For a small business, for a solo entrepreneur listening to this, I think that your money is best spent entirely on PR. Because advertising, buying that Superbowl ad is not going to connect you with the client and create the trust that you need in the faster timeframe in order to increase likelihood that they will create a sale. So the visibility is more powerful when it appears as though you have earned it. And that's what PR is.
This is The MindShift Podcast where we share real stories, real strategies, that will help you find real success. This is the place to hear from people just like you who have taken their ideas, goals and dreams from a point of inspiration to realization or when life knocked them down, from a point of breakdown to breakthrough. I'm your host, Darrell Evans. Let's get started with today's episode.
Hey, my friend. Welcome back to another episode of The MindShift Podcast. I'm your host, Darrell Evans. I'm super excited to have you here. Thank you in advance, for sharing some of your time today to learn about a very incredible topic from a very amazing entrepreneur. Before we get started, let me encourage you to hit the like, follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening to this show, so that
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into today's show. Listen, my guest today has more than a decade in the New York City Public Relations world. Except today, Amanda Berlin now uses her pitch powers for good. With over 12 years of corporate experience and 10 years now, running her own PR consulting business, Amanda helps entrepreneurs who are feeling lost in the noise out there in the marketplace. And they feel like they are the best kept secret. She helps them find authentic ways to be more seen
by the right people. And if you've ever built a business or brand, if you're working on that right now, you know what I mean by, you feel like you're so talented, but yet you're the best kept secret no one knows about. So Amanda works with her clients to help them get featured in all sorts of media from places like Business Insider to Entrepreneur on Fire to WNYF, FOX 5 Affiliate all the
way to bustle.com. And she also hosts her own incredible podcast called The Empowered Publicity Podcast, and she just loves arming soul powered business owners with the ideas and skill sets that they need to go from the hidden industry gem to a recognizable trusted expert. Amanda, how you doing? Welcome to The MindShift Podcast.
I'm well, Darrell, thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
Introduce yourself to our listening audience, if you will.
Yes, absolutely. I am Amanda Berlin. And for 12 years, like Darrell said, and 10 years now in entrepreneurship, I have worked, you know, cumulatively over 20 years in PR and marketing. And it didn't always start out with all of that enthusiasm. It sort of ebbed and flowed. I umm, I was in the corporate world, and I was helping some of the loudest guys in the room be louder than their competition and I felt
like my soul was dying. And I really left the corporate world feeling pretty demoralized and dejected and really like I was done with communications and
marketing. And after some time, kind of dabbling, and figuring out what my entrepreneurial venture was going to be, I realized that this skill set of creating a story that would cast a favorable light on my client, and then helping them to embody that story, to communicate that story, and to use that story to connect with more of the right people was actually something I was really passionate about, provided I was doing it for people whose work I could really
stand behind. And so that's who I help these days in my work in communications and marketing and PR, and I feel like that's really my mindshift was finding a way to do the work that I had been trained to do in a way that could feel sustainable on a moral level to me.
Oh, I love that. I love that. You said sitting in a room helping loud people be louder or something like that.
Yes, the loudest guys in the room be louder than their competition.
First question. I mean, just has to be asked, because I've been in the marketing demand generation business with growth for the last decade and a half as an entrepreneur and I always get this question. What is PR? And is it really marketing?
Yes. So PR is a type of marketing. There are a host of marketing tactics that you speak to, that we all know about. There's direct mail, there's email marketing, there's social media marketing, there is advertising, I would even argue, is its own beast, but it's also a marketing tactic. It's paid. It's a different type of beast, but it would fall under like
your marketing plan. Public relations is a very, I think powerful, means of marketing, because by its very definition, are creating a relationship with your public, and that is why we invest in services and products, is when someone creates a relationship with us, or when a company creates a relationship
with us. And those of us as solo entrepreneurs or small businesses, we have an advantage in that realm of relationship creating, because as people who are at the helm of our business, we are an accessible person, as opposed to a massive corporation that really struggles and has to manufacture a way to make a relationship with their public.
Ooooh whee! Ooh, love what you just said. They have to manufacture the relationship with the public. The other thing I love about it is I've always believed that the best marketing you can ever do drives a return of your investment on the relationships you've established. And the vast majority of entrepreneurs and clients that I work with, I'm sure maybe in your world, when we are smaller companies, let me
define smaller. I'm talking sub 100 employees, I'm talking sub, you know, $100 million, you know, solo practitioner all the way up to anywhere in between, that is what I still call a small to midsize company. And it's interesting, because almost every one of the entrepreneurs in those firms agree that they got started based on the like, know, and trust factor. Yeah?
Absolutely.
But then they can't compare and contrast PR. And I actually struggle with this sometimes. That's why I wanted you on the show. Because how do we get an ROI, or measure ROI from the PR, but we all agree that relationships drive the highest value clients. But can you tie in that for us a little bit? Talk a little bit about that.
Yeah, so this is taking me back to my agency days, because this was a huge concern, and a huge task that always landed on our desks was, to quantify the value of the activities that we were performing on behalf of our
clients. And there are ways to quantify the impact of PR, particularly the impact of media relations, which is a sub category of PR, because you can look at the money that you might have spent on an ad buy and the impressions that that ad would have gotten, and you can look at the viewership for a particular television segment during a particular show on a particular day, and quantify how many eyeballs saw that, but you can't quantify how many people took action on it, or how many people
will take action on it in the future. And so that's really, I think, where your question lies, is in this sort of amorphous answerless question about who is going to actually be moved to take action on the relationship
that we have created. And in my work, when I'm working with solo entrepreneurs and small businesses, it really is the work of building on several different layers of tactics that are going to create a substantial enough and a personal enough relationship with a potential client or group of clients that will inspire them to take action. So we really work on the language around the call to action. What
do we want them to do next? That really is the guiding force of the work that we do and the messaging that we create is, starting with what do we want them to do?
Yeah. How many touchpoints today are, in your mind, an excellent framework for someone listening to this to think about from a PR standpoint? And I know, there's no exact answer. The problem with marketing is there are no exact answers ever. There's playbooks, there's data, but talk to us a little bit about the types of number of touch points we should be thinking about when we think about a healthy PR campaign.
Yeah, that's a really good question. And this would totally be my sort of like gut answer. It's a lot.
I appreciate that, Amanda. Appreciate that one. A lot!
Yeah, so I mean, the number that came to mind for me is seven and I don't know why that number comes to mind. You know, that's why I say It's a gut reaction. But the fact of the matter is that it's only the very first step to get someone you know onto your email list or into your event or reading an article in which you're featured, then you have to nurture them over time. And that's where the relationship is
built. And so you probably have to have many different actions or things that will engage them, or events that they can benefit from, or articles that will teach them, land in front of them before they're going to make that buying decision. The thing that may be the caveat to this is if you are able to engage with them in a way that inspires trust more quickly, and there are PR tactics that inspire trust quickly, more quickly than others, then those touch points are going to be reduced.
Okay, well, since you brought it up, my next question will wait. Because listen, we're talking to people listening to show are good at what they do. I work with people that are best in class, they may not be best known, but they are best in class, it's just a criteria for who we work with.
Like, I cannot work with someone who doesn't produce a great product, have a great reputation, who doesn't believe themselves that they're best in class, but when I read this in your background, and that is that you help people that are the best kept secrets, right, in their industry, no one knows who they are. So let's go to those quick win tactics. I think that'll be very helpful for listeners.
Perfect. Yes, I always say like, the recurring mantra that I hear from people that land in my programs is that I'm really good at what I do, but not enough people know about me. And so the starting point, for virtually anyone that is coming into any of my work is we're going to look at who is your closest circle, who are the people who maybe even know you personally, but have no idea what you do professionally, or can't tell someone else what you
do professionally. And so that's really where we will begin, your natural market. But the fastest track to exploring outside of that natural market and increasing your word of mouth, which is the fastest track to visibility, are your strategic partners. So who are you, I'm gonna say, who are you getting into bed with? Who are you partnering with?
PG 13 show. We're not gonna go there.
Who are you allied with? Who are your strategic partners? That's really the starting point. Because when you are partnered with someone who has created an audience that trusts them, when they put you in front of that audience, that audience is predisposed to trust you because they trust the person who's introducing you. So that trust transfer is what I call it, the trust transfer is accelerated because of this dynamic between you and someone who already created an audience that trusts
them. And so that is the audience that's more likely to buy from you even more quickly.
Amanda, this is a very interesting conversation. A couple of quick pieces that I want to back up on that you talked about. Number one, starting with your inner circle, right? The closest circle, and do they know what you do? Can they actually describe to someone else, and it just hit me. I had a call about three weeks ago, with a guy I've known since college. I haven't seen him offline in a little bit. And his question to me was, so what
are you doing these days? To your point of the closest circle, like, I know there's a Tik Tok and an Instagram thing going around that has Jay-Z's hook to it, that says allow me to reintroduce myself, right? And I actually just bookmarked it the other day. And I'm going to do that because it reminded me after I had this conversation with my guy, and I'm thinking hmmm, that he should know that and I'll tell you why that was
important. Because a venture capitalist once said to me, he was asking us about our company and this and that, it wasn't because we were doing business with him directly. But it was one of those to your point, possible center of influence relationships. And he's asking us all this stuff. And he says, so you're good at what you guys do. Yeah. You've been doing it this long. Yeah. And you've gotten clients results. Yeah. And to the tune of this much
revenue. Yeah. He goes, Well, how come I don't know who you are? And Amanda, my ego was just jacked up. And my defense mechanism went to because you're not my ideal customer, because you're not looking to buy anything from us, because you're not our target audience. And he said, Well, why wouldn't I be? He goes, I fund the very companies you can help.
Right.
Zip shut. He dropped the mic. And I've been wrestling with that comment ever since because with any small business, there's only so many dollars. There's only so many resources. And so you just touched on two key points right? Inside circle, inner circle and then this referred network or what I would call influential network, where they're working with the type of people. I think those are two key points. Talk a little bit more about is there
another tactic besides that? So inner circle, that influential circle, is there another one?
always frame it as, this is a takeaway on which anyone listening can take action, start looking for people who do something different than you before the same people. That's the bucket of people who become your strategic partners.
So if you're talking about someone who is already talking to your audience, but selling them something different, providing a service that's in a different category, great place to reach out for a collaborative relationship.
Absolutely.
How do you approach a collaboration?
Yes, I love that question. You know, that's the essence of it. These tactics are what you need to do. And then the big question is like, how do I use these? And so one of the things that I always work through with clients is what is the approach? What is the language that we would use in order to get in front of these
people. And I think as a rule of thumb, generally speaking, I always like to approach with curiosity, because you may have an idea of how they can support you, they may or may not know that you exist. But first, you need to get on their radar and set up a time to talk. And so what I like to do when I set up those conversations is just
approach with curiosity. I like to say, Hey, I found your work online, I think what you're doing here is really interesting, I think we work with the same people, do you want to set up a time to chat because we might be able to support each other? And that's usually, you know, a disarming way to get on someone's calendar, and you also aren't approaching with an agenda. You're approaching, you maybe have some ideas in your back pocket, you know, and I would
recommend that. That you have some ideas in your back pocket. And you know, that's another thing on, on which I work with clients is, you know, how do you build these collaborations? What do you do? But that initial approach has to just be a like, hey, let's see. You don't even know if you're gonna like this person. And vice versa. So you need to just sort of keep it first things first, really.
I get it, right. So it's like, let's just have a conversation and see, it looks like we're serving the same people. Let's just have this open, you know, general conversation without an agenda.
Yeah.
So this person who is looking at a lot of opportunities, and when I talk to companies, we're usually trying to look at their budget and find out how much money they're investing in marketing, right? And depending on the size of the company, that number could be 10%, 15%. Those seem to be the ranges. When I don't see people investing like that, it tells me they're not all the way into their marketing journey. And it's fine. Maybe they're a little early stepping into it.
But how do you think about allocating PR in the grand scheme of a budget? Let's just say it's 10% for round numbers, 10% of annual revenue is going back into marketing. How would you give it a percentage for PR, because I sit on a chair, where people are always driving the ROI, right? Where are we at at the bottom of the funnel? And clearly the work you do is towards the top, right, getting people aware? I think they're all important. I talk a lot about Superbowl ads this year
costing $6.5 million. And most people I talk to I say, if it only costs $50,000, would you do it? And the ones who get it, they say, absolutely I'd find the 50 If I didn't have it? And I say well, why is that? Well, because 94.6 million people are going to watch the doggone game, whether you like football or not. So everybody believes they need to be more visible, but they can't seem to figure out how much of their budget should go there. That's my question.
Yeah, so the answer is different depending on what kind of business you're running. Whether you're product based or service based, whether you are a solo entrepreneur, a small business or skewing toward the larger end of the business realm that you were talking
about. It all depends. For a small business, for a solo entrepreneur listening to this, I think that your money is best spent entirely on PR, because advertising, buying that Superbowl ad is not going to connect you with the client and create the trust that you need in the faster timeframe in order to increase likelihood that they will create a sale. So the visibility is more powerful when it appears as though you have earned it. And that's what PR
is. PR is earned media, earned speaking opportunity, earned strategic partnership. And so when you devote your time and energy to creating relationships that earn you the opportunity to be seen, that's what's really going to influence the bottom line when you are a smaller business or a solo entrepreneur. And so I come down pretty clearly on the side of no advertising because that's not the thing that creates that personal relationship.
Got it? So I get the distinction, right? So the advertising versus ,that hurts my heart, by the way, that you completely shun advertising.
That's like the lot of a PR person is like, are you a Giants fan or a Patriots fan?
No, I get it. Listen, I think it's all relative, right? So my company, we're responsible for top, middle and bottom of the funnel. It's just that our clients come to us, obviously, usually in pain. So they need to focus at the bottom of the funnel. And there's a place and a way to do that effectively. But we're always telling them that they've got to get to a place where they are more visible. The reality is, and there are lots of ways
to do it. And as you mentioned, marketing has a lot of different facets, let's do this, I don't want to run out of time. Let's break down your framework for our listening audience so they can hear how these steps play out when you're actually working with your clients. Let's walk through that.
Okay, perfect. So yes, I teach marketing and visibility through the lens of a three part framework for being seen. And it's sort of modeled in a concentric circle type of visual. And it starts with that innermost circle, those collaborations and alliances. Who are your strategic partners? Who is doing something different than you, before the same people, where you can align, and get out there in front of a new audience with that trust transfer being as accelerated as
possible. So that's the most intimate type of visibility, that innermost concentric circle of collaborations and alliances. The next circle, and these barriers between the circles are permeable, so they sort of bleed into each other in some ways. The next circle is speaking and events. So where are you being seen on a stage as an expert offering your insight? And how are you hosting or creating an
experience for your audience? So that you are out there and in front of them personally, whether it's virtually or in person, giving them your insight, but also creating an exchange where they get to interact with you. That's what makes that opportunity a bit more potent in converting an audience member to a client, than our outermost circle, which is media. And now when people hear public relations, they automatically go to media, they think PR is media.
That's exactly where my head goes.
Yeah, so media is a small piece of PR. And for a small business, especially a small business that is operating a higher ticket service based model, media is not going to get you new clients. Media validates your business, and it gives you
credibility. But the clients that find you through these other two tactics, your alliances, and the way that you're sort of perceived as an expert on a stage, when they go back to your website, and they see you've been featured in a media that they trust, then they're like, Okay, I was right about that person. Now I feel comfortable investing. And so media validates you. The reason why it's the outermost concentric circle is because it is the most wide form of visibility, and the least deep,
in most cases. There are exceptions and that's where it comes like full circle back to collaborations. Because podcasts are a different type of media. They are almost like a collaboration, because you've built an audience that trusts you, you bring me on provided I create an experience that feels valuable to them, and I earn their trust in that little manner, or consequential manner. They will trust me more quickly, because you have introduced me to them or anyone.
100% Yeah, I love it. In fact, I was gonna ask you, where does podcasting fit in? So my gut tells me, it is more on that inner circle piece. At that first layer. Is that right?
Yeah. So you know, podcasts, by definition are media, but they mimic collaborations because of that trust that you've created with your audience.
Yeah, because I have to have the willingness as a show host. This isn't the most popular podcast on the planet yet, listening audience. But it's amazing how many guest inquiries I get. So I have to be selective. I have to really read through the bios, I have to go research, I have to, we talked a little bit about this before we started. I like to find common
grounds. I like to find topics that I'm curious about that I think my listening audience will be curious about and then be able to really see the value that that person brings to the marketplace in an area that I'm not qualified to discuss. That's how I pick my topics and so, super grateful that you're here. Someone's listening to this and they're like, Okay, Amanda, I've got it. That inner circle has to deal with these collaborations, these mutual beneficial
collaborations. I hear this in my world because we're in the SEO, Google space, content marketing, all that stuff, social. But Amanda, I'm a solopreneur, or a smaller firm, when am I supposed to find time to do all of these appearances and to do all this outreach, and to do all the follow up? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Talk to 'em about that.
Yeah, absolutely. So the way that I see it is this is one of your primary mandates, is to get your business out there. You have a service, you have an offering, the only other thing you should be focusing on is how you're getting that in front of other people. And so we need to reprioritize the way that we think about these visibility tactics and their
essentialism. Because they are absolutely essential as a business owner, for you to (a) create a modicum of ease for yourself around articulating who you are, what you do, and how someone can work with you. That's a huge part of it, is like, is streamlining that message in and of itself, so let's create ease for you in getting that out there. And then we have to hone what is going to be possible for you to engage in? What's going to be possible
for you to execute? What's going to be energizing for you to go after? Because those are the things that you're going to be able to do in the limited time that you may have. So that's where my work comes in and gets so exciting. That's where my work comes in.
Yeah. I love it! I love people that are fired up, I really do.
This work comes in providing that direction on the focused attention. You know, where you should put your focused attention in the ways that's going to have the greatest impact on your business, when you court
visibility. And so, you know, in some cases, I'll tell the client, like don't even worry about that thing, that, you know, that media placement that you are preoccupied by, because the goal that you have is to bring in more clients and these tactics over here are what's going to actually move the needle.
I love it. I know you've got a program and got, you know, so many years of experience in this. And I know you've seen it from both sides, right? You've seen the corporate side of it, you've got now the entrepreneurial side of it. I love that you're saying you now use your pitch powers for good. We'll save that deep dive for another episode. But where can people find you online and connect with you? I know I found you all over the web. So, 'cos you're visible. Talk to us about that.
Yay! Thank you. Yes, absolutely. So you can find me at AmandaBerlin.com. And there is a free training that walks you through these three pillars of visibility and the impact that they might have on your business, and what they're good for and what they're not good for. And you can grab that at AmandaBerlin.com/visibility. Short training, you can even watch it on hyperspeed. Watch it in 15 minutes and get what you need.
Wow, that's awesome. So we'll link that up in the show notes. And anywhere else you want them to find you?
Yeah. Find me on Instagram, @AmandaGailBerlin, G-A-I-L and I will see you there.
And if you're listening to this show, you might as well check out the Empower Publicity Podcast, wherever you're listening to this show. She's a fantastic host and entrepreneur. Amanda, you've really, you know, helped me understand a few other things as well, because I get forced to the bottom of the funnel in my work. I love it. I actually love it. I'm not mad at it, I'd like to do a little bit more visibility work, a little bit more branding work. And I do think that it's super important
to the holistic marketing . . . . . . function in a business. Of course, every
Yes. business doesn't have the same resources to allocate. So what I'm hearing you say is for that smaller entrepreneur, that solopreneur, sole practitioner, expert in their space, author, speaker, coach, service provider, but they're still at that lower team size level, not necessarily revenue, just you know, doesn't have the biggest team on the planet. They're expert at what they do. They should really be focusing from
the inside out, right? And that thing that we think, which is the TV appearance, or the big thing is really the least effective is what I think I heard you say, right? Yes, if the goal is to get more clients.
Yeah, yeah. And I think the goal for everyone listening to this is to get more clients. And it's funny, because that's the thing that everybody thinks it's, Google ads and Facebook. I mean, there are all sorts of ways and the funny thing about this is my gut tells me that Amanda's approach to customer acquisition in this way, is probably more palatable for the budget of a lot of solo practitioners. You know, I get people that come and want to
Yes. play on Google right away, which is fine, but unfortunately, depending on certain industries, it could cost $100 a click. $35 a click. Not a customer, a click, right? And you're gonna have to buy so many of those before you get a conversion, etc, etc. So, Amanda, you're a boss at the game, let me tell you. I appreciate your energy. Listeners, listen, you want to pop out to her website and get
that free resource. And Amanda, hopefully I can have you back in the future for another conversation around this topic. I have really enjoyed it. Likewise, Darrell, thank you so much. And thanks for holding space for this conversation.
And I've got space for one more question. And that is this, if for whatever reason, this happened to be the last day on this planet, what would you want everybody to remember you for?
Oh, man! I want to be remembered as a champion, not as a champion like rah, rah, you know, like Muhammad Ali, as a champion for others. I am the most enthusiastic hype woman. This is what I would want to be remembered for, that any of my clients have ever encountered. And I got a letter in the mail, actually, this week from a client, I'll just tell the story super quickly, who was forced out of a position due to a harassment complaint that she filed. She took a settlement and
signed an NDA. And she wanted to get her story out there. And I said, unfortunately, there are a lot of stories like this out there. What you need to do is create a movement and we worked together, I'm getting chills, we worked together on her conceiving of and mobilizing this movement, and it is taking shape. And she wrote to me that I struggled to put into words the profound impact you continue to have on my life. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for
believing. And that is what I want to be remembered for is for championing people who are intent on making a difference out there in the world and making sure that they get the attention that they deserve.
Man, what a way to end. Thank you so much, Amanda, I look forward to staying connected.
Thanks, Darrell.
Appreciate you being here.
Likewise.
Hey my friend, thanks again for listening to today's episode of The MindShift Podcast. Listen, let's not have the conversation in here. Connect with me on social @MrDarrellEvans on almost all the platforms, with the exception of Facebook. My Facebook fan page is @DarrellEvansFan. Until next week, remember you're just one shift away from the breakthrough you're looking for.