Welcome back to The Look and Sound of Leadership, an ongoing series of executive coaching tips designed to help you be perceived in the workplace the way you want to be perceived. I'm Tom Henschel, your executive coach, and today we're talking about... conquering, people-pleasing. Noah was pissed at a co-worker named George. At least, that's where he started his story.
I've told you about him, Tom, he said. All flash, no substance. Well, he and I were in a client meeting, and it was like he thought he was going to charm their business out of them. He hadn't done any homework. I couldn't believe it. What happened, I asked. Well, I couldn't save his part of the presentation, but mine was buttoned up. Well, mine always are. You know me, Tom. I always want an A. Which is what infuriates me about George. He doesn't seem to care.
Have you talked to him about this, I asked? Yeah. Well, that's what's really pissing me off. Me. He and I had carpooled. So we were together the whole way back to the office. But did I say anything? No. Did I tell him I was worried about the client? No. Did I tell him how upset I was? No. It was all pouring through my head, but I didn't say anything. He paused. I waited. He said, This is what we've been talking about, right? The people pleaser in me that just can't speak up.
I must not think very highly of myself. How do you mean, I asked. Well, I have all these thoughts, all these things I want to say, but I don't say any of them. If I really thought they were any good, I'd say them, right? Oh, I said, you think your ideas aren't... Passing some test? That they're not good enough to be spoken? I don't know. Maybe. Would that make sense? Well, it would, sure. I'd just been thinking differently.
I hadn't been connecting your not speaking up to a low self-esteem issue. I was connecting it to that sense of insecurity you've talked about. He said, well, isn't insecurity a form of low self-esteem? I don't think so, I said. I think people with low self-esteem feel they are the problem. I'm not worthy of being liked. But the insecurity you've talked about sounded different to me, more like... I hope they like me. It felt different, kind of optimistic.
Well, that's certainly there, he said. I do hope people like me. That's what freezes me up. I don't want to upset people, right? Not even freaking featherweight George. And he deserves to be upset. Tell me more about what happened, I said. So there you are in the car. By the way, who's driving? He was. Okay, so there you are in the passenger seat. All these thoughts are flying around in your head. What are the thoughts saying?
A lot, he said. They're listing all the things that went wrong. All his history of skating on his charm. But I'm not his boss. Is it my place to say anything? But am I serving the client or the agency if I don't tell him? The voices are arguing every side. I asked, and you've been there before? These competing ideas swirling around each other? Are you kidding? I have been doing that since I was a kid. Do you remember?
I mentioned to you that I think my dad is autistic. Looking back, all his fits and tantrums line up perfectly with autism. But at the time, to me and my sisters, it was just scary as hell. We did. whatever we could to keep him from being scary. We were the biggest bunch of people pleasers you have ever seen. So all those thoughts pouring through my head, that was survival. I said, so being a people pleaser feels like family.
He laughed. Oh, does it ever? We all have it. It's hilarious now. We're adults. Us trying to pick a restaurant? Oh, my gosh. It could be a half-hour sitcom. No one will make a decision. Then he said, When I do it with my sisters, It's kind of sweet, but when I do it with someone like George, put his needs before mine, it pisses me off. I don't want to keep doing it, but I don't know what to do instead. Do you have tools around people-pleasing? I said, well...
I can tell you what made a difference for me. I used to be a world-class people pleaser, and now I'm not. I can think of two things that made a difference for me. That'd be great, he said. I said, one is a way of thinking. And one is a behavior. Okay, he said, organizing his mental folders. I said, the way of thinking is this. There is a voice inside me. that knows things. This voice knows what I want, what I really want, not what I say I want.
If I want to be able to speak my wants, I need to listen to that voice. I need to let it speak. But so far, I probably haven't, because it might not please people. But this way of thinking says that is the job. Your job in this way of thinking is to pay attention to the voice that names your wants. Focus on it. Try and hear what it's telling you. In full understanding, he said, which...
could feel so selfish, right? How dare you put your needs first? Yes, I agreed. It is hard to put your needs first. It means your ideas count. Your opinions matter. That's hard for people pleasers. He said, so this way of thinking you're talking about starts with the premise that the voice is there, and then my job is to learn how to dial into it. That's it exactly, I said. Well, how would I know if it happened, he asked.
Well, that's a good question, I answered. Watch for changes, I guess. I know one thing that really changed for me when I could actually hear that voice of mine. Conflict. Conflict used to make me so anxious, and now when I'm in a conflict situation, I ask myself that question, what do I really want in this situation?
I dial into that voice and listen to my wants. That voice becomes my guide, so the conflict is pretty easy. I know what I want, and I'm either going to get it or I'm not. My feelings might be hurt, or I might be disappointed, but I don't feel diminished. I don't shrink because I didn't get what I want. There's another want right behind that one. So I just ask the question again, what do I really want in this situation? And I keep on plugging away. I could see him thinking.
He said, I don't know if that question would help me. I overthink things so badly. I can argue an idea is brilliant one second and stupid the next. It happens with people, too. I get influenced by different people on different sides of a situation. I can make a case for any of them. It's exhausting. But what's the case for you, I asked. What happens when you focus on your case instead of theirs?
He said, well, that would be asking that question, right? What do I really want? I don't know what happens. I've never done it. I'll try it. I'll let you know. And thanks. But there was something else too, right? Right, I said, a second thing that helped me shed my people-pleasing. Yes, this one is a behavior. At least that's how I thought of it. It is the act of saying no. He said, really?
are you serious my wife pushed me so hard about saying no with the girls i knew she was right but man it's hard it's hard having little girls be mad at you But I understand why saying no sometimes is the right thing to do, so now I do it pretty easily most of the time. My girls are teenagers now, so it's more complicated, but saying no is still at the heart of it. I asked, does it feel like the opposite of people-pleasing?
Maybe. I don't know. But I'm sure not the people pleaser with my girls anymore. Well, it's not 100% true, but no, mostly I can hold my position with them. Good for you, Noah. So here's a question. If you can say no with your daughters and not collapse into people-pleasing, what stops you from saying no with someone like George? He replied, other than a basic fear of conflict, I don't really know. Do you?
I said, well, fear of conflict is a good enough reason not to confront George in the car. I would understand that. Well, maybe that's it, he shrugged. So what do I do here? Do you have something I could try? I said, yeah, this second idea. Practice saying no. Build your strength a little at a time. You know, I saw a guy do it not that long ago. Oh, this poor guy. He never said no to anything. He was so overworked and out of balance. And then one day he decided.
He was not going to do any email before 9 in the morning. He said no. And it felt like a big no to him. And you know what he found out? No one cared. His little experiment worked. And he was like, whoa. Maybe I could say no to more things. And the people pleaser in him relaxed from saying no to something small. He smiled and said, I did something sort of like that a couple of weeks ago. I declined a meeting and I was expecting blowback, but...
Nothing happened. I nodded and then said, which doesn't mean no one noticed. Oh, thanks, he said. Are you saying I should have been a people pleaser and shown up? No. I'm saying that when we start saying no... People often notice. I'm not saying they'd be angry. They might say it's about time. I don't know. But if you change how you show up, I hope people do notice.
Noah struggled to hear his inner voice. He was not always sure what he really wanted. But he found himself able to say no to a lot of things which to him felt like the look and sound of leadership. In this part of the show, I want to tell two stories. Both stories are framed in that first way of thinking that I talked about to Noah. Listen to the voice inside you that knows what you really want.
As people pleasers, we tend to ignore that voice. We listen to the voice that is focused on others. What will make them happy? What will make them like me? What will keep me out of trouble? That voice. that's all focused on others, keeps us from hearing the voice that speaks our wants. Learning to hear that voice, the one that's focused on us, that's what both these stories are about. The first story happened back when I was making my living as an actor.
And this was back in the early 80s. And in those days, I was very much a people pleaser. And I was just beginning to have an awareness that my people pleasing was limiting my career. Now, I knew there was an obstacle in front of me. I had no tools to work with.
To put it in the words of the framework, I could not hear that voice inside me that could tell me what I really wanted. So it's 1984. It is summer. It is San Diego, California. I am one of the actors in residence at the Old Globe Theater, one of the... premier Shakespeare festivals in the country. And one of the other actors in the company is G.W. Bailey. G.W. G.W. Bailey from Lubbock, Texas.
So you can go look GW up, and I am guessing you will recognize his face. He's one of those guys you've seen a thousand times. I love GW for a couple reasons. One is he is just really funny. And another is the GW... doesn't care about the rules. GW just calls him as he sees him. And because I was a people pleaser, you know, I lived with a lot of caution in my life, but there was GW and he was so full of bravado and it was so attractive to me.
I loved being with GW. I always felt a bit like the younger brother, but it was good. It was like being stretched, and I liked being stretched. So one day after the summer, when we're both back in L.A., GW invites me to go fishing with him. And I remember... Two feelings flashing through me, desire and terror. And the desire was the puppy part of me, right? Like, oh, I got picked. He likes me. He really likes me. It was validation. I wanted to bask in that.
And the terror came from knowing that this was going to be just the two of us. And there was going to be a lot of time to fill. And this is where my people pleasing kicked in. One of the rules that I learned in my family was that we, each one of us, is responsible for the mood of the people around us. We are the hosts. We need to make people comfortable. No matter where you are, your job...
is to be a good host. Anticipate the needs of others. So when GW invites me fishing, I'm thinking to myself, I'm going to have to be pretty freaking entertaining. And that's what I thought my job was that day. So I remember getting in the truck. and chattering and it was pretty much back and forth and cracking jokes and all good. And then we're on the water and we're in a boat and he's in the front, facing the front and I'm behind.
And I'm still chattering. And I remember, in that voice of his, he didn't even turn around, I just heard him say, Henschel, silence. And I remember... Being washed with shame. I had made him angry. I had failed in my job as host. I'd spoiled the party. Shame on me. But I also felt this weird disorientation.
GW had just taken away my purpose, right? I was supposed to be entertaining. If I wasn't going to be entertaining, what was I going to be? I'm a people pleaser. But GW didn't want my people pleasing. So what am I left with? Being alone with myself in the presence of another person, I did not have much practice with that. Things inside my head were pretty noisy. I could not hear the voice inside me.
I did not know what I wanted that day in the boat on the water. I had no idea how to be with myself in that situation. And that day, that sense of being lost made an impression on me. As I conquered my people-pleasing nature, I would look back on that day as a measure of how far I had come. What I realized, looking back at myself in that boat, was that I had believed what I had been taught.
I had believed it was possible for me to be responsible for GW's feelings. I had believed that I needed to make him comfortable in his boat on his fishing trip. I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but I believed that. And then I learned a new belief. And the new belief says, you are not responsible for other people's feelings. I was not responsible for GW's feelings in that boat, even though I thought I was. And I think about it, you know, how many times do we like...
pitch our voice a little higher because we want to be more likable. Or we don't say what we're thinking because we don't want to upset people. We edit our behavior because we believe we can manage people's reactions. But here's another new belief. You can't make anyone happy. Let me say it this way. I can't make you happy.
I can't make you anything. I can't make you angry. I can't make you feel bad. I can't make you ashamed. I can't make you love me. It is not possible for me to create an emotion in you. Your emotions are yours. And it circles right back to the first idea, right? You are not responsible for other people's feelings. I'm not saying people don't respond to what you do. They do, but not necessarily in the way you want them to. You can't make them.
respond in a particular way. But that is not what most of us learned growing up. Most of us learned that Mommy is upset because of us, or Daddy is angry because of us. We're taught that we are responsible for making the grown-ups feel the way they feel, but it's not true. Learning to believe that other people's feelings were not... my responsibility was a major step in conquering my people-pleasing. Having said that, my people-pleasing instincts are not dead by any means.
The second story I want to tell you is about how deeply ingrained those people-pleasing impulses are in me. I will tell you that right after this month's gratitude. Gratitude this month to Tiona Johnson. I thanked Tiona in an episode last year after she invited me to work with her team at an offsite in New York.
Tiona invited me back to work with her team again. They are growing in numbers, and they are growing in skills, and it was great to be with them this time in the city of the Old Globe Theater, San Diego, California. It was a pleasure. Thanks, Tiona. Thank you this month to Neha Singh. Neha has a great story. She lives in Bengaluru, India. She was a sales director for a big company. She experienced a layoff, and she thought to herself, great, now I'm going to have all this time.
to do all that leadership development that I couldn't do before. One of the things that she has done on her journey is to create a podcast called Bridge to Leadership, and she is exploring ideas about leadership. And she had me on as a guest. And we talked about what it means to be disruptive in the workplace, how to manage that, how to manage former peers. It was a great conversation. One of the things I hope you will listen for is what a great listener Neha is.
She listened to me at one point from, I talked for four or five minutes, and then she did an amazing summary. It was such a rare skill. It's so impressive. Anyway, thanks to Nia for creating a community that focuses on what leadership means in the real world. Thanks for having me on your show, Bridge to Leadership. Link is in the show notes.
Gratitude to those of you who reach out to explore coaching. I am so glad to talk with you. Thank you so much. And as always, thank you to people who post reviews. You are the best. I cannot thank you enough. This month from Australia, Elkie Cora. In Canada, Marlo Wu. From here in the U.S., H.R. Ohio, Louis, YF68, Weathered25, and then three people, all of whom have posted before, J.D. Sudi. A. McGuire, and my friend Dave Stachowiak, host of Coaching for Leaders. Thanks, Dave.
And then there was one last person in the U.S., BrownsFan421, who ended their comment saying, I would love to get the list of the book recommendations. Thanks, BrownsFan421. Let me know how to get in touch with you. There's two ways you can make it happen. Hit the link in the show notes. Send me an email. That way I'll have your address. I'll know where to send it back.
Or you can grab them off the website. That resource with all our other tools, it's all on the Essential Communications website. It's EssentialCom.com. EssentialCom with two Ms.com. Click the Essential Tools tab. Take whatever you like. Or just hit the link in the show notes. All of that is by way of saying thank you, Tiona, Niha, everyone who posted. Thank you all. Okay, story number two. So remember, the framework for the story...
is learning to listen to the voice inside you as a way of conquering your people-pleasing. So this story took place only a year ago, a long time since I was in that boat with GW. This time, I was in New Zealand with my daughter, Julia, and her fiancé, Ricky. Ricky and Julia are adventure travelers. And when they travel, they take a lot of gear with them because they're always making content. You know, they're both athletes. He was in Cirque du Soleil. She does Cirque du Soleil.
They go to gorgeous places. They create stunning pictures doing amazing things with their bodies. On this trip, they had their drone with them. And it was my first chance to see people interact with the drone. A lot of people were curious about it. They would... watch it, they would ask questions about it. A lot of people clearly did not like it. They didn't like the sound of it, they didn't like something flying near them, and they didn't know what was being photographed.
So throughout the trip, I watched Julia and Ricky handle this just easily. They're very natural with it. It's all great. And for me, I'm just hanging back. You know, I'm an extra pair of hands. I'm used to being on a set. I know how to be helpful when there's a shoot going on. So great.
We have slept one night at a beautiful camp that is on the edge of a breathtaking little bay. The plan is we're going to get up early in the morning, we're going to shoot in the morning light, we're going to hit the road. So, it's morning. Ricky's out in the bay. He's standing on a rock. It's jutting out of the water. He's going to do some flips and dives. Julia is at the edge of the water, and she's flying the drone.
So I'm just hanging out watching and I hear a guy come up behind me and I turn around and this guy is almost on me and he's taller than I am. He's wearing aviator glasses. Can't see his eyes. I know that his wife is kind of a step or two behind him. I know they're covered with, you know, all the beach stuff, chairs and towels and bags. I look at his face. His lips look like they are made out of stone.
And he says, in an Australian accent, he says, I don't like that drone. Didn't come down here to have my picture taken. He is so over-the-top serious that... I made a joke. I was like, hey, no worries. We've got some waivers over there for you to sign. And I could feel this rage come off him. I think he thought he was going to hit me. I for sure thought he was going to hit me. And he just said, I'm serious. And I just felt myself kind of melt.
I was just like, I am so sorry. I did not mean to make light. And he didn't back off. He was like, you made a joke of it, and I'm not joking. And I just stepped away. I said, I understand. And I let the two of them go by me. And my heart was racing. I really, this guy was going to hit me. So I look over at Julia. She hasn't seen any of it. Her back is to me. She's focused on the drone, which is, you know, she's looking at the controls in her hands.
And I go over to her and I say real quietly, you know, there's a guy over there who is worried he's going to be on camera and he's super pissed off. And without missing a beat, you know, like she had said this a thousand times, she said, we're not breaking any rules. And it stopped me. I realized I had been totally focused on calming him down as if I were responsible for his feelings.
My people-pleasing voice had completely taken over. But Julia's voice was completely focused on her and what she wanted. She wasn't taking one ounce of responsibility for the fact that this Aussie guy was pissed off. It had nothing to do with her. And it struck me how strongly my people-pleasing had kicked in. You know, it was a long time since I had been that guy in that boat.
I stood on the beach and I asked myself that question. What do you want in this situation? And I heard two answers. I wanted to make things better for that man if I could. And I wanted to be the best advocate for Ricky and Julia that I could be. And at that point, I understood I couldn't take away that guy's feelings, but I could express concern about his feelings.
And so I asked Julie, I said, were people on the beach ever in her shots? And she said, no, we're not interested in him. You know, he can come look at the feet if he's worried about it. And I went over to the guy. And I told him, I said, look, you'll never be on camera. If you're concerned, you can go look in monitor. And he was like, whatever. I left that exchange, that final exchange, feeling complete.
You know, if he wanted to stay upset, that was fine. That's his choice. We were not responsible if he wanted to have a crappy day. We were having an amazing day. And I did not give it another thought. The last part of that story is comforting to me. I took an action that might appear to be people-pleasing, right? Going to the guy, telling him everything was going to be okay. But it felt so different from when I had gone to Julia and said, ooh, there's a guy that's pissed over there.
That last exchange was intentional. I had focused on my wants, not his. I had listened to my voice. And addressing his concerns... was something I wanted to do. I could be kind and not be a people pleaser. That was comforting. It was all about... Which voice I was listening to. Was I listening to the voice that's tuned to him and his needs? Or was I listening to my voice and hearing my needs? You know something I love about that story? That Julia was my teacher.
My daughter woke me up out of my people-pleasing, so go Julia. People-pleasing, it is hard to conquer. If you want more ideas about conquering people-pleasing and about finding your voice, look in the podcast archive under... Three categories, for women, managing yourself, and self-talk. And if you want to grow more skills to help you with people-pleasing, five episodes that you might listen to are, listen to the theme here, boundaries.
The conflict conversation, holding boundaries, how to set boundaries. Think there's a theme here? Yes. If you want to conquer people-pleasing, you need to learn about boundaries. And then the fifth episode is speaking your truth. This episode has a really powerful story about can I make you happy? It is really worth listening to. All the links are in the show notes, and there's also a link to email me and be in touch. I love hearing from you all. Thank you.
All right, that's it for me. Until next time, I'm Tom Henschel. Thanks so much for listening.