115: How to Improve Team Engagement

important. But the third is a competent leader that can help manage those two things, as well as all the people, but you need to have all three elements.

to breakthrough. If you enjoy today's show, I'd encourage you to hit the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening so that you never miss one of our episodes. I have a great conversation today planned with my good man, Shawn Richards. Shawn's been a business executive for over 30 years. And let me tell you, he's worked in small businesses. He's worked as a COO, as a CFO. And he's really committed and has been committed to business success at all

levels. In more recent years, Shawn has found tremendous passion in helping leaders develop their team building skills, their strategies, and turn really excellent teams that are already performing well into high performing extraordinary teams. His training programs comprise nine different courses that are all designed to help leaders learn how to boost productivity, and boost and

build positive cultures. He is a Gallup Certified Strengths Coach, which I'm going to help you understand a lot about that because I want to learn about it as well. And he's also certified as a TES facilitator for AIR Consulting of Philadelphia. That's another area we're really going to unpack today. And he and I first met, was through his podcast. He is the host of the Team Engagement Podcast. Really looking forward to this conversation. Let me introduce

you to Shawn Richards. Shawn, welcome to the show.

to manage it. They're afraid to build a team or expand the business because there, there's a risk factor. And I just want to start really quick. What is it about building teams from your perspective that makes it so difficult?

so it takes a lot of trust. And for some, quite frankly, it is just a pain to go out and find those people and to find ways to hire effectively. And then to retain that talent, especially the top talent, you know, those people that are really making a positive impact in your company, you want to hold on to them. But especially in today's environment, that's really difficult. And so there's definitely some challenges there. So there's a lot of reasons why people are reluctant

to take that leap. If you're an entrepreneur that is looking to start scaling and expanding and hiring. It's a big leap. It's a challenge.

And so keep a long story short, I eventually decided to start my own business where I would advise people and consult people on doing that. And for a little while it was primarily to help them set up the business and guide them through the process, either direct them to an attorney, or an accountant or somebody but also help them with the steps about kind of going from that idea, that conception,

and getting it launched. I found that through a lot of networking, I was able to connect them with good people. And so that turned into a

passion of mine. But ironically, I refined that passion just a little bit more recently, over the last just last three or four years, really, and got more specific to the leaders of the teams, and really wanting to help them understand their role and how they can be most effective in their leadership role, and how they can help the people on their team and the people in their company really

see success. And of course, the irony behind it, when I say experience success, you have to know how to define it first.

thing to do. What would you say to your 30 year younger self that you wish you knew back then?

failure. And I have over the years learned to discipline myself and I've helped others do the same thing to understand that, do the best you can to prepare, and there are definitely some strategies and some things that we can do to help people be better prepared and have more confidence. But also recognize that not everything is going to go exactly like you want, exactly how you plan it, it's learning how to respond to those situations. And so if I were to go back to 30 years, I would

say, Shawn, try things. Be willing to try and be willing to learn when you stumble, when you have a mistake, when something doesn't go as planned, be willing to learn from it and take a very proactive learning approach from the failure because it's going to happen. You can't avoid it, none of us can.

sooner. Shawn, 30 years, I just want to do a little bit of unpacking longevity, like I'm a big believer in the long term, the long game. So I got a couple of questions related to your 30 year journey and one of them is about, how do you stay plugged in when things are not going your way, when things are kind of tough? How do you deal with pressure when those types of things have happened over the 30

years? And we probably don't have time to unpack all the things that happened in 30 years, but their themes and their emotions and it's a roller coaster. Talk to us about those down moments and how do you handle those pressure moments?

the worst experience ever. And it's really never as bad as we think it's going to be. And so as I've kind of grown, you might say, and evolved over the last 30 years, it's relying on that survivability, if you want to call it, that resilience, to be able to say, Yeah, well, I'm going to get through this. Maybe you don't even know how just yet. And this sounds a little warped at first when I say this, but that's part of the fun, is to be able to say, Hey, what am I going to figure out from this?

There's going to be some new things. And I certainly want to be sensitive in today's culture, because I don't want to touch on something that may be sensitive for people. But this pandemic has been a challenge for a lot of people, and understandably so. It's something that our generation has never experienced before. But in the back of my mind, there's a part of me that's curious to find out what's going to come out of

this? What kinds of things are we going to learn about ourselves, about the people around us, about business? There's all sorts of things that we can learn if we'll open our minds a little bit. And that's difficult in the moment, there's no question. I'm not saying it's easy. But if we're willing to open our minds and see the opportunities that are around us, not just business opportunities, they may be relationship opportunities, they may be, you know, perspective

opportunities. A lot of folks kind of realized through the pandemic that maybe they needed to spend a little more time with their kids. Or maybe they needed to spend a little more time on themselves and do a little bit more self discovery. So there's a lot of different ways why it's so important to look for those opportunities, especially during the downtimes. It takes practice. But I can kind of speak from my own experience now at the tender age of 52. That it is something that I've learned.

And as it becomes a shorter from that moment of kind of discouragement where, you're that fear that that comes in. But getting to that point where you're excited and enthusiastic about what lies ahead. And that time frame is getting shorter and shorter in between as I get older, because the confidence is building that the resilience is there. And yes, I will get through it.

through it. I know, there's probably more than a couple of dozen of these scenarios. But tell us about a time when you thought for sure it was the end. And now you can laugh about the story today?

$200,000 to come in. And I had actually already recorded it. And I was reporting to my supervisors. Oh, yeah, we've got another $200,000. You know, you have those moments when you realize what's happened, you're the first one to realize it. And that pit in my stomach, I still get nerves when I remember that feeling, when I realized, holy cow, I have missed it. It was already here. And now I have to go tell 'em I'm sorry. We're not going to get $200,000. We already got it. And they were

expecting it. And that was a very, very difficult conversation to go in and say to my boss, who was the owner of the company, and say, I'm really sorry, I made a mistake. And I actually did find that money. It did come in. You know, Darrell, it was not the greatest day. It just wasn't because I got an earful. You know, Shawn, how could you make that kind of a mistake, but to his credit, it didn't take long. Within literally just, when to say a few minutes, it was probably an

hour or two. And I was impressed. This is kind of going back to that resilience, where he stopped the chew out, you might say, and just said okay, well, what are we going to do now? It's happened, we can't change it. The money's here. Now we're short in our projections. What are we going to do now? How are we going to cover the shortfall that we now have? And then it turned into an example that I learned from him about how to work through a big

setback. So I was really fortunate because I honestly thought they're gonna fire me.

happen. And that was a lesson for me when a few years later, I became more of a leader in that, in that role, and in other companies, to recognize that sometimes, even the really big mistakes are going to happen. Now, if they're repeated over and over, of course, that's a whole different discussion. But . . .

Because you'd started talking about he went from obviously chewing you out, a little bit hot, a little bit angry, then it sounded is that he made a turn in a leadership perspective and talked about what do we learn? How do we make sure this doesn't happen again? Spend a minute or two on that, because it sounds like maybe you picked up a few things from there that you were

just about to touch on. Talk a bit about that moment, because there's something in that moment where you were on the other side of it. And now you're I don't know, I think there's some perspective that came out of that.

there for those few hours. You know, obviously fear. I didn't necessarily shed tears, but I came pretty close. I was that upset about what had happened. I felt bad for the company, I felt bad for the other employees. I felt bad for Mark. And he was upset and understandably so. But you know, we kind of then separated for a little bit. And I don't remember exactly how that part of the conversation ended. He was just like, Okay, well, we'll have to talk about

it and see what we can do. And so I went back to my office, and then an hour or so later, he came back in and he had calmed down a bit. And he was able to say, Okay, Shawn, look, what are we going to do now? What other sources do we have to make sure we can cover this? Can we delay some things? And it became more of a strategy session. Now, I was still at that moment, feeling bad about what I had done. And so it was hard for me to get into what I call a creative mindset.

discouragement, anger. Those kinds of emotions, they take away from the creative power. And that was one of the big things that I learned from him. And that was probably the biggest setback that we had, but there were certainly others. But I really . . . another principle that I learned from him was the idea of teamwork. It was okay. He could have called someone else. He could have figured it out on his own. But I was impressed that he came back to me and said, Okay, let's work

together to figure this out. And that collaboration that he initiated was impressive to me. A couple of really quick principles that I learned from that was the importance of getting past those negative emotions so that you have a creative mindset to solve the problem. You can sit there and dwell on it for hours, days, and some people do. But the real smart entrepreneur will find a way to put those feelings aside to get back into a creative

mindset. And then the second part is, okay, start talking to people, even the people that caused the problem. They're sometimes the ones that are best suited to solve the problem, even though they caused it and so they understand that one of the worst things you can do as a leader is to dismiss, not just in a firing, but ignore them. Don't do that. Don't ignore somebody that made the mistake cos they'll probably first of all most anxious, to get and solve it. They want to fix the

problem. And number two, they probably have the knowledge to be able to really contribute to the conversation.

get it. We're in the heat of the moment, I'm upset. $200,000 is a lot of money. But like you said, you felt as bad about the error, but you also had as much energy about, Oh, what can we do to fix it? And I just loved the distinction and how he turned around an hour later and was able to come in and sit down and start to think about collaborative ways to solve it.

And I'd love what you said about, we've got to get past the current moment fact and get to a creative resolution problem solving mode, because nothing good happens from us pointing fingers and blaming, and staying hurt. Which is actually interesting, because I was thinking about the last 17, 18 months, whatever, 20 months, it is right now, in this world of pandemic. And you talked about that a little bit earlier in the intro part of the show. How has your business changed since the

pandemic? And then how have you seen it change for the clients that you work with, in leadership? Talk about what has life changed, like for you as a business leader, since the pandemic.

There was like, Oh, my goodness, my whole business has now been destroyed. But again, relying on some of these past experiences, I was able to quickly turn it into a, Okay, what can I do? That was the mentality I wanted to take. Okay, I can't get together like I used to, but what can I do? And I started thinking, Okay, I got into that creative mode. And a lot of people like to use the word pivot. It's overused, in my opinion so I'm not going to use

it as much. But there was. There was a little change in the direction. But what I loved about it was, I have now expanded my, the reach I guess you'd say, because I've had the opportunity of meeting people all around the world. It was at the, right towards the beginning of the pandemic, I started my own podcast. And that was a suggestion that someone had given to me as I was kind of brainstorming the situation. And

it was a great idea. And it allowed me to connect with people literally all around the world. As you mentioned, I still host that podcast, and you were kind enough to be a guest just a few weeks ago. And that's part of the magic of what happens is, a lot of times when you get into the creative mode, you find something new that you never would have discovered without the challenge or the obstacle.

And so now I've done a complete adjustment where I now don't just do the workshop, but I've created more of an online, or something that can be done in this kind of a format, a curriculum where I can be a little more proactive, and I can teach the principles in advance of when you might need them. Because there's two parts to it, we all know this. There's the proactive part, you learn and you train for something that's

going to happen or come up. But you also have the reactive, something has happened that you weren't quite as ready to handle, how are you going to respond to that. And that's kind of where coaching comes in is to handle the more responsive and reactive parts of it. And so it was a real great learning opportunity for me, as far as me and my business and what I've done. And so that's allowed me to be a kind of a renewed excitement and enthusiasm for my business and what I'm passionate

about. And you also asked Darrell, about the companies. We're learning a lot about people in general, that people can work from home. And for some, it's more difficult. And for some, they may not prefer to work from home. So we have what we call these hybrid workspaces now where you've got some people that are working in the office, some people are working from their homes, and there are people that are doing a little of both. And so that has opened up a whole new dialogue with and

for leaders. And that's been an interesting . . . as I've been talking to colleagues and some of the leaders and clients and whatnot about what they're going through. For some, there hasn't been much of a change, they're able to continue to kind of move forward. In some cases, they were already in a hybrid state because that was just easier, they could find better talent, and better employees by looking worldwide, and hiring those individuals that can work remotely. And it wasn't a big

deal. But for others, it was more of a disruption. But what's been interesting is to take what I would consider the same principles that we knew before the pandemic, but we're applying them in a new way. And we're finding ways to ask slightly different questions about engagement, and how are you feeling? And how are you doing? And do you have the tools and the resources that you need to be successful? And are you able to connect with the people that you need to? And so on and so

forth. So there's a lot of the same kinds of questions that we used to ask before, but we ask them with a different viewpoint now.

distinction there. I, I often say that in the moment of challenges as a leader, we have to embrace what the facts are and settle in on what the facts are. And then once we are okay with the facts, let's just say, Okay, these are the facts, let's make peace with those and move on to our new decisions. Sounds like that's what you did. You asked me a question on your show, I want to actually ask you, that was a great question.

And it has to do with team engagement, which is obviously one of the areas that you spend a lot of time in. Can you share one of your best pieces of advice about how to maintain team engagement in this current environment that we're in today? You asked me, and I've only got my perspective, but I'd love to hear yours, because you're not only your perspective, but you've got all the companies that you're advising.

can relate to. Probably one or the other, or both better, we'll find out. But let's imagine just a sports team, any team, any sport that you'd like. There are going to be different roles within that team. So I'll pick football. You have 11 players on either offense or defense. But each one of them has a different role, but they work together, and they work in their different areas of strengths. And we'll kind of talk about that if we

have time to get to that. But when you pull together a team, the entire team needs to work together and have that engagement together and move in the same direction. But each person within the team still is going to have their individual contribution to make. And so to a certain degree, there is a difference between team engagement and employee engagement. So you have to look

at both components. There is how each individual is performing in his or her job and their tasks and how they're relating to their work and how they're doing it as an individual. But you also have to look at the team dynamic. How are they collaborating together? Are they communicating well? Are they moving in the same direction? It's surprising how many times and we kind of hit on this a little bit earlier about that

definition of success. It's amazing how many times you can talk to a group of let's say, eight people that are on a team or in a department or division or whatever. And you ask them to define what the desired outcome is. How many of whatever the task may be, and how many different responses you'll get. They can't articulate and everybody has a slightly

different viewpoint. And so that's what team engagement is really meant to do, is to help make sure that everybody's on the same page, and that they're moving in the, in the right direction. So there is a difference between team engagement and employee engagement. And yes, you can measure it. And the easiest most obvious answer is, shocks people sometimes when I say it, is simply talk to your employees. Talk to them, ask them questions, ask the same question consistently, in the same way.

Learn to define the question, so that everybody knows what you're talking about, and help them gauge where they're at as an individual and as the whole team. That's how you can measure and therefore improve engagement both as a team and as individuals.

outcome. But we all have a different role and sports is a great analogy because when you get a particular player who thinks that their role is more significant than the others, then you start to see the imbalancing of performance. And I think that that is very indicative in a team role inside of an organization. Although it's it's very similar, although not as visible. I'd love your perspective on this one. As it relates to, I'm laughing because

it hurts. It's a memory in my own mind, where you've got a team, and I've run small businesses. I've run my own and advise small to mid sized firms. So I don't have the corporate ship mentality. But I do hear from enough corporate folks, that there becomes this area where in the corporate job the person who's on the team is like, yeah, they don't really value me. Yeah, I show up every day and do my thing. But I've been giving 110% for all these years and I'm not really getting

anywhere. So I'm just gonna do as little as I need to do to get my check because they're not going to pay me any more than that. In small to mid size firms that could be the death of a business. If you allow that type of energy to permeate your team's organization. You said it before. Eight, nine people in the room, can everybody articulate the same outcome that

we're heading for? And the answer a lot of times is no. You and I actually talked about it on your show when I said, you asked me a question something like, what's one of the best traits of a leader and first thing came to my mind was being able to clearly paint a picture for where the hell we're going. Let's talk about this person, or individuals that maybe are not working for the cause, but in actuality, are working against the cause?

differently. It depends on the person, but in some cases, allowing them to participate in the collaborative process of the decision making, you know, how did they arrive at that? It sounds like based on the description that you gave there, oh, did that person had something to say at some point. And they felt like their voice

wasn't heard. Most people if they have the opportunity to share their opinions, even if those opinions are not accepted or agreed upon in the end, they'll still be able to get on board with it. You may have a situation, this is kind of the second scenario that's noteworthy. And it's one that we don't often think about, but it is really important to think about. If you have an employee, or a team member who has for a certain period of time, and it's very indistinguishable what that

amount of time is. It may be a year or two or 10, where they've been a really good employee, a really good performer, and they've done a really great job. But now all of a sudden, the attitude has soured a little bit. There may be something going on in that individual's personal life that may be spilling over into the workplace. We have to be careful, because we don't want to get too involved in the personal part. But at the same time, it's okay to do that. You

can't pry. You can't invade privacy or do things like that.

Maybe they feel like they have more to contribute, but they're not being given that opportunity to for whatever reason. And sometimes it is necessary to have a little bit of a firmer discussion. But you need to do it the right way. You need to basically say, and it may not be the exact way to say it in each situation. But succinctly say, Look, this is the direction we're going. Do you feel like you can get on board with this, that you can get on the same page with us and move with us?

If not, then maybe we should help with this transition of you finding another solution. And another place to work. It sounds very counterintuitive, but believe it or not, that may actually be the best thing for all parties involved. Because if you can more or less part ways with that employee by helping them find what they're looking for. Maybe there's another position, maybe you can network. If you're the business owner, are there other people you know, that may have need for this

person's talent? It's not like you're sloughing off a bad employee, not at all. What you're trying to do is help that employee find a place that's more suitable for them. And that transition helps everybody feel good about making a change.

They just think, Hey, get your work performance up, there's a write up or there's a improvement plan, 90 day thing that has to be put in place. No! How valuable were they up until this moment, right? And I love the empathy approach there. Then the second side of it is, hey, maybe the direction has changed and they don't agree with the direction. And so there's some of the ego thing that plays into that. And then the other side of it is the business has just evolved over the years, you

know? I think about my current agency. We've changed our direction several times and some times the direction is needed, but someone on the team in a specific skill set or role doesn't necessarily fit into that scheme anymore. Going back to a sports analogy. We see it in sports all the time. Players are traded, not because they're bad players, they're traded because the scheme or the coaches gameplan, or the way that their skill set, they're probably better off being with

another squad right now. And in business, sometimes, like you said, it's like, can we get them placed in a better environment? Or can we help them find a better environment? And I think that's a great leadership perspective and approach. So I'm glad you really touched on that. I want to ask this question. Someone is working with you, and you've got all these years of experience. Let's talk about the two or three biggest outcomes.

The biggest benefits someone's going to have when they are finished with an engagement with you, whether that's coaching or consulting, pick one of them. But someone listening to this right now is in leadership. They own a business or they're in leadership, and one of the roles maybe C Suite, or maybe they're even at a smaller firm, where they have, they're wearing multiple hats. This is a conversation I hear about on a

regular basis, right? Leaders wear multiple hats, some of which they're not qualified for, but they volunteered for or they've been voluntold.

important. But the third is a competent leader that can help manage those two things, as well as all the people, but you need to have all three elements. And so depending on what someone may be struggling with, we'll identify and be able to help them move that needle in any one of those areas, and maybe all three, depending on how severe

the situation is. But one of the things that's so important, especially in today's culture, and with what's going on in the labor force right now, is that we have a lot of folks who are jumping ship and going to a different company. And so one of the big topics right now is retention. How do I keep my people and not let them go somewhere else? And you can't stop it in every situation but one of the biggest keys to that, and you may have heard this Darrell, most people in

entrepreneurship have. Is that most people don't leave the job, they leave their manager, and they leave the executives and the people that they seem to be out of sync with. And by improving the overall performance of the leader, we reduce that turnover. And I'm a big fan. It's a little bit harder to measure but it is really critical. When you have really positive culture, people will perform better. They'll provide more ideas, we talked about that creative energy that

a person or a team can have. And if you're doing things the right way, they'll start providing new ideas that can really drive the company forward in ways that maybe as the owner or the visionary you'd never thought of. And that's something that can really be powerful. And of course, if you have the right measurements in place to measure, we talk about KPIs and some of those kinds of things. And there are other ways to measure outcomes and

performances. But there are a lot of ways that we can help leaders specifically understand their people better, and how to in a very, very positive, appropriate way, get more out of their employees, in a way. I've talked a little bit about strengths, about identifying and developing the strengths of each individual, and how each person may be a little bit different.

And those are some of the strategies that are so so effective for leaders to utilize that will really drive the performance of the team to a much higher level.

is incredibly accurate. Who's looking over my shoulder and watching me kind of a feeling. But the whole point, the strategy behind strengths is to understand that everyone has something to offer. Everyone has something to contribute. To the team, to their own life, to the relationships around them, to the world around them. When you can help an individual not only identify them, but help develop those, they become a far greater contributor to the team and to their own lives than they would

have been otherwise. They're happier, they produce better, everything is working better. From an output perspective, from an efficiency standpoint, it's imperative for the leader to know about their team members. That doesn't mean that they can't do any particular job. A lot of times they need to do it a little bit differently, perhaps, but helping an individual understand what they're really good at. It's so critical, and it's so positive to . . . that's what I like when we talk about positive

culture. It's looking at what's good about someone and helping them use more of that to work and to contribute to the world around them.

has changed. I used to be the person who said, Let me get better at what I'm not good at until I realized that I can become good at it, but just because I'm capable, doesn't mean I should be investing the time in it when it's actually someone else's superpower. Right?

payroll company. But there is a season where sometimes we can take just trying to better our weaknesses, we can take too far is what I'm thinking I'm hearing you say

with. But the great thing, especially if you're the entrepreneur or the business owner, when you can identify what you are comfortable doing and what you're good at and can develop that and maybe identify those areas where you're not as strong, now you know what to look for when you're hiring.

the business. But if you're the head of operations, or and someone's the head of marketing, they may not be able to jive with your struggle and your side of the business. And so even though you both have equal leadership positions, you're over different aspects. Where can people find out more about you, your services? You've got a new program you're launching here. A group coaching program. Tell everybody how they can find it.

group coaching format. If there are leaders who are interested in joining a group coaching, we will go through kind of a standardized curriculum and talk about a lot of these principles that we talked about today and a whole bunch more. And join a group that will work together and learn about their principles and talk about challenges that they're facing. There are some also some opportunities for one on one coaching if you would like, that would be helpful as well. So feel free to reach out.

I'm also on LinkedIn, Shawn Richards. And I always appreciate the opportunity to connect with new people. So feel free to reach out, I'd love to talk with you.

how we built the show. And at the end of the day, leadership is one of those things. It's sort of like an ocean. It's moving in ebbs and flows. And there are gonna be times when the current's coming at you a mile a minute, and they're gonna be other times it's real peaceful and things are gonna be good. The truth of the matter though, is we always have to be refining our ability to be better leaders, build better teams. It is to me, there is no such thing as self made success.

There's no such thing. I hear a lot of people talk about it. And I'll go to the grave saying it. That if you ever do something great, you got to look back and say, who helped me get here? And so Shawn, what you're doing is fantastic. I got to ask this last question. Always the last question for the show. And that is, if for whatever reason today happened to be your last day here on this planet, what would you wish that everybody remembered you for?