It’s Not You: The Real Reason Adult Friendship Is So Hard & 3 Ways to Make It Easier

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I just read this book all about friendship, and it dives deep into something super fascinating, which is the science and art of conflict in friendship. And the research on this is really clear. See, friendship for women, it's totally different than the experience of friendship that you guys have. I mean, how women make friends, what we expect of our friends, why so many female friendships have drama and tension.

Frenemies, you've heard the term, right? We're going to dig into the science of why that's a thing. And you're going to also understand how they become so deep and intense and yet so fragile. You'll even understand why female friendship is often competitive, toxic, mean. with female friendship or if you're listening right now and you're like wow

There's someone in my life that's currently struggling, whether it's your sister, your daughter, your girlfriend, your wife, your roommate, your friend. How about your friend who's losing her mind right now because she is so worried about picking her bridesmaids and there's so much drama around it?

I'll tell you, you're not the only one who's having difficulty right now with female friendship. And this conversation, it's going to change the game because you're going to learn so many interesting facts. about how women make, break, find, and keep friends, how it's different than how guys do it. And regardless of where you are in friendship, you're going to love this. And I'm saying whether you feel right now like you got no one, you just got kicked out of your friend group.

Or you're bummed because you never see your female friends. Or maybe you're sad because you're growing distant from people you were once close with. Or you're just wanting to create new, awesome female friendships. Well, I want you to know. And there's a reason why.

We all struggle with this. It's not you. In fact, there are three factors that are required that are unique to female friendships. And these three factors are what create deep and close female friendships. And guess what? The same three factors. are the reason why friendships end. Here's the reality. Female friendship doesn't just happen. And it's also not only important, it's essential. It's what's going to help you create a meaningful life. And we're going to talk about it today.

Hey, it's your friend Mel. I'm so fired up that you're here. Welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm so excited about our topic. I'm so excited that you're here with me. It's always an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're a new listener, I want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm so glad you're here.

And because you made the time to listen to this particular episode, here's what I know about you. First of all, you probably don't have a lot of time, but the fact that you found time and made it. To listen to this means you value yourself and you also want friendship. And I got to tell you something, if you're here listening to this because someone forwarded this to you, You know what that tells me? It tells me that you have people in your life that really love and care about you.

And the person who sent this to you, they did it because they want to be closer to you. And they want you to feel empowered in your life. And you know what? That is exactly what a good friend does. And this is a really important area of my life, friendship and friendship with other women that I've gotten wrong for a very long time. I've also gotten it wrong as a mom as I was trying to...

counsel my daughters through those really traumatic things that can happen in middle school and high school. And then I read a copy of this book that I'm holding right now called Fighting for Friendship. the science and art of conflict and connecting in women's relationships. And I learned so much. This is the essential guidelines to creating and keeping female friendship alive in your life.

So I called up the author. Her name is Danielle Bayard Jackson. She's a best-selling author. She's also the director of the Women's Relational Health Institute. She lectures around the United States on the topic of friendship. And she is here today. To take away the mystery and the drama and break down why female friendship matters. She's going to share the unspoken challenges of female friendships, the differences between male and female friendship.

how to navigate conflict and challenges, and even when you need to let go of the friendship that no longer serves you. And also, you're going to learn, how do you bring up something that bothers you? How do you deal with a friend who's controlling, possessive, jealous? How do you deal with yourself when you start being like that in friendship? I know I've been that way. All of these experiences are normal. And the good news is, it's not you.

You got to understand the research. And once you do, you're going to also realize there's something you can do because you deserve amazing female friends. And today you're going to get the roadmap to creating them. So please help me welcome Danielle Byard Jackson to the Mel Robbins Podcast. So, Danielle, I am so excited you're here. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thank you for having me. This is awesome. Oh, I have so much to learn from you. I feel like I'm about to get a therapy session.

that is going to help me understand. my past and struggling with female friendship. And as a mom, watching my daughter struggle with female friendship. And so I'm just thrilled you're here. I'm thrilled to dig into your amazing book, Fighting for Our Friendships, The Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships. Here's where I want to start. I'd love to have you talk to the person who is with us right now.

They've either hit play in this episode and taken us on a walk or you and I are in their car or at work or in their kitchen as they've got their earbuds in. And I'd love for you to tell the person listening. What might change about their life and their friendships and how they feel about themselves if they take everything that you're about to share with us to heart and they apply it to their life? I think that by the time they're done listening or watching it, they feel instantly more confident.

less alone about any secret private struggles that they're experiencing in their friendships. And I'm hoping that it increases their level of optimism about all that is available to them in friendship. That's what I'm really hoping for by the time that we're done with this conversation.

You know, one of the things that I felt after reading your book is I felt like I understood myself better. I felt validated and seen in terms of the struggles that I had making friends when I was in middle school and high school and college keeping friends. And so I'm just super excited. about this conversation, because especially talking about that tension and frustration, that thing that we can't quite put our finger on, why are girls mean?

Why is it hard to connect with women? Why do friends come in and out of my life? Do I need to have a breakup? Like what is up with the tension? Why do I miss people that? I'm no longer friends with. I can't wait to unpack this. And where I want to start is you have such an interesting career. How on earth did you find yourself? in a career where you're writing books, researching, and teaching about female friendship?

First, let me say that becoming a friendship coach was certainly not on my vision board when I was 10. Okay, definitely something I fell into. I actually started as a high school English teacher. And so I had 10th and 12th graders who I was teaching. And I noticed that between classes and after school,

the number one thing the girls wanted to talk to me about was friendship stuff. So I didn't realize that at the time I was kind of unofficially coaching them through their weird, awkward friendship. And so the classroom was kind of the first place where I saw how issues of connection and belonging. directly impact everything else. Their attendance, because you're not even coming to school if you don't feel like you belong somewhere. Their confidence, their academic performance, their mood.

all related back to whether or not they felt like they had people at school. And so I did that for about six years and became the academic chair. And then I left and I got into the world of public relations. And I always joke that I made the foolish mistake of thinking, you know, I'm leaving that teenage drama behind because I'm working with adult women, you know? And it wasn't long before I realized that.

despite the fact that these women were charismatic, high-achieving extroverts, they too were secretly dealing with friendship stuff. And so I just thought, wow, at every stage of womanhood, we're trying to figure out

how do I better relate to the women around me? It's not an age thing. It feels like the great equalizer. It doesn't matter your background or generation. And so for the past, seven years, I've been leveraging my background in education to study what the research has to say about women's cooperation, communication, and conflict. So are women and men's friendships different? They are. They are. First, I want to say, because I know when we get into the differences between genders,

We're all looking for the same thing. We all want support. We want to have a good time. We want people who offer a sense of ease to our lives. But the research continues to show that there are some differences. I think the main theme I've seen in the research is in terms of intimacy. With women, they do experience more depth and platonic intimacy than men tend to in their same-sex friendship.

women tend to be more dyadic. So we're one-to-one, which accounts- What, dyadic? What is that word? You're an English teacher, so I'm going to have to be like, okay, wait, what? So like a dyad, D-Y-A-D, dyad. So one-to-one, we tend to couple off and that accounts for- that depth we experience, right? Because we're in this private, intimate vault, the two of us. Whereas men tend to congregate in larger groups. They tend to collect a bunch of casual...

friendships. And when you're in a big group, it affords you a certain level of anonymity. Okay. When I've got all the guys in the room, right? Women also in our conversations, we are more likely than men to talk about things like our mental and physical health. and family, things like that, that tends to center the self, those conversations.

But men are more likely than women to talk about current events and sports, which decenters self. So even in our conversations, it's very intimate. And then they find that women tend to integrate their friends into their lives to the degree of a sibling.

men to the degree of a cousin. And so, you know, I'm certainly not saying that men don't also experience these deep friendships. They do, but more often than not, you'll see that with women. You just... threw so much at us based on the research that made perfect sense. If you're listening and you're a guy and you've always wondered, why does my partner or my girlfriend have so much drama? Why did my sister have so many problems? There was...

so much in what you just shared with us, like even just the fact that it's true. Like if I think about my brother or my husband or my son, They do kind of just travel in groups. And like, if I think about myself, it's like since the history of time, I've been searching for that best friend. I've been pairing off into one person and I'm sure we're going to dig into this.

Even just understanding that the research is really bearing out, that we tend to go one-to-one, and the men and boys in our life tend to operate in groups. And what you just said I thought was genius about how if you're in a group... there is a bit of anonymity. But if you're with just one person or small groups of people that you feel this deep sense of belonging to, there's a lot more vulnerability. And a lot more that seems to be at stake. I know I've certainly felt that.

Yeah, it's hard to hide when it's me and you. And it's very reciprocal. If it's just you and I, you know, you talk, I talk. There's no confusion around whose turn it is to share.

I am more deeply known here. I am more accountable here because it's me and you. And I think that's also why we kind of see that running joke, you know, where your husband comes home from hanging out with the boys and you're like, oh my gosh, so did they have the baby? Why did they divorce? And he's like, oh, I don't know. Let it not.

So it's like a running joke, but there's some truth to that. Well, and you also said this thing about how male relationships, friendships tend to be more like a cousin. Yeah. And your relationship with the girls or women in your life is more like a sibling and sisters fight. That's right. And sisters have drama. That's right. And yet-

There's a big difference between what happens with your sister and what happens when there's tension or jealousy or possessiveness with a friend. One of the things that you've researched that... I'd like to start with is that you found that there's this framework. There are three affinities, you call them. that are necessary parts.

of female friendship. So can you explain that? Yes. So I call it the three affinities of female friendship. And I got really excited when I found this because I started to notice that it didn't matter which discipline I was looking at. anthropology, sociology, psychology. I kept seeing these themes emerge and I got really excited because I saw the same three things keep popping up in terms of what women highly prioritize in their friendships and what makes them close.

And by extension, if these three things are not there, it's probably the reason why there's a little tension, a little conflict. And so those three things are symmetry, support, and secrecy. Symmetry, support, and secrecy. Yes. So with symmetry, women really value these feelings of sameness and balance. and reciprocity and egalitarianism, okay? We're all equal.

We're the same. You are me. You know, even if you go to a bar and you see women talking, you're overhearing them say, you know, me too. Oh my God, same. Me too. So thriving on that. I am you, you are me. And then when that symmetry shifts. Or we start to sense like, oh, we're on different paths or she's maybe not like me. That tension of we're not in the same lane, what's going on here? So symmetry is really powerful. And that egalitarianism piece and symmetry feeling like equals.

So if you have a woman who you feel like she's starting to be judgy about your parenting or your business choices, I mean, the undertone or the subtext there is that Her choices are better. are superior, right? She's coaching you or talking down to you because we're supposed to be, we're the same, we're equals. But does it also happen that it's not that she's necessarily talking down to you, but that you're also beating yourself up because you're like, oh, well, she's better looking.

You know, everybody's attracted to her or she's getting more money than I am. And so you start to feel like not only are we not equal. but I'm now looking at you. And your example is a reason why I'm now beating myself up. A hundred percent. And so much of this is perception because maybe she's doing nothing wrong. But because of things happening in your life, you're perceiving this imbalance, right? So much of it is subjective.

Oh, that was me. I was a walking friendship red flag. You could have had an entire section of this book called Melanie Schneeberger, which is a mouthful of a name. That was my maiden name. I saw everybody's a threat. I literally don't think I had that symmetry in a lot of my friendships. And I can see how if you don't feel like we're in this together. then it would create this conflict and tension in your relationship with somebody else.

Sure, because how do I befriend the threat that doesn't even go together? So seeing you as an extension of myself and seeing women in general as an extension of myself, I am you, you are me, you're not my competition. I mean, it directly impacts the way that we engage with our friendships. So that symmetry piece is really important. And then we have support.

You know, there's some research that tells us that the number one thing women look for in their same-sex friendships is emotional support. So that means that there's nothing else. I expect you have my back. I expect some shows of solidarity, some gestures of emotional health. What makes that tricky is we so often don't.

articulate what support looks like. Because I think that as another woman, you ought to know. I shouldn't have to say it. That will certainly make things complicated. Every time you say something, I'm thinking about a dynamic that's negative. with a former friend or something that I did. Because even when you said that sentence about support, I mean, how many times have we sat alone?

And then when a friend comes to you and is like, I didn't even know you were struggling. You're like, well, you should have, you know, you just kind of feel this sense of what you should have known. Yeah. But you never said anything. I wonder how much of that is, you know how they say women have that sixth sense. If I believe it to be true, that women's intuition, which I think we do have, do I believe that you should be picking up?

my cues because we have that intuition. So should I have to say the thing? And I think a lot of us subscribe to the idea that if we are close, Me having to say what I want detracts from the closeness we're supposed to have. So you just knowing it without me saying it is evidence of how much you get me. But we don't expect that in any other relational context. So it just feels really unfair that your friends should be mind readers, but everybody else you anticipate needing to communicate.

what you need. I think if we can keep in mind that you'll never get to a point of closeness that transcends a need to communicate, you're going to have to say the thing. Well, I also just keep, I don't know why the word silent treatment is coming up, but I feel as though if a woman feels like she's not getting the support that she deserves from another female friend, one of the go-to...

immature behaviors and behaviors that create conflict and tension is you withdraw. And in your research, did you see a lot of that, like the tendency to pull back? sort of silently expecting that somebody's then going to come and ask you what's wrong so you get the support and the attention that you want.

Oh, absolutely. Whether that's because we don't know how to articulate it, whether it's because we have this belief that I shouldn't have to say it, she ought to pick up on the cues. I do see that. emotional distance followed by physical distance. I'm calling you less. I'm initiating less because I'm so turned off.

by that thing you failed to do. I'm now silently stacking the fences. And that's why you have so many of us who are like, I don't know, she kind of cut me off. I don't really know what I did because I'm not going to announce it. I've just been saving that up.

right? And I expect that you ought to know I shouldn't have to say that. It just kind of compounds the issue when we do that. As you're listening to Danielle right now, you're probably thinking of people in your life, friendships where this has happened. where you're recognizing that either the first affinity, which is symmetry, disappeared or something shifted it and the person no longer became same. I'm in it too. And whether you viewed them as a threat or they started talking down to you.

that that frenemy thing starts to come into play. And then I certainly am experiencing, as you're talking about support, And the sense that, well, I'm not getting the support and you should know what I need because we've been in this close one-on-one relationship. And then you start to resent the person. So you pull away. And it's so hard because if you ask anyone, we all think we're giving adequate support.

Like who among us is going to say, yeah, I don't support my friends. We all think we're doing a good job. So there's obviously a gap here when there's those of us who are walking around feeling. a lack of support it can get really tricky and then that third affinity is secrecy so this doesn't necessarily speak to literal secrets but the essence of that so feeling like you and I

are in this mutually exclusive vault where we engage in self-disclosure. I share, you share, because that is the glue of women's friendship, is sharing. And as soon as I start to have tension with you, I share less. Because me sharing and how much you know of me is probably indicative of how close we are, right? And then when there's tension, I'm sharing less. Or if I feel like you've shared outside of the vault.

If you're telling personal things to somebody else, I begin to question our closeness. I began to question, well, do you not trust me? Of course, intellectually, I know you can have other friends, but there's something around that sharing piece. If you tell somebody else first about the promotion, the pregnancy, the health scare, I do question, well.

Are we close? Because you didn't bring it here in the vault, right? I've even heard women who are disappointed when the friend just doesn't share. You feel like I'm the only one. pouring into this. She never tells me anything about herself. So that really is the glue of women's friendship is that mutual self-disclosure. When I was reading your book

And I read secrecy is one of these affinities of a female friendship that make it either very positive or very negative. I was like, secrecy? Wait, what? And then all of a sudden I realized, wait a minute. To the women I feel the closest to, we always joke, you'll be my best friend forever because you know too much about me. Otherwise, I'd have to kill you. You know what I'm saying? But there have also been moments where...

Close friends of mine have been struggling, and I find out six weeks later that something has been going on, and my first reaction is anger. that you didn't let me know. Why am I hearing this from somebody else? And so I realized I never thought about it in the context of, it makes you question. how close you actually are. It makes you question whether or not this person trusts you, whether or not this person feels that you're somebody that they can lean on.

And so it makes perfect sense, but it's so counterintuitive. Yeah, information is kind of like the currency in our relationships. And it's kind of the thing that we start doing as soon as there is tension is I share less. Right. If I start to feel like, I don't know, things have been weird. I'm probably not. sharing things with you and so I think as much as we can remember if we're trying to keep the friendship strong as much as we can remember

I've got to share things about myself. I've heard women who maybe were raised with different cultures who feel like sometimes that's counterintuitive because there's a sense of pride or respect. respect or an expectation that you don't share your business with others. We don't do that. And so I can honor that and respect that. But for the person who has that tendency or had that cultural upbringing that you don't share, you keep that to yourself.

I would challenge that person to think about the degree to which they feel close to people in their life if they're not doing that. Well, what I love about this framework is that when you put it in the context of all the other research in terms of the trends and the tendencies of how boys and guys... whether it's in groups where you can be a little bit more anonymous, things are a little bit more casual, you're bonding over the big thing, you're doing a lot of stuff together versus women.

who tend to bond over kind of intimate conversations, one-on-one shared experiences. you can see why if the connection is grounded in those three deeper things. And you feel connected to somebody because of this. reciprocity, so to speak, why you start to have this very intense feeling, because we've all had it, where you've been super close friends or you've been part of a friend group of women or girls, and then suddenly...

you feel like you're on the outside of it. Totally. And it feels like a deep betrayal and heartbreak and you're not quite sure why.

But I think you explained why, because the intimacy that is demanded in female friendships is very different. And it's also the source of all the conflict and the tension and the friction that starts to happen. And I do think if a person finds themselves... on the outskirts or there's been some kind of like this tectonic shift that was happening slowly and you're like, things are different.

to kind of look at those three things and see if you can trace it back. Did somebody perceive that there was a change and we can no longer relate to one another? Is someone secretly feeling like you didn't support me?

As someone feeling like you've been sharing outside the vault or you're not my person to share with anymore, it's likely that you can trace whatever your present conflict is back to those three things. And just because there is tension that emerges in one of those domains doesn't...

mean immediate dissolution of the friendship. That's information I can use to know how to recalibrate or to have a conversation so we can get back to our equilibrium. But hopefully it's a good starting point for people who are struggling to find that language. I also think with the support piece,

It's interesting because when you go through a struggle in your life, whether it's in a relationship or a health scare, or maybe you lose a job or something's going on with one of your kids, you tend to withdraw. And then you do feel a little bit, or at least I have in periods of my life where I struggle, like what I'm going through is a burden to other people. And so I don't want to share.

And so there's those moments where you withdraw because you actually need support, but you're embarrassed or you feel just the heaviness of it. You don't want to talk about it. But then your friends are left wondering, where'd you go? Yeah. Where'd you go? And so I can see how each one of these factors, it really gives you both something to look at that makes it not personal, but also something to look at it.

So you can be more compassionate with other people and you can be more compassionate with yourself because everybody's changing all the time and so is your life. Do you have an opinion about friendship breakups? Like, do we need to actually stop being friends with people? We do have friendships that end. I think we know that intellectually, like, oh, friends don't last forever. But when it happens, it becomes very difficult. to make sense of. I see that we have a lot of shame around that.

I think we put a lot of value on longevity in friendships. So when it's over, we start to think what's wrong with me? What did I do wrong that I can't keep a friendship going? I always encourage women to think about If you're feeling that shame over not being able to make a friendship last, how do you measure success in a friendship? Is it one that never ends?

Is it one where we loved each other really well during this time that we were friends? But friendship breakups are really difficult and sometimes they do dissolve. Why are they so difficult? I'm thinking about a friend of mine that was my most favorite human being when I was in college. And we even to this day have matching tattoos. And we had a very bad breakup. And this was over 30 years ago. And I still think about her. Is that normal?

Why am I doing that? Because I don't think about the boyfriends that I had huge breakups with and they were inside me for crying out loud. And, you know, I like had the love like drug inside of us. Like, why? Is it the breakup with a female friend? Because my husband has grown distant from people. He's had breakups with people. He doesn't think about them. Why do we do this? Am I normal, Danielle? That's what I'm asking you.

You are. You are. I have some of those too. And I kind of maybe see them as like my ones that got away, maybe like a platonic. Could we have worked that out? I still see things and it makes me think of her. My theory is that because of how. deeply we integrate our women friends into our lives.

naturally I'm still thinking about you when that's over, right? And there are even some theories that find that women's relationships become a part of their self-concept. So how I see myself is largely through the lens of how you. see and experience me. And if you think that I am interesting and funny and lovable, and then that friendship ends. I'm questioning, am I still interesting and lovable and funny if she would leave me? And so I think it's natural to still grieve.

over losing friends to still be confused about. what went wrong, what we could have done differently. And then also have that kind of influence the way we engage in friendships moving forward, right? If you have a friend who told you, you're just too much. Am I going into new friendships a little tapered down? Because I don't want to be too much.

So it does leave a lasting impression when we have friendships with other women that end. You made me have a bit of a breakthrough and epiphany about this topic. As I was listening to you and I was thinking about my friend, it made me sad about who I was at that period of my life and the fact that she distanced herself. And it reminds me that I was not in a great place and I was not a good friend. And because it's unresolved, it keeps that part of me.

in some way kind of alive inside me. Does that make sense? Totally. And that if she had come back into my life, it sort of feels like it helps with the acceptance that you've grown as a person. And that's why I also feel like I probably hold on to this a little bit, that I have a lot of regrets about how I acted. I was like that clingy, possessive, lying, jealous friend. Oh my God, thank God you and I didn't know each other back then.

And I'm a different person. Yeah. And so there's something about romantic relationships that I'm able to forgive myself and move on. But when a friendship ends, you don't really quite ever replace somebody. in that category in that same way. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. I think with romantic breakups as well, it's so easy to dismiss it as

well, that wasn't my person. I think that helps us to be able to move on. You also kind of know going into a romantic relationship, this might not work out. You know, let's just see. That's so true. But you're rarely expecting or considering the end at the beginning of friendship. I just know that I like you. So let's get this thing going. I'm not prepared.

or even considering an ending. And I think that makes it even more disruptive when it happens. And then, like I said, because it's so integrated into our lives, it becomes difficult sometimes to move forward. Danielle, I want to take a quick pause. Let's give our sponsors a chance to say a few words. And I know as you've been listening to this.

that women in your life are coming to mind. Maybe old friends that you've lost touch with are coming to mind. Maybe there are women that you wish you were closer friends with. Share this with them. This is an extraordinary resource that will bring you closer. to the young women and the women in your life. And so be generous with it. I know I'm going to be. I cannot wait for my daughters to listen to this. I'm going to send this to my mom.

I'm going to send this to my best friends, to some of the friends that I don't talk to very often because I know this information is going to help them as much as it's helped me. All righty, don't go anywhere. We're going to be waiting for you after this short break. Stay with us.

Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel. Thank you for sharing this. Thank you for still being here. Thank you for taking the time to listen to something that is going to help you or someone that you love create closer female friendships. Danielle, what I love about your book, Fighting for Our Friendships, is that you not only go straight at this,

And you unpack all the things that we, or I'll speak for myself, I got profoundly wrong about navigating female friendships. But what I also love is that the same three-part framework that you say is present. for all deep connections between girls and women, it also explains what's missing when you start to feel conflict and frustration. And so let's go to conflict. let's talk about all of the things that are really challenging about female friendships. And if I turn to page 44 in your book,

There's this concept that you talk about. I mean, we even have a term for it, former friendships. I don't think I'd ever hear my son or my husband say former friendships. And yet when I read your list, the roommate turned bestie that I outgrew. The college friend who phased me out when she got a boyfriend. Oh, that was me. coworker bestie who disappears when you start working somewhere else.

My mom friend, who I grew close to but eventually lost trust in. The friend I had to release because she didn't reach out enough. The church friend who cut me off because I didn't reach out enough. I have every one of those or I've been that. Why is this a phenomenon? There is research that shows that... girls, young girls, have more former friendships.

than boys but i want to say this because i know it's tempting for some people to hear that and say well yeah because girls are petty well yeah because girls are always upset about something and i hear that a lot from men and women sadly Here's my response to that. The research finds that our friendships are deeper, but that they do dissolve at a faster rate. Really? Why? I don't think that's because we just always want to be in some drama.

If you are so deeply integrated into my life as my friend, okay? We're sharing resources. You're helping me raise my children. You're giving me career advice. Like you're in this with me, right? then yeah, it increases the chances that there might be some friction because you're all up in my business. Yeah. Okay. I'm less likely to fall out with somebody who I'm not even close to.

So if men are keeping their friends kind of at a distance and we check in three times a year, you probably aren't having fallouts because you're not that up close. If you're in my business as my female friend, there's a higher chance. that there is going to be something that goes wrong. So I can keep you at arm's length.

And be your best friend for 20 years. No problem. Because I'm checking in once a quarter. Right. When we go play basketball, you know, I'm not talking about details of my life. We could be best friends all day. So there is a risk in having somebody who's so deeply close to you, but then we've got to get to the business of trying to navigate that when those conflicts arise.

You know, one of the things that I keep thinking about is that friendships don't end. They just sort of come in and out and they're flexible and it's helped me be less judgy of myself. But it's interesting that the research says that... friendships for girls and women dissolve faster and more often than it does for boys and men. And I do think the missteps start to happen when we're little.

And we're forming friends for the first time because I'm not sure anybody ever teaches you how to make friends or why you need friends. One question I have before we kind of go backwards is why are women so jealous of each other? Why can you tell? Like guys might be jealous of some guys. car or his house or vacations or you know that he's just a good dude that a lot of people like but you don't feel it. You know, first I'll say that I don't think being competitive or envious is exclusive.

to women. We're all competitive. We all get a little envious. And I think it's because we use our friends as a measure of our own progress. So you're very close in my proximity. So it kind of shows me, oh, are we... having babies at this rate? How am I doing with my money and my style? I'm looking to my friends purely from a sociological perspective to see am I on track, right? So we're all feeling a little like we're using our friends to gauge how we're doing. I think what's so hard around...

envy that women experience with one another. I do wonder to what degree the patriarchy influences that. If I'm hearing voices telling me I need to look a certain way and have a certain progress in my life and my friends are in very close proximity, I'm kind of projecting that onto them. If they're making certain choices or making certain advances and I'm not.

how I'm doing. But I wonder also how much room we have to express that without looking like the jealous friend. So we harbor it secretly or we monitor because I don't want to look like I am jealous. So I keep it inside and that. comes out in terms of resentment or shade or frenemies, right? So it does become kind of sticky. You know, I want to build on that because I have a theory about this. Okay. And especially given that you were a English teacher in a high school.

and you're a mom, and I'm a mom of two daughters, and you have a daughter. So if you take it as fact that the average age that a girl gets her period is the age of 12, Like that's a huge life-changing event. And what happens when you get your period, at least in today's world, is it's like a very public event. It seems like everybody knows in your class, all the girls know, even the boys know, and your body starts to change and you feel this loss of control.

that is very public and then there's an added layer around the fact that what do people say when you get your period you're 12 years old and what are the first thing they say oh well now you're a woman oh you're a woman now So you become sexualized. And that also, I believe, in a very subconscious and subtle but not so subtle way, changes your relationship. to other women. And I personally believe that two things happen. Number one, it's been very well researched, as you know.

how girls' confidence drops off a cliff between the age of 12 and 14. The age of 12, boys and girls have the exact same levels of confidence. By the age of 14, girls experience a 46% drop in confidence. But check out what they're also saying in this research about friends. That 60% of girls by the age of 14... are not confident that they can make new friends.

I mean, in this study, here's a girl who's 18. This would have been somebody in your English class. I'm not confident in making friends because I'm afraid of making mistakes. I feel like everybody's so smart and pretty and I'm just this ugly girl without friends. I feel that if I acted like my true self, that no one would like me.

And there's this memory that I have of being in middle school. And it's kind of when the dances start. And I don't know if it's like this now. I mean, I'm literally talking 40 years ago. But when the slow songs would start. There's this phenomenon where the guys... pick a girl to dance with. And it's in that moment that you start to see that there are girls that get all the attention.

And I know in those moments, I literally hated my best friends because they were getting picked and I wasn't. And I feel like there is something that happens then. that really in many ways makes you feel like you're against the other girls in competition for something other than grades, other than sports. It's this social and sexual status that feels largely out of your control. Yeah. At least that's... what I felt. And I'm just wondering if

thoughts about that? There are researchers that lean into intrasexual competition. What does that mean? What's intersexual? When you have women who are vying for the attention of males and some would argue that it's a purely evolutionary thing that when you do. begin to menstruate and your body is now showing and developing that that does now attract the attention of males. So I could see that being the reason why during that middle school period, we feel like...

something's shifting, something's going on. You know, I even talked to a woman, her name is Dr. Hannah Bradshaw. And we even looked at, you know, guys, girls versus girls, girls. And she also said that during that stage.

how women perceive each other. Maybe we start treating her differently if she does draw the attention of men and start hanging out with them. But she finds that it's a bi-directional relationship that girls who are around boys and boys come sniffing around and they're hanging out. We find ourselves looking at the girl like, oof. Who does she think she is? Because she's around these males. Yes.

If you ask the girl why she's hanging out with males all the time, she'll say that she's over there because the girls are mistreating her. So it's a sort of refuge and protection. So it's kind of like this thing that continues to emerge in a cycle. And I definitely see that too. Well, it's an important thing to talk about because I think these feelings are very normal. And when you don't know what to do with them, you either aim them at yourself or you aim them at the other person.

The other thing I wanted to talk about related to middle school is that, you know, this elementary innocence and kind of navigating friendship and everybody's trying to figure it out. We're all in it together. What the heck is that phenomenon? that happens in middle school where everybody's like, I need a BFF. We're Biffles. And you start to become defined by, oh, well, Danielle is Susan's best friend.

And even the seeking out of that alliance becomes something that is very prominent for girls that age. But I don't see it happening in the same way for guys. What is that about? I think that goes back to a little bit of what we said earlier around guys just... collecting just casual relationships, being on a squad. It's not really close or meaningful, but they're on a squad.

We even kind of promote the idea to young girls. We'll even ask them from a young age, is that your best friend? Is that your bestie? Do you want something for your best friend? And we've got the chains with the hearts from Claire's best friend.

So from the very beginning, being trained to identify who that one person is. And I've also heard it said that you know relationships are a woman's primary resource and I wonder if it's kind of like this social currency especially at that age is how many friends do you have and we see the girl with lots of friends and what do I

what determinations do I begin to make about her? She must be likable and cool. So the girl who's got a lot of friends, but especially if you have a bestie, because that means you matter. This is your alliance. You have somebody who sees you as important. And so that best friend phenomenon, I definitely see emerge at that stage.

What would you say to the person who's listening to you right now who either experienced not having a best friend or not feeling like they were part of a good friend group or they're seeing somebody that they care about? I would tell that woman, you are not alone. There's some research that finds that 40% of adults don't have a best friend. So there's a lot of people out here who don't have that maybe in this particular season of their life. It doesn't make you any less important.

or worthy or lovable to not have that one person. And if you don't, Ask yourself if you can get all the things you need. from the collective rather than the singular. I think it's a romantic notion, this idea of the one person who offers you multiple things. She's your mom, friend, your happy hour buddy. It's very cool when that one person satisfies all those things.

But until maybe you find that person, can you find that from the collective, from multiple people, you're getting laughter, you're getting growth opportunities, you're sharing resources. Are you getting that from the village? Because maybe right now that's more important than having the one person who satisfies all the things. And so I just...

need that woman to know you are not alone. There are so many people who are in the same boat and to resist the urge to internalize that and to wonder what's wrong with you because you don't have that right now. And if you're a parent or you're just worried about a girl or a young woman who feels like she's just been iced out of her friend group, I remember... When our daughters were in high school, one of my close, close friends, her daughter was going through something and...

her friend group dropped her. And I just remember how many tears her mother and I had over what do you do? I mean, this kid has been basically, you know, the words feel so dramatic, kicked out of. excluded, just drop. What would you say to a person that feels like that's just happened to them? It's really hard, especially as a parent to not want to drive up to that school.

And find those girls and be like, what the heck is your problem? It's hard. So you're saying we shouldn't text them or their parents or get involved? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, no, it's hard, right? Especially as a mama bear, you're like, I want my girl. to feel confident and to belong and how dare people reject her. That is painful. And it's painful to watch your babies go through anything. In the meantime, because a lot of times we talk about handling what you can control.

That is hurtful. And there's even research that finds that being rejected socially lights up the same parts of your brain as experiencing physical pain. So she's not being dramatic. It is hurtful. to not have people. And it's even worse sometimes when you don't know what you did wrong. And so what do you do or what should you say or do you not say anything at all? Do you just like give the person space to grieve? Do you acknowledge it? Like I didn't.

I don't know what to do. Well, one of the things we can do is to share with that young woman who's in that situation is what she can do right now is to continue to show up, let's say in this. situation at school, to show up to school, to be kind to others, to confidently go about her day and to have connections with people. And if she feels comfortable going to one of the young women who she trusts most in the group, because sometimes we...

feel like it's us versus this large capital G group. So go to a person in the group who you trust most and say, hey, you know, I'm noticing we're not talking as much what's going on, right? And to ask. And at that point, they're responsible for letting us know what it is or not. But if there are people, they would let us know. If they were your people, they wouldn't take pleasure.

in isolating you. If they were your people, they'd call you in and not push you out. And so it could be a good exercise for her in terms of identifying who your people are. And so suffering any kind of loss. is really painful. And like we said, especially women's friendships because we're so deep. But these are not your people. And it's tricky because you think, but no, mom, they are. Those are my girls. But your people would never take delight in pushing you out.

watching you agonize over what you did wrong and not coming to relieve some of that confusion and distress. They're not your people. I had my, one of our daughters use this term a ladder and she was remarking about how she's in this period of her life and she lives in a part of the world and is in an industry. where she says that it's like you're with your people on a certain rung and we're all in it together. and we commiserate, and we're bonded, and we're kind of...

But then the second somebody goes to the next rung in the ladder, either in this city, in a social climbing group, or in this industry, and you get some success, it's like the rung that you were with disappears. Even seeing that, that somebody that you thought that you were close with and next thing you know, you're part of a bigger group and next thing you know, you're on the outside, but they're staying on the inside and they're...

That is a painful thing because you lose the group and you lose the person that you were close to before the group. 100%. Yeah, that is really painful. I think those are the moments where those three affinities of female friendship come out to play. When we no longer feel the same, when we begin to take different priorities, different values emerge. And even though I have a history with you.

an affection for you. It's just not working out. I think sometimes it's even easier to release friendships when we can easily identify a villain. It feels easier. When you betray me, I'm upset. but it's easier to let go. It's harder to let go when I still like you. But things have shifted and it's simply not compatible despite my desire to stay in relationship with you. Might be even more painful.

Because I can't make sense of it. And I don't know why we just don't work, but we don't. And so again, I think intellectually, we know that friendships dissolve, but it is really hard when it happens in real life. think one of the reasons why there is a lot of frenemy and conflict and jealousy is because The process of not feeling as close to a friend is really confusing and painful. And so turning somebody into a villain and blaming their behavior.

is I think in many ways your subconscious attempt to actually cut off the pain that you're feeling because you can't explain it. If it's just, we're just growing apart. That doesn't feel as complete as they asked me out. She's now like thinks she's better than me. That is, I think, something that we do to process that confusing feeling that I used to be close to you and now we're just not and I don't know what to do with it because I miss that closeness.

and this isn't making sense. So I'm going to just leverage some anger and some judgment here. What do you do when you're jealous of your friends? Yes. Okay. This is a big one. So first, I like to look at the difference between envy and jealousy because I know sometimes we use them synonymously. So the way I kind of separate the two is that envy... involves two people and jealousy involves three. So if I'm envious, that means you have something I want.

This is between you and me. And jealousy means I'm scared I'm going to lose what I have to this third party. It's going to come in and take my friend. So like I'm jealous of my friend, maybe a new girl enters. the villa and I'm like, oh, what's happening here? But whenever we are feeling jealous or envious of a friend, I think the first thing to do if we're feeling envious

is to normalize that. And I know people say that a lot, but something I've noticed, especially with women, is that almost feels like the cardinal sin. Like we can talk about every other kind of friendship conflict, but don't accuse me of being jealous. I don't even want to be in the proximity of being, you know, an envious friend, right? So we've got to normalize. If you have somebody you love who's closely integrated into your life.

And she starts to have things that you kind of want for yourself, that it's normal to feel that way. And I think it can signal to us our values and desires. So if you get pregnant, I've been wanting a baby and I'm like, oof. I felt that pinch totally normal because that's something you want for your life. Totally normal. What do you do with it, though? I think the difference... Because we then avoid somebody, right? Sure.

If somebody's renovating their kitchen, I now can't deal with being at your beautiful house when I go home to my hovel. Like somebody's getting pregnant and I just had a miscarriage. I don't want to be near you. Yep. You know, somebody just got engaged and I just broke off a relationship of two years. I don't want to be near you. And I struggled with this profoundly. I wanted to be happy for my friends. I wanted to celebrate and be able to authentically feel joy for somebody else.

And there are moments in my life where I could not. to say, I noticed that I couldn't have joy for somebody else because the lack in my life ran so deep. That it went beyond the joy I was able to muster up for my own friend. And then the shame you feel sometimes for that. This is my friend. I can't even be happy for my friend. What's wrong with me? So I think it helps to identify, okay, this is normal.

then I think the next step becomes working through that, sometimes privately and sometimes with our friend, depending on how close we are. And here's what I mean. If I'm noticing, gosh, when I'm sharing space with her, I notice myself maybe making passive aggressive remarks or... Because now it's messing up my ability to show up as a good friend because this thing runs so deep. So I need to go and look at what's that about? Do I need to remind myself that?

There's no comparison and life is not linear. And this is her path and my path and things will happen for me. Do I need to evaluate the degree to which I'm operating with a fixed mindset? Because her having... is not a sign of me lacking. It's just her having.

And what's available to her is equally available to me. And the timing is just different, right? I might need to go and coach myself through that so I can be a good friend around her. If it is something deeply tender, like infertility and things like that, which I see, I've seen women who...

have expressed to a friend. I love this for you. I'm happy for you. And they can share certain boundaries. Hey, I don't know if I'll be able to make it to the baby shower, but I am sending you a little something, girl, because I want your little one to have this, right? And having friends who can hold space for that. You know, I had a friend share with me her child was going through very, very significant and difficult mental health challenges.

And she said to me, and I will always respect and admire her for this. She said, I'm so happy for you, but I am pulling back. on our friend group because every time I see one of your kids moving through life and hitting these milestones of graduating or going to prom, it is such a painful reminder that my child cannot right now. And having her... Say that instead of...

Her forcing herself to show up and put on a fake smile, which of course then you just feel as this weird conflict. And I think we do that a lot. I think that is something where you said it, your lack. is so big or the struggle that you're in is so big you can't actually authentically access the joy or happiness to express for somebody else. That is a normal thing that happens to us.

And being able to say, I love you and I wish I could show up and I can't, but no, I'm still cheering for you. And I haven't done that in my life. But this person in my life did. And I was like, wow, I totally understand this now. And I feel closer to you. Right. And I think we're afraid to admit these things because we're going to be shunned. And it's the opposite that happens. Danielle, I just want to hit pause real quick.

so we can give our sponsors a chance to say a few words. While you're listening to our sponsors, I know that a number of your friends or people in your life have come to mind. Share this with them. This is an incredible conversation for every woman, every girl to be listening to. It's a free resource. It's so empowering. Don't go anywhere. Because Danielle and your good friend Mel Robbins, we're going to be waiting for you after a short break. So stay with me.

Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. And today you and I are spending time with Danielle Byard Jackson. She wrote the bestselling book, Fighting for Our Friendships, and she's unpacking... the research that is incredibly eye-opening about the unique nature of female friendships. So, Danielle, how do you address... a friend who just disappoints you, whether it's in the category of not offering support, like you experience a loss of a family member and they don't show up.

They missed your wedding or they missed your birthday. They hated your boyfriend or your girlfriend or they currently do and you're aware of it. They're not happy for you when you get that raise or you're able to buy your dream car. What do you do in those moments where your friend's behavior or energy or attitude or lack thereof is disappointing? Yeah. So. We are going to be disappointed by our friends because they are fallible.

regular degular people, right? So I think making room for that upfront is helpful. My friends are going to let me down. I know that I would like to think of myself as a good friend and I have good girlfriends who could say, Danielle disappointed me that day with what she said. So I'm thankful for their grace. But I think a couple of things to evaluate when that does happen are the severity of it.

How big was the disappointment, right? The consistency of it. Is my friend always letting me down in this way, right? A lot of times disappointment comes from unmet expectation. Oh, you have research about this. Actually, I'm page 45 of the book. Yes, you do. You've got great research about this. Oh my God. Let me read to you from your book. This is on page 45. Another reason why our friendships can be fragile, especially compared to male friendships, is because we have high expectations.

A review of 36 studies found that women wanted more from their close relationships than men did especially when it comes to reciprocity and self-disclosure, which means we are setting and expected to meet high standards. And this means that we also register more relational violations, identifying more wrongs in our friendships.

One study researchers observed college dorms to monitor the number of roommate reassignment requests. Most of them came from women. Yes. And so this research to me suggests. that we have these super high expectations of people. A lot of times we don't even tell them what they are. And then when they don't meet our expectations, the research bears out.

are finding wrongs. Yeah. Do you think that's part of the problem? Absolutely. And that research goes on to say that this is in both romantic and platonic relationships. have these higher expectations of what's supposed to happen and identifying more wrongs than a man might in our relationships. But there are some things that we can do to kind of close that gap. The first is how often are these disappointments happening?

The second is, what are my expectations and have I expressed them? Which we said earlier, a lot of people feel like, but I shouldn't have to. Sometimes you do. And then also, can I communicate my disappointment afterward? You have permission to say to a friend, Yeah, I'm kind of bummed because I thought you'd come to my event last night and I was excited to have you there.

You have permission to say that. And the right people will express to you, oh my gosh, I had no idea that it mattered that much. Sometimes we underestimate how much the thing meant to you. I thought that, you know, you have events all the time. I didn't know that you cared. So I'm more interested in the response after you say the thing, not just that the friend disappointed you. Once I give you that data and I say, I thought you would show up.

Or when my dad passed, I wanted you here. I didn't want the texts. I wish you came and sat with me. How do they respond? What's next? That's what I'm more interested in. Is there an expression of regret? Is this a moment to help facilitate? okay, now I have a better understanding of what you're looking for. That's what I'm more concerned about as opposed to the friend disappointed me. And I think that can help and maybe stop us from...

prematurely ending some friendships. Well, see, I think this is a lot of what you also write about in your book. is that all of this conflict and these moments that are normal and human and in every friendship, it's a give and a take. We both have a little bit of responsibility here in terms of what's happening.

that it's either an opportunity for you to distance yourself or an opportunity for you to lean in and actually join in with somebody. And, you know, one of the things as I was really researching the let them theory. And I know personally, I have lived in fear of disappointing people my whole life and bent myself into knots to try to make sure nobody's disappointed. is that all of a sudden it occurred to me, well, isn't it a good thing if a friend is disappointed that you didn't show up?

Doesn't that just mean they wanted you there? Right. Isn't that a sign that somebody really cares about you and that you matter versus what I turned it into my whole life, which is somehow it's some indictment against me? Like if you can look at it that way, if somebody respects you enough to say, I was disappointed that you forgot my birthday and they want to talk to you about it.

To me, that's a green flag in a friendship. Absolutely. And, you know, unless, of course, you're like, you bet that, you know, they're doing all that stuff. But what are warning signs that a friend is not? or no longer good for you. One of the ones I like to lead with is if you don't like who you are when you're together. I know I've been a part of friendships where...

I am not acting like myself when we get together. And I don't know what prompts that. It just happens so stealthily. But when I'm with other people, I enjoy who I am. I'm proud of who I am. So the first indicator is you don't like who you are when you're together. Another might be after you're spending time together, you find yourself totally depleted.

It is exhausting. Whether she's super negative or you find yourself doing the mental labor of performing and you feel like you can finally relax, right? That could be a sign that it's not good for you. Certain goals you have for yourself are being delayed by being in this friendship, whatever that looks like for you. I know sometimes we have friends who are like, you're not like you used to be. You used to be fine with this. You used to be. And there are things I want to do with my life.

new directions and goals that I have, but I feel like I'd be betraying my friends by pursuing these new goals that I have for myself. that could be something to look at as well. And then the last thing I'll say is whenever trust feels like it's so lost, that there's no way to recover and get that back. That can be difficult for maintaining a relationship. As I'm listening, I'm like, you're right. Why do I ignore those things and stay in it and work harder? Yeah, yeah.

And it's hard because I know when we see these videos on social media and it's like, nine signs she's toxic or nine signs. One thing I want to say about the whole toxic thing is... Sometimes it's not that this person's so toxic, even though there are people with ongoing toxic behaviors, but sometimes it's just our dynamic. Maybe it's not her. It's just there's something that happens when we come together. I don't like who I am and something's weird here.

But all your other friends, that works for you. They think you're delightful. That's awesome. But there's something about our makeup, like quite literally our chemistry, that when we come together, it doesn't work. And so I think it goes back to what we said earlier. It's easier when you can easily identify the villain. to separate and make sense of what's happening. It's harder to just say, I just think it's us. I don't enjoy it. And I don't like...

who I become. And that's harder sometimes because there's more nuance in gray area. Yes. And it requires you to take responsibility for your part in it. And what I love about that is that I hate it when people label other people toxic. There's behavior that's toxic, but the finger pointing and the ghosting and the just... dropping a friend without a conversation, in my opinion, that's a sign that you're the one that's immature and engaging in toxic behavior. That not actually trying to...

work it out or have the conversation that there's something off with us. Let's take a little space. And as I've gotten older, My opinion about friendship ending has changed. I just feel like friendships are very flexible. They come, they go. At some point in the future, a decade from now, who knows what's going to happen and how life might bring us back together. But leaving the door open.

for people to change and for you to change and for circumstances to change has really helped me in being a better friend and being more compassionate and seeing that. I own at least 50% of what's happening here because my energy is just as powerful as the other person's energy. And as I change, things are going to change. And one of the things I really loved about your book, and I cannot wait to share this conversation, especially with my daughters.

having a friendship with somebody who's controlling or possessive. Because I do think that's a predominantly female thing in friendship. What do you do if... you've got that friend who has your location and you're at the dinner with somebody else. And all of a sudden you get that text. Hey, I see that you're right by me. What's up? Like, how come you didn't call me? What are you doing? And you're like, oh my God, like, dude. I think a lot of what lives up under that.

controlling nature is anxiety and anxious attachment, which women are more susceptible to. And so I'm anxious about you being away. And where did you go? And what do you think? And what's going on? And so when we have a friend who's controlling us,

controlling decisions we make. She's anxious over the fact that you're making decisions that are not what she would make. You're doing what she doesn't want you to do. There's a lot of anxiety about not being able to handle or manage or predict the outcome. And having that tendency needs to get in check because it's hard to be in relationship with the person who needs you to.

Think like they do. Be where they need you to be. Be available when they want you to be available. Because the whole thing about healthy friendships is there's space for us to be together and that interdependence. And there's also space for me to be myself. And also in always trying to do that dance between us and our togetherness and me and my individuality.

But when you have people who begin to suffocate that part, there's going to be an issue. Danielle, what do you do when you have a controlling friend and their controlling nature is really starting to get annoying? It helps to package it as an invitation and not an accusation. Oh, wait a minute. An invitation?

Not an accusation? How do I do that? Because it's easy to say, you know, you're texting me all the time. You have to stop or I'm overwhelmed, right? So I'm going to invite you to participate in the way that feels good to me. So maybe instead I'll say, hey, I know you like to check in throughout the day, but I think it's best for me to check in on the weekends. Like I love our little phone calls on the weekend. Do you want to do Saturdays or Sundays?

Where would you when would you like to talk? Because for me, it's overwhelming. Right. And that's me kind of gracefully moving you toward what I need you to do. You just literally, I just felt like his class in session with Professor Bayer Jackson. I mean, I just felt like a teacher who sort of redirects you with a smile. Which, and you know, that's a part of it too is sometimes playfulness. When I hear people talk about

It sounds really scary and serious. That's why I avoid it. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. And I show up with a fake smile even though I'm jealous of your whole life. You know, where appropriate. We can address some things with playfulness. And I think it's wise to do that sometimes because...

It helps us to relax, right? If you're being playful, it shows that there's no threat around because we can be playful. You can be playful and feel in danger. Okay, well, here's another one. Here's a big one. You've been invited to something and your friend has not. I know this group is not going to invite this person. That's always really tricky. And we have to take into account things like, I know that they...

are not friends, but they're inviting me. So, you know, and you're trying to figure out how do I maintain a sense of loyalty, but also being, it's really tricky. I'll say this to the person who's being controlling, if I may speak to her. There are a couple of things that have to happen so that people don't experience you that way. One is you've got to figure out the importance of having multiple friends.

Because you might unintentionally be putting pressure on that one friend to be your everything. And she wants to be so many things to you, but it's not fair. So how can you broaden your friendship? The second thing you have got to figure out if you find yourself being anxious and controlling is what is the fear?

What am I afraid of if I loosened my grip? Am I scared I would be forgotten? Am I scared I might be left behind? There's something deeper there that's got you so fixated on this friend. And I think we have to kind of look. at those things because it's going to be really difficult to be in relationship with other people. If that's something that begins to take over, we've got to get it in check. And I sympathize with you because, you know, friendship.

stirs up so much. You're bringing so much of your personal stuff to the table and we're working it out. in the friction of friendship. But if you want healthy friendships, if you want to be deeply known and you wanna deeply know others, you have to find a way to offer space to people to be themselves.

and trust that they still love you even if they're not around. And that can be really hard, but something to maybe work through or get support with so that you can enjoy a healthy connection. I love your perspective on this. I'm curious, as an expert and researcher on friendship, how do you foster long-term friendships with women, especially as you're moving through different phases of life? What's the research say?

Yeah, so life transitions are actually a big reason why women's friendships end. And I also believe that there are a lot more prominent... transitions in a woman's life. And it becomes difficult sometimes to stay together.

during those disruptions throughout the life cycle. So her getting married and then getting really, really involved with that spouse. And now you're like, oh, what are we doing here? You know, we're not spending time together. Her having a baby and now the topic of conversation is butt paste and bottles.

And I'm not interested, right? So it can be hard to show up in those ways. I think one thing that we have to do is give ourselves grace because we've never been friends like this before. We've never had...

to be friends with you having to also have this little baby you have to keep alive at home. So the first thing to honor, okay, we've never done this. Let's get to the business of figuring it out. I also see people experience so much dissatisfaction because you're comparing your present to how it used to be. That chapter is no more or I won't return for a long time. Right. While this new season is in. And I.

feel a lot of disappointment around that. It's not like it used to be. It's not like it's used to be. Well, we know again that friendships change, but when it happens, it's really difficult to adapt. And then the last thing I would say, if you feel a transition coming on with your friendship is it's okay to say it because that takes a lot of power away from the fear. So to say to a friend like, listen, I know you're booed up now. But can we still do FaceTimes on Fridays? Because I miss you.

And I don't see you like I used to. And I think that feels scary because it's more vulnerable. It's easier to say, oh, got a man and forgot all about me. It's harder to say, I really miss you and I'm happy for you. I love how happy he makes you, but I miss us. What can we do about that? And it kind of takes the power out of the fear of what happens next with us during this transition.

One of the things that I love that you've said a couple times is, first of all, you normalize how common it is to not have a, quote, best friend, but to encourage us all to look to the greater group. and the collective to provide all the different things we need from friendship to support to... someone to talk about global warming, whatever, the issues you care about, somebody to have fun with, that you don't just rely on one person.

And one thing I'd love to know is how can someone feel closeness to a new female friend? Well, the first thing I'm going to say is look at those three affinities of female friendship. How can you introduce those from the very beginning? How can I highlight our similarities and play into that? How can I offer tangible demonstrations of support?

How can I make it safe here for us to share with one another? Those are things that help us to feel close in those friendships. And then again, and I know this continues to be a theme in what I'm saying is you can announce it. we've got to get permission to announce it. You can say to a friend, I love getting to know more and more about you. Or like every time we get together, I'm learning more about you and I'm loving it. I'm loving getting to know you.

I mean, sometimes saying it up front helps the other person to buy in because so often we wonder, Do they like me? Do they not? Like, are they as invested as I am? So let me remove the mystery. I really enjoy you. Do you want to do this more often? And sometimes making it plain relieves that pressure. the mystery, the game playing. I initiated last time, but is that too much? There's no time for that.

So I think even explicitly expressing to somebody, I'm so excited to get to know you more. I'm always learning a little something every time we get together. I think that sometimes can expedite the process of being close friends. You also had interesting research about how women's friendships in particular when you're younger are a huge predictor. for how your relationship with your significant other is going to play out. Can you say more about that?

Yeah, so we tend to put friendship into the margins of our lives and see it as like this extra recreational thing that's non-essential. But it really is. And it has benefits that we might not even suspect. And there is a study that found that the number one predictor of the success of your romantic adult relationship

is how well you did with your same-sex friends in adolescence. Really? Likely because things do tend to be segregated by gender in school. You know, girls go over here, boys go over here. I'm mostly with girls, you know, in school, in these different groups and in class. that's where I'm developing social skills

I'm learning to negotiate. I'm learning how to communicate. How do I show up as a friend? I'm learning that here. So if I struggled with that, in these formative years, it's likely that those same skills that I need to have a successful romantic relationship, some of that stuff's going to travel with me. So it's an important time to figure out with other women when we're young, how do we do this? Because there are surprising ways that it impacts everything else.

For those of us that look back on those years and go, oh God. I was terrible at this. I was the jealous, competitive, one-upper, gossipy. We can change, right? I'm living proof, hey, that you can. And I mean, the same way we get all these books to be a better parent. to be a better wife, like that's awesome. this can be learned too. And this is what I mean about giving people more optimism. There's something where we feel like, Can't I get this right? But we aren't.

We're learning about how to show up as a better friend because we feel like it should be something that's just natural. And the extent of the conversation at one period about friendship is, you either have friends or you don't. And if you don't, what's wrong with you? There's so much more to that conversation.

So yes, get the book around how to be a better friend or to get over your anxious attachment so you can enjoy healthier relationships. Yeah, figure that out, especially in adulthood. Because the scripts that worked for you in friendship at 18 and can work at 45. At some point, I have to sit down and get to the business of figuring out, how do I do this? How do I make time for friends with my other obligations?

How do I release my anxiousness? Because that's been a theme in my friendships and it hasn't gone well. How do I set boundaries without feeling like an awful person?

We've got to get to the business of figuring that out to enjoy the kind of connections that we're dreaming about. What I love about your book, Fighting for Our Friendships, is that you not only go straight at this, and you unpack all the things that we, or I'll speak for myself, I got profoundly wrong about navigating female friendships, it also explains what's missing when you start to feel conflict. and frustration. And so I love the example that you give in your book, and it's on page 110.

And you need to send this episode and conversation and Danielle's brilliance to every person in your life that is getting married right now. Because let me read this to you. You're talking about this sort of mismatch where you think the friendship is more important than it is to the other person. I see this play out most often in bridal parties. several brides-to-be or would-be maids of honor.

come to me for the sensitive dilemma of bridal party selection. There's tension when one friend assumes she'll be asked to be a bridesmaid, but realizes the bride has no intention of asking her. Brides come to me with tearful pleas to help them figure out how do I choose and then how do I deliver the news to those who won't be included?

When somebody has a wedding, why is there so much conflict and drama inside people's friend groups? Having a bridal party is probably the only time, aside from the MySpace Top 8, where you have to... put your hierarchy on display. So if I'm going through our friendship, assuming that we're on the same level. And I'm not chosen as a bridesmaid. I'm not chosen as the maid of honor. And here I am thinking we're best friends.

For a lot of women, they do say it's hard for them to recover after that with that new information. that we're not as close as I thought we were. Because I've been going around thinking that we see each other the same. And then when you have to make a public declaration of your hierarchy of friends, I'm not up there, it can be really hard to digest.

Well, the first is to ask yourself about the history and the evidence you have in that friendship. Does she show up? Is she attentive? If I need support, she's there. And can I be okay with that? Some women can't. And some will say, you know what? She's a good friend. We're good friends to each other. I can find a way to be okay with this, right? So looking at what does the friendship offer me, even though I might not be her top tier friend.

And to the woman who has to make these bridal party selections and feels really nervous about it. To have those conversations in a way that still offers reassurance to the friends who aren't involved, because the number one question they're going to have is, am I more invested than you? Do I not matter? Do you not care? that's going to be at the heart of that rejection that they experience.

So as much as I can tenderly assure you that this is totally a logistical thing and it has nothing to do with me and you, the better, because those are the things we're going to be questioning after you make that selection. Gotcha. And by logistical, how do you not...

Because literally you're like, well, look, my husband only has like two friends. So I can't have 17 of you standing there. My sister will kill me if it's not just her. Truly. Like I know how expensive this is. You've been in 17 weddings this summer. I've just decided to keep the parietal party small. 100%.

But providing that more aerial view of the decisions you have to make and the things you're accounting for can help people to understand a little bit and to depersonalize a little bit if you can give them that overview. So I've seen it be helpful in that way. Or you can scratch the bridal party altogether, which I see more and more people leaning toward because of the other things that it brings into the friendship.

You also shared research in your book that I've never seen before that women replace about half of their friends every seven years. Yeah, so men and women. Yeah, there's research that finds that we replace half of our friends every seven years. I hope that that... makes people feel a little less ashamed if they have friendships that don't work out. Because what that says to me is that there's this natural pruning that happens throughout your life.

I also hope that that has people release any shame around needing to make new friends. Because I hear people say, I'm out here making friends at 42. I should have had all my friends from high school. Really? Because I know some of the friends I had in high school, it would not be appropriate for us to still. be friends, it wouldn't make sense to where I am right now or the values I have right now. And so if we are dropping or shedding new friends every seven years,

That means we need to be picking up new ones because what does that churn rate look like? How am I positioning myself to invite new friendships into my life? So I hope it shows us that we will always be having to make new friends. When I hear that research, I was so encouraged because I'm like, oh my gosh, it's a sign you're growing.

Yeah. That's a sign that you're like changing and so are the people in your life and that's cool. Yeah. And I love that visual that has been so widely shared. I have no idea who to credit for this of the fact that there are three. types of friendships. Just think of a huge tree and you're the tree and there will be tens of thousands of leaves that sprout in different seasons and then wither and fall off. And there are branches that are very strong that are there through the...

standing of time, but some will break due to the weather and the pruning. And then there are the deep, deep roots that you often don't see, but you know are there if you need them that keep you grounded and strong. Every one of those aspects of friendship is critical because even the leaves that are only there for the season, these are your sorority sisters or your work friends or the people that you were a young mom with.

friends that you were on a soccer team with in high school, that they were there for a season. And while they were there, they absorbed the sunlight and they gave you energy and they were part of what made you, you. And then the season changes in your life. And those friendships wither and fall to the ground. That doesn't mean they weren't wonderful. It doesn't mean actually that they're not still there with you in spirit.

but that you are growing, which means new leaves are going to come. Yeah. New branches are going to grow. And those roots that are meant to be there are going to be strong. even when they're not right in front of your face. I mean, some of my most favorite people. I'm so mad at them because they don't live anywhere near me. And what I'm also realizing is maybe that's a good thing because I'm a very deep person.

And if I live next to you, I'd be up in your grill all the time. You'd probably think I was clingy and possessive and annoying. So it's probably better I only see you once a quarter. Yeah. Danielle, you've shared so much with us. I cannot wait for... the person listening to really take all this wisdom and research and shift how they're showing up and shift how they're thinking about friends, both past and present and future.

see how many women they share this with in their lives and young women. If there's just one thing from absolutely everything you shared with us that you would love for the person who is listening to do. What would it be? I want them to consider that the source...

of your hurting could also be the source of your healing. And I know that there is a lot of hurt that's probably happened with other women. And sometimes we close ourself off to female friendships because of that. But allowing ourselves. to invite the love of other women helps to do some of that healing, to give ourselves the chance to see that women are tender and supportive and gracious and strong.

I think helps to start to be an overlay and starts to gradually erase some of the hurt we have from before. But the restoration lies in the courage to position ourselves to try again. I love that. So Danielle, what are your parting words? I think this conversation is important for the person who finds themselves about to grow cold or cynical to friendship itself, to their personal future.

because they can't make sense of something right now, or because they're starting to feel hopeless. And I'm hoping that this equips them with language to describe what's going on and with hope for the future. because it should be exciting to know that you could meet your best friend in the next five.

10, 15, 20 years. It could be exciting to know that you might have several best friends over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. But as soon as we resign ourselves to believing that how it is right now is how it will always be, then we've lost. And so I think maintaining that hope is really, really important.

So much of the conversation we have around friendship is about this insulated relationship, just me and you. And we need that. We need close friendships. But when we think about the fabric of society, it starts with me and you. It starts with me being open to sharing with you, having positive experiences with you. And then you go and share that with somebody else. It's a ripple effect, right?

It starts with me being supportive of you and you now having a deeper belief in yourself because I affirmed you and spoke words of life into you as your friend. That is literally what fuels society and keeps us trusting one another and having goodwill toward one another. But it starts right here. And so I get really sad when I hear people...

who are discouraged about friendship and start to close themselves off. Because when we talk about from an aerial view, needing more trust in community from a larger perspective, it starts right here. And so I feel like if we want a healthier, more hopeful future as a society, it starts with me being open to friendships, personal friendships today. And I would love for us to keep making that connection.

I can see the emotion when you talk about that. And I know I feel it. I know the person listening to this feels that fear. of growing isolation and discouragement in people's hearts. And what I know is that women have the ability to change anything. And we cannot allow our hearts to grow cold. And this is a moment where... We need to turn toward each other and rely on each other and support each other. And what I love about everything that you have done in your work and in this book, Danielle.

is that I truly understand and feel more compassionate about the little me who struggled with friendship. I feel understanding and compassionate as a mother to daughters. about how difficult it is, but how it doesn't have to be. And your framework offers us a way to see what's happening. Through the lens of both this is why female friendships are so unbelievably powerful and rich and deep and important. And it's also why they can feel so fraught with confusing and hurtful behavior. Yeah.

And everything that you shared, which is so amazing, is it comes through a lens of both understanding, matter-of-fact, compassion, and empowerment. It is fully within your power as you listen to this to create better friendship.

It's fully within your power to leave the door open. It's fully within your power to lean toward the people that disappoint you or upset you or that trigger jealousy or lack in you and actually talk about it. That the connection... that you deserve and that society needs, that happens one day. person at a time is something that you can create. And now that you've shared all this with us, we can. And so thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

for hopping on a plane for being here today for doing this research and for sharing it with me and with the person listening you truly made a huge difference thank you for having me of course Thank you for making the time to listen to this. Thank you for sharing this with your sisters, your nieces, your daughters, your female friends. And how amazing is it to know that one of the most important things that creates a meaningful life, which are...

relationships you have the ability to create better ones and I hope you do and in case no one else tells you I wanted to tell you that I love you I'm proud of you for listening or watching this and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life

relationships based on the research are what create a better life and meaning in your life. So take everything that you just devoured and learned and go apply it. Alrighty, I'll be waiting for you in the very next episode to welcome you in. moment you hit play. I'll see you there. Let's see how the flight patterns go today.

Oh, there's another plane. Okay, here we go. They must have changed the flight patterns. See, I warned you about this. Listen, we listen and we don't judge. Whatever you're into. You've got range. Trace, what am I supposed to do? What's wrong with my hair? the back of it i think where you had the i have a hump You know what else I need is I got to clean my glasses. I literally look like I sat on them. I don't know what is on there. I am a hot mess.

today i see i can't i've got a hump what's happening cameron's like i got a hump cameron thank you You're a good friend. Okay, now I got this thing stuck in my... No, because you have more volume in your bangs today. Okay, I put my rollers in, girl. Let me take a sip of water since I just feel gravelly. Yeah, I burped.

That's why I don't eat eggs, Cameron, typically in the morning. Okay. We thought we needed more stamina today, but we were wrong. Interesting facts about how women... Oh, my Lord. Sorry, guys. Okay. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.

I'm just your friend, I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.