea. So the copywriter and the art director said, how do we convey that idea in an ad? Oh, we create a character named Mr. Whipple. He'll be the kind of browbeaten guy who says please don't
squeeze the Charmin. And here I am, 45 years later, quoting the entire commercial to you, because it's part of my mental DNA. Luke Sullivan wrote that book. Please Don't Squeeze The Charmin, about copywriting.
Yeah.
And it was very influential to me. It's not the only influence I had, which goes back a little earlier. But it was a great book for anyone who really wants to understand what a copywriter does. It's still, I think in print, because he does, you know, revisions, like when digital advertising became a big thing, he folded that into the book. I think he even has a co author in some sections because of their expertise when it comes to that. But that's a great book. Hey Whipple, Squeeze This
by Luke Sullivan. The other person, and this is where the, don't hide your light under a bushel thing comes in. Long story short, I'm in Denver, I moved there because I like to rock climb and, you know, go skiing and snowboarding and stuff like that. After years of living in the Midwest, I decided to try the Rocky Mountains and see how that goes. I'm in a dead end job as a temp worker for the local Baby Bell Telephone
Service. And I remember an ad I had seen in Chicago, in the Chicago Reader, which is like an alternative weekly. Ben J. Walter Thompson, one of the advertising agencies put it in in this ad that said, Write if you want work, and it had eight writing assignments, where in a little bit of copy that said, there are a lot of creative people in uncreative jobs. Have you thought about becoming an advertising copywriter? I said, No, but it's a job. I'm kind of
fast and clever on my feet. And I've been exposed to things like Darren Stevens in the TV show Bewitched. Remember him? He was an ad guy. So as a kid, I'm like, there's someone gets paid to come up with these ideas? And the answer was, yeah! And they're called advertising copywriters, or art directors if you're more on the visual side of the fence. Well, I did those eight writing assignments. I sent them out to eight agencies in Denver thinking nothing, like
I would hear nothing. And I actually got a phone call from the Creative Director at the largest agency in Denver at the time, who said, I don't have a job for you, but I think you're talented. Why don't you come talk to me? I met with him all of two times. But in those two times, he became the formative mentor for my career. You know, I obviously demonstrated I understood what a copywriter did when it came to writing, and concepting. But he was the one who clued me into, hey, you got
to put these into a book. And I'm like, What's a book? Well, a book in parlance of in a creative department is a demonstration of your ideas and your copy. So I wrote radio scripts, I did TV ads, I did outdoor boards, and I wrote them, I had no friends who did art, it was strictly a written description. And then the actual copy itself. This guy, Jim Glenn, I would not have a career, had he not answered my shot in the dark query. And that's what I want to point out
to your listeners. I got rid of the basket over my myself and said, You know what, I'm gonna take a shot. This is way out of my comfort zone. But I got to try. And I took the shot. I asked, and he answered, Yes. And that's the key thing for your listeners to take away today. You don't get if you don't ask. They can say no. But what if they say yes. And that's the key. You don't get if you don't ask. Get out there and start asking, but make sure you know
what you're asking. You know, when it comes to building a personal brand, you're telling people this is what I am, this is who I am. A big part of it is asking other people who know you. This is what I think the core of who I am is, what do you think? Or even better yet an open ended question of, of all the things I do, what do you value the most? Your friends, your relations, the people who hire you, the people who don't choose you, will answer you in a way that gives you valuable
information. The thing I learned about myself was when I asked that question of other people, they said, Yeah, yeah, you're a good writer. You're a funny guy, you're really entertaining. But what I really like about you is your ability to make me think. And I'm like, Well, what does that mean? I started thinking about that. And all of a sudden, the word provocative came to mind because I have a concept that I write about in the book
called The Key 3. What are the 3 concepts, principles or phrases that truly sum up the truth of who you are, what you do and how you do it. I had already figured out I'm creative, I've got to be on the creative side of the fence. I, unlike you, I'm not operational. I am strategic creatively, but I'm not operational and executional. Sorry, that's not my wheelhouse, right?
Right.
The other thing I do is I collaborate, I'm collaborative. I have to work with other people. I have to understand what they need to say. I, you know, this is not me being a poet up in a castle garrett somewhere writing poetry for no one to hear. I'm writing copy that's supposed to put butts in seats and dollars in tills, you know?
Right.
I have to work with other people to tell their stories. But that third one, the hard one was given to me, not by me thinking about it, but by me asking other people. Of all the things I do that you like, what do you find most valuable? And more than one person said, you make me think. I turned that into the word provocative, because I wanted all collaborative, creative, provocative, boom. By the way, I can say those words, because I figured out what those words
are. And now I can prove those in action every single day.
I love the exercise, tell our listening audience how they should perform that exercise? Should they post that on their LinkedIn profile for the followers there? Should they send it out to their email? Should they make one-on-one phone calls?
Well, any of those things are great. But I would start with, one of the things I wanted to offer your listeners was some downloadable PDFs. If you go to nonfictionbrand.com/gift, g-i-f-t, you can download three absolutely free, you don't even have to sign up for my email list, which frankly, I never send anything to. Just download those things. One of them is a worksheet that's all about figuring out what your key three
aspects are, your concepts. And it'll ask you some very simple but hopefully provocative questions, one of which is, what thing that is perfectly legal within your sphere of influence or human endeavor, will you absolutely not do? Why ask that question? Because what you don't do, won't do, defines you as much as the things you do do.
Wow.
So what does that even mean? I work in advertising. I won't work on tobacco. Why? You figure it out. But that's definitive about me.
Yeah.
That's important to know. Doing that kind of negative research about yourself, the things you won't do, is very valuable.
I call them non negotiable values.
Exactly. Non negotiable values.
I talk a lot about it. Like there are certain things that you have in your DNA and in your character that it doesn't matter what the money opportunity is.
Oh, let me give you an example of that, I just heard today. Now, if you're paying attention, and you like golf or sports, you'll know that the Saudis are starting up a rival PGA Professional Golfers Association. And they're trying to get all the top shelf golfers to play exclusively in their separate thing. So Dustin Johnson, I think is his name. They're paying him $75 million. He's just announced he's going to play at the Saudi Arabian Golf League that takes place in
Europe and all that stuff. The word on the street is that Tiger Woods was offered, not 75 million, but over a billion dollars to come play in that league. Tiger said no. Phil Mickelson said in a comment that he has since rescinded or you know, apologized for, that the Saudis are really tough, they've killed Jamal Khashoggi blah, blah, blah, blah. But essentially, but I'll take their money. Who's got the better brand? In that situation? Tiger Woods is saying, there's a line
I won't cross. And that's the line. I respect that.
Yeah. And I think Dustin made a decision too, and, and, you know, we could argue that he's got a brand and he's sticking by his brand, and . . .
That's right. But the whole point is, you have to make the decision.
Yeah. Make a decision.
Brands make decisions. And by the way, the most powerful thing that branding allows you to do, whether you're a company, a service provider, or an individual, it gives you the ability to say no. The most powerful word in advertising and branding is No, I won't do that.
100%. And it's not even just in advertising and branding, it's actually in sales. You know this as a copywriter as much as I do. I don't earn an income as a copywriter. But obviously, I've been a copywriter for a long time in the world of marketing, advertising and entrepreneurship. In marketing, we want to use things, words and phrases to attract as well as to propel . . .
Yes.
. . . or push away. And that's part of the process, and that is saying no. Who should we say yes to, who should we say no to. Time flies, when you really having a meaty conversation. I do have a couple other questions here before we wrap up. By the way, thank you for the gifts, say it again, nonfictionbrand.com forward slash gift.
Correct.
And there's no opt in necessary for those of you on the other side of that, that means he's not asking you for your email. And he's not going to hound you with 18 emails that try to get you to hire him.
Right! Well, actually, a pop up will come up saying, want to join my email list? You just ignore it.
It's optional.
Yeah, it's absolutely optional, and frankly, I don't send anything, so you're not going to get anything from me except those PDF gifts.
What DP is saying in his brand there is, I want to share some value. And if and only if, this other invitation makes sense, take it but you don't have to give me the email in order to get the value.
Right.
Get it, got it. For those of you listening. Look, I understand the purpose of an opt-in page. I'm a big proponent of them. However, today, we're smarter humans than to think that the only way we're going to trade value is by putting it behind an email opt in list. And so if you've come into my world, I'm going to tell you to do far more content giveaway with no opt in. And if and only if they venture to a certain place in your world, should they then be asked to put
an email in. So DP, I don't want to dovetail because that's a totally different conversation about conversion, which a lot of my people hear me talk about, but I want to ask you a quick wrap up. I want to put you on sort of a hot seat. Three big mistakes that people are making, as it relates to personal branding. Maybe we've touched on a couple of them, maybe we haven't, but three big mistakes, you would want them to say, listen, if you're doing this,
let's stop. I know you've mentioned a couple but just a quick hot seat summary, three big mistakes that they need to stop doing with their personal brand that's just holding them back, keeping them from really getting the due value for their expertise. What say you to those three big mistakes?
Number one, letting other people's examples stop you from starting today. All my answers actually have to do with others. Letting someone else's example stop you because they're doing it so much better. Copying someone else, you know, you see it on Tik Tok all the time where people are ripping off other people's content, hoping to be that other person. It's like no, be your own person, be true to
who you actually are. And the other thing would be relying on your own thoughts about yourself when developing your personal
brand. It's more important that you have deep conversations with the people you know, you love and you serve so that you can get past the, well I think I'm a pretty good writer and they go yeah, you're fine, writing's that's fine, but the thing I like about you is the thing you deliver every day, the things you stand for, oftentimes and I like to put it this way, the YOU you think you are is but a portion of the YOU you actually are in the eyes of the people
you know, love and serve. Bring them into the conversation.
Wow.
Because they are the ones who will be the perfect BS detector about you. They'll say, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're fine at that. But you know, the thing you're really great at is this.
I love it.
That's where you build your brand. The truth of who you are, what you do and how you do it.
Man, DP. Hey, everyone listening, you have been listening to my guy DP Knudten, listen Nonfiction Brand. It's out. It's everywhere. Discover, craft and communicate the completely true, completely you, brand that you already are. He's got a copy of it on the screen. DP where else can people find you? Thank you again for that generous gift over at nonfictionbrand.com forward slash gift, three PDFs, worksheets to help you think through and process. Certainly
pick up the book as well. Tons of tremendous examples of personal brands. DP asks, what is it? 30 or 40 of your friends?
It is I think, a total of 28 people that I'm close to and totally respect.
Yep.
You know, they brought their A game, if you will.
Real life case studies in the book. So listen, get the book, go through DPs thinking and then get it from the people that he's associated with. It just going to help you go. And I know for me, it's just top of mind right now, we didn't get a chance to talk about top of mind awareness on social media. I'll probably have to have you back for a second chat on that because you and I share some comments and thoughts on that that are synergized as well. But DP, where can everyone else find you?
Well, first, the Nonfiction Brand Podcast comes out every single Monday and is available wherever you can find podcasts for free. Nonfiction Brand, my smiling face. It's free wherever you get podcasts, so check that out. You can get the book itself Nonfiction Brand on amazon.com. And if you like it, I would love for you to give it an honest review. Because if there's one thing I am not afraid of, it's people actually letting me know what they actually think. So definitely do
that. Otherwise, I'm at DP Knudten, just about every place on social media because one of the key things is, if you're building your personal brand on social media and you should be, do not be at Pikachu 926 as your handle, make it @DPKnudten, @TheDarrellEvans or if you have a common name, like @JohnSmith, @JohnSmithPhotographer, @JohnSmithWriter, whatever, and make sure your profile photo actually looks like you look, that would be really helpful. Thank you.
That's a great piece of advice. I actually didn't do what you just described early in my days on social. I had different handles for every social media platform. I have a common name Darrell Evans, there's a famous baseball player, there happens to be a famous Christian artist, both of them much more famous than me. And so I had trouble thinking through what I was going to do.
So for me, I added Mr. In front of my name so it's Mr. Darrell Evans pretty much everywhere, but I did finally figure it out about two years ago. And I did that and it has helped tell people how to find me without DL Evans 1911 LV or whatever the heck I was thinking in 2007. So DP last question. I always love these conversations. And I just love the way you've broken all this down. Hopefully everyone's
got something out of it. If today happened to be, for whatever reason, Lord knows we don't want this to happen, your last day on this beautiful place called Earth, what would you want everyone to remember you for?
The fact that my family is the most important thing to me and everything I am pales in comparison to what we are as what I like to call the 5. Because I have three daughters. My wife and myself, we're the 5. I want people to go, he was dedicated to the 5.
I love that. DP Knudten. Thank you for being here on The MindShift Podcast and I'm so happy to stay connected with you and hopefully we continue our, our relationship.
Amen, brother.
Hey my friend, thanks again for listening to today's episode of The MindShift Podcast. Listen, let's not have the conversation in here. Connect with me on social @MrDarrellEvans on almost all the platforms, with the exception of Facebook. My Facebook fan page is @DarrellEvansFan. Until next week, remember you're just one shift away from the breakthrough you're looking for.